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I’d like advice on how to either leave my church as gracefully as possible, or find a way to reconcile my lack of faith with my continued church membership.

cheapskatebay — Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:50:41 -0800

I’d like advice on how to either leave my church as gracefully as possible, or find a way to reconcile my lack of faith with my continued church membership. Inspired by the thoughtful replies to two recent AskMe questions (here and here), I also have a question about atheism, but I come at it from a different angle: how can I deal with my lack of faith when I’ve been a committed church member? The real kicker is that I’ve never believed in the first place.

Although I’m not posting this anonymously, I seldom have the opportunity to post to Ask Metafilter, and I’m a slow typist, too. I’ll therefore try to provide a lot of detail, with a truncated version of the situation at the end for those who’d prefer not to wade through an extremely long question.

The long story: I’m a member of a Presbyterian Church (USA) congregation, and I have been for 10 years. I also regularly attended a Presbyterian church as a child. Over the years gradually I’ve assumed a leadership role in my church and I now serve as an Elder (part of the elected board that leads the church) and also as the church’s treasurer.

My problem is straightforward: I am an atheist. Call me agnostic if you like – I’m certainly willing to accept that the existence or non-existence of God is a question I can’t satisfactorily answer. More accurately, I’m what I’ve seen referred to as an “apatheist” or “practical atheist” – someone for whom religion simply isn’t important.

I’m just not a spiritual person – I don’t wonder about an afterlife I don’t believe exists, I don’t dwell on the (non-?)existence of a higher power, I don’t worry about which religion is “right” and which is “wrong,” and I never have worried about these “big picture” issues, even as a child. I don’t have any reason to believe there is a God, and I therefore don’t have that belief – and never have. I certainly don’t think that religious belief is a necessary component of living a virtuous or moral life.

You might reasonably ask why someone like me attends church in the first place. I like going to my church for several reasons. We’re one of the more liberal denominations in terms of our philosophies and outlook, which manifests itself (in our church, at least) as being very gay-friendly, environmentally aware, and committed to issues of social justice. Our mission dollars support programs that empower poor women and children in our community and around the world. We have lots of older members who have tremendously interesting life experiences and perspectives to share. I have the tradition of having attended worship services in this faith for most of my life, which is a source of comfort. My wife also grew up Presbyterian, and we were married by a Presbyterian minister. She is a believing Christian and we’re bringing up our two young children in the church, as well.

It’s been very easy to fall into the routines of membership, and as I’ve done so, I’ve found myself increasingly taking on a leadership role within the church. It’s a small church, and anyone with the slightest interest tends to get recruited to help in some way, shape or form. I’m grateful for the good people who’ve served as mentors to me, and who’ve afforded me opportunities to share my talents.

So, why would I leave, particularly now? An essential part of being a member of our congregation, I would argue, is either being a believer in God or, at least, making a good-faith effort to believe. I’ve never been a believer, nor a person interested in making that kind of good-faith effort, and as far as I can tell, that distinguishes me from everyone else. I’ve even lied about my belief when I’ve professed my faith publicly. What I’ve done is dishonest and unethical, and I’m tired of pretending to be a believer when I’m not one. I am increasingly close to concluding that my only responsible course of action is to leave the church. Whether that is an abrupt or gradual process, I’m not sure, but it doesn’t feel right to feign belief that I don’t have.

My ability to deal with this cognitive dissonance waxes and wanes over time, but the long-term trend has definitely tipped toward my feeling increasingly awkward as a church member. In the past year, in particular, I’ve become very uncomfortable. As my responsibilities increase, I feel like I’m living more and more of a lie.

One might wonder if I’m simply overwhelmed by the duties I’ve assumed. While I am very busy with work and other family and charitable obligations in addition to my work for the church, I truly don’t think this is a case of being overworked in my church volunteer duties. When I’ve been overwhelmed with church-related commitments in the past, I’ve found ways to cut back, and everyone at the church has been very supportive of my doing so. In fact, I recently became the church’s treasurer and I really enjoy the job – dealing with investments and budgeting is a nice fit with my interests and skills.

In all candor, I also think that part of what may be increasing my dissatisfaction at this time is the continued decline of our membership, and what that portends for the future. We lose perhaps 5% of our membership on a year-over-year basis and we add far too few new members to reverse that trend. I feel like we’re in the midst of a protracted death as a congregation and as a denomination – both literally and figuratively –and, while I’m ashamed of feeling that way, it surely has an effect.

When I see the numbers showing the declining membership figures for our denomination and our church – it’s not all due to death – I know that I simply cannot be the only person who feels this way. Still, I don’t know of anyone who’s left our church recently – at least, no one in a leadership role. Our church embraces modernity and education, it’s about as liberal in its theology as they come, and it’s a nice place to congregate. It would be harder to leave, I’d think, than it would be to leave a fundamentalist church! Still, it isn’t a social club, and I’m not comfortable treating it as such. Maybe there are atheists or agnostics aplenty in the pews, but I’m certainly not aware of them.

