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Back to School Alphabet Soup: BA vs BSc vs HonBA vs HonBSc

256 — Tue, 01 Dec 2009 11:53:48 -0800

So, I'm at a transition point in my life. A bunch of things are ending and a bunch of things are beginning. Seems like a good time to finally get around to finishing that degree. Only question is, which degree? (Apologies in advance for how long this is.)

Let's take a trip down memory lane:

The year is 2003 and our hero is three years into a four year Honours Bachelor of Science in Artificial Intelligence at the University of Toronto. Unfortunately, our hero is also in pretty dire financial straits. Because of decent marks, he has gotten managed to get an indefinite extension from the financial aid department on paying his tuition for the current year, but he'll have to settle up eventually. And paying rent is proving hard enough. So when the tech NGO he works for part-time as a code monkey offers him a salaried position, he jumps at it and never looks back.

In the intervening six years I've worked various coding jobs, published a novella, written a novel, lived in four countries and grown tired of referring to myself in the third person.

I'm thirty years old and considering what my next career move is. I know I don't have the temperament for a career in computer programming. Sad as it is to let those skills go to waste, I've burned out on it. Writing is my primary passion and I am in the process of cleaning up the manuscript for my novel and seeking an agent. I'm sure I'll write another regardless of whether or not i manage to sell this one. I also intend to continue doing freelance work for magazines. That said, it's not a revenue stream that's going to support me and my family.

I think I'm a pretty clever guy, I'm creative and I've got a rather extensive and esoteric skillset. I've got exceptional communication skills and I know I interview well. My real goal is to break into either the publishing (literary press or magazines) or gaming (video or tabletop) industry. Eventually I would love to be in a creative director type position. I'm more than willing to pay my dues and put in my time, but I also don't want to start in the mailroom.

I've also considered the possibility of a career in Public Service Canada.

So, it has occurred to me that before beginning the job hunt in earnest, it might benefit me to have an undergraduate degree on my resume in addition to all my work experience.

Now, the question only remains of how exactly to do that. I'm only two half-credits shy of completing a three year Bachelor of Arts degree. The University of Toronto no longer offers the three year degree but, because they did when I was originally a student, I'm grandfathered in and still have the option of completing it. The trick with getting the three year B. A. is that, should I ever opt to complete the fourth year and upgrade it to an Honours degree, I could only upgrade it to an Hon. B. A., not an Hon. B. Sc..

So, if I want to keep my options open regarding eventually completing my original course of study, I would need to complete seven courses instead of two. This would involve going back to school full time for half a year but, when I was done, I would have a three year Bachelor of Science degree.

The thing is that, since I'm not intending to seek work in a field related to my degree regardless, it's not clear to me what the relative merits are of having a B. Sc. versus a B. A. (or an Hon. B. Sc. versus an Hon. B. A.). Would the fact that I have an irrelevant science degree be more impressive to someone hiring for, say, a publishing company, than an irrelevant arts degree?

The other question is: How much, if at all, are people going to care that I have a three year degree rather than a four year degree? I definitely don't have the money or inclination to complete the rest of my four year degree right now, but I may want to upgrade in the future. I'm not planning to ever go to grad school, but my wife is a German citizen and we may well find ourselves living in Europe (again) at some point. Will my three year degree be looked down upon outside of Canada? Or will anyone even know the difference?

The reason this is important now is because, if I do ever decide to go back and complete a fourth year, I would very much prefer to complete the Hon. B. Sc. in Artificial Intelligence rather than an Hon. B. A. in Cognitive Science. The difference in cool factor should be obvious.

So, yeah... I guess this is a pretty open-ended question with two major parts:

1. Is a B. Sc. (compsci/psychology) significantly sexier than a B. A. (cognitive science/linguistics) to the people that would be hiring in the publishing or game design industries?

2. How likely am I to feel a need to upgrade my three year degree to a four year degree later in life?

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Below are the actual details about what would be involved for me to finish my degree, for anyone who cares(To even walk back onto campus at U of T, I'll need to pay off the ~$3500 in back tuition that I owe the school.):

1. The fastest way to get out of the school with a degree would involve taking one half-credit psychology course and one half-credit linguistics courses. I would then qualify for a three year Bachelor of Arts degree with a major in Cognitive Science. (2 courses. $1100 addtl. fees: $4600 total.)

1a. Identical to (1.) except that by adding a second linguistics half-credit, I could complement the Cog. Sci. major with a minor in Linguistics. (3 courses. $1650 addtl. fees: $5150 total.)

