How can I help my son get laid?
September 4, 2008 12:07 PM   Subscribe nineteen year old son just informed me that he is president of his college's abstinence club. I think that this is a huge mistake. How can I help my son get laid and see what he is missing?

This is not a religious issue for him. Nor is he Gay (not that there's anything wrong with that). I suspect that there's more to it than what he's telling me (one of his friends thinks he might have a crush on a girl in the Abstinence club) which is that he thinks sex should be an intimate act between two people and not casual. And I don't disagree. I've been married and faithful for twenty years. And I've always tried to teach him safe sex.

But he's 19 and in college. Isn't this the time for sexual experimentation? To get jiggy with it and all that?
So how can I help him have sex?
posted by anonymous to Human Relations (61 answers total) 16 users marked this as a favorite

posted by rhizome at 12:12 PM on September 4, 2008 [57 favorites]

Oh, for heaven's sake. Let him do what he wants. To be brutally honest, you've probably grossed him out enough by talking to him about how great all the college sex he's going to be having is going to be that he's turned off the whole idea.

This is none of your business. Butt the fuck out and let him live his own life and make his own decisions.
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:13 PM on September 4, 2008 [16 favorites]

Rest easy. Research shows that those taking abstinence pledges are not statistically more likely to be virgins when they marry than those who don't. Your son's inner convictions are no match for a randy young co-ed offering up her body. Unless he's in college at BYU, he'll probably be taking the "born again virgin" pledge soon.
posted by Crotalus at 12:14 PM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

In a world were the original Abstinence club, Catholic priests can't keep it in their pants; I don't think you need to worry too much. If its a phase he'll be pulled out of it by a nice piece of trim, if not maybe that's the life style he wants to lead. If anything a kid of his age wants to do his own thing and any pressure from mom and pop will probably have the opposite influence.

Wait til spring, anyone who's ever been on a college campus during spring will know what I mean.
posted by wavering at 12:15 PM on September 4, 2008

So how can I help him have sex?

seriously? leave him alone. jesus.
posted by violetk at 12:16 PM on September 4, 2008 [3 favorites]

Your son's inner convictions are no match for a randy young co-ed offering up her body

Ick ick ick ick ick ick.

You don't know this poster's son, and neither do I.

Also, "randy young co-ed offering up her body?" How are you getting Internet access from 1928?
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:16 PM on September 4, 2008 [104 favorites]

Okay, well, I'm not going to be quite as harsh at others, but I agree that this is a choice he's made and you'd do best to just go with it. If he *is* doing it because he has a crush on a girl there then I would doubt he would stick to it/be so passionate (so to speak) about it for too terribly long. But be aware that maybe he truly believes this is what he wants, in which case, you really shouldn't be encouraging him to be 'getting jiggy with it' and experimenting sexually if he doesn't want to. And god knows it isn't hurting him or anyone else, rather quite the opposite. He isn't putting himself at risk of STIs (yes, I know you have taught him safe sex, but everyone slips up, especially in college where there is lots of booze around), he isn't putting himself at risk of getting a girl pregnant, and frankly, he won't be getting a rep of being a man whore.

Don't get me wrong, I am a late 20's woman who personally (both theoretically or in practice) believe in abstinence but I see no reason why someone can't try. Again, I'd been terribly surprised if he held to it very long. And if he does, then good for him.

basically, this really isn't something you need to be worried about. And trying to force/really encouraging him to have sex is only going to be weird and uncomfortable to him, plus insulting because you are disrespecting his beliefs.
posted by gwenlister at 12:20 PM on September 4, 2008

Sorry, I meant to say I DON'T believe in abstinence. Curse you, typos! CURSE YOUUUU!
posted by gwenlister at 12:22 PM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

Depending on what his definition of "sex" is (and what his definition of "is" is... to harken back to a certain presidential indiscretion), this could still mean that he's having a great time. Nothing like a year of oral sex, mutual masturbation, or other fun or to make a 19 year-old happy. I'd just support him and leave this alone; I can't imagine my mom trying to convince me to have some jiggy college sex (and my mom is a sex positive cool cat of a lady, as it seems you are).
posted by zpousman at 12:22 PM on September 4, 2008

I can't think of anything more horrifying for a 19 year old boy that Pops trying to help him score. Let it be.
posted by COD at 12:22 PM on September 4, 2008 [6 favorites]

A dad who is that actively interested in his son getting 'jiggy with it' is probably about a bazillion times more damaging to a young person's emerging sexual identity than an Abstinence Club.

