Ask MetaFilter questions tagged with atheism

I’d like advice on how to either leave my church as gracefully as possible, or find a way to reconcile my lack of faith with my continued church membership.

cheapskatebay — Wed, 25 Nov 2009 10:50:41 -0800

I’d like advice on how to either leave my church as gracefully as possible, or find a way to reconcile my lack of faith with my continued church membership. Inspired by the thoughtful replies to two recent AskMe questions (here and here), I also have a question about atheism, but I come at it from a different angle: how can I deal with my lack of faith when I’ve been a committed church member? The real kicker is that I’ve never believed in the first place.

Although I’m not posting this anonymously, I seldom have the opportunity to post to Ask Metafilter, and I’m a slow typist, too. I’ll therefore try to provide a lot of detail, with a truncated version of the situation at the end for those who’d prefer not to wade through an extremely long question.

The long story: I’m a member of a Presbyterian Church (USA) congregation, and I have been for 10 years. I also regularly attended a Presbyterian church as a child. Over the years gradually I’ve assumed a leadership role in my church and I now serve as an Elder (part of the elected board that leads the church) and also as the church’s treasurer.

My problem is straightforward: I am an atheist. Call me agnostic if you like – I’m certainly willing to accept that the existence or non-existence of God is a question I can’t satisfactorily answer. More accurately, I’m what I’ve seen referred to as an “apatheist” or “practical atheist” – someone for whom religion simply isn’t important.

I’m just not a spiritual person – I don’t wonder about an afterlife I don’t believe exists, I don’t dwell on the (non-?)existence of a higher power, I don’t worry about which religion is “right” and which is “wrong,” and I never have worried about these “big picture” issues, even as a child. I don’t have any reason to believe there is a God, and I therefore don’t have that belief – and never have. I certainly don’t think that religious belief is a necessary component of living a virtuous or moral life.

You might reasonably ask why someone like me attends church in the first place. I like going to my church for several reasons. We’re one of the more liberal denominations in terms of our philosophies and outlook, which manifests itself (in our church, at least) as being very gay-friendly, environmentally aware, and committed to issues of social justice. Our mission dollars support programs that empower poor women and children in our community and around the world. We have lots of older members who have tremendously interesting life experiences and perspectives to share. I have the tradition of having attended worship services in this faith for most of my life, which is a source of comfort. My wife also grew up Presbyterian, and we were married by a Presbyterian minister. She is a believing Christian and we’re bringing up our two young children in the church, as well.

It’s been very easy to fall into the routines of membership, and as I’ve done so, I’ve found myself increasingly taking on a leadership role within the church. It’s a small church, and anyone with the slightest interest tends to get recruited to help in some way, shape or form. I’m grateful for the good people who’ve served as mentors to me, and who’ve afforded me opportunities to share my talents.

So, why would I leave, particularly now? An essential part of being a member of our congregation, I would argue, is either being a believer in God or, at least, making a good-faith effort to believe. I’ve never been a believer, nor a person interested in making that kind of good-faith effort, and as far as I can tell, that distinguishes me from everyone else. I’ve even lied about my belief when I’ve professed my faith publicly. What I’ve done is dishonest and unethical, and I’m tired of pretending to be a believer when I’m not one. I am increasingly close to concluding that my only responsible course of action is to leave the church. Whether that is an abrupt or gradual process, I’m not sure, but it doesn’t feel right to feign belief that I don’t have.

My ability to deal with this cognitive dissonance waxes and wanes over time, but the long-term trend has definitely tipped toward my feeling increasingly awkward as a church member. In the past year, in particular, I’ve become very uncomfortable. As my responsibilities increase, I feel like I’m living more and more of a lie.

One might wonder if I’m simply overwhelmed by the duties I’ve assumed. While I am very busy with work and other family and charitable obligations in addition to my work for the church, I truly don’t think this is a case of being overworked in my church volunteer duties. When I’ve been overwhelmed with church-related commitments in the past, I’ve found ways to cut back, and everyone at the church has been very supportive of my doing so. In fact, I recently became the church’s treasurer and I really enjoy the job – dealing with investments and budgeting is a nice fit with my interests and skills.

In all candor, I also think that part of what may be increasing my dissatisfaction at this time is the continued decline of our membership, and what that portends for the future. We lose perhaps 5% of our membership on a year-over-year basis and we add far too few new members to reverse that trend. I feel like we’re in the midst of a protracted death as a congregation and as a denomination – both literally and figuratively –and, while I’m ashamed of feeling that way, it surely has an effect.

When I see the numbers showing the declining membership figures for our denomination and our church – it’s not all due to death – I know that I simply cannot be the only person who feels this way. Still, I don’t know of anyone who’s left our church recently – at least, no one in a leadership role. Our church embraces modernity and education, it’s about as liberal in its theology as they come, and it’s a nice place to congregate. It would be harder to leave, I’d think, than it would be to leave a fundamentalist church! Still, it isn’t a social club, and I’m not comfortable treating it as such. Maybe there are atheists or agnostics aplenty in the pews, but I’m certainly not aware of them.