2. If I complete four computer science half-credits and three half-credits in psychology, then I can earn a three year Bachelor of Science with no major, but a double minor in Computer Science and Psychology. (7 courses. $3850 addtl. fees: $7350 total.)

2a. Strangely enough, I took several theoretical physics courses as electives and it turns our that I'm just as close to completing a physics minor as a compsci minor. Three year B. Sc. with double minor in Physics and Psychology. (7 courses. $3850 addtl. fees: $7350 total.)

3. To complete the original four year degree I was working towards: Six computer science half-credits, four linguistics half-credits and two philosophy half-credits would net me a four year Honours Bachelor of Science in Artificial Intelligence. (12 courses. $6600 addtl. fees: $10100 total.)

3a. Six linguistics half-credits, four psychology half-credits and two philosophy half-credits would net me a four year Honours Bachelor of Arts with a double major in Cognitive Science and Linguistics. (12 courses. $6600 addtl. fees: $10100 total.)

Is a BS a BS? Or just BS?

ctmf — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 19:20:03 -0800

Is a BS degree a BS degree, or are there "lesser" degrees - I don't even know how to ask this. I'll try, though. I've finally decided to stop giving in to the reasons to put it off. I'm going to pursue a degree for myself. It turns out that, between my military experience and a handful of community college courses I took, I'm only 30-odd credits from a BSAST from Thomas Edison State College. A few CLEPs and a few courses, and I should be there. Plus, the GI bill should pay for it. So I'm fairly excited about that.

Here's my reservation about it, tell me if I'm being paranoid:
I have this pamphlet about degree programs from the Navy College office where I got most of my info. In one section it explains that there are "academic" degrees, and "professional/technical" degrees, and then lists some typical course requirements. The BSAST degree is a "technical" degree, is the impression I get. Am I getting myself into what amounts to a fancy-sounding cert program like CCNA or MCSE?

My other option is trying to take night classes from UW after doing everything I can at a community college. Financially, that would not be an issue, but the thought of years and years of night school is not appealing.

I eventually want to apply to OSU's Master of Health Physics degree. The requirements say "4 year baccalaureate degree" which it sounds like I would have. I'm just afraid when I put my degree on my resume for jobs, or for the OSU application I'm going to hear, "no, we meant a REAL degree."

Maybe it's just because this sounds too good to be true and I'm suspicious. Can anyone (especially someone with HR or college admissions experience) comment on that?

Are expensive American undergraduate educations worth it for foreign students?

Mo Nickels — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 04:44:41 -0800

Is it worth it for a foreign parent to squeeze his budget to manage very expensive undergraduate educations for his children in elite American schools? A respected colleague in Asia writes with this query. It's not so much about how to get financial aid when you are a parent of foreign student seeking an undergraduate education in the United States so much as it is a question as to whether it is worth it at all, even if you can pay.

His words are below, posted with his permission. I have stripped out identifying information. The family is not in Singapore, for what that is worth.

«I have 2 children entering university at the same time this year.

My son has won a partial scholarship to the Eastman School of Music, but even then, the amount we'd have to come up with to send him there is rather forbidding.

My daughter has been accepted into New York University to do Liberal Arts -- but without any aid, which makes it virtually impossible for us to help her realise her dream.

What resources can I apply for in the US or elsewhere to help them? We've tried ones in our country but so far without success.

Would you recommend they take up the places offered them by the 2 schools, given the constraints? Are the schools really worth the astronomical expense? (Well, I know Eastman is about second to Juilliard, and NYU is reputable, although its Arts programme is 15th in the world.)

Would it really count so much that these would be for undergraduate study? Do people look more at one's postgrad pedigree? Would it be just as well that they did their first degree elsewhere (more affordable) and seek to go higher at Eastman and NYU afterwards? (In fact, my son has also obtained a full scholarship to theYong Siew Toh Coservatory of Music in Singapore. But then, what is YST compared to Eastman?)

I'm sorry if I sound inane but this issue of my children's further education has been keeping me from sleep for quite a while.»

Two Master's Degrees... What are my options?

msposner — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 10:57:38 -0800

This spring I will be finished with my second Master's degree. I've been at my current job for almost three years and while I enjoy it immensely, I am wondering about other opportunities that having two graduate degrees might open up for me. Am hoping to obtain answers especially from individuals who have multiple degrees and have gone into somewhat different career paths. My first graduate degree is a M.S. in Secondary School Education. I am qualified to teach in public school (context area: Social Studies). I also am certified to teach at schools for the deaf but that is not something I want to focus on because of how such institutions are being shut down at an alarming rate.