Additional factors/complications/background:

1. I don’t know how this would play out with my wife and children. It’s not uncommon for our church members to attend services with their children but without their spouses; in those instances, though, the non-member spouse (who is usually the husband/father) has never attended. I can’t think of a single instance where someone in a couple has simply stopped attending worship services, let alone someone in a leadership role. My wife knows of my lack of faith and is understanding and supportive, but she’d prefer that I continue to attend worship services, special events and committee meetings. I think I benefited from attending Presbyterian services as a child, and I have no problem at all with my children continuing to do so. I worry, though, that this would be a source of considerable tension within our family.
2. There are a lot of people at my church who’ve reached out to me and made me feel welcome and special. I admire, respect and love them deeply. Leaving them and potentially losing their friendship would be wrenching.
3. Our church, and our denomination, almost seem to expect a certain level of faithlessness. Maybe it’s assumed to be transitory, not permanent, but questioning one’s faith is encouraged in our tradition. I feel like making a clean break would be a challenge with this mindset being prevalent.
4. I’ve made leadership commitments that I think I should honor, notwithstanding my personal lack of belief.
5. Our pastor is young and relatively new to our church. I’m very fond of him and I think it would be very difficult for him to accept my leaving, and I’ve specifically avoided speaking with him as a result.
6. I should note that I’m not interested in joining, say, a Unitarian church, at least at this point. I don’t want to join a new congregation, even if that congregation would welcome an atheist like me – I’m more concerned about extricating myself from, or learning to live among, my current congregation.
7. Maybe I’m placing too much emphasis on my lack of faith… I just feel like someone who believes in God at some point, then loses that faith, is in a different situation than me, who’s never believed and who’s lied about that for years. If you think I’m making too much of this distinction, let me know.

What I really want, to be honest, is to remain a church member. I like many things about being a member of my church. I don’t mind going to the services with my wife and kids on Sundays. I like the fact that we’re liberal. I even kind of like the occasionally grueling committee work. I just don’t see how I can continue to be a member if I’m neither a believer in the existence of God nor interested in changing that stance. I understand that my position on staying or leaving might seem very stark and draconian, but I’ve been in the gray area long enough to be disillusioned with remaining there. Nevertheless, I’d be very interested in hearing any stories of anyone who’s been able to overcome such feelings.

If you’ve been in a similar situation and have separated from membership, how did you do so? Was it sudden or abrupt? Did you fulfill terms on committees and boards, or leave them when you left the church?

The short story: I’m neither ashamed nor proud of my atheism; frankly, I’m apathetic about matters of faith, spirituality and belief. I grew up Presbyterian and I find myself taking on a larger leadership role within my church. If there is a way to reconcile my lack of belief with continued church membership, I’m all for that, but I don’t see how that can be done. If I decide to leave, how can I do so gracefully and with dignity? Are there any books, resources, or personal stories that you can share that address this situation?

Thank you for reading this and for your thoughts.

how can we get married in OK without God?

Anonymous — Tue, 28 Jul 2009 21:29:04 -0800

We'd like to get married in Oklahoma, and we were hoping for a courtroom marriage for now with a big to-do later on, but it turns out that the state has stopped providing this service! We've googled extensively and can seemingly only find information on how to procure the marriage license itself. we have ten days after that to "get married".

We're not religious, and would strongly prefer to be married by someone other than a minister. where do we look, and who should we ask?

Help this struggling atheist get over her desire to believe.

lysistrata — Fri, 06 Feb 2009 10:14:34 -0800

After years of drifting along as a "spiritual but not religious" believer I am beginning to come to terms with the fact that I'm not actually a believer at all. I am an atheist with a lingering but unwanted desire to believe and it is making me miserable. Can you help me move past this? I was raised in a nominally Christian home but left the church at thirteen. From that point on and up until a few years ago I believed and took comfort in the idea that there was something larger than myself--a greater power that I could turn to in prayer in times of need--but never belonged to any organized religious group. When asked I would refer to myself as "spiritual but not religious." While I didn't belong to any particular group I definitely believed and had faith. Faith that at one point I thought was unshakeable. While this was fulfilling in some respects, over the years, due to many events big and small, I have moved further and further away from belief. In the last two years or so I have slowly started to realize that in my heart of hearts I don't believe at all anymore. In some ways this is a relief and even a little exciting. But I am also feeling a deep sense of loss and hurt not only because I feel as if I have wasted a good deal of my time on something that wasn't true but also because I can't let go of the desire to believe. I feel as if I am going to have to give up my sense of wonder at the world. I feel like I'm giving up the last remaining connection I have to deeper mysteries and that loss hurts me even though I now realize that those mysteries which captivated me for so long are likely not real at all. I took great comfort in my faith and being stripped of it leaves me feeling vulnerable and lonely.

I basically feel like I am stuck between belief and non-belief and I can't move in either direction. If I discard it all and move on to a more materialistic view of the universe I am losing something that has been a big part of my life for a long time but I can no longer pretend that I believe when I don't.

I want to move past this desire to have faith. I don't wish to return to religion. I would be deluding myself if I did. I just want to know how to get rid of the leftover trappings of religious belief. I want to turn this around so that instead of leaving religion behind I am moving towards something better, clearer and more rational. I'm just not sure how to do that. I don't personally know very many atheists and the few that I do were never religious to begin with so I don't know how common these feelings are.

