Ask MetaFilter questions tagged with genealogy

Hey, You Look Familiar

sfkiddo — Fri, 27 Nov 2009 19:36:01 -0800

If a woman had a son with Mr. X, then a subsequent son by Mr. X's brother, what would the childrens' relationship to each other be? The kids would be half-brothers but also cousins; is there a specific word to describe that relationship? (BTW, this is a hypothetical question spawned by a movie trailer; there are no baby daddy issues lurking in it.)

When did we stop inventing new surnames?

szechuan — Thu, 20 Aug 2009 23:19:01 -0800

When did we stop inventing new surnames? Speaking mainly about Western languages, I am broadly familiar with the history of surnames, and the way in which some reflected occupation, others family relationships ("son of") etc. I am also aware that some names were quite recently "created" as people migrated to different countries and names were anglicised or otherwise edited by immigration authorities. But is there a point at which the current surnames being passed down through the generations more or less settled where they are now? When did we stop creating new ones?

Pictures of a politician.

ms.codex — Tue, 18 Aug 2009 17:40:12 -0800

What should I do with personal family photos of Notable Historical Personage, my Chinese great-grandfather? Before her death my Chinese grandmother compiled around 25 photo albums documenting her life (1926-2002). Among these are numerous photos of her father, a minor political figure of 20th-century Chinese history. He was a prominent journalist and one of the leaders of the Kuomingtang, personally and politically close to both Sun_Yat-Sen and Chiang_Kai-Shek. Just for anonymity's sake I'd prefer not to link to his Wikipedia article, but here's a measure of his general notability: there are several English-language dissertations and academic books that discuss political role, his writings, and his (fairly colorful) life history, and he tends to merit medium-length entries in encyclopedias of 20th-century China. He gets a lot more biographical attention in Taiwan but with my dismal Chinese I'm unable to read any of that stuff.

I've run into lots of photos of him in academic publications, mostly "official" portraits and pictures of groups of politicians. My grandmother's albums contain informal pictures of him lounging around at home with his wife and children (circa 1930s). Come to think of it, while I've seen informal and/or domestic photos of other Chinese politicians, I've never seen any of him. I assume that researchers get their informal photos from the families themselves, and they just never tracked down my grandmother, since she came over to the US in the 60s. So my question is: would historians have any interest in these pictures of Minor Personage of Nationalist China? Is there some academic journal I could submit these things to? Should I just set up a little website? I think the pictures are noteworthy and shouldn't just be shut up in my grandmother's albums. Advice from the hivemind, academic historians especially, welcomed.

Seeking recomendation for immigration attorney in Los Angeles for Italian citizenship by descent case

Asparagirl — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 16:58:02 -0800

Please recommend an attorney -- preferably one in the Los Angeles area -- for an unusual Italian citizenship by descent case. Looking for one with knowledge of complicated 20th Century treaties regarding the former Ottoman Empire, modern Turkey, Italy, and Greece, and experience dealing with a lack of some typical primary citizenship evidence. Short version:
Know a good immigration/citizenship attorney, or someone with experience with the Italian consulate system, preferably in Los Angeles? If so, please drop a note.

Long version:
My mother-in-law "Jane" was born in California in 1949. Her family are Sephardic Jews who lived for hundreds of years on the island of Rhodes, which is just off the coast of Turkey in the Aegean Sea. Rhodes was formerly part of the Ottoman Empire. Much of the population was Greek and following the break-up of the Empire, the island was "supposed to" go to Greece. However, it was illegally seized by Italy in 1912 and, seeing as possession is 9/10 of the law, was formally made a part of Italy under the Treaty of Lausanne in July 1923. This treaty gave Italian citizenship to the people of Rhodes, and according to knowledgeable sources I've talked to in the Rhodes genealogy community, this new citizenship also applied to people born on the island even if they weren't actually living there at the time of the treaty signing.