Additional factors/complications/background:

1. I don’t know how this would play out with my wife and children. It’s not uncommon for our church members to attend services with their children but without their spouses; in those instances, though, the non-member spouse (who is usually the husband/father) has never attended. I can’t think of a single instance where someone in a couple has simply stopped attending worship services, let alone someone in a leadership role. My wife knows of my lack of faith and is understanding and supportive, but she’d prefer that I continue to attend worship services, special events and committee meetings. I think I benefited from attending Presbyterian services as a child, and I have no problem at all with my children continuing to do so. I worry, though, that this would be a source of considerable tension within our family.
2. There are a lot of people at my church who’ve reached out to me and made me feel welcome and special. I admire, respect and love them deeply. Leaving them and potentially losing their friendship would be wrenching.
3. Our church, and our denomination, almost seem to expect a certain level of faithlessness. Maybe it’s assumed to be transitory, not permanent, but questioning one’s faith is encouraged in our tradition. I feel like making a clean break would be a challenge with this mindset being prevalent.
4. I’ve made leadership commitments that I think I should honor, notwithstanding my personal lack of belief.
5. Our pastor is young and relatively new to our church. I’m very fond of him and I think it would be very difficult for him to accept my leaving, and I’ve specifically avoided speaking with him as a result.
6. I should note that I’m not interested in joining, say, a Unitarian church, at least at this point. I don’t want to join a new congregation, even if that congregation would welcome an atheist like me – I’m more concerned about extricating myself from, or learning to live among, my current congregation.
7. Maybe I’m placing too much emphasis on my lack of faith… I just feel like someone who believes in God at some point, then loses that faith, is in a different situation than me, who’s never believed and who’s lied about that for years. If you think I’m making too much of this distinction, let me know.

What I really want, to be honest, is to remain a church member. I like many things about being a member of my church. I don’t mind going to the services with my wife and kids on Sundays. I like the fact that we’re liberal. I even kind of like the occasionally grueling committee work. I just don’t see how I can continue to be a member if I’m neither a believer in the existence of God nor interested in changing that stance. I understand that my position on staying or leaving might seem very stark and draconian, but I’ve been in the gray area long enough to be disillusioned with remaining there. Nevertheless, I’d be very interested in hearing any stories of anyone who’s been able to overcome such feelings.

If you’ve been in a similar situation and have separated from membership, how did you do so? Was it sudden or abrupt? Did you fulfill terms on committees and boards, or leave them when you left the church?

The short story: I’m neither ashamed nor proud of my atheism; frankly, I’m apathetic about matters of faith, spirituality and belief. I grew up Presbyterian and I find myself taking on a larger leadership role within my church. If there is a way to reconcile my lack of belief with continued church membership, I’m all for that, but I don’t see how that can be done. If I decide to leave, how can I do so gracefully and with dignity? Are there any books, resources, or personal stories that you can share that address this situation?

Thank you for reading this and for your thoughts.

Letting go of God: Help me deal with my atheism and the five stages of grief. I'm in the fourth stage now.

Anonymous — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 08:57:30 -0800

Please give advice on how to accept my atheism, let go of God and the need for one, how to get over the fourth stage of grief/letting go (depression), and how to find my passion for life again! Hello, hivemind.

I'm from a totally Bible-banging family (Creationists, End Timers, warped-Republicans, sexist, homophobic and a little racist). I haven't been a Christian for going on six years now, ever since I read the Bible all the way through and decided it was a total piece of junk filled with violence and hatred toward other faiths, women, etc. I know I don't believe in the Christian God, or, it seems, any religion or philosophy akin to it (no, not even Buddhism), as I have read many religious texts, apologetics and more besides and just don't feel there's any evidence for any of it. Simply put, I appear to be an atheist...at least as far as labels go.

The unfortunate thing is that I'm not handling this too well, and it has recently occurred to me that I have been going through what can best be identified as the five stages of grief, which just annoys me to no end! (I'd just like to get on with my life!) The whole not believing in God/gods thing has really been like a death in the family, so to speak...it's frustrating and painful. I'm specifically not having what I would consider healthy reactions to my lack of faith, which is a major reason that I've chosen to post this, rather than just rely on the great advice that I could find in similar questions from the past.

Maybe I should first talk about the five stages.

For one year, I was in denial. Even though I didn't believe in God, I continued to say that I did and tried to push through. I came up with lots of excuses as to why my doubts were happening. I read a lot of Christian apologetics that I didn't agree with in that time, in an attempt to act like things were okay with me and the Big Aggressive Creator in the Sky. I even avoided competing ideas. I prayed lots. I lived as closely to the Bible as I could, without totally ripping myself of my own thoughts regarding ethics and morality.

That didn't work, and I ended up getting angry. I was angry at the concept of God, angry that I couldn't seem to believe in it and angry that I had believed in what I felt was myth. I was angry at my family for bringing me up in extremism, as well as at all the borderline-abusive things they did in God's name, all the things they kept me from, because they were "of the devil". I was angry that I couldn't have lived "normally, like most people", in either moderate faith or no faith. In a weird sort of way, I was even angry that I was having to think about any of it. I couldn't decide whether I wanted to go back to the blind faith I'd had or bypass all of it, but I was angry that the issue had cropped up. I read everything I could get my hands on at this time, be it scientific or religious. I feel like I read more during this time than any other time of my life. I wanted to learn, so I could actually form my own opinions.