I am looking for advice or anecdotes from formerly religious atheists or agnostics who have found themselves in a similar situation. Did you feel a sense of loss when you "deconverted"? Did it pass? Has your life improved since you moved away from religion? How has it improved? Do you ever feel as if you are missing out on something (either spiritually or culturally) because you are not religious? Are there any books out there that deal with this issue? Am I always going to feel this confused?

Oh Christmas Tree, Oh Christmas Tree

netbros — Sun, 07 Dec 2008 10:56:43 -0800

Do atheists and agnostics put up Christmas trees? I was raised in the Christian faith, but consider myself agnostic now. It was tradition in my family as a youngster to have a Christmas tree. As an adult, I have usually done this, in fact, I just put one up in my home today. I'm sitting here wondering... why?

Atheist looking for inspiring -religion-free-please-!- references... (more inside)

Jireel — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 00:51:46 -0800

Atheist looking for inspiring -religion-free-please-!- references... as long as they don't involve any personified or anthropopmorphed Divinity. Following Can you think of any " " "daily devotional" " " or inspiring book for atheists, that one could pick up every single day and read from for a short moment in order to get a fresh start ?

I wondered if Unitarian universalists have any publications - any UU out there ? Philosophic writings work, maybe even Baha'i stories could, but even baha'ism is considered somehow religious

I thought of The Prophet, by Khalil Gibran.. and can't think of anything else apart from zen writings.
Any Ideas ? thanx

Help me become the best atheist chaplain I can be.

internet!Hannah — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 10:27:08 -0800

Help me become the best atheist chaplain I can be. I'm in the ROTC at my University, and as a cadet master sergeant this year, I've somewhat taken it upon myself to assume the unofficial role of "atheist chaplain" for the Corps. There's no official position for this, though I'm told there was once an actual Atheist Chaplain some years ago (however, it seems to have been done more as a protest than anything, which has engendered some resentment for getting the position reinstated), but I've found myself filling the vacuum anyways.

The Corps has ~2,000 cadets. I've started in my major unit (one of 9 units) by getting the names of the atheist and agnostic freshmen cadets (as well as a deist and a neo-pagan), and I took 5 of them with me to the school's Agnostic and Atheist Student Group, which was a hit both with the freshmen and the organization. My current plans include trying to get all of the irreligious freshmen in the Corps to attend these meetings with me, pending cooperation with the Corps-wide Chaplain on just who those freshmen are. The AASG is a debate group that discusses such topics as morality without religion and so forth, and is actually a really fun group, so I'm definately going to be pushing it for these cadets.

However, since we're in a very conservative, religious university in Texas, these freshmen are getting inundated with religious pressure, and I want to expand my help to include something that passes as more of a alternative to all of the bible studies and prayer sessions they're constantly getting offered. (To get an idea of the atmosphere I'm talking about, we freethinkers sit through a mimimum of two prayers a day at morning and evening chow, and every speaker for every event feels the need to quote half of the bible. It does get a little old.)

I'm short on ideas of what all I can do for the freshmen, though. I've been thinking along the lines of having some group relaxed dinners (alternative to chow) so that they can get to know one another and realize they aren't alone, which would also let me keep tabs on if any are getting any harassment within their outfits (though in my experience, 95% of the reaction I got was, if not positive, then at least no worse than good-natured ribbing. Then again, I also know the Bible better than just about anyone else in my unit, which is a great defense against the conversion-minded).

What else could I be doing for them? I have a pretty good selection of Sagan and Dawkins and so forth, so I guess I could do either a borrow-a-book or book study thing, if there's any interest. Or maybe once monthly meetings about stuff like what it's like to be an atheist in the military (though not all are military bound)? There is an obnoxious attitude of "no atheists in foxholes" that I find offensive and I would like to try and counter.

So, please, does anyone have any suggestions? The normal chaplain types do bible studies, devotionals, church carpooling, BBQs, and general counseling, and nontheistic equivalents would be welcomed.

Please note, I am not trying to make waves with anyone. I will not be challenging prayers, or attacking the current chaplain system, so please don't make suggestions that would just create resentment for atheists.

A grey wedding?

Anonymous — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 13:50:55 -0800

Anyone ever heard of a wedding that was a cross between an atheist and a Christian ceremony? So I'm thinking about marriage with my lady. No time soon, but I'm the kind of guy who thinks about these kind of things. Only trouble is, she's a lapsed kind of an Anglican, and I'm a devout if open minded Atheist/Universalist/Whatever.

Now I'm not going to enjoy a Christian ceremony, that would be all kinds of hypocrisy for me. But she's been in the choir of her local church since she was eight, knows the vicar personally etc, and has probably been planning a great white wedding since she was six years old. So there're no easy answers here.

In the normal scheme of things, say I was Hindu and she was a Mormon, we'd probably just have a non-religious wedding and say no more about it. But a non-religious wedding in our case would clearly be me getting what I want, so that's no kind of answer.

Surely this is a problem that has been faced before? I'm guessing in most situations one partner steamrollers the other and a side is chosen (or more likely, one set of parents does the steamrollering), but I'm thinking there must be alternatives. Has anyone ever heard of a half-Christian ceremony? Maybe there would be a mix of biblical and non-biblical readings, some non-committal but vaguely spiritual vows read out? Perhaps the whole thing could be officiated by a vicar, but in a non-official capacity?