Jane's maternal grandfather Ray was born on Rhodes in either 1895 or 1896 (reports vary), and immigrated to the US in 1913. Jane's maternal grandmother Amelia was born either on Rhodes or in Milas, Turkey (reports vary) in 1904 and immigrated to the US in 1916. They got married in Los Angeles in August 1923 and had their first child, Jane's mother Esther, in Los Angeles in late 1924.

Ray filed his Declaration of Intention for US naturalization and citizenship in 1916. He and his family believed he became a US citizen shortly thereafter. However, he apparently didn't actually file his final papers for citizenship until the 1950's and did not become a full US citizen until 1955. (Copies of all the papers have been obtained from the Department of Homeland Security under an FOIA request.) This raises questions about his citizenship status in the 1916-1955 period, and whether that citizenship can be passed down to his children and/or grandchildren.

Specifically, Italian citizenship is one of the rare European nationalities that can pass down by descent. It used to be that only men could pass it down, but after 1948, women can also pass it down to children who were born after 1948.

As mentioned, Ray was born 1895/1896. Assuming that he became an Italian citizen in July 1923, then Amelia also unknowingly became an Italian citizen upon marrying him a month later in August 1923 -- although she probably assumed that she was becoming an American citizen upon her marriage, under the Cable Act of 1922. Their daughter Esther was born in the US in 1924, at a time when both her parents apparently had Italian citizenship, thus making her a dual citizen. As she likely never knew this, she never formally renounced her Italian citizenship. Esther married Ralph in 1944, also from Rhodes and also an Italian citizen, who had come to the US in 1937, fleeing Mussolini. Ralph became a US citizen in 1945. Their daughter "Jane" was born 1949 -- and so could have inherited Italian citizenship from Esther under the post-1948 law allowing female lines to carry citizenship.

"Jane" would like to claim her Italian citizenship by descent, if in fact she is entitled to it (as we believe she may be). However, we're going to need a good immigration lawyer for this case, preferably in the Los Angeles area, because of several complicating factors:

- Applying for Italian citizenship by descent usually includes getting copies of your Italian ancestors' birth certificates, as proof. However, there are no known birth certificates for people born on Rhodes under the Ottoman rule -- the Empire was kind of lax about record-keeping by that point. Furthermore, it is unclear (but unlikely) that any formal documents, such as passports, were issued to the people of Rhodes when they became Italian citizens en masse in 1923. Therefore we have little primary evidence for Ray and/or Amelia's Italian citizenship.

- There are probably only two surviving modern censuses of Rhodes under Italian rule, one from the 1920's and one from the late 1930's. They contain minimal information on the population outside of names and birthdates (or in some cases estimated birth years). Ray had already left the island by that point and while he may have had family members show up in the census records, he himself would not. So, more lack of primary evidence of citizenship.

- Around 1943/1944, the Italian anti-Semitic governor of Rhodes illegally stripped all the local Jews of their Italian citizenship, above and beyond the impositions already placed on them by Italian Racial Laws. This meant that some then supposedly reverted to Turkish citizenship again...or not? It was unclear at the time. In any case, the Jews of Rhodes were shipped to Auschwitz in 1944 and nearly all murdered there. So there is very little previous "case law" before the Italian consulates on the subject of Italian citizenship for Rhodes descendants, as only a few people chose to apply for it in the intervening years.

- In 1948, Rhodes was formally transferred from Italy to Greece, and the people of Rhodes were now given Greek citizenship. However, unlike the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923, this only applied to people who were actually living on the island at this time...probably. This is a sticky wicket that needs research by a good attorney.

- Finally, copies of all US-based evidence -- birth certificates, US citizen papers, etc. -- have already been collected, but apostilles are still needed.

So, names of immigration/citizenship attorneys, people involved with the Italian consulate system, and suggestions on how to proceed are welcomed. Thanks, MeFi!