Another six months to a year passed, and bargaining began. I tried to live some form of very mild Christianity to agnosticism (Jesus was a good man; the Bible's a good "moral" text), thinking, "If I just do this, it will be the best of both worlds. I won't have any more problems. Things can work out this way." The idea was that I could still keep up with a religious community, be everyone's friend, etc. The reality, however, was that I began to identify less and less with Christians/Christianity/more religious people on the whole, with only a few exceptions, and that more of my friends slowly but surely ended up being agnostic, all the way to militant atheists. Not trying to step on any Mefi toes, but to be honest, the agnostics/atheists in my life were the only ones who didn't seem to be insecure, lying jerks most of the time, so it seems almost inevitable that things turned out the way they did. (Big disclaimer!!: I know this does not represent all Christians, just my experiences with some of them. I still even have some Christian friends, but not many.) I didn't go searching for my "heathen" friends, but we found each other. We gravitated toward one another, as our core philosophies were now similar. I also found/find myself annoyed by most religious people these days, but I never say/do anything regarding that. I try to accept where possible and be silent, when I feel myself unable. I married a mild-mannered, sugar-sweet atheist guy. My watered-down Christianity turned to full-blown agnosticism around the time I met him, as a result of all these experiences and changes.

I was happy with my agnosticism for a year, to year and a half, but recently I've noticed, as far as labels go, I am more of an atheist. To this very moment, though, I've not said aloud to anyone, not even my husband, that I actually consider myself an atheist. I don't know why the label means as much as it does, other than I know that if religious people dislike me now as an unbeliever, many will hate me as an atheist, even if that's what I most closely identify with... I guess I can't help but not want people to not hate me, even if they're extremist whack jobs. The label means a lot to me, too, though, because I'm really tired of lying about how I feel and think.

This seems to have put me in the fourth stage of grief, depression. I feel sad that I can't buy into the comforting stories I once did, sad that I can't agree with my family as far as faith goes, sad that I'm not accepted by tons of religious people (including family) when they find out I'm an unbeliever (even when I am accepting toward them), sad that I no longer believe in life after death or guiding forces in the universe. I think we are here, we die, and that's it, and that notion depresses me. I don't think there's any evidence to the contrary, however, so I'm bound to it...whether I like it or not. I know we can't know what happens "on the other side", but I highly doubt it's anything spectacular. I highly doubt it's anything at all.

I want to get to the fifth stage of grief, where I accept myself and the death of my religion and faith, but it just seems so impossible at this stage. As said, some of my reactions to my own atheism aren't healthy. For instance, I have lost my passion for a lot of life, which is bad for me in more ways than one, considering I am a professional artist and writer and need to feel and create accordingly. I miss my sense of wonder. I feel wonder at the universe, but it's a head-wonder, not a heart-wonder, like I felt with spirituality. I'll agree with Carl Sagan and my fellow atheists and agnostics that it's amazing to think about how statistically unlikely it is that I'm here, that the planet works the way it does, etc. I'll agree that, because of all these things and my finite time here on earth, I should value every second I have and live it to the fullest, without apology...

But I can't seem to...

I am amazed by the world, but that doesn't drive me. In fact, it's all the opposite. It makes me feel like there's no point. Amazement is just part of it, but it doesn't particularly mean much. I realize that, without "something behind everything", it doesn't matter one iota (speaking from a selfish perspective here) whether I build great things or just sit on my couch and rot, whether I live to be 100 or die tomorrow. It will matter to some, but not to many, and not for long. It's like, what am I trying to prove to anyone or to myself now? How on earth does any of it matter if it's just this tiny bit of time I have? I'd like to help people, and while I realize that while I do touch some people's lives, and that does make me happy, the odds are against my helping a significant number of people in my lifetime, try as I might, so it all feels a little hopeless and pointless still. Death depresses me immensely, and rather than living my life more fully as a result, I just have ended up somewhat stagnant...blahed and mehed out.

Please note that I'm actually not depressed in other areas of my life, just this one. But it does...influence...the other areas, from a foundational perspective, so it definitely needs to be seen to. I think it's affecting more, too, as time goes by. I appreciate the concept of life, but I don't really feel compelled to do much with it now, without the notion of some sort of equilibrium in the universe (carried out by a creator, karma, whatever). I mean, I do what I need to and try my best, but I'm not striving toward things like I once was. Without a reason behind things, so much stuff in the world seems overwhelmingly random and unfair and out of my control. (I think this is one of the reasons there are so many moderate Christians, even. People keep some idea of God, just so they can pray about the things they can't control, to comfort themselves.) I can't even pray about any of it, though, and I think the concept of sending good thoughts toward it all is just as silly. I've tried giving myself rituals, but it just doesn't work. I always feel silly.

So, hivemind, I guess what I want to know, after all my heathen rambling, is how do I peacefully come to accept my lack of faith and not having a god in the world? How do I regain passion for life, despite feeling everything is off balance without a godly figure? I've tried listening and reading some things, like Julia Sweeney's personal story, and while helpful and something I could identify well with, it's never gotten me over the hump. I'd appreciate personal advice, recommendations of what to read/listen to/do...anything, really.

Throw-away email: atheistic.blues@gmail.com

Thanks, guys and gals.

To discover the meaning of life...consult Merriam-Webster.

Christ, what an asshole — Fri, 30 Oct 2009 09:51:59 -0800

As an atheist, what sort of activities or practices (that don't involve New Age wankery) can I get into to increase my spiritual welfare?

Where did Kurt Vonnegut describe Unitarianism as atheism with hymns?