The other alternative would be a Unitarian Universalist ceremony, although that would strike both of as pretty weird. Any thoughts? I can't believe I'm the first person to have thought about this, but my google skills have revealed nothing.

Where are the real militant atheists?

DetonatedManiac — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 22:18:23 -0800

Are there any true "militant atheism" organizations or "preachers" out there? I mean real extremist atheism? Like "Death to all believers" type extreme? If not, why not? I was just watching the CNN special on "god's warriors", which got me thinking about the relationship between belief and violence. Then I read the wikipedia on atheism which mentions that often the term "militant" is attached to atheism when that is not really an accurate qualifier. They are using militant as a pejorative when what they are really saying is "committed atheist" or "firm atheist", not someone who dresses up in fatigues and commits acts of terrorism, or advocates blowing up buildings they don't agree with (ala Islamic terrorists and Christian abortion bombers).

Judaism, Marxism, heck even Hindus and Buddhists have their fringe sects of fundamentalists and extremists who advocate violence.

So ARE there any actual atheist groups that advocate or commit serious criminal activity? if there are, why don't they get more press since every other religious faction already hates atheists and looks for any excuse to show how being godless is evil?

If not, why not? you'd think that atheists would be the most extreme, after all religious zealots just believe they are right, while atheists know they are right based on all logic, evidence and fact... not to mention that persecution usually breads an overly paranoid and defensive mentality, and no group has been more systematically persecuted by ALL religions through history than atheists/infidels/heretics/nonbelievers/freethinkers etc.

(full disclosure, I loosely consider myself Buddhist)

eBay shipper sent me a religious tract - should I note this in feedback?

Cranialtorque — Sat, 26 Jul 2008 21:05:36 -0800

An eBay purchase just arrived. I have no complaint at all about the item, and it was shipped quickly. The seller included a religious tract in the package, though, which bugs me. I would like to note this in the feedback, politely, as a negative. It seems reasonable to note something about the transaction that I disliked, but worry that it may not be worth the potential hassle. Yes, I am an atheist. No, I don't make a habit of provoking religious folks. I do not appreciate being witnessed to, proselytized to, or preached at, especially when it invades my everyday business. This is not a Jack Chick level of tract, not hate-spewing or overly gory. But I don't enjoy "Turn to JESUS or you will burn FOREVER!" being a part of this transaction.

I do not plan to actually leave negative feedback, as I am happy with the item and the shipping. My plan is to mention it as a negative in the comment section.

My concern is not that the seller might leave me a negative feedback; who cares. It is that this action could either trigger a flurry of email or snailmail from the seller (and his fellow congregants) or some sort of dispute with eBay, and that it just could be a big headache. (I'm not particularly worried about any live harassment, as we live on opposite sides of the continent.) When I transpose the situation to a physical retailer, I think I would act similarly, and I think I would be unhappy with myself if I let this go.

What do you think, hivemind?

Converting to Judaism, but secular / atheist?

Meatbomb — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 02:39:10 -0800

Converting to Judaism, but secular / atheist? This idea has been growing in my brain for quite some years now, but in recent months it has started to push itself forward quite insistently. I feel absolutely ripped off that I was not born a Jew, and I want to be one.

The catch is I am strongly atheist, and have no plans to change that. But there are a lot of Jews who don't believe, right?

Would it be possible to find a Rabbi that would let me into the tribe? I've read most of the top Internet resources on the subject, but it seems like even for Reform Judaism I'd have to believe in God to get started, and Humanistic Judaism seems pretty fringe, and I don't think it would qualify me for the right to aliya if I wanted to do that at some point in the future.

I am sorry because I know this sounds like I am just riffing and goofing off here but I am serious. Any ideas or advice?

Stuck between Rev and a hard place

Anonymous — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 18:00:48 -0800

Again, my childhood reverend is trying to convince me to be religious. How do I deal with him? Religion is a very tender subject in my family since my temporary estrangement from them regarding my non-belief in God. Only after coming out as a non-religious adult, a few painful years of not talking and then a gradual return to normalcy have we gotten along, and during all that time, I refused to let religion become a topic of conversation because I know how much it hurts them that I'm not Christian. As a sign of deference and respect toward my parents, I attend church with them when I am home, but I do not take communion or otherwise participate in the service.

Ever since they found out about my nonbelief, I get an impassioned phone call every year or so from my toolbox of a childhood reverend encouraging me to come back to God, reminding me that if I were to die in a car accident, "there are only two outcomes". This time around, I told him that I won't, in fact, go to hell, because hell does not exist and a back and forth about my lack of faith ensued, in which I finally told him in so many words that I don't believe in God, most likely won't believe in God in the future, and because of this, am not comfortable returning to church. I know I shouldn't have engaged him, but I can't stand his repeated verbal assault and blatant disrespect of my privacy and life choices and it feels like honesty is the only way to get him to listen and stop. I am grown, married, and live away from home, and he still won't lay off. Every time, he will tattle to my parents about the nature of our conversations; this time, I'm very afraid that it will result in another estrangement period. It's killing me--I can't lie, but I can't bend over and take it every time he feels the need to remind me of my supposed fiery future.