Hey, Are We Related?

jrishel — Fri, 01 May 2009 12:25:28 -0800

with all this internet connectedness, I've met a few different people online (either through facebook, twitter or geni) who share my not-very-common last name, and we've tried to determine if we're related by relating some of the oldest relatives we know who share the surname, but usually we don't find any overlap. As a genealogical novice, what should my next steps be in trying to find out if we're actually distantly related or if some clerk at Ellis Island just liked to give a bunch of French/German immigrants the same last name? I've used Geni, and most every relative I have an email address has joined, and we've filled in as far back as everyone living can remember. Poking around at familysearch.org (which I learned about from a previous AskMeFi) I have been able to confirm some birth and death dates and locations, but I'm not sure where to go next. Do we just keep filling out our trees and hope for a match?

Locating missing relatives in Scotland

mecran01 — Tue, 31 Mar 2009 11:21:25 -0800

My Father-in-law and wife are going to Edinburgh, Scotland this summer to try and locate his relatives. I thought I'd try to help by visiting geneaology forums and posting some information, but for the life of me I can't find a genealogy discussion forum that doesn't require a subscription. Is there such thing? In general, I am open to any tips about finding relatives in europe, but finding a good, free forum seems like it would be a good start. I can get help on the non-internet portions of this search (I live near Salt Lake City) but was wondering about online resources. Thank you!

And here's the information on the relatives, for what it's worth:

(from my wife)

Jame Cunningham (died 10/6/1876) --> married to Margaret White

They had 5 children:

Alexander Baike Cunningham
Susan Wallace
Walter Cunningham
Margaret Rennie
Janet Agnes Rennie (born 1847, died 1912 on 65 Bellevue Rd, Edinburgh) who was married to Gordon Rennie (born about 1845 and son of James Rennie and Annie Orr)

Janet Agnes and Gordon Rennie had 10 children born between 1856 and 1900:

Jesse Rennie
James Rennie
Maggie Rennie
Johanna Rennie
Jesse Rennie
Gordon Rennie
Agnes J C Rennie
William Rennie
Susan Rennie
Mary Rennie

Agnes JC Rennie emigrated to Detroit and is my grandmother.

We control the horozontal, they control the vertical

TigerMoth — Wed, 25 Mar 2009 16:17:50 -0800

GenealogyFilter: Looking for an application that represents lifespans down the vertical axis and allows durational events to span across the horizontal axis. And imports GEDCOM. Seen some old programs, and they look pretty Windows 3.0-y... Anything new under the sun? Web 2.0 stuff? I'm already using geni.com--I'd like to stretch the rectangles and slice with horizontal bars. A rainy Friday night, a bottle of Scotch, a random website asking me to type in some dates and WHAMO! nearly 3,000 names later (!) I've become the family genealogist. Even a trip to an abandoned family cemetery out of town last weekend...

Not real concerned with finding that I too am related to Charlemangne, or Ghandi, or Jesus or whatever, just kind of a fun puzzle. Especially since the economy has more or less turned work into old school Detention Hall.

I've got enough names now that I'm starting to see where families, geographies, and politics overlap. Interested to put in common events (1776, epidemics, wars, etc) to appreciate the bigger picture of these forgotten lives.

And, yes, I'm still enjoyng the Scotch...

Canucks

chickaboo — Mon, 09 Mar 2009 08:57:32 -0800

Help me understand emigration patterns of my ancestors. In my research, I've found a few (separate) instances of ancestors of mine emigrating from Canada to the U.S. in the 19th century, after (presumably) emigrating from Britain to Canada at some point prior.

It seems like a very Big Deal to cross the ocean so it seems to me that you would want to get it right the first time. Why would they go to Canada first and then the US?

I realize it's a sort of unanswerable question but I just wondered if conditions were more favorable for immigrants from Canada vs Europe at that point in time.

Lost in the family tree...

chickaboo — Mon, 16 Feb 2009 07:12:45 -0800

I've been sucked in by the hobby of genealogy. now what? Can you recommend some ways to stay organized and record my findings electronically that a - doesn't cost $13 a month a la ancestry and doesn't look completely cheesy/ Just looking for simple basic chart that might help me stay on track....

How much should I pay someone in Hungary?

