Addicted to the thrill of the chase ... help.
February 18, 2007 10:16 PM Subscribe
Can anybody recommend the right book, web site, or support group for me? Over the past 5+ years I have developed the habit of becoming involved with unavailable men, even when there are wonderful, loving men available to me. I seek out the fun, exciting, generous, sexy, dashing, unattainable types with the intent of making them fall in love with me. In short, I am addicted to the thrill of the chase (and enjoying the benefits that come with it). I am at an age where I need to decide what I really want to do about this.
The decision to be made is this: should I just continue feeding off this kind of fun until it runs its course or until I die; or do I need to make myself buckle down and commit to a "regular" relationship with an attainable guy, so I can pursue my desire to have a family? I have reached this crossroads, and I fear I'll regret either decision. Obviously, committing is the "right" thing to do if I want to raise a family. Inside I'm a totally down to earth girl. But my future husband doesn't deserve to marry someone who is afraid she will eventually divorce or cheat on him. And no, that kind of marriage is *never* what I envisioned for myself ... even though many of the "exciting men" in my life are living out exactly that.
The advice of my friends has been useless. Practically speaking, "Grow up," while excellent advice, is really not *that* helpful.
I've read multiple books about this (women who are attracted to bad boys, women who become involved with married men), and after getting into them it's turned out that none so far have really addressed my specific problem. To give some further info: I am not the kind of woman who "needs" a man in her life and I actually thrive on being alone, so there may be commitment phobia going on. (But I don't consciously have a fear of being with "one guy" forever ... just of being with "the less exciting guy".) I do not like to be abused, and none of these "thrilling" relationships have been the least bit abusive. And it's not a situation where I'm constantly deceived, or I feel taken advantage of in any way. It's all me. Also, I treat these men in the most wonderful way I know how; there is no deceit in that direction either. In addition, I feel that if any of these unattainable men who have made me feel so alive over the past few years would actually become available to me, then he would be able to fulfill my needs. (But is that true? How can I test it without waiting for it to happen? Or is this a "grass is greener" situation, cut and dried? And what do I do about that?) Also, when I said "I seek out" in the first paragraph, that's not exactly the case. I do not scour the office for "that" guy; we just find each other, over and over again. This is not intentional at all. I am not a predator.
I am a successful woman in my mid 30s and my clock is ticking. If it weren't for wanting to take part in raising a family, all of this would be moot. It's the pressure of having to make life-changing decisions that has prompted this post. Please help.
(Of course I will read all replies, but I can not post my own replies using this anonymous account. So if you would like to converse with me directly, please use jane0009@gmail.com.)
The decision to be made is this: should I just continue feeding off this kind of fun until it runs its course or until I die; or do I need to make myself buckle down and commit to a "regular" relationship with an attainable guy, so I can pursue my desire to have a family? I have reached this crossroads, and I fear I'll regret either decision. Obviously, committing is the "right" thing to do if I want to raise a family. Inside I'm a totally down to earth girl. But my future husband doesn't deserve to marry someone who is afraid she will eventually divorce or cheat on him. And no, that kind of marriage is *never* what I envisioned for myself ... even though many of the "exciting men" in my life are living out exactly that.
The advice of my friends has been useless. Practically speaking, "Grow up," while excellent advice, is really not *that* helpful.
I've read multiple books about this (women who are attracted to bad boys, women who become involved with married men), and after getting into them it's turned out that none so far have really addressed my specific problem. To give some further info: I am not the kind of woman who "needs" a man in her life and I actually thrive on being alone, so there may be commitment phobia going on. (But I don't consciously have a fear of being with "one guy" forever ... just of being with "the less exciting guy".) I do not like to be abused, and none of these "thrilling" relationships have been the least bit abusive. And it's not a situation where I'm constantly deceived, or I feel taken advantage of in any way. It's all me. Also, I treat these men in the most wonderful way I know how; there is no deceit in that direction either. In addition, I feel that if any of these unattainable men who have made me feel so alive over the past few years would actually become available to me, then he would be able to fulfill my needs. (But is that true? How can I test it without waiting for it to happen? Or is this a "grass is greener" situation, cut and dried? And what do I do about that?) Also, when I said "I seek out" in the first paragraph, that's not exactly the case. I do not scour the office for "that" guy; we just find each other, over and over again. This is not intentional at all. I am not a predator.