What do I say to this guy? What do I say to my parents? In case it's relevant, I was raised in a very conservative Lutheran church.

The Picky Introvert's Guide to Making Friends?

Anonymous — Fri, 16 May 2008 07:02:30 -0800

I'm a male introvert with very, very few close friends. I can make casual friends no problem, but I'm rather particular about the type of people I'd want to be serious friends with. Difficulty: I'm an atheist liberal eco-friendly vegetarian tech nerd who doesn't drink, smoke, or do drugs. Meeting people casually has never been an issue; I'm plenty friendly and can "play the part" pretty well, but when it comes to strong friendships I'm pretty easily turned off. I don't like people who drink, I don't like religious or "spiritual" people, I don't like conservatives, and I don't like luddites. (Note: I'm BASICALLY Straight Edge, save caffeine and sex, but I hate the people and music that go along with the scene so I don't use the label.)

Finding a godless liberal who doesn't eat meat isn't terribly difficult, so it seems like the biggest problem is the anti-drinking/smoking/drugging part. I'm definitely an introvert - I live with my girlfriend of 3 years, work full-time for a tech company, and neither of us go to parties or bars or are terribly social. Weekends are spent together, either out doing simple activities or inside watching movies, etc. We're homebodies. I can entertain myself just fine, but I feel like I could unlock more islands, so to speak, of my life and myself by making some close friends. (I've been playing a lot of GTA, sorry about the metaphor.)

So, please, help me out here. I just feel like if I'm going to invest in a friendship, it had better be with someone who I respect. Settling for less seems like a recipe for disaster. Advice? Where/how do I find like-minded people?

(PS - If you happen to fit the qualities I mentioned, uh, we should be friends! Leave a comment and I'll msg you from my real account.)

I DO SO HAVE MORALS! WAAAH! YOU'RE JUST MEAN!

Phalene — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 19:16:45 -0800

Atheism filter: How do you deal with the awkward un-comfortableness and sense of betrayal when someone indicates complete non-belief is cuckoo, or inherently immoral? This sort of statement is never made with malice in mind, but it hurts my feelings. I am an atheist. It's never been a big deal to me, because I live in mostly secular Canada, my parents were atheists so I had no big rejection/coming out odyssey. I have religious friends, and while their habits may seem a bit strange to me, I have Aspergers so everything- humans do is strange. But throughout my life when I make friends, the conversation may turn theological.

At which point, the person will usually declare equal toleration for all beliefs, except you know, people who don't believe in some sort of universal great spirit. Because you know those people eat babies and they couldn't imagine being friends with an atheist. While not knowing I am an atheist because it's never been an important part of my life.

For example my university prof declared that atheists are arrogant in tones of disdain. Now while I'm willing to say that the universe is indeed subject to debate, I was hurt. If he'd said 'Christians are arrogant' he'd be pilloried, but for some reason just because the Great Spirit all these people believe in refuses to talk to me, my beliefs are somehow intolerant and inferior. :(

Some friends have made the matter even more awkward by flat out asking “You believe in god, right?” Coworkers earnestly tell me that they believe all religions are wonderful and that you ‘just have to believe in something’.

I've sort of stopped attending the prof's class, which will kill my logic mark, because he made me so uncomfortable with repeated 'atheists = hidebound and unable to think outside the box’ that even after figuring out that his problem was that he’d been reading Dawkin’s work and extrapolated it to all atheists, I don’t want to see him again.

How can I handle irrational arguments like ‘You need god to be moral’? I don’t like being called immoral. I have morals because I have empathy. They wouldn’t like it if I questioned their morality so whatever happened to ‘Do unto others?’

I feel scared, isolated and just a little teary eyed just thinking about religious ostracism, which I also feel embarrassed about. Maybe it was childhood where mistakenly mentioning ‘atheist’ on the schoolyard led to earnest admonitions I was going to hell that makes me anxious, but I feel like I’m in social hell right now when people I like or want to be friends with keep making innocent exclusory statements.

So, how do I handle it? Crusade for atheist rights? Nod and smile? Therapy so I won’t feel so insecure? Fake a conversion?

How can this pilgrim acquire faith?

mr_book — Sun, 10 Feb 2008 11:24:00 -0800

Please help this petty agnostic acquire faith in a higher power. I am a 27 yr old agnostic who has attempted the practice of several different religions over the years, eventually calcifying into what my friends have called a "big, bad atheist." After realizing a few years back that atheism wasn't the way to go for me, I started saying that I was an agnostic. I'm not sure that that label fits either.

Every time I've tried experimenting with a religion, I've been fascinated by all of the rituals and mythology which went along with it, but I've never been able to really buy into it. I can't seem to believe concepts like resurrection, reincarnation, angels, the goddess, animistic spirits, et cetera.

I dislike this. I don't want to go through my life not experiencing Faith. I've talked to several people about this, looked online, read books, but what it almost always comes down to is: "If you don't have faith, you can't accept an explanation. If you do have faith, no explanation is necessary." That's all well and good, but it doesn't help me. It's the philosophical equivalent of saying: "Tough rocks, kid."

I've recently come to the conclusion that even if reincarnation, resurrection, et cetera are complete bullshit, I think my experience of the world would be better and fuller is they were not.