Kattullus — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:31:36 -0800

I need help tracking down a Kurt Vonnegut quote which says roughly that Unitarianism is 'atheism with hymns.' I thought it was in the Religion chapter of Palm Sunday but I just read through it and couldn't find it. I'm almost positive it's Vonnegut and the quote is something quite close to "Unitarianism is atheism with hymns." Am I misremembering this?

Deconverting Christians

LSK — Thu, 03 Sep 2009 14:02:28 -0800

How do I convince [the more liberal] Christians to become atheists? (Issues you have with the wording of this question are likely addressed inside.) Obviously "Christian" isn't an all-encompassing or precise term, and there are a plural of sects, approaches and levels of worship. I'm primarily curious how to 'deconvert' the Christians who aren't so dedicated - those that maybe go to church on Sunday, but don't let the principles of Christianity rule their lives.

The difficulty in attacking Christianity is often that direct reason is rendered useless in the believer's mind by various arguments, such as these:

- Claims that God is the one aspect of life that can be dictated by faith, that he exists beyond logic, or etc.

- "But I've FELT God!" or "But I KNOW he's there!" or etc.

- "There's not enough evidence to prove or disprove God, so you have to choose one, so I chose to believe in God."
___
Various disclaimers:
1. This question's definitely not the best fit here, but the Green's the only place on the internet where people with the ability to answer this congregate.

2. Yes, I know that I'm asking how to impose my opinion on others. I understand that this is often considered to be in poor taste - see #1.

3. A previous version of this question was removed as chatfilter. I assure you that I'm asking this with intent to put this to use - I just don't feel comfortable specifying exactly where.

Atheism definition aka Philosophy 101

snap_dragon — Tue, 26 May 2009 07:58:05 -0800

Is atheism the belief that there are no gods or the lack of belief in existence of gods? This is philosophy 101 but I honestly keep finding different definitions claimed by atheists. Can someone clarify? (and if my question is phrased poorly, please forgive me but I hope you understand the gist.)

Apologetics & Debate Mp3s burnable to disc?

snap_dragon — Tue, 21 Apr 2009 15:37:13 -0800

I am looking for Christian apologetics/debates (christian/atheist etc) in mp3 downloadable form to burn to disc in Itunes (My ipod broke so no podcasts) :( ...Can you recommend any sites where I can get free mp3s for this? Thanks.

Atheist therapists?

Anonymous — Fri, 27 Feb 2009 11:44:30 -0800

How to find an atheist-friendly therapist? No, I don't beleive in God(s) or crystals or feng shui and I don't much believe in therapy either. But I have been having some depression and anxiety issues that I want to at least try to fix. I know Christian doctors and dentists have that little fish by their names in the yellow pages but what about atheists? Is that something you can ask over the phone? I don't have time to shop around too much during work hours.

I have nothing against religious people, but I have had several bad experiences with therapists (and even job counselors) talking about religion or spirituality as a way to solve things and that just isn't going to work.

I am in my late 30s with good health insurance in the NE US if it matters.

Help this struggling atheist get over her desire to believe.

lysistrata — Fri, 06 Feb 2009 10:14:34 -0800

After years of drifting along as a "spiritual but not religious" believer I am beginning to come to terms with the fact that I'm not actually a believer at all. I am an atheist with a lingering but unwanted desire to believe and it is making me miserable. Can you help me move past this? I was raised in a nominally Christian home but left the church at thirteen. From that point on and up until a few years ago I believed and took comfort in the idea that there was something larger than myself--a greater power that I could turn to in prayer in times of need--but never belonged to any organized religious group. When asked I would refer to myself as "spiritual but not religious." While I didn't belong to any particular group I definitely believed and had faith. Faith that at one point I thought was unshakeable. While this was fulfilling in some respects, over the years, due to many events big and small, I have moved further and further away from belief. In the last two years or so I have slowly started to realize that in my heart of hearts I don't believe at all anymore. In some ways this is a relief and even a little exciting. But I am also feeling a deep sense of loss and hurt not only because I feel as if I have wasted a good deal of my time on something that wasn't true but also because I can't let go of the desire to believe. I feel as if I am going to have to give up my sense of wonder at the world. I feel like I'm giving up the last remaining connection I have to deeper mysteries and that loss hurts me even though I now realize that those mysteries which captivated me for so long are likely not real at all. I took great comfort in my faith and being stripped of it leaves me feeling vulnerable and lonely.

I basically feel like I am stuck between belief and non-belief and I can't move in either direction. If I discard it all and move on to a more materialistic view of the universe I am losing something that has been a big part of my life for a long time but I can no longer pretend that I believe when I don't.

I want to move past this desire to have faith. I don't wish to return to religion. I would be deluding myself if I did. I just want to know how to get rid of the leftover trappings of religious belief. I want to turn this around so that instead of leaving religion behind I am moving towards something better, clearer and more rational. I'm just not sure how to do that. I don't personally know very many atheists and the few that I do were never religious to begin with so I don't know how common these feelings are.

I am looking for advice or anecdotes from formerly religious atheists or agnostics who have found themselves in a similar situation. Did you feel a sense of loss when you "deconverted"? Did it pass? Has your life improved since you moved away from religion? How has it improved? Do you ever feel as if you are missing out on something (either spiritually or culturally) because you are not religious? Are there any books out there that deal with this issue? Am I always going to feel this confused?

Is my irritation over receiving tacky religious gifts unfounded?

JFitzpatrick — Wed, 31 Dec 2008 16:40:43 -0800

Is my irritation over receiving tacky religious gifts unfounded? The situation: For Christmas this year, my sister-in-law and her husband gave my family religious gifts.