I am a successful woman in my mid 30s and my clock is ticking. If it weren't for wanting to take part in raising a family, all of this would be moot. It's the pressure of having to make life-changing decisions that has prompted this post. Please help.
(Of course I will read all replies, but I can not post my own replies using this anonymous account. So if you would like to converse with me directly, please use jane0009@gmail.com.)
I'll give my stock advice here, read Intimate Connections by Dr. David Burns. Most advice books tell you how you should be. This one tells you how you can get there if you want to. Among other problems, it deals with this specific problem and gives you a path to get there.
Counseling with a therapist who understands the method described in the book is going to really, really help you attain the goals you decide you want.
As for the question of which you should do, write down a list of pros and cons for this particular belief. You'll be surprised at the results, I'd be willing to bet.
posted by Ironmouth at 11:12 PM on February 18, 2007 [1 favorite]
Counseling with a therapist who understands the method described in the book is going to really, really help you attain the goals you decide you want.
As for the question of which you should do, write down a list of pros and cons for this particular belief. You'll be surprised at the results, I'd be willing to bet.
posted by Ironmouth at 11:12 PM on February 18, 2007 [1 favorite]
I'd also add that your self-analysis indicates a strong chance for success at finding a path to whatever you decide. Hard work will be needed though.
posted by Ironmouth at 11:15 PM on February 18, 2007
posted by Ironmouth at 11:15 PM on February 18, 2007
So what you're saying is that you're a woman who's not ready for kids yet, and you're saying that despite everything you've tried, you're not ready to settle down yet?
Hon, someone's going to come along some day who's got just enough of that 'devil may care' attitude, but is also stable enough to have kids with. You'll marry him, and you won't feel the itch a year or two later with one kid just out of the oven and the 2nd in the planning stage. I've been watching that happen.
Compare this to my dillema: I want to settle down and have kids, but keep getting into relationships with weirdos, which is making me wish I was a bit more like you.
Keep on going the way you're going. You're fine. No psychotherapy necessary. If you're willing to look at yourself this closely, you can't help but lead a good healthy life.
posted by SpecialK at 11:17 PM on February 18, 2007
Hon, someone's going to come along some day who's got just enough of that 'devil may care' attitude, but is also stable enough to have kids with. You'll marry him, and you won't feel the itch a year or two later with one kid just out of the oven and the 2nd in the planning stage. I've been watching that happen.
Compare this to my dillema: I want to settle down and have kids, but keep getting into relationships with weirdos, which is making me wish I was a bit more like you.
Keep on going the way you're going. You're fine. No psychotherapy necessary. If you're willing to look at yourself this closely, you can't help but lead a good healthy life.
posted by SpecialK at 11:17 PM on February 18, 2007
Examine closely why you want to have children and raise a family, and are seeking a suitable sperm donor to aid you. Isn't this a perverted order of things?
posted by phrontist at 11:17 PM on February 18, 2007
posted by phrontist at 11:17 PM on February 18, 2007
I've read multiple books about this...
Don't do that. Just think about what you want and what you are like. This stuff is simple.
If you are not the kind of woman who needs a man in her life and you thrive on being alone, then don't get married. You will be happier unmarried.
If you have to have a kid (probably not -- don't be pressured into anything by that "ticking clock" now-or-never tripe), then have one, but don't marry the father.
posted by pracowity at 2:07 AM on February 19, 2007
Don't do that. Just think about what you want and what you are like. This stuff is simple.
If you are not the kind of woman who needs a man in her life and you thrive on being alone, then don't get married. You will be happier unmarried.
If you have to have a kid (probably not -- don't be pressured into anything by that "ticking clock" now-or-never tripe), then have one, but don't marry the father.
posted by pracowity at 2:07 AM on February 19, 2007
Can I just point out how strangely uplifting it is to read an AskMe question about relationship strife in which the question does not indicate massive delusion or denial on the part of the asker, or point to huge unexamined issues that are quite separate to whatever the asker believes to be the problem?