Joe in Australia — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 22:39:27 -0800

How much should I offer someone in Hungary to photograph graves in a cemetery? I'm doing genealogical research and I need about a dozen graves photographed. I found someone willing to do it, and I don't want to either insult him or drive the price up.

What's in a name?

mooreeasyvibe — Mon, 08 Sep 2008 04:21:13 -0800

What are the meanings of the surnames Seliukova and Bessadna? We are studying genealogy in school.

I have two children in my class and all of the other English children found their names easily but two struggled to find anything.

Can anyone help or point me to a website where I can find something?

Many thanks

Papers written in a spidery hand

zadcat — Fri, 22 Aug 2008 09:53:59 -0800

Today I had a reason to be looking up a family document, and once again I became fascinated looking at the old family certificates and documents I have in my files. My sister and are both childless, there are no other close relatives, and although the documents have no obvious historic value it seems a pity they should eventually just get tossed out when I die.

I have a basic family tree which diagrams out the relationships between most of the people mentioned on the documents. Are there genealogists who take an interest in such things even for families they're not related to? Any other organizations I may not be thinking of that might have some interest in such things?

I'm in Canada, and the documents come from Canadian and British sources.

As of 2008, what can science tell me about my genetics thru DNA testing.

cadastral — Wed, 16 Apr 2008 06:20:55 -0800

Wondering if anyone here has had a Genealogical DNA test for purposes of learning more about your distant (ie. not recent/paternity) ancestors. I have questions about the differences (price, service, thoroughness) of the various companies offering this service, the type of data that different tests can produce, and ways this data can be (constructively) interpreted. I had heard of various folks having these tests done (one example of many) for all kinds of reasons. I was/am interested, and I researched it a bit. But I got overwhelmed somewhere between Y-chromosome DNA haplogroups and Mitochondrial DNA haplogroups, and started wondering just what, exactly, these tests could actually deliver.

Then, to confuse me even further, at minute 1:10 of this YouTube video, Christopher Hitchens says the following, which, if true, raises my estimation (and expectations) for these tests a hundred-fold:

"...and I, by the way, have been to the National Geographic... and had--as you can have, for a hundred bucks--my DNA analyzed. And I can show you on a map which part of Africa my ancestors come from. Looks like Angola, In my case."

So, MetaFilter... please clear my head. My questions (to start) are these:
• How much (and how specifically) can these tests tell me about my ancestry (best case/worst case)?
• What types of tests exist, and what are the strengths and weaknesses of each type?
• Which suppliers/labs dealing in these tests do you have a personal (even anecdotal) experience with that has led you to have either a high, or a low opinion of them?
• What price range are these tests?
• What combination of test_type/lab/other_variables will most likely produce the largest, most enormous and rich mountain of (worthwhile) interpretable data?
• What are the things that I am certainly overlooking that I should not be?

If this helps at all: I'm a white guy, mostly Northern European ancestry. I'm totally ignorant about, and incredibly stoked by the "non-mostly" part of that equation, and I'm chomping at the bit to get this done. Yes, it's vanity, but please indulge me this one thing. I'll wear the same shirt all next week in penance.

While I'm not very well-versed in the biological sciences, I'm not afraid of reading links you send or learning about it. In other words... not a "tell me like I'm 6-years-old" type of deal--more like a "tell me like I am an conscientious, interested, incoming freshman to your "intro to bio" class"... (or somewhere in-between). Many thanks.

How do I find members of my family who are overseas?

kldickson — Sat, 05 Apr 2008 20:57:06 -0800

How do I find family overseas? My mother has family who live in Poland and Australia, both of which have probably not been contacted for years. Nobody knows who they are. How do I go about finding them? (Re-establishing contact with them might be of some use in the future.)