My feeling on the matter: It wasn't something innocuous like a great aunt giving a niece a childrens' bible because it seemed like a nice gift... the gifts were pretty much given as a form of propaganda. They know that I'm an atheist and that my wife has fallen so far off the southern Christian Fundamentalist wagon that she grew up on that she is for all intents and purposes agnostic now. Their gifts this year were books about finding Christ, how Christ was the one true way and the source of all moral authority and a bunch of other unsolicited nonsense. The real thorn was giving unsolicited books about religion to my daughter. I go out of my way to almost bite my tongue clean off when I hear them filling their childrens heads with the most absurd fundamentalist nonsense you've ever heard in your life because it isn't my place to intervene in how they raise their children. I would never, ever, -ever-, give their children unsolicited books about religion or sex or other topics that are the province of a parent to discuss with their child (even whilst cringing at the size of the therapy bills the poor kids will pay later in life to fix what has been done!)

Ultimately I'm offended not because I even cared that I received gifts from them... I've never been that into getting gifts whether for a holiday or my birthday. I'm offended because while I was picking out thoughtful gifts for them that I thought would be useful and beautiful (and entirely without any sort of agenda other than hoping they found them as useful and lovely as I thought they were), they were apparently putting together Missionary-in-a-Box(tm) for me.

I'm not about to pick up the phone and give them a stern talking to other anything... I just can't get over how incredibly tacky the gifts were.

Am I being irrational? Should I just accept that my in-laws are poster children for the Pat Roberston Glee Club and shrug it off?

Help me become the best atheist chaplain I can be.

internet!Hannah — Mon, 01 Sep 2008 10:27:08 -0800

Help me become the best atheist chaplain I can be. I'm in the ROTC at my University, and as a cadet master sergeant this year, I've somewhat taken it upon myself to assume the unofficial role of "atheist chaplain" for the Corps. There's no official position for this, though I'm told there was once an actual Atheist Chaplain some years ago (however, it seems to have been done more as a protest than anything, which has engendered some resentment for getting the position reinstated), but I've found myself filling the vacuum anyways.

The Corps has ~2,000 cadets. I've started in my major unit (one of 9 units) by getting the names of the atheist and agnostic freshmen cadets (as well as a deist and a neo-pagan), and I took 5 of them with me to the school's Agnostic and Atheist Student Group, which was a hit both with the freshmen and the organization. My current plans include trying to get all of the irreligious freshmen in the Corps to attend these meetings with me, pending cooperation with the Corps-wide Chaplain on just who those freshmen are. The AASG is a debate group that discusses such topics as morality without religion and so forth, and is actually a really fun group, so I'm definately going to be pushing it for these cadets.

However, since we're in a very conservative, religious university in Texas, these freshmen are getting inundated with religious pressure, and I want to expand my help to include something that passes as more of a alternative to all of the bible studies and prayer sessions they're constantly getting offered. (To get an idea of the atmosphere I'm talking about, we freethinkers sit through a mimimum of two prayers a day at morning and evening chow, and every speaker for every event feels the need to quote half of the bible. It does get a little old.)

I'm short on ideas of what all I can do for the freshmen, though. I've been thinking along the lines of having some group relaxed dinners (alternative to chow) so that they can get to know one another and realize they aren't alone, which would also let me keep tabs on if any are getting any harassment within their outfits (though in my experience, 95% of the reaction I got was, if not positive, then at least no worse than good-natured ribbing. Then again, I also know the Bible better than just about anyone else in my unit, which is a great defense against the conversion-minded).

What else could I be doing for them? I have a pretty good selection of Sagan and Dawkins and so forth, so I guess I could do either a borrow-a-book or book study thing, if there's any interest. Or maybe once monthly meetings about stuff like what it's like to be an atheist in the military (though not all are military bound)? There is an obnoxious attitude of "no atheists in foxholes" that I find offensive and I would like to try and counter.

So, please, does anyone have any suggestions? The normal chaplain types do bible studies, devotionals, church carpooling, BBQs, and general counseling, and nontheistic equivalents would be welcomed.

Please note, I am not trying to make waves with anyone. I will not be challenging prayers, or attacking the current chaplain system, so please don't make suggestions that would just create resentment for atheists.

Religion, the non-believer and worthwhile relationships.

roooooot — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 08:38:17 -0800

Myself: atheist. SO: Lutheran. Not too long ago she sent me an email to say that at some point in the future she would like to talk about the religious card and its possible effect on our relationship. Any thoughts on how to approach this? Hints have been dropped here and there at her wanting to finally discuss this. Just some quick background. While I am quite content with my atheism, I realize that religion is very important to people. I have no urge to discount people's religious beliefs, I just have no desire/need for it to be part of my life. I find the whole topic fascinating, and at one point in my life I had some serious debate about pursuing more formal education in religion studies when I was in university.

She comes from an averagely religious upbringing. She doesn't really attend church regularly, isn't preachy on any religious subject and until now there hasn't been any proselytizing on her part, and I don't really view this as an outward attempt she just has some extremely-valid-to-her concerns on loved ones and the afterlife.

There aren't any ultimatums or anything on the subject (that I'm aware of), I'd just rather not have this turn into some big ugly mess. This is one of the few relationships in my life where I'd like to maintain it for a long time to come, and I'd rather this not be a dealbreaker, but I am thinking that depends on my handling of it all.