Also, he probably really hates it when you request the DJ play Gold Digger so you can sing along and 'bust a move' at family functions.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 12:22 PM on September 4, 2008 [9 favorites]

So how can I help him have sex?

Speaking as a father, there are some things you have to let your children discover on their own. He's adult now, you don't have to guide him or teach him anymore. Just be there if he needs you.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:23 PM on September 4, 2008 [4 favorites]

Put me in the "Oh god! Don't talk about it with him if you ever want him to do it!" club. If my parent actively encouraged me to have sex I'd never be able to get it up the rest of my life.

But I would have a talk about self honesty and hypocrisy. And talk with him honestly (without your agenda) about why he joined. Not just his belifes but where they came from. If he did join to hook up with a member then feast on the delicious irony and then tell him to sign up for MeFi and ask the experienced (and not his parent) folks here for better advice on how to hook up in college.
posted by Ookseer at 12:25 PM on September 4, 2008

You've let him know about safe sex, and you've let him know you'll respect his choices.

Now start respecting them.
posted by scody at 12:27 PM on September 4, 2008 [10 favorites]

Look, sex is a REALLY, REALLY, REALLY personal thing for EVERYONE. The best way to help your son explore his own sexuality is to leave him alone to do it the way HE wants to. And for many, NOT entering into that arena until certain conditions are in place IS the way that for them feels safest and best.

Let him go at his pace and use his own rules. If he really is just into this to impress a girl, hormones will take over; and if he's NOT into this just to impress a girl, and he really IS responding to his own inner moral code, trying to get him to go against his innermost self will set him back.

Be there if he has questions, but otherwise, stay out of it. WAY out of it. "Exit the building, head out to the far parking lot and keep on walking another couple of miles" out of it.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:29 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Buh-what? Really? It would be a terrible idea to try to convince him that he should be having sex. That is an intensely personal decision and it's just going to freak him out if you try to convince him that he should be doing it.

There is nothing wrong with abstaining. I am an atheist, and I abstained for a couple of years in order to focus on growing up and learning how to develop platonic relationships. If HE decides to bring it up, then maybe you could talk about about why you disagree with it generally, but definitely without getting personal about his sex life in any way whatsoever. Because, ew.

(also, I've found in my 15 (minus 2) years of sexual activity, the most interesting, sensitive, exciting lovers I've had have generally been the ones who weren't sexually active or promiscuous at a young age. My amazing husband was a virgin until he was in his 20's)
posted by Wroksie at 12:32 PM on September 4, 2008

I would not worry about your son too much. Some people like sleeping around while others don't. Let him be his own person.
posted by Mastercheddaar at 12:34 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Hmm. Can I ask anonymous a follow-up question?

Is there a chance that your assertion that "college is the time for sexual experimentation and getting jiggy with it" is some kind of wish-fulfillment-projection? In other words, is there ANY chance that the reason that you're so caught up in getting your son to experiment was because YOU didn't have that much of a chance yourself? Or because you did, or anything like that?

What I'm getting at is, you may want to think about why this is so important to you, and whether there is ANY chance that you are personally trying to live vicariously through your son. If there IS any chance of that -- whether you're trying to relive your own glory days or have a "do-over" of chance that passed you by -- then that is ALL THE MORE reason to stay out of his business, because it is HIS sex life, not yours.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:40 PM on September 4, 2008 [4 favorites]

Gob Bluth ?!

Ok, pun aside, there may be more to his decision. And since you've already asked him, there's not much else you can do besides tell him that you support him and you're there if he wants to discuss anything.

Young adults usually don't regret things until they can longer amend that regret.

/young adult in college
posted by fizzix at 12:41 PM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

Get him a job as a lifeguard at a country club. Friends who had that gig told some pretty amazing terrifying stories about how the older women would behave after a five martini lunch; if he is lacking for opportunities for sex in his life, this will solve that problem (while adding several other problems).

