15th century France military-nobility complex
November 11, 2008 7:54 AM Subscribe
I'd appreciate help with some terms from 14-16c (apx) France. The translations don't tell me about the social hierarchy or give any context. Thanks for any help you can give here. Or point me to an English-language explanation. Here goes: guidon, marechal, chevalier, seigneur, ecuyer. licencie en droit, chatellenie. sieur, chambellan, sire, noble homme. Sorry for lack of accents.
Someone with more french will no doubt come after me, but here goes -
guidon - standard bearer
marechal - marshall, sort of like a modern day general
chevalier - knight
seigneur - lord in a general sense, like the guy knights would swear fealty to.
ecuyer - squire, the guy that carries the knight's standard
I'm fuzzy on the next two - I think it has to do with the right to have an army and lands, but I'm probably wrong.
sieur - sir, I've only ever seen it as a courtesy title
chambellan - chamberlin, like the guy that holds the king's waterbowl when he's washing.
Sire - I think this is the same in english
noble homme - nobleman, any guy with a title.
It's been a while since I read any French history, so any errors are simply my memory giving out. From what I remember, most of the positions in the French army have similar analogues to the English.
posted by fiercekitten at 8:44 AM on November 11, 2008
guidon - standard bearer
marechal - marshall, sort of like a modern day general
chevalier - knight
seigneur - lord in a general sense, like the guy knights would swear fealty to.
ecuyer - squire, the guy that carries the knight's standard
I'm fuzzy on the next two - I think it has to do with the right to have an army and lands, but I'm probably wrong.
sieur - sir, I've only ever seen it as a courtesy title
chambellan - chamberlin, like the guy that holds the king's waterbowl when he's washing.
Sire - I think this is the same in english
noble homme - nobleman, any guy with a title.
It's been a while since I read any French history, so any errors are simply my memory giving out. From what I remember, most of the positions in the French army have similar analogues to the English.
posted by fiercekitten at 8:44 AM on November 11, 2008
Looks like fiercekitten's got it.
Chatellenie - castellan, commander of a castle
posted by Ctrl_Alt_ep at 8:59 AM on November 11, 2008
Chatellenie - castellan, commander of a castle
posted by Ctrl_Alt_ep at 8:59 AM on November 11, 2008
Response by poster: Two good answers right off the bat! Thank you. I've been reading about some manor houses we visited in Normandy. Now that I know how comparatively lowly an ecuyer is, can you help me understand how an ecuyer would be in a position to build a manor house? The seigneur, chevalier, and marechal I can understand; they're powerful and probably rich.
posted by sevenstars at 9:02 AM on November 11, 2008
posted by sevenstars at 9:02 AM on November 11, 2008
According to the TLF, "Écuyer" was also used as an honorific title for people holding high offices.
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 9:18 AM on November 11, 2008
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 9:18 AM on November 11, 2008
A Quebecois friend informs me that "licencié en droit" is a law degree.
posted by sonic meat machine at 9:48 AM on November 11, 2008
posted by sonic meat machine at 9:48 AM on November 11, 2008
If you're lucky enough to be the standard bearer for the king, I think you could build anything.
posted by fiercekitten at 10:12 AM on November 11, 2008
posted by fiercekitten at 10:12 AM on November 11, 2008
Squire, the English equivalent of écuyer, started off as a sort of apprentice knight / standard bearer / armor polisher, but from the 17th (? maybe 18th) on mostly meant a local landowner of good breeding without any other title. Looks like the same thing happened with the French title.
posted by fidelity at 10:50 AM on November 11, 2008
posted by fidelity at 10:50 AM on November 11, 2008
The big problems with the meanings behind historic titles and what they mean iis that they changed over time and didn't exactly define your income.
Early on the king had a sword and a nice hat (so he looked kind of impressive) but from our modern point of view we wouldn't see that much difference between his standard of living and the dung cart boy's. Basically, there was little in the way of skilled labor and surplus anything to create things we would call luxuries.
Once things like the horse collar and the three field system became all the rage and the amount of surplus went up, then some of the people who had been farming like their lives depended on it (because the did) started taking up trades and the quality of available goods went up fast. As a result, if you were of the nobility, your standard of living went up fast. And if you were in a position to produce the things that the nobility wanted.... There were plenty of cases where the child of a wealthy tradesman married the child of a titled, but not exactly rolling in money, nobleman. (Consider William Snawsell of York.)
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 12:36 PM on November 11, 2008
Early on the king had a sword and a nice hat (so he looked kind of impressive) but from our modern point of view we wouldn't see that much difference between his standard of living and the dung cart boy's. Basically, there was little in the way of skilled labor and surplus anything to create things we would call luxuries.
Once things like the horse collar and the three field system became all the rage and the amount of surplus went up, then some of the people who had been farming like their lives depended on it (because the did) started taking up trades and the quality of available goods went up fast. As a result, if you were of the nobility, your standard of living went up fast. And if you were in a position to produce the things that the nobility wanted.... There were plenty of cases where the child of a wealthy tradesman married the child of a titled, but not exactly rolling in money, nobleman. (Consider William Snawsell of York.)
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 12:36 PM on November 11, 2008
This site looks interesting (YMMV) -
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/
I wish I remembered my history better, this is during the wars of religion.. and what you're going to find is the status of the nobility will change around the end of the 16th century and during the 17th when you'll see this divide into the noblesse de robe and noblesse de l'épee. So you couldn't take definitions from the 17th century onward and apply them to the time period in which you're interested.
Maybe start by finding a copy of Pierre Nora Realms of Memory, the first volume, about the state, I think an essay or two in that may give a good overview, it is an excellent resource. If you don't read French it might be hard to find a lot of precise source material..
posted by citron at 8:55 PM on November 11, 2008
http://www.heraldica.org/topics/france/
I wish I remembered my history better, this is during the wars of religion.. and what you're going to find is the status of the nobility will change around the end of the 16th century and during the 17th when you'll see this divide into the noblesse de robe and noblesse de l'épee. So you couldn't take definitions from the 17th century onward and apply them to the time period in which you're interested.
Maybe start by finding a copy of Pierre Nora Realms of Memory, the first volume, about the state, I think an essay or two in that may give a good overview, it is an excellent resource. If you don't read French it might be hard to find a lot of precise source material..
posted by citron at 8:55 PM on November 11, 2008
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posted by Monday, stony Monday at 8:19 AM on November 11, 2008