My second graduate degree is going to be a M.S. in Professional/Rehabilitation Counseling, which I'll be obtaining in May of 2009. I'm not going to be pursuing my Certified Rehabilitation Counselor (CRC) certificate because I was recently on their advisory panel and signed a waiver stating that I promise not to take the CRC test for at least five years due to first-hand exposure to potential test questions. This is perfectly fine with me because I'm not planning on having my own independent counseling practice and I have no desire to work for any of the major insurance companies around here.

I currently work at a state agency as a vocational rehabilitation counselor and while I do enjoy this job very, very much, lately it seems as if I'm often hearing from people (respected professionals) that I should be doing something "better" and so forth.

For me, "better", would be to obtain employment as a researcher (researcher scientist?) or a professor at a college/university, which is actually my ultimate goal but I'm also open to acquiring other, relevant experience that might enhance myself as an educator. I'm a voracious reader and I'm always conducting research- I'd really like to go into education/rehabilitation policy if the opportunity ever presents itself.

For now, my intention is clearly to "stay put" because as I mentioned, I love my job and I enjoy working with my colleagues, however, I have my goals outside of this field and have oftentimes thought about returning to the classroom as a high school teacher.

In a nutshell, my inquiries are defined as follows:

(I) I've been told that having Master degrees in both education and counseling will make me very attractive to school systems. True?

(II) Will the fact that I do not have terminal degrees in either fields (education and counseling) hurt my chances in obtaining research-based positions and/or work as a college instructor?

(III) For someone with two Master's degrees, what are the other fields I could go into when I have specialization in both education and counseling?

(IV) Has anyone experienced negative pitfalls of having multiple graduate degrees such as frequent rejections on the basis of being overqualified?

--------

Caveat #1: I am profoundly deaf. This, unfortunately, creates a lot of barriers for me in the workplace. Many schools have refused to hire me because in order for me to instruct in public schools, they would have to also pay for a full-time sign language interpreter since I communicate primarily in American Sign Language. In their eyes, I'm not cost effective- I'm a budget burden. As I mentioned earlier, I do not want to work at schools for the deaf because of the lack of job security and their notoriously low salaries.

Caveat #2: I've mentioned that I love my current job. However, I am also trying to plan ahead (1-3 years) and have always been open to other opportunities.

Caveat #3: Not really looking to relocate anytime in the near/distant future. Wife loves her job and is pregnant with our first child. We also put a lot of work in our present home.

Caveat #4: I'm 27 years old.

Caveat #5: My current job is paying fully for my second graduate degree, which is really the only reason why I went back to school after I completed my first Master's.

Thanks in advance for all of your suggestions/insights.

Presentation tips and advice

philsi — Tue, 28 Oct 2008 13:47:06 -0800

What are the best ways to encourage audience participation and reception of potentially boring presentations? I have two presentations late November / early December and want to keep people alert and do a memorable presentation. What tricks did the best / most memorable presentations you have seen use? I have two presentations to give in late November and early December, one as part of a group of four people on "Ethical Fashion in the UK" with an emphasis on child labour, and the other as part of a group of three people on the financial impacts of organisations going green. Both are around the 20 minute mark.

We have all the material we need, and are just organising into a suitable order, but need some interesting ways to encourage audience participation, and keep everyone interested (other than the usual "don't just read slides" / "don't mumble" / "don't put too much on slides" advice)

I've tried googling around, but have only found the usual "PowerPoint no-nos" and usual tips about talking clearly / not relying on PowerPoint too much. Any links to websites greatly received.

If it makes any difference, this is for a final year Business Management degree in the UK.

Balancing work experience and college?

Anonymous — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 09:58:59 -0800

I am switching from full-time college with a part-time job to part-time college with a full-time job to gain more experience. I'm in the Web software development industry. How do I keep motivated and not get discouraged? I have had a part-time/full-time job since I was 15 developing a niche Web application. I've since graduated from high school and completed my freshman year at a nearby university working 30+ hrs/wk with classes 15 hrs/wk (not including studying) with a 3.5 GPA. The job is going downhill quickly with new management and many of my smart coworkers leaving for bigger out-of-state companies. If I could, I'd work somewhere else, but there isn't a lot of companies doing what I do in this area.