More seriously, just let him be, the same as if he announced he was going to be a vegetarian or anything else that is slightly odd but not harmful to himself or others. He might be sincere, in which case the last thing he needs is a wrinkly old parent trying to be cool, or he might be trying to cynically use the Abstinence Club to get in some girl's pants, in which case, again, the last thing he needs is your help.

Either way, let him have the space to explore his sexuality in the way he needs to at this time. He'll have plenty of time to "get jiggy" (gag) in the next couple of decades if he wants to, whether with random women or with his soulmate.
posted by Forktine at 12:42 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Our good friend beer will fix this for you.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 12:43 PM on September 4, 2008 [10 favorites]

"Dad, I'm president of the abstinence club" = "Dad, for chrissakes quit trying to 'help me have sex.' That's a deeply icky conversation that I never, ever want to have again."
posted by lemuria at 12:46 PM on September 4, 2008 [4 favorites]

Why do you want him to have sex? College is what you make of it. There's no requirement that kids party and have sex during their four years at college. I'd imagine being the president of an abstinence club is a tough gig, and he probably gets crap from kids at school. You need to be with him on this one.
posted by theiconoclast31 at 12:46 PM on September 4, 2008

College was over a decade ago for me, but I know that, if my father had tried to help me get laid, that would have driven me further toward abstinence, not away from it.

Seriously, leave him alone and let him figure things out for himself. Even if you think he needs help, you are one of the last people he needs it from (female relatives would be absolutely last).
posted by cerebus19 at 12:46 PM on September 4, 2008

"He isn't putting himself at risk of STIs....he isn't putting himself at risk of getting a girl pregnant"

That is incorrect. Young people in the US who participate in abstinence programs are no more or less likely to have unprotected sex than those that don't. I vote against the consensus, he may be an adult, but he's still your son. You don't have to go preaching that he should be out getting laid, but discussing the reasons why abstinence programmes are inefficacious, self-satisfied, narrow-minded, moralistic grandstanding is perfectly within your remit as a father or as a friend.
posted by roofus at 12:47 PM on September 4, 2008 [4 favorites]

Indirectly, if at all. Eg:

Son, you've been at highschool, where you don't even need to make friends because you're stuck with the same people for so long each day that friends just happen.
Now, you're at college. You're not stuck with the same people day in day out like highschool, but everyone is away from home among people they don't know, everyone looking to meet people and make friends, so you'll have no trouble, you just join in.
But after college comes a career, where it might be prudent to keep your professional life and your personal life separate. That means losing the easy social opportunities you have in college, and if you listen, you'll hear an awful lot of people only a few years older than you complain about how hard it is to meet people now that they're no-longer at school or college.
And if you listen even more carefully, you'll hear the old boys network - to outsiders, it looks like power and privilege granting favour and power to others in the fold. And it is these things, but to those involved, it's old friends doing right by their mates - friends who became friends in college, and see other right throughout life.
So what I'm saying is, you've never been out in the cold yet, so you can only be aware at a theoretical level that there is any cold. It's natural to take your current social opportunities for granted. But your current social opportunities are precious and they will pass. Use them fully while you have them, because you are setting yourself up for life in more than just your academic education. Take these opportunities now, whenever and wherever you can.
posted by -harlequin- at 12:48 PM on September 4, 2008 [4 favorites]


I hope this isn't a joke post, because it's just so awesome at so many levels.

Don't talk to him about this. Assuming he's aware of safe sex practices and has a healthy view of people, you've done all you can and should. You have to let go now.

I'm guessing no one's motivations here are sincere. You have a primal urge to see your spawn spawn, so you're genes don't dead end in Junior. You also probably have fond memories of casual sex at that age, and likely want to see that lived out again through him. You want your kid(s) to be happy, and you've only got your experience to draw on so it seems reasonable to encourage him to do the things that made you happy. But he isn't you. Even if acting like you did would make him happy, he'll have to find that out on his own. As the posters above say, don't talk to him about this - it'll just weird him out.

Who knows what his motivations are. Some people don't want to sleep with people they don't have a relationship with otherwise. Maybe that's just his style, and you should let him be.