Where can I find an affordable, thorough, genealogist to help me research my Irish ancestry?

pantufla — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 20:24:27 -0800

Where can I find an affordable, thorough, genealogist to help me research my Irish ancestry? I've been researching my Irish (primarily from Mayo and Monaghan) ancestors online, through Ancestry.com, and elsewhere, and I've hit a bit of a wall. I've gone back 2 or 3 generations, but the further I go back, the longer it's taking to find any information or documents. I'd like to hire someone who could take the information I have and extend my tree back another few generations. I'm on a budget, so hopefully a few hours of this person's time would be enough to help me break through the wall. I also would prefer that my ancestors do become Mormons in the process. Of course, if you can recommend any online resources, that'd be great too. Thanks!

Making More Work For Myself, One President at a Time

thanotopsis — Thu, 28 Feb 2008 07:48:17 -0800

Strategies for Research: I'd like to go through each of the US Presidents, and show my kids how they're related to each. George Washington was pretty easy, as his ancestry is detailed back to the Scottish kings, so I can show the kids how they're the 22nd cousins, 11 times removed of the first president of the US. The going hasn't been so easy, since, and I'm fishing for some suggestions on tactics I can take to make the going a little easier. I currently have subscriptions to Ancestry (world deluxe) and Burke's Peerage. I've been doing this for a few years online, now, so I'm pretty familiar with the resources on the web for this sort of information. What I'm really trying to ask is if there's a "best-practices" way of finding the particular attachment for which I'm looking most efficiently.

Take, for example, John Adams. I've got his family on both sides back 7-8 generations. I've still yet to find a common surname between our two branches. I suppose I could try working down some of those branches, and acquire some new surnames through descendants, but that seems like a lot of work.

Hopefully, someone out there has done a linking project like this, and has some pointers on how to proceed. My worst fear is that I'll end up spinning my wheels on a bunch of dead ends and eventually get burned out looking for a link.

Where exactly did my ancestors disembark in New York when they arrived from Ireland?

pantufla — Wed, 19 Dec 2007 11:08:55 -0800

Where exactly did my ancestors disembark in New York when they arrived from Ireland? I have 2 arrivals I am researching

First, my grand aunt left Cobh, Ireland on the Carinthia (Cunard line), on September 25th, 1927, arriving in New York on October 2nd, 1927. She was 17 years old, and entering the US for the first time. What dock would she have arrived at? What would the landing procedure entail?

Second,
My grandfather, his wife, and 2 kids left Londonderry on August 7th, 1935 aboard the Caledonia (Anchor shipping line), traveling 3rd class, and arrived in New York on August 16th, 1935. They were re-entering the U.S. with re-entry permits. What dock would they have arrived at? What would the landing procedure entail?

The family legend is that these folks did not enter the US through Ellis Island, but I'd like to know exactly where they did enter.

Any info greatly appreciated!

Alberto

The oldest continuous active and believable genealogy?

Flunkie — Wed, 24 Oct 2007 18:36:40 -0800

What's the oldest believable continuous genealogy for a live person? Lots of people can believably trace their genealogy back to, say, Charlemagne and his forefathers (Charles Martel and so forth). And I'm aware that there are claimed lines of descent back from Charlemagne (and pretty much every other European king, count, and local bandit warlord with a sense of the value of pretension) all the way back to Adam and Eve. However, this latter part is, shall we say, dubious at best, on several levels.

What live person or people can trace their genealogy (at least a strand of it) continuously back the furthest in history, in a believable way? Where by "believable", I guess I mean something stronger: backed by generally accepted historical fact.

I'm guessing it might be the Japanese emperor and his family. The claimed line of descent from the first emperor goes back to at least 660 BC; a lot of this is legendary, though, so not believable, but they've still got to be able to go a long way back, I would imagine.

To be clear, of course the farther that you go back in a genealogy, even one that's "believable" in the above sense, the more likely you are to have a link from father to son where the father wasn't really biologically the father. I understand this, and am not concerned with it with respect to my curiosity regarding this question, so please don't worry about that fact when answering. As long as it can be historically shown that the guy was, at that time, generally accepted to be the father, that's good enough for the purposes of this question.