This isn't meant to be an entirely useless comment. What I mean is, I can't believe that anyone who can examine and express themselves this well can't ultimately find a good outcome. I realize that's not a solution but maybe it will be a reassurance.
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 3:21 AM on February 19, 2007 [2 favorites]
This isn't meant to be an entirely useless comment. What I mean is, I can't believe that anyone who can examine and express themselves this well can't ultimately find a good outcome. I realize that's not a solution but maybe it will be a reassurance.
posted by game warden to the events rhino at 3:21 AM on February 19, 2007 [2 favorites]
Over the past 5+ years I have developed the habit of becoming involved with unavailable men
So, what's changed over the past five years? What were you liked before that?
But my future husband doesn't deserve to marry someone who is afraid she will eventually divorce or cheat on him.
Is this fear, based on some high standard, talking?
with the intent of making them fall in love with me
Or are you looking for some great challenge that will somehow prove your worth.
Whatever it is, it sounds like you're working out some emotional problems via your relationships, especially since this started 5 years ago. Find a good therapist to bounce these questions off of.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:50 AM on February 19, 2007
So, what's changed over the past five years? What were you liked before that?
But my future husband doesn't deserve to marry someone who is afraid she will eventually divorce or cheat on him.
Is this fear, based on some high standard, talking?
with the intent of making them fall in love with me
Or are you looking for some great challenge that will somehow prove your worth.
Whatever it is, it sounds like you're working out some emotional problems via your relationships, especially since this started 5 years ago. Find a good therapist to bounce these questions off of.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:50 AM on February 19, 2007
You know, what if one of these men does become available to you? Do you want a husband who already has a habit of cheating on his wife? That is something to consider when you are ready to settle down.
posted by Loto at 5:00 AM on February 19, 2007
posted by Loto at 5:00 AM on February 19, 2007
I wouldn't recommend a book, support group or web site to you, but I would recommend that you think about the myths you seem to have successfully incorporated.
One is that you have to be married to be settled. Another is that you have to be married to have kids. Another is that you have to have kids. Yet another is that marriage is a monogamous state.
All of this MIGHT have been valid mythology 200 years ago, but now, you don't have to have a partner to have a baby... just some sperm. It's widely available, fresh or frozen.
In your mid-30's, it is harder to get pregnant than you think. There's some truth to the hillbilly legends of my youth that girls were past their prime at 20. Perhaps a book or two here would help. If you want a baby, anon, you'd better get off your ass and have one soon. (Technical term for late 30's mommas? ... "geriatric mothers"...really!)
Your clock is not just ticking, it is WINDING DOWN RINGING and getting quiet.
Along those lines... just how probable do you think it is that in the next 5 years, you will find "the one" whom you have been successfully avoiding for the last 35? "The one" whom you LOVE, lust for, wants kids, is available, is willing, is destined to cross your path? I'd say low to none. You'll probably have to settle on one or more of those items, if not all. And how fertile do you think you'll be in 5 years? Certainly not more than now.
You also have said as much that your are worried about infidelity if you DO find someone. I'd say, forget that worry. Just plan on it. Then perhaps ask yourself, "Do I really need a husband to have a baby?"and "When I eventually cheat, how will this affect the child?".
Anon, there is nothing wrong with what you are doing. It all works for you. Consider separating the marriage thing from the baby thing and move on to getting what you want. Be non-traditional. Be a real woman. Identify, seek, and achieve what YOU want the way YOU want it. It's perfectly OK to be different. You don't need permission from anyone, not a book, web site, or support group, or some yoyo like me on MeFi. Just do it.
posted by FauxScot at 5:47 AM on February 19, 2007
One is that you have to be married to be settled. Another is that you have to be married to have kids. Another is that you have to have kids. Yet another is that marriage is a monogamous state.
All of this MIGHT have been valid mythology 200 years ago, but now, you don't have to have a partner to have a baby... just some sperm. It's widely available, fresh or frozen.
In your mid-30's, it is harder to get pregnant than you think. There's some truth to the hillbilly legends of my youth that girls were past their prime at 20. Perhaps a book or two here would help. If you want a baby, anon, you'd better get off your ass and have one soon. (Technical term for late 30's mommas? ... "geriatric mothers"...really!)
Your clock is not just ticking, it is WINDING DOWN RINGING and getting quiet.