If he brings it up, I'd only engage him on it to make sure he isn't doing this for the wrong reasons. Wrong reasons would include bitterness about past relationships, trying to get with some abstinence leauge girl, misogyny, or self confidence issues. I think people at this age who feel that no one wants to sleep with them will react by insisting they're not interested anyway, so there!

Honestly though, I see no way for you to talk about his motivations without sending him further off the deep end and alienating him on top of it. I'd drop this. At least you know he won't be getting anyone knocked up.

I'm 19, Male, in college.
posted by phrontist at 12:53 PM on September 4, 2008

In the same way that "Head of Students Against Drunk Driving arrested for DUI" is an almost inevitable headline, I can think of no one more likely to get laid than the head of the College Abstinence Club.

Also, he's an adult, he's 19, it's nunya. Butt out.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 12:54 PM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

You know the stories about the dad who takes his son to the whorehouse on his 18th birthday to 'show him the world'?

Don't be that guy.
posted by holgate at 12:54 PM on September 4, 2008 [3 favorites]


there is nothing creepier then a parent getting mixed up in a kids sex life!

Why do you want him to be promiscous especially in the days of STDs and AIDs?

That's all a young person needs is more pressure to couple up by everyone's elses time table.
posted by Budge at 12:57 PM on September 4, 2008

For the love of God.

Listen, your kid is a newly minted adult experimenting with adult choices. He's trying different stuff on to see what fits and figure out where he fits in the world around him. This year he's abstinent; next year he may join the Peace Corp or decide to be a lawyer.

Or, he may decide he's comfortable waiting to share his sexuality with another person. And that's completely okay. While this isn't a mainstream choice in most communities, that fact it isn't a choice you would make doesn't mean it isn't a valid choice.

Back up. If you don't know what to say, tell him that's really interesting. And leave it at that.
posted by DarlingBri at 12:58 PM on September 4, 2008

I'd put it this way: Perhaps his success in leading the Abstinence club is directly related to his experiences in having a creepy parent.
posted by rhizome at 1:00 PM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

His values differ from yours. As a parent, I've encountered this -- although over somewhat more minor issues -- and the absolute best you can do in this situation is say this: "I don't agree with what you're trying to do, but I'll support you in it." If he cares why you don't agree, great, it's a chance to express your values and gain some insight into his. If not, well, it's not your job to live his life for him and it's not his burden to give you a vicarious life.
posted by majick at 1:01 PM on September 4, 2008

I also like roofus' more political approach - son's lovelife has nothing to do with it, simply being intellectually open that as a faithful, long-married adult, even you see abstinence-only programs as flawed to the point of being ethically wrong, and encouraged by corrupt outside agendas.
posted by -harlequin- at 1:02 PM on September 4, 2008

There is no way this post is real. But, on the off chance it is, i'm pretty sure being in the abstinence club hasn't stopped anyone from having sex. At least your son knows what a condom is.
posted by chunking express at 1:03 PM on September 4, 2008

You did a good job teaching him, already. Back off now and let him go through this phase.

(I also love the "one of his friends thinks he might have a crush on a girl in the Abstinence club." theory, and repeat the oft-explained above: abstinence clubs don't work.)
posted by rokusan at 1:07 PM on September 4, 2008

If somebody does not want to have sex, you have no right to pressure them to. No matter how much you think they might like it.
posted by Metroid Baby at 1:22 PM on September 4, 2008 [4 favorites]

That is incorrect. Young people in the US who participate in abstinence programs are no more or less likely to have unprotected sex than those that don't.

I suspect that most teens who take abstinence pledges do so with parental support, if not encouragement. Most teens should have more sense than to *refuse* to take an abstinence pledge when their religious parents suggest it.

On the other hand teens who take abstinence pledges in the face of parental discouragement may be a different (and much smaller) demographic - As such, these statistics may not apply.
posted by Mike1024 at 1:26 PM on September 4, 2008

Support him in it. You don't have to agree, but you can vocalise support and be (non-interferingly) interested.

That way, if it's how he chooses to go long-term, you've still got a relationship with your son and his hackles aren't raised every time the subject comes up even neutrally. Or if it doesn't work out and he hits the irony jackpot next week, he knows you're supportive of him and feels like you'll be supportive of the next direction in which he follows his gut.