That's why, a few months ago, I resolved to quit the job by the end of summer to focus on getting my degree in Computer Science while living with my parents to cut expenses. I planned on doing some consulting type work, not for the money per se, but to keep my current skills.

A month ago, an ex-coworker called me asking if I'd be interested in joining their team at a company I always dreamed of working for. It's at a relatively large company in California. I decided that I should give it a shot because I have noting to lose-- and got the offer. It's definitely not over my head but it'll give me a new challenge. The job will start out using the skills I developed at my present job and I'll have the opportunity to learn more as I continue to work there. I'll get paid a lot of money and can live on my own. The people are great, I feel wanted, and the environment rocks.

The only problem is that I'm not through school yet! My friends and family think that this is a non-issue because I'm getting relevant job experience and the company will pay for school. My parents argue that continuing with school here will leave me without relevant experience when I graduate. Indeed, many of my coworkers are working below market to gain Web app experience-- and they have CS degrees from the university I have attended.

At the same time, I recognize the need for a good education. I know that the "CS theory" & math skills I have must be improved on if I want to continue a career in this field because the Web isn't going to be using my current skills forever. I plan on going to a local community college part-time with this full-time job. There is a university nearby but, of course, my admission there isn't guaranteed.

I'm concerned that I'll be a greater risk of getting discouraged with school. I'm concerned that I should be focusing on school to potentially transfer into a better school. (Basicially, that I should be a "traditional student" and not going part-time.) I'm concerned that if I don't take this job opportunity doing what I love, I'm going to regret it forever. However, I could leave this job after a year and return to the same university.

I'm looking for advice. I'm pretty much committed to taking the job right now but I'd like to get some perspective from others who have more experience than I do.

Here are a few starting points:

How do I transfer from a community college to a university as a part-time student? Should I look into online or distance education? Any gotchas? Should I be concerned about 7-10 year time limits on undergrad degrees?

Any wise words to keep me motivated to get through school and work? Will this job be an asset or a liability to applying for a university in a couple of years (think application essay and/or my knowledge gained on the job)?

Thanks everyone! You may contact me here: workingstudent@rocketmail.com

Writing a scientific paper on scientific illustration - where can I find sources?

D J Robertstein — Thu, 04 Oct 2007 06:21:58 -0800

I chose an unusual subject for my third year dissertation- Scientific Illustration. I need to compare past and present methods of recording images and their pros and cons with a named example (at the moment I've chosen Phytophthera, potato blight), as well as methods by which students and researchers observe and record their images. I'm a little stumped though, as there is very little (to my knowledge) peer-reviewed referencable texts out there for me to study with. Can anyone help? I'm currently studying Biological Science in my 3rd year, and my research project, rather unusually, is about scientific illustration. I enjoy science, but do not want a career in it when I graduate, and so chose to keep at least one of my proverbial fingers in a vaguely artistic pie. However, I now have the task of making this paper sufficiently scientific, which is a major problem since there are few peer-reviewed papers and sources for the research I need to do compared to, say, a study into MRSA or cancer genes.
The bulk of the paper will be comparing methods of illustration from painting to photography with reference to their intended purpose (decoration, diagram, etc) and the type of information they must get accross to their audience, both in the past and in the present, with at least one example- it currently being images of potato blight, Phytophthera and how they have changed with changing methods of illustration. Moreover, I would also like to look into ways of helping students to observe and record what they see, and methods drawing diagrams for those who would not be described as artistically talented.

I'm sorry if this seems vague, but at the moment I'm sitting in a bit of a limbo between art and science, and as a result I am finding it very hard to aquire much source material. Are there any books, papers, or websites out there about the subject of scientific illustration, or comparisons between photography and illustration, past and present? If you have any questions I'll happily try to be more specific.

Thanks in advance.

Distance Ed

simplesharps — Mon, 01 Oct 2007 15:33:57 -0800

I stopped 3/4 of the way through my degree. I'd like to get the piece of paper, but I don't necessarily want to study on campus or with that Australian university. I was bored with its syllabus difficulty (not it's content: web, video and graphic design) and decided to see if I could make it in the real world. I've since been working in the industry for 4 years with some success. I thought it was time that I made another change so I quit my job, traveled remote parts of SE Asia without dying OR contracting horrible diseases. I came back refreshed and got straight into freelancing. Still haven't quite mastered all the ins and outs, but the freedom of waking up and starting work in pajamas is something else.