I've received advice like "do community service" and "visit a church more often" and "pray" but that's not helpful. I'm not looking for morality - that I can do on my own. I'm also not looking for a religion - I don't need a spiritual bureaucracy telling me how to live my life. What I'm interested in is acquiring Faith itself, not its trappings.

If there are any personal experiences out there which can help, or any advice toward the subject, I'd be grateful. I'm interested in an actual method for acquiring Faith. Literally, how do I get it?

Are there any terms for "atheism" or "irreligious" that aren't negative?

Kattullus — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:58:30 -0800

Are there any terms for "atheism" or "irreligious" that aren't negative? That is, don't mean that someone is "not a believer." It doesn't matter what language the terms are in or if they're archaic or coinages that never took root. I don't mean that "atheism" or "irreligious" are derogatory but that they are definitions away from something.

The closest terms I've come up with are "skeptic" and "free-thinker" but that seems to me to apply more to agnostics than atheists or, at the least, to both groups but not atheists exclusively.

Hold the prayer and pass the potatoes

photoslob — Mon, 24 Dec 2007 21:56:40 -0800

How do I respectfully yet firmly request that a member of my extended family not say a prayer before a meal in my home? I'll be having family over informally on xmas day and we'll be eating sometime in the afternoon. My wife and I are not religious yet my mother-in-law and her husband are in-your-face-born-agains. Their brand of christianity compels them to wear their spirituality on their sleeve. I've asked politely in the past that they give the before-the-meal prayer a rest when in my home and it's always uncomfortable.

Christian treacle

levijk — Sat, 24 Nov 2007 11:16:00 -0800

How should I respond to syrupy Christian emails? I am in my immediate family's address books and they like to forward syrupy sweet Christian emails to me even though they know I am an atheist. They also send me personalized ecards with Christian platitudes because they think I "know the truth but choose not to believe it," if that's even logically possible. I've ignored this for the longest time but I'm finding it more and more disrespectful. I do not send them atheist ecards. Should I start? I figured just go the direct route: I appreciate the card but not the motivation behind it...? Maybe I should diffuse the situation with humor? All ideas welcome.

Help an atheist make a reading list.

internet!Hannah — Tue, 06 Nov 2007 18:45:43 -0800

Help me find some good atheist reading materials for my birthday. I'm a strong (but not particularly militaristic) atheist that attends a very conservative and religious public university. In fact, I am the only atheist in my dorm. To stave off feeling like an island of atheism, I attend the local atheist/agnostic club meetings (along with my fervently catholic roommate, funnily enough), but lately I've been feeling a worn out by all the sheer amount of overt Christianity I face every day (for instance, I sit through a good two or three unavoidable prayers a day). To help combat this, I'd like to buy myself some good atheist or atheism-related books for my birthday next week.

I'm not too sure where to start, though--I liked The Stranger in high school, as well as Sartre's plays, but I don't know where to go from there. I wouldn't mind getting into some essay works and some books on philosophy, but I have little philosophical background. I'm also not interested in those "Religion is the source of all ills" books--if I subscribed to that belief I wouldn't have lasted a week at this school.

So really, the question is, do you have any good recommendations for me? All suggestions are welcome, from any genre.

(As a point of interest, I've read the Bible and the Qu'ran, and am very solidly versed in Christian theology, so I'm not going to shy away from anything that involves religion from an atheist perspective.)

Conduct at for a ceremony at a church I left?

Anonymous — Sun, 29 Apr 2007 16:54:33 -0800

How do I conduct myself at an important family function in a church I left on a sour note? A few years ago, I had a falling-out with my family when I admitted to them that I was atheist. Since then, I have moved out and graduated college, and over time we have become close again, but mostly avoid talking about church and God for obvious reasons.

My brother is about to be confirmed and I am invited to the ceremony and party. The day will be filled with Jesus this, Moses that, Abraham hit me with a whiffle ball bat. I haven't stepped foot inside my old church since the falling-out. Being relatively new to this whole godless thing, I'm not sure how I should conduct myself before people (old church acquaintances, the pastor, and others) I have been told I have "lied to", "hurt" and "wronged". I do not want to talk about Jesus or God, as I do not want to patronize people I have every reason to respect. Because of the way I left the church, everyone would see right through that hypocrisy anyways. I worry that I'm going to appear to be bad luck at the ceremony, considering I left it only a short time after my own confirmation, which might imply certain things about myself or my family to the church.

How should I congratulate my brother? Should I say "congratulations on your achievements" and leave it at that? How can I answer the prying questions about my choices and life that I am sure I will get (my church is packed with nosy types with no tact), without taking the focus off the fact that the day is about my brother and not me? I don't want to lie, but I don't want to be snarky.

Equally Yoked

ztdavis — Tue, 10 Apr 2007 17:03:39 -0800

How any have mefites in christian-atheist relationships and marriages fared? What advice do you have? What do you think about 2 Corinthians 6:14-15? I'm atheist and my fiancée is Christian. We both feel strongly about our beliefs, our love, and respect for one another. Before anything else, I'd like to request snark be kept to a minimum. If you really want to vent, start a thread on MeTa.