Anyone have any experience dealing with this topic?

More info: I just turned 30, college dropout, creative professional, love video games, a DJing music snob, love reading everything from Lovecraft to Satre, to Bukowski to layman quantum physics books. She loves dance, 4th year of university, loves reading fashion magazines and listening to top 40 pop music. We have been living together for a while now, and more or less been dating for about a year. Admittedly the whole thing began as a series of drunken hook-ups and along the way we discovered a pretty serious compatibility.

We have a world of differences between us and it works.

Help my niece free her mind

plexi — Mon, 28 Jul 2008 09:33:24 -0800

What are good techniques to deprogram a Christian fundamentalist? My niece was heavily indoctrinated with Christianity as a child, and she is now 20. As an adult, she is intelligent enough to escape the vise of religion, but I would like to help her do so in a kind manner and not just give her a copy of Dawkins' or Harris' books.

eBay shipper sent me a religious tract - should I note this in feedback?

Cranialtorque — Sat, 26 Jul 2008 21:05:36 -0800

An eBay purchase just arrived. I have no complaint at all about the item, and it was shipped quickly. The seller included a religious tract in the package, though, which bugs me. I would like to note this in the feedback, politely, as a negative. It seems reasonable to note something about the transaction that I disliked, but worry that it may not be worth the potential hassle. Yes, I am an atheist. No, I don't make a habit of provoking religious folks. I do not appreciate being witnessed to, proselytized to, or preached at, especially when it invades my everyday business. This is not a Jack Chick level of tract, not hate-spewing or overly gory. But I don't enjoy "Turn to JESUS or you will burn FOREVER!" being a part of this transaction.

I do not plan to actually leave negative feedback, as I am happy with the item and the shipping. My plan is to mention it as a negative in the comment section.

My concern is not that the seller might leave me a negative feedback; who cares. It is that this action could either trigger a flurry of email or snailmail from the seller (and his fellow congregants) or some sort of dispute with eBay, and that it just could be a big headache. (I'm not particularly worried about any live harassment, as we live on opposite sides of the continent.) When I transpose the situation to a physical retailer, I think I would act similarly, and I think I would be unhappy with myself if I let this go.

What do you think, hivemind?

Converting to Judaism, but secular / atheist?

Meatbomb — Fri, 25 Jul 2008 02:39:10 -0800

Converting to Judaism, but secular / atheist? This idea has been growing in my brain for quite some years now, but in recent months it has started to push itself forward quite insistently. I feel absolutely ripped off that I was not born a Jew, and I want to be one.

The catch is I am strongly atheist, and have no plans to change that. But there are a lot of Jews who don't believe, right?

Would it be possible to find a Rabbi that would let me into the tribe? I've read most of the top Internet resources on the subject, but it seems like even for Reform Judaism I'd have to believe in God to get started, and Humanistic Judaism seems pretty fringe, and I don't think it would qualify me for the right to aliya if I wanted to do that at some point in the future.

I am sorry because I know this sounds like I am just riffing and goofing off here but I am serious. Any ideas or advice?

Stuck between Rev and a hard place

Anonymous — Mon, 07 Jul 2008 18:00:48 -0800

Again, my childhood reverend is trying to convince me to be religious. How do I deal with him? Religion is a very tender subject in my family since my temporary estrangement from them regarding my non-belief in God. Only after coming out as a non-religious adult, a few painful years of not talking and then a gradual return to normalcy have we gotten along, and during all that time, I refused to let religion become a topic of conversation because I know how much it hurts them that I'm not Christian. As a sign of deference and respect toward my parents, I attend church with them when I am home, but I do not take communion or otherwise participate in the service.

Ever since they found out about my nonbelief, I get an impassioned phone call every year or so from my toolbox of a childhood reverend encouraging me to come back to God, reminding me that if I were to die in a car accident, "there are only two outcomes". This time around, I told him that I won't, in fact, go to hell, because hell does not exist and a back and forth about my lack of faith ensued, in which I finally told him in so many words that I don't believe in God, most likely won't believe in God in the future, and because of this, am not comfortable returning to church. I know I shouldn't have engaged him, but I can't stand his repeated verbal assault and blatant disrespect of my privacy and life choices and it feels like honesty is the only way to get him to listen and stop. I am grown, married, and live away from home, and he still won't lay off. Every time, he will tattle to my parents about the nature of our conversations; this time, I'm very afraid that it will result in another estrangement period. It's killing me--I can't lie, but I can't bend over and take it every time he feels the need to remind me of my supposed fiery future.

What do I say to this guy? What do I say to my parents? In case it's relevant, I was raised in a very conservative Lutheran church.

Atheism as taboo in fiction?

archae — Sun, 20 Apr 2008 19:56:42 -0800

Book-filter: Nabokov commented on Lolita that there were only three taboos in American publishing: incest, interracial marriage and "the total atheist who lives a happy and useful life, and dies in his sleep at the age of 106." Did Nabokov(or anyone else for that matter), ever write a notable book about this latter taboo?

Trying to think out the ethics involved here ...

WCityMike — Thu, 17 Apr 2008 08:34:07 -0800

I have an ethical or logical quandary that I'm trying to puzzle out. I became an Eagle Scout in 1993. Recently, my membership in the National Eagle Scout Association came up for renewal; I declined to renew my membership due to the Scouts' stance on homosexuality, agnostics, and atheists. I feel that their positions are unethical in that they advocate discrimination and intrude into areas of people's private lives which have no relevance to Scouting.