Besides, he's 19, so it's a grand time to be making odd decisions and learning from them, which is much more useful than learning to do what your parents tell you to do....or who your parents tell you to do.
posted by carbide at 1:27 PM on September 4, 2008

This question sounds fake. But if it's true: Keep your nose out of it. He doesn't tell you how to conduct your sex life and you shouldn't tell him how to conduct his.
posted by Happydaz at 1:35 PM on September 4, 2008

Sorry, I meant to say I DON'T believe in abstinence.

I didn't believe in abstinence when I was 17, either. Unfortunately my lack of belief didn't make me any less abstinant.
posted by pardonyou? at 2:25 PM on September 4, 2008 [3 favorites]

As many others have pointed out, young people who have formed themselves into a mixed-gender club in order to declare their intention to wait are almost certainly going to have sex.

The only issues I'd worry about are the consequences of failed chastity - getting "carried away" and having sex without a condom or birth control, because, you know, you weren't planning to. Me and almost all my Catholic pals did this first few times out. You might persuade him to carry a condom, for much the same reason you wear a seatbelt while driving or don't point loaded guns at people - not because you plan to have an accident, but, you know, shit happens.

yes, loaded gun, that's about right
posted by tiny crocodile at 2:59 PM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

He is his own person. He is different to you. He'll be fine.

Also: would you be asking this question if your 19 year old daughter joined the abstinence club?
posted by hot soup girl at 3:07 PM on September 4, 2008 [8 favorites]

Seconding tiny crocodile. Come on, people, this kid is obviously comfortable enough talking to the parent about sex to tell them they're in an abstinence club, so what's the harm in discussing some of the risks of participating in the culture of abstinence (which is, of course, rarely the same as participating in the practice of abstinence)--IE, the risk of unprotected sex?
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 3:29 PM on September 4, 2008

I'm going to disagree with a lot of the advice given. I'd ask him about why he decided to join the club. I'd inform him that a loving sexual relationship is possible outside of marriage. Let him know that if he wants to discuss it further, you are open to talking about it.

Also, DO NOT USE THE WORDS "GET JIGGY WITH IT" under any circumstances. That will drive him far away from discussing sex with you under any circumstances.
posted by Ironmouth at 3:32 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

abstinence = no intercourse. But blow jobs are ok, right? And he has a crush on a girl in the abstinence club? Sounds like knows exactly what he's doing.
posted by kamelhoecker at 3:53 PM on September 4, 2008

You might persuade him to carry a condom, for much the same reason you wear a seatbelt while driving or don't point loaded guns at people - not because you plan to have an accident, but, you know, shit happens.

Yeah. Tell him that you're glad he's making his own decisions and that condoms are good to have around on the off chance a friend of his needs one.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 3:55 PM on September 4, 2008

Help your son get laid? That's the scariest shit I've ever heard from a parent. You can advise him on safe sex and what not, but start talking about doggy-style and you'll be a really, really creepy parent.
posted by curagea at 4:56 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Oh my god. He'll have sex eventually, on his own terms, and I assure you he'll be fine. The statistics on abstinence programs aren't great either, for what it's worth.

But seriously, please don't interfere.
posted by Nattie at 6:48 PM on September 4, 2008

buy him some condoms. seriously. it's true that he'll probably have sex eventually and you shouldn't worry. in fact, i'm sure of it. but if he's deep in this retarded abstinence-only shit then he'll make some poor choices when he eventually does go for the girls (or guys, etc). just make sure he's not being stupid when he snaps.
posted by mr_book at 7:07 PM on September 4, 2008

Jeez, what can you do? Seriously. You may have a really open relationship with your son and can talk to him about sex without embarrassment for him or you...but I kinda doubt it. For most folks it just weird to talk with your mom or dad about sex.

I don't see any option for you in this area, so it's best to just drop it. I agree that abstinence only is a ridiculous and potentially harmful set of beliefs, but again, what can you possibly say to him that doesn't cross the line into weirdness?
posted by zardoz at 7:38 PM on September 4, 2008 nineteen year old son just informed me that he is president of his college's abstinence club.


And you BELIEVED him?!?? He's probably fucking himself to exhaustion.