Along those lines... just how probable do you think it is that in the next 5 years, you will find "the one" whom you have been successfully avoiding for the last 35? "The one" whom you LOVE, lust for, wants kids, is available, is willing, is destined to cross your path? I'd say low to none. You'll probably have to settle on one or more of those items, if not all. And how fertile do you think you'll be in 5 years? Certainly not more than now.
You also have said as much that your are worried about infidelity if you DO find someone. I'd say, forget that worry. Just plan on it. Then perhaps ask yourself, "Do I really need a husband to have a baby?"and "When I eventually cheat, how will this affect the child?".
Anon, there is nothing wrong with what you are doing. It all works for you. Consider separating the marriage thing from the baby thing and move on to getting what you want. Be non-traditional. Be a real woman. Identify, seek, and achieve what YOU want the way YOU want it. It's perfectly OK to be different. You don't need permission from anyone, not a book, web site, or support group, or some yoyo like me on MeFi. Just do it.
posted by FauxScot at 5:47 AM on February 19, 2007
Find a therapist, pronto.
posted by nj_subgenius at 6:16 AM on February 19, 2007
posted by nj_subgenius at 6:16 AM on February 19, 2007
Your clock is not just ticking, it is WINDING DOWN RINGING and getting quiet.
Um, that isn't always the case. Yes, it might be more difficult getting pregnant the older you get but it might not be. Your biological clock is specific to YOU, and no one other than your doctor can tell you whether it is ringing or not. Especially a male engineer. Sorry, fauxscott. I had my first kid at 40 and got pregnant one month after we started trying. I was haranged about this "biological clock thing"--mostly by men and grandmothers--until the day she was born.
anon, good for you for recognizing that your current patterns are pretty self-destructive. I would nth seeing a therapist who could help you to sort out what is behind your inclinations. Until you've got that sorted out, you may not be happy in a marriage or as a mother, since both can require sacrificing at least some of your desires for the benefit of another person. I would recommend that you put your energy into creating a sane, stable life for yourself first and then you can think about adding other people to the mix.
posted by jeanmari at 6:27 AM on February 19, 2007
Um, that isn't always the case. Yes, it might be more difficult getting pregnant the older you get but it might not be. Your biological clock is specific to YOU, and no one other than your doctor can tell you whether it is ringing or not. Especially a male engineer. Sorry, fauxscott. I had my first kid at 40 and got pregnant one month after we started trying. I was haranged about this "biological clock thing"--mostly by men and grandmothers--until the day she was born.
anon, good for you for recognizing that your current patterns are pretty self-destructive. I would nth seeing a therapist who could help you to sort out what is behind your inclinations. Until you've got that sorted out, you may not be happy in a marriage or as a mother, since both can require sacrificing at least some of your desires for the benefit of another person. I would recommend that you put your energy into creating a sane, stable life for yourself first and then you can think about adding other people to the mix.
posted by jeanmari at 6:27 AM on February 19, 2007
Age and pregnancy isn't just a question of fertility, it's also a question of miscarriage(s).
Anyhow for me the underlying issue seems to be that the original asker seems to be of the "magical" school of relationships. That what happens in matters of love is magic and non-rational and unpredictable and akin to lightning strikes and rainbows. Sorry if that's putting it too harshly.
When you're friends are saying "grow up" - that is actually useful advice IF you understand that it's code for "quit thinking magically - if you want X or Y or Z, then commit to it and seek it out." In other words, make a decision and then translate that decision into behavior.
posted by mikel at 7:29 AM on February 19, 2007
Anyhow for me the underlying issue seems to be that the original asker seems to be of the "magical" school of relationships. That what happens in matters of love is magic and non-rational and unpredictable and akin to lightning strikes and rainbows. Sorry if that's putting it too harshly.
When you're friends are saying "grow up" - that is actually useful advice IF you understand that it's code for "quit thinking magically - if you want X or Y or Z, then commit to it and seek it out." In other words, make a decision and then translate that decision into behavior.
posted by mikel at 7:29 AM on February 19, 2007
jeanmarie...
I am speaking from experience, too, on the other side of the baby making equation.