Now that I have the opportunity, I'd like to finish a similar degree with a respected Australian institution who is well known for its creative graduates. I can't study on campus, so I'd need to apply for some form of distance ed. I'm not sure how all of this works - any recommendations much appreciated.

In China, what (unique) challenges do the locals face in getting a good job?

gttommy — Sun, 16 Sep 2007 13:34:19 -0800

In China, what (unique) challenges do the locals face in getting a good job? From what I know: schooling is tough, getting into university is tough, due to the high number of graduates the competition is tough... from observation alot of people do low-level, uninteresting jobs, which would be considered demeaning in wealthier countries, so it must be extremely difficult to get a good job in China especially with no degree.

I want to research into this. What are the things I should know? Facts, anecdotes? Where should I go for more info? Search terms to use in Google?

Your help is appreciated.

Can I take graduate courses before I'm enrolled in a Ph.D. program?

ifranzen — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 21:08:17 -0800

Can I take graduate courses before I'm enrolled in a Ph.D. program? Do any grad students do this? I am going to be graduating in two years, and I am thinking about entering graduate school for philosophy (in the USA).

I am graduating one year early. During the time in between the completion of my B.A. and my enrollment in a Ph.D. program (possibly one year), would any schools let me enroll in graduate classes, and would the graduate program I enter recognize these credits? I would like to "get my feet wet" with a light course load. I know this is done all the time in undergrad institutions (the "non-matriculated student") but is this common at all for grad students? Can I pay to take graduate courses without being officially enrolled in their program?

I suspect this is something I would need to ask each university (the university I want to take the class at, and then the universities housing the Ph.D. programs that I am thinking about applying to) but I was wondering if fellow Mefites have any information.

I have heard that most Ph.D. programs build the M.A. into their program. Is this the way most people go in philosophy, or do most get their M.A. and Ph.D. at separate institutions? Also, if anyone can offer advice about pursuing a Ph.D. in philosophy it would be more than welcome.

Thank you.

graduate student support group

fionab — Sun, 01 May 2005 20:33:43 -0800

Grad students unite! Calling all Ph.D. students, but especially those in the humanities, literature, languages, or history departments. How do you stay healthy (mentally and physically), keep sane, be positive, get work finished in a timely manner, stay happy? I'm Ph.D. student in Literature/Film at Duke. This is the end of my second year, and well, life has been better. I feel like my social skills are dying, my stress levels are too high, my bank account too low, and my future uncertain. There are parts of me that absolutely love what I do: it is definitely a moral/ethical/doing-it-for-the-love career and life experience. But there are days where I don't talk to anyone in person, and my long-distance relationship seems to be falling apart. I came in as one of the more social people in my department, and perhaps that's why I'm feeling the pain more than others. I love books and films, and I like both the practice and idea of teaching, adore writing, and really can sink my teeth into research that matters. BUT, I miss having sustained personal contact, deadlines on a more regular basis than twice yearly, and don't really love the area that I live in. To make it a little worse, the job market these days doesn't exactly give me tons of hope for the future. I'm definitely not in this solely for a job after the dissertation, but I'd be joking if I didn't consider it as part of the overall journey and part of the plan for my future. I took time off between my undergrad degree and starting here, and worked, travelled, and really thought about what I wanted to do.

I know there must be lots of science Ph.D. students here, but somehow I feel like your situation is slightly different: you work with other people in a lab, have frequent deadlines, and options outside of academia when you're finished. There is also a much stronger mentor/boss relationship. MA students are here for a year, maybe two, and it's a much different career trajectory. There are any number of reasons why this was a bad school year for me. But after talking with some of my fellow students, this seems like a general state-of-mind, no matter the personal situation that adds a slightly different colour. It's a well-known program, filled with top-notch professors, I have an advisor that seems to understand me and my project, and I'm not totally destitute. And yet, it seems like I'm missing something here.

If you were a grad student, or are a grad student, what are your words of wisdom? What are your tips for getting through this? How do you manage your time, keep sane, stay healthy, see people? What do you wish someone had told you before all of this started?

I wish it were as simple as 1) Get accepted 2) Work hard 3) ???? 4) Profit!! But alas, no such luck yet. Please help me stay in school :-)

Pros and Cons of an Economics degree

Sangre Azul — Tue, 31 Aug 2004 10:21:18 -0800

My friend needs help deciding on either a BA or BSBA degree in economics. He would like to work in international trade or something related. What are some pros/cons of each degree (and possible minors for the BA)? He would probably be working for a few years before pursuing a master's degree.