Was this dude my great-grandfather...or an IMPOSTOR?!

dumbledore69 — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 12:15:32 -0800

If my maternal grandfather was my (alleged?) great-grandfather's biological son, why would his last name be different from both of his parents'? In my great-grandfather's obituary (1896-1960), which I found online and am positive is the right person, his children (who were my great-aunts/uncles & grandfather) were listed.

All male/unmarried children of my great-grandfather listed in that obit have a completely different last name from that of my great-grandfather & great-grandmother. This completely different last name is my mother's maiden name.

So, it seems like he is probably not really my great-grandfather after all, and that maybe these were children from a previous marriage of my great-grandmother's.

I'm trying to figure out if there was any reason why they would change the last names of their children if they are, in fact, both his biological parents. My Google attempts turned up nothing but discussions on giving a child both parents' last names.

So...is there a reason why a pioneering family in the US Northwest (actually, in a territory at the time) would change the last names of both of their children?

It is definitely not to make the name more "Americanized". My great-grandparents' last names was very "typical" American, it's a normal English word, actually. My grandfather's last name, however, seems to be German.

Thoughts?

One swab to rule them all.

Atreides — Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:30:59 -0800

Which of the genealogical DNA testing companies is the best for testing Y-Chromosome information? Experiences?

Family Photo Sharing

RavinDave — Sat, 11 Aug 2007 17:05:33 -0800

GenealogyFilter: I need a scanning strategy and general advice for family photos. My plan is to grab me one of those big ol' WD MyBook USB drives, grab my computer & flatbed scanner, make the rounds of several relatives and grab as many family photos as I can.

Seems straightforward, eh? Scan photos, slap'em on a CD and pass'em around to the family. Lots of nice highly detailed antique stuff. Some beautiful sepia tints -- not to mention regular documents. But every time I sit down to do this, I freeze. I just can't settle on an optimum size and pixel resolution. And I'm also I'm torn between doing neutral scans or pre-tweaking them.

I need some words o' wisdom.

The link between Mormons and genealogy

Harry — Fri, 27 Apr 2007 07:47:24 -0800

I'm quite ignorant about religion in general, but: Why are Mormons so into genealogy? This might be a very over-generalized question, but it seems that genealogy websites and Mormons are never far apart? So, my (possibly deceptively) simple question is: what's up with that?

Anyone know anything about "probate genealogy"?

lackutrol — Thu, 22 Mar 2007 22:57:20 -0800

A friend has been contacted by a private investigator who represents a "successional" or "probate" genealogist in Europe. I was very suspicious, perhaps because of the amount of entertaining Nigerian spam I've received, but at first glance things seem relatively legitimate. Is this a common thing, and what steps do one take to deal with it? The private investigator has a bunch of correct information on my friend's family, hold a PI license that has not been the subject of any complaints, and as yet has not asked for any signatures or money.

Their Web site indicates that down the line they may ask for a "Disclosure of Inheritance and Rights Contract," after which they would explain the nature of the estate, and a power of attorney, presumably very limited, to deal with the estate.

It also indicates that they would probably take a fee of 35% before taxes on whatever estate they've discovered.

Is this sort of thing normal? Is such a fee common? Is there a place where one might look for a lawyer specializing in such things? I'd like to know if MeFiers have knowledge or experience of this sort of thing.

What blood relation am I to Madonna?

sjvilla79 — Wed, 28 Feb 2007 14:22:43 -0800

What blood relation am I to Madonna? I just recently found out that the daughter of my nonna's uncle's son (Silvio P. Ciccone) is Madonna. How does that make me related to her?

Paying for a family tree?

amber_dale — Sun, 11 Feb 2007 08:23:50 -0800

Am I related to George Washington? I have a bet with my boyfriend but don't want to do the genealogical research myself. While discussing this Barack Obama story with me, my boyfriend claimed that I was as closely related to George Washington due to my descent from Western European Christian stock. I don't have the time or inclination to research my family tree, but I'd be willing to pay a person or service to trace it for me. Is this available online?