Since you're obviously one to have the wool pulled over your eyes with ease, I'll even offer you another little tip on understanding your college-aged kid: "I'm staying in & studying all weekend" actually means "my mates & I are going to an all-weekend rave in the wilderness, where we're going to consume enough drugs to kill an elephant"
posted by UbuRoivas at 7:38 PM on September 4, 2008 [4 favorites]

I would probably say something like "just make sure you're looking at the other side of the situation. They're are pros and cons to both sides." I would also ask why he feels the need to be so fanatical about abstinence. If it's not about religion it does seem kind of strange. If he was trying to nail anything that moved it would concern me as well. Everything's better in moderation. He might regret missed opportunities later in life but it's better than regretting 4 wasted years of binge drinking, smoking pot and one night stands on your parents dime.

BTW, I was also president of the abstinence club at his age only it didn't have a name and I was the only member ;)
posted by bda1972 at 7:41 PM on September 4, 2008

there is nothing creepier then a parent getting mixed up in a kids sex life

Amen to that. Within my first few days away at college I received two envelopes in the mail from the parents. The envelope from my mother contained a Jehovah's Witness pamphlet that graphically explained how I would burn in hell if I had sex outside of marriage. The envelope from my father contained a handwritten letter that basically said, "Go ahead and jiggy with it." It wasn't as if I felt I needed their permission and decades later whenever I think of that bit of unnecessary long-distance melodrama it still creeps me out.

Ditto to what pretty much everyone else has said. Leave the kid alone and hope that when he "falls of the wagon" he and his partner are fully and appropriately protected.
posted by fuse theorem at 8:19 PM on September 4, 2008

What are the kid's feelings about pornography? Perhaps screen a few different types of genres, and ask him.
posted by waraw at 8:47 PM on September 4, 2008

I'd suggest that maybe you consider that he's serious. That he's decided that getting his education and starting his career are more important to him than getting laid. Since no method of birth control other than the do-not-allow-penis-anywhere-near-vagina method is 100% foolproof, that's a perfectly valid decision. Yes, college is a great time for experimentation, but experimentation with maintaining one's standards in the face of a vast amount of temptation can be very educational as well.

I made it through college and another several years after without "getting jiggy with it" and am now married to the only woman I've ever had sex with. I don't regret for a moment that I made that choice. As the others have said, let him live his life his way.
posted by Morydd at 9:32 PM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

Shouldn't parents be supportive of their children? I mean, as long as he's not a mass murderer or rapist, he's not doing anyone (including himself) any harm.
posted by Mael Oui at 9:39 PM on September 4, 2008

I... uhh... knew a guy... yeah a friend ina similar club. He joined the club because of a girl. He never did have sex with her, but I... I mean he, did have lots of fun with her otherwise. wink wink, nudge nudge.
posted by warriorengineer at 8:55 AM on September 5, 2008

back off, it's none of your business

coming from the opposite, with a dad who had a problem with me having A-N-Y sexually pleasing experiences before marriage, you're even creepier trying to get him to have sex when he feels he isn't ready.

don't bring it up again. im going assume youve been trying to get him to have sex for a while now and it was hard enough for him to tell you this because he doesn't want to disappoint you. he might very well be exaggerating, hoping that the extreme that he's gone to will get you off his back.

you should be proud of him. he's an adult. he considered what you want, and what his body and mind are telling him, and told you to fuck off.

listen to the man.
posted by phritosan at 9:04 AM on September 5, 2008

How would you feel about getting sex advice from your son?

That's what I thought. No go, and shove off likewise.
posted by eritain at 11:32 AM on September 5, 2008

I am a few days late in seeing this...
Let me get this clarified: you are a parent trying to get her son to have sex?!? I would be very interested to know where your mindset comes from (specifically, what experiences). As a parent, you seem to have been negatively influenced by society into thinking that 'more sexual partners = better life' when it is not the truth.
Aside from what you think about abstinence, your son is trying to live life with a little less risk. You should be PROUD. I am very proud of your son growing up with a bit more wisdom and a better perspective on life (as far as this issue is concerned).
posted by KB.Boston_implant.By way of NY at 6:32 AM on September 10, 2008

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