A backgrounder:

I'm 22 and have been atheist for 8 or so years. I am a skeptic of most everything, but at the base of it I believe there is a rational non-supernatural explanation for everything. I spent a lot of time in high school trying to prove that God does not exist and found no suitable proof, which in turn led me to believe that religion is a matter of faith. I have none, hence my atheism, but I am willing to warrant that others do, hence their own beliefs. I was raised Christian, have a pretty good understanding of Christian beliefs and doctrines, and respect many many Christians. I make a big distinction between "Christians" that are homophobic, judgmental, full of themselves, closed-minded and hateful as opposed to Christians that are welcoming, loving, helpful in their communities, and not afraid to associate with and be around us sinner types.

Which brings us to my fiancée, Julie (and brand new member jsmarie).

She is 23 and has always been Christian. She believes that Christ is the only way to heaven and salvation (and, as a corollary, that I'm not on a path to heaven). She believes in the Bible. She has a personal relationship with Christ, and that is at the crux of her beliefs. She is aware she sins and doesn't claim any hoity-toityness She does not believe that because I am an evil sinnerman that she should avoid me (obviously). She does not believe that it is her duty in life to convert me. She is the kind of Christian (kind, open, and loving) that I mentioned up above. She gets just as upset and distraught, if not moreso, than I do about groups like the Westboro Baptist Church. She's an archaeologist, so it isn't as if she has been sheltering herself from the world and its many cultures and religions. She is a fan of evolution, and doesn't see why it would preclude God's hand in things.

We started dating over two years ago and got engaged this last November. We are in the middle of planning our wedding, which will be this August. If we put our beliefs in brutal and frank terms: she thinks I'm on my way to hell (but loves me anyway) and I think her personal relationship with Christ is baloney (but love her anyway). Nobody's perfect. Luckily, though, neither of us are fucking assholes that feel a need to constantly tell the other person they're wrong. We have discussed this thoroughly, so it is by no means as if we woke up one day and realized we were getting married but -- oops -- had different world views. We both think that it, just like everything else, is a fair topic for discussion and not anything to be brushed under the rug and ignored. We both think it is important to be involved in the communities we live in. We both think loving each other, our friends, and our families should be a primary goal in life.

We have every intention of keeping our beliefs. I won't go to church with her (unless we have kids), but am perfectly willing to hang out with any friends she has from church and go to non-Sunday morning church functions. If we do have kids, I'm more than willing to raise them as Christians with plenty of attention spent on the importance of skepticism and open mindedness. I was grateful to my parents for raising me in a good home and taking me to a good, loving church. There's a lot to be said for a kind and helpful community, even if they think I'm gonna burn. Neither of us are fearful of our kids having different beliefs than we do. We'd rather have smart kids that can think for themselves.

So things are generally great. We're super excited about the wedding and our marriage. Julie, though, has been fighting with and upset by the idea of an ideal Christian marriage, which she'll be missing out on: one where two individuals come together in marriage as an act of worship. We won't be able to share our beliefs, pray together, make spiritual goals and the like.

Do any mefites out there have any personal experience or advice that would be helpful for her, or for me? I love her, and she loves me, and I don't like seeing her upset by this but there isn't much I can do.

(These threads are similar and helpful: Confused Children and I'm an atheist and my girlfriend is a churchgoer).

Sorry for the length. Thanks to anyone that responds. Hell, thanks to anyone that reads more than a third of this rambling tripe.

What is involved in a Catholic wedding couples consultation?

Anonymous — Mon, 26 Feb 2007 19:59:45 -0800

Pre-marriage Catholic priest consultation - what to expect? I am an atheist. My girlfriend is from a Catholic family. Apparently, Catholic wedding services require (or strongly expect) the couple to visit a priest beforehand and get some kind of approval. This approval takes the form of some signed document. This is a couple months out, but what should I expect from such a meeting? Do I need to hold my tongue with regard to my religious beliefs, or lack thereof?

In general, I am not especially good at asking authority figures for their permission. I do not share what seems to be a fundamental element of some religions; having respect for someone based only on their position or title. Respect, to me, is earned on a personal level. I seem to be in the minority in this regard. Naturally, I expect this might present some problems, since by default I have no more respect for the priest we meet than any other person I would meet during my day.

Privacy-wise, I am not too keen on someone asking me questions along the lines of "How do you plan on raising children?" This question is out of line coming from a stranger, which is what the priest would be to me. However, I expect such a response may be unwelcome.

Lastly, as far as politics go, I am not likely to share much common ground with the priest. It's possible, but unlikely. Therefore, any questions along these lines would also be unwelcome.

Indeed, this is my main problem: I can't think of any questions about my future marriage that I'd like to discuss with a stranger.

Practically: What does such a meeting entail? What questions or subject matters should I expect?

Philosophically: Should I consent to such a meeting? Is it actually required? My girlfriend and her family are intent on having a Catholic service, though not one including a mass. This doesn't bother me. However, a direct questioning that could end badly would put this process into jeopardy.

I am not interested in lying to placate the priest. Any suggestions you have would be very helpful.

I HEARD her, loud and clear.