However, unlike some Eagle Scouts, I declined to send in my Eagle Scout Award to national headquarters as a protest. I declined to do so because I feel that I earned that award by virtue of a lot of hard work over the course of my childhood and adolescence, and I won't deny myself an award I rightfully earned. (Furthermore, I did this work over years of service in which Scouting as a whole was nowhere near as neoconservative as they are nowadays.)

At the risk of sounding like a nerd, for shorthand, let's say that my feelings about Scouts are "principle x". And the caveat — that I won't deny myself the benefits of being an Eagle Scout — is "caveat y".

Now, I'm wondering whether or not to take "action z". Do you know how your college's alumni department got in touch with you a few years after you graduated, offering you the chance to list yourself in, and buy, a national directory of alumni, ostensibly one you could use to get back in touch with people, and for business networking purposes?

Scouting is now doing that with Eagle Scouts, and given the number of Eagle Scouts alive, that's going to be one huge directory — presumably a very useful one, given the number of Eagle Scouts alive.

I am trying to decide whether listing myself in the directory, and ordering a copy, is ethically consistent. On one hand, it breaks x because I'm giving money to them by virtue of purchasing the directory. I'm uneased by that.

On the other hand, the use of this directory for general networking could be invaluable, and thus, that caveat y comes into effect: this directory would definitely be a very useful tool for networking, and thus could easily be considered a benefit of having reached Eagle.

Given principle x, and given caveat y to principle x, is action z morally consistent with x and y? Or is it more moral to not participate in the directory?

(I know that speaking solely in a practical sense, whether or not NESA gets a few bucks from me as a trickledown makes little practical difference to them. I'm trying to consider the underlying principles involved, though.)

If you feel differently than I do about either Scouting, their positions, or how I reacted to those positions, I respect your right to feel differently, but that's not my question, and I prefer this thread not run aground on that.

Why morality?

wigglin — Sat, 05 Apr 2008 16:39:30 -0800

Why do theists bring up morality when arguing for the existence of god? Whenever I am arguing with a believer about the existence of god, they inevitably bring up morality. Their view being that for there to be any morality, it must be derived from an ultimate authority. This makes no sense to me. Obviously our sense of morality has changed through out history, so what reason is there to believe that such a thing as absolute morality exists? Why can’t morality be based off of reason, human solidarity, and the desire to limit human suffering?

Just because it would be nice if there were absolute moral laws to live by, doesn’t necessarily make it true. Something being pleasant does not say anything about its truth value, a fact that I find theists often ignore.

That said, let’s assume god does exist and you are a believer, why bring up morality? How could anyone have any idea what god wants us to do? Unless god is speaking to you directly, your personal morality is as made up as anyone else’s. Religious texts, which are supposedly the word of god, are full of things that modern society deems morally abhorrent(slavery, sexism, child abuse, racism, etc.), so they are irrelevant when talking about morality.

Thanks!

Are there any terms for "atheism" or "irreligious" that aren't negative?

Kattullus — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:58:30 -0800

Are there any terms for "atheism" or "irreligious" that aren't negative? That is, don't mean that someone is "not a believer." It doesn't matter what language the terms are in or if they're archaic or coinages that never took root. I don't mean that "atheism" or "irreligious" are derogatory but that they are definitions away from something.

The closest terms I've come up with are "skeptic" and "free-thinker" but that seems to me to apply more to agnostics than atheists or, at the least, to both groups but not atheists exclusively.

"What's your religion?" Why do they care?

grumblebee — Wed, 09 Jan 2008 07:13:36 -0800

Why did the emergency-room clerk want to know my wife's religion? I took my wife to the emergency room last night, because she was running a 104 fever. Turns out, she has pneumonia (and now has antibiotics and will be fine, I'm sure).

While there, we had to talk to a clerk about the financial end of things. It was all pretty straightforward. "What's sort of insurance do you carry? Who is your employer? Etc."

Then (clearly reading from the same checklist of questions), she asked, "What is your religion?" My wife just stared at her for a second and asked her to repeat the question. It threw me, too. It seemed like a non-sequitur. I've certainly never been asked my religion before, during any sort of formal, financial Q-and-A session.

We're atheists, so after a bit of an uncomfortable pause, my wife said, "non applicable." (I know there's nothing to be ashamed of, but in a big public space, with tons of people around, our atheism isn't something we tend to bring up.)

If it helps, this was New York Methodist Hospital in Brooklyn. Sure, "Methodist," but like most hospitals that are somehow associated with religious organizations, the experience of being there was -- other than this incident -- was totally secular.

Why did the the finance clerk want to know my wife's religion?

Help an atheist make a reading list.

internet!Hannah — Tue, 06 Nov 2007 18:45:43 -0800

Help me find some good atheist reading materials for my birthday. I'm a strong (but not particularly militaristic) atheist that attends a very conservative and religious public university. In fact, I am the only atheist in my dorm. To stave off feeling like an island of atheism, I attend the local atheist/agnostic club meetings (along with my fervently catholic roommate, funnily enough), but lately I've been feeling a worn out by all the sheer amount of overt Christianity I face every day (for instance, I sit through a good two or three unavoidable prayers a day). To help combat this, I'd like to buy myself some good atheist or atheism-related books for my birthday next week.