PhatLobley — Wed, 20 Dec 2006 07:13:34 -0800

My athiestic leanings make me feel extremely unwelcome in my workplace. It's a public school. No one there even knows I'm an athiest. I need advice. I've read the first 2-or-so chapters of Dawkins's God Delusion. In it, he talks about athiests "coming out" and how there are probably a lot of us hiding out there. I was thinking about this a lot as it relates to my life. I feel pretty much "out" and very well accepted, even by my most religioius friends. The only place where I would consider myself "in the closet," as it were, is at work. The situation there:
I work in a public, urban elementary school. It's been clear since I've gotten here (and has gotten more and more clear over the time I've spent here) that the vast majority of the staff is openly, proudly Christian. Teachers stand up and sing songs about Jesus at all-school assemblies. My colleagues frequently appeal to Jesus to help them with their jobs and assert that he's the only thing getting them through working in a difficult situation like we do. I've never really had any problem with this. I thought the songs might cross the line in a public school, but I figure teachers can sing whatever they want- nobody was forced to sing along. I didn't even get upset about there being no "Holiday" celebrations- only "Christmas" ones. We have an all-school "Christmas Program" today and last night the staff had its annual "Christmas Party." I didn't think this was exactly in line with what should happen in a public school, but given the overwhelming majority of the staff and students who consider themselves Christians, I didn't figure it worth it to quibble over semantics. And I really didn't want to get Bill O'Reilly mad at me.
But then, last night, at the "Christmas Party" (held in the school's library), as I was already thinking about how maybe I should "come out" to some of my colleagues (something I've always avoided in order not to rock the boat as a new teacher), my principal did something that I think completely crossed the line and made me feel completely unaccepted and uncomfortable.
Before we started eating, she announced that we would first have to "give thanks to the lord." I thought this was out of line, but okay. So they'll pray and I'll stare at the food. Then she continued: "And those of you who don't believe in the lord, well you can close your ears or whatever you wanna do, but you're gonna HEAR TODAY." This last part was not said in a hopeful, friendly, come to God kind of way, but had a disrespectful, nasty, judgmental tone. It was greeted with a chorus of affirmations from my colleagues. Our PE teacher then gave thanks to Jesus and we ate.
Whew... My questions:
Is it worth it to "come out" around here?
How much of this should I tolerate? I'm pretty sure protesting would solve nothing and maybe just make it worse for me around here, but can I really let a public school principal get away with saying something like this? It was incredibly insulting- even threatening- to me and surely to anyone else in the room who is a nonbeliever. My Christian girlfriend said it offended her when I related the story. Is it time to take a stand? If not now, when?
Thank you, AskMe, for your wisdom.

Confused Children

drleary — Sun, 10 Dec 2006 09:18:50 -0800

I'm an atheist. My fiancé is not. What about the children? My fiancé and I have been talking about having children recently, but a major point keeps coming up. She's a Christian and I'm not. She wants to instill in our children that the Bible is a factual book, and that, for instance, a man actually spent three days in the belly of a whale and survived. I think think that it's a mediocre story book.

Surely there are others that have faced this same situation. What kind of compromise did you reach with your partner?

prayer for everyone at holiday dinner

allelopath — Tue, 28 Nov 2006 05:48:16 -0800

Religion-holiday-family-filter: Prayer at dinner. No discussion of Sir Thomas I am returning home for the holdays to visit family. These people are white, conservative, catholic, close-minded midwesterners. I'm pretty much the opposite, except for the white part, can't seem to shake that. Traditionally, there is a prayer before dinner in which everyone stands and words like 'jesus' and 'god' are used. As I am an atheist, I sit this out, as does one brother and his wife, who are of an non-christian religiion.

I'm fine with sitting this out, though some things bother me.

1. There are many nieces and nephews. It seems to be a poor lesson to teach them. Something about excluding others who are not like you.
2. I am bringing home my fiancee (first time). She certainly understands about 'family' (let's just say her father has 'issues')., but still its embarrassing.

I want to suggest that the prayer be modified so that everyone can participate, e.g. change "we thank god" to "we are thankful".

Questions:
1. Do I bother? Things are not discussed openly in this famiy. Problems are swept under the rug.
2. If, yes, help me word it in a diplomatic manner (I tend to be too blunt) . Especially #1

Must I "diss" grace as an atheist?

war wrath of wraith — Fri, 20 Oct 2006 12:58:02 -0800

What's the polite thing for an atheist to do during grace at the dinner table to which s/he was invited? Recently, I found myself in a series of uncomfortable situations where I was a guest at the dinner table of very devout religious-folk who would take 4-5 minutes to say grace. As a guest, I didn't want to offend by refusing to take part or standing out in any way. At the same time, I wasn't going to pretend to be praying, either.

When I searched, I found this and this, but neither really answered my question. This comment makes it clear what I should do (if I understand the comment correctly), but I was a bit surprised by it, as I had imagined that the offense would come from the other direction, as I mentioned above.

What I ended up doing was simply folding my hands together in a somewhat casual way, then staring intently at my dish with a slightly bowed head, but this felt extremely silly.

To provide some background info: no, the family didn't know I was atheist, nor did I realize how devout they were. Yes, it was the family of a close friend, and while I knew he was religious, again, I didn't realize to what extent. And plus, my question is more general, as in "What is the proper thing to do in such a situation?"