I'm not too sure where to start, though--I liked The Stranger in high school, as well as Sartre's plays, but I don't know where to go from there. I wouldn't mind getting into some essay works and some books on philosophy, but I have little philosophical background. I'm also not interested in those "Religion is the source of all ills" books--if I subscribed to that belief I wouldn't have lasted a week at this school.

So really, the question is, do you have any good recommendations for me? All suggestions are welcome, from any genre.

(As a point of interest, I've read the Bible and the Qu'ran, and am very solidly versed in Christian theology, so I'm not going to shy away from anything that involves religion from an atheist perspective.)

Converts to atheism or theism

keith0718 — Tue, 24 Jul 2007 11:56:39 -0800

Name some prominent converts to either atheism or theism. I'm looking for books and names of fairly prominent thinkers and authors (ancient to modern) who, at some point in their lives, converted either (i) from atheism to theism, or (ii) from theism to atheism.

Hey! Help me find the damn squirrel in this damn tree called the internets!

Nerro — Fri, 20 Apr 2007 18:01:46 -0800

[Failed Google-Fu Filter] I'm looking for a web comic that was posted on AskMe a few months ago in a comment. If I recall correctly, I believe the post was about finding hope in life with an existentialist view... someone had a comment about even though life had no meaning, there were always squirrels.

The comic was in black and white, pretty simple. Had three panels I believe, one dude on the left being all depressed that there was nothing to life, and the other dude agreeing but happily about it, and on the third panel he's climbing a tree and found a squirrel up there.

Please help, I've been Googling and looking through tags all day! Save me!

Equally Yoked

ztdavis — Tue, 10 Apr 2007 17:03:39 -0800

How any have mefites in christian-atheist relationships and marriages fared? What advice do you have? What do you think about 2 Corinthians 6:14-15? I'm atheist and my fiancée is Christian. We both feel strongly about our beliefs, our love, and respect for one another. Before anything else, I'd like to request snark be kept to a minimum. If you really want to vent, start a thread on MeTa.

A backgrounder:

I'm 22 and have been atheist for 8 or so years. I am a skeptic of most everything, but at the base of it I believe there is a rational non-supernatural explanation for everything. I spent a lot of time in high school trying to prove that God does not exist and found no suitable proof, which in turn led me to believe that religion is a matter of faith. I have none, hence my atheism, but I am willing to warrant that others do, hence their own beliefs. I was raised Christian, have a pretty good understanding of Christian beliefs and doctrines, and respect many many Christians. I make a big distinction between "Christians" that are homophobic, judgmental, full of themselves, closed-minded and hateful as opposed to Christians that are welcoming, loving, helpful in their communities, and not afraid to associate with and be around us sinner types.

Which brings us to my fiancée, Julie (and brand new member jsmarie).

She is 23 and has always been Christian. She believes that Christ is the only way to heaven and salvation (and, as a corollary, that I'm not on a path to heaven). She believes in the Bible. She has a personal relationship with Christ, and that is at the crux of her beliefs. She is aware she sins and doesn't claim any hoity-toityness She does not believe that because I am an evil sinnerman that she should avoid me (obviously). She does not believe that it is her duty in life to convert me. She is the kind of Christian (kind, open, and loving) that I mentioned up above. She gets just as upset and distraught, if not moreso, than I do about groups like the Westboro Baptist Church. She's an archaeologist, so it isn't as if she has been sheltering herself from the world and its many cultures and religions. She is a fan of evolution, and doesn't see why it would preclude God's hand in things.

We started dating over two years ago and got engaged this last November. We are in the middle of planning our wedding, which will be this August. If we put our beliefs in brutal and frank terms: she thinks I'm on my way to hell (but loves me anyway) and I think her personal relationship with Christ is baloney (but love her anyway). Nobody's perfect. Luckily, though, neither of us are fucking assholes that feel a need to constantly tell the other person they're wrong. We have discussed this thoroughly, so it is by no means as if we woke up one day and realized we were getting married but -- oops -- had different world views. We both think that it, just like everything else, is a fair topic for discussion and not anything to be brushed under the rug and ignored. We both think it is important to be involved in the communities we live in. We both think loving each other, our friends, and our families should be a primary goal in life.

We have every intention of keeping our beliefs. I won't go to church with her (unless we have kids), but am perfectly willing to hang out with any friends she has from church and go to non-Sunday morning church functions. If we do have kids, I'm more than willing to raise them as Christians with plenty of attention spent on the importance of skepticism and open mindedness. I was grateful to my parents for raising me in a good home and taking me to a good, loving church. There's a lot to be said for a kind and helpful community, even if they think I'm gonna burn. Neither of us are fearful of our kids having different beliefs than we do. We'd rather have smart kids that can think for themselves.

So things are generally great. We're super excited about the wedding and our marriage. Julie, though, has been fighting with and upset by the idea of an ideal Christian marriage, which she'll be missing out on: one where two individuals come together in marriage as an act of worship. We won't be able to share our beliefs, pray together, make spiritual goals and the like.

Do any mefites out there have any personal experience or advice that would be helpful for her, or for me? I love her, and she loves me, and I don't like seeing her upset by this but there isn't much I can do.

(These threads are similar and helpful: Confused Children and I'm an atheist and my girlfriend is a churchgoer).

Sorry for the length. Thanks to anyone that responds. Hell, thanks to anyone that reads more than a third of this rambling tripe.