Male engineers can understand statistics, even if they don't have ovaries. Perhaps you'd like to venture as to why 20 year old girls aren't the major constituent of fertility clinic patients, whereas 35-50 y/o are?
Anon needs to get busy. Or should she just be happy go lucky and wait till she's 60? Technology (from engineers, btw) will come to the rescue!
The race is not always to the swiftest, nor the battle to the strongest, but that's sure the way to bet. Your experience is certainly not the norm and a single data point does not make a case, nor sound advice.
posted by FauxScot at 7:40 AM on February 19, 2007
I am speaking from experience, too, on the other side of the baby making equation.
Male engineers can understand statistics, even if they don't have ovaries. Perhaps you'd like to venture as to why 20 year old girls aren't the major constituent of fertility clinic patients, whereas 35-50 y/o are?
Anon needs to get busy. Or should she just be happy go lucky and wait till she's 60? Technology (from engineers, btw) will come to the rescue!
The race is not always to the swiftest, nor the battle to the strongest, but that's sure the way to bet. Your experience is certainly not the norm and a single data point does not make a case, nor sound advice.
posted by FauxScot at 7:40 AM on February 19, 2007
I think there may be some men out there who would be emotionally stable enough for long-term relationships and parenting yet still have that dashing unattainable streak that keeps your thrills up and your independence in demand. Film directors who will spend months at a time away from home, successful touring musicians, actors and opera singers, entrepreneurial CEO types, etc. However, you may not find these creatures in the places you usually find your married or standard-grade unavailable men.
posted by xo at 9:18 AM on February 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by xo at 9:18 AM on February 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
I think the poster does want help and does want a book. That's what she asked for.
A lot of this is going to be about realizing that what you consider to be uncontrollable urges are really just unacknowledged choices. There are some good books out there, but they should be strongly grounded in actual psychotherapy, not your regular "Men are From Mars" stuff. Whatever book you do find shouldn't be about who you should be, it should be about evaluating what you are doing, deciding if it is right for you and if you want a change, giving you guidance on how to change your outlook so as to produce the desired results.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:46 AM on February 19, 2007
A lot of this is going to be about realizing that what you consider to be uncontrollable urges are really just unacknowledged choices. There are some good books out there, but they should be strongly grounded in actual psychotherapy, not your regular "Men are From Mars" stuff. Whatever book you do find shouldn't be about who you should be, it should be about evaluating what you are doing, deciding if it is right for you and if you want a change, giving you guidance on how to change your outlook so as to produce the desired results.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:46 AM on February 19, 2007
Clearly, the poster does feel that there's something wrong with what she's doing; otherwise, she wouldn't have asked the question.
My feeling -- and keep in mind that I'm nothing resembling a mental health professional -- is that this kind of behavior, in addition to being at the very least unethical, is ultimately unfulfilling and unhealthy.
The self-esteem boost of knowing that you can get a dude, even a married dude, to like you, that you can get him to like you so much that he's willing to jeopardize his marriage and his relationship with his children in order to be with you...well, that's a powerful rush, and you're right to call it addictive. But it also means that you are incapable of a real, emotionally committed relationship, because as soon as the thrill of being wanted wears off (and it always does), you lose interest and start eying the next conquest.
My advice is, I'm afraid, kind of boring. See a mental health professional. This is their bread and butter, and a competent therapist will work with you to find a more constructive way for you to fulfill your need to feel attractive and wanted.
posted by myeviltwin at 1:19 PM on February 19, 2007
My feeling -- and keep in mind that I'm nothing resembling a mental health professional -- is that this kind of behavior, in addition to being at the very least unethical, is ultimately unfulfilling and unhealthy.
The self-esteem boost of knowing that you can get a dude, even a married dude, to like you, that you can get him to like you so much that he's willing to jeopardize his marriage and his relationship with his children in order to be with you...well, that's a powerful rush, and you're right to call it addictive. But it also means that you are incapable of a real, emotionally committed relationship, because as soon as the thrill of being wanted wears off (and it always does), you lose interest and start eying the next conquest.
My advice is, I'm afraid, kind of boring. See a mental health professional. This is their bread and butter, and a competent therapist will work with you to find a more constructive way for you to fulfill your need to feel attractive and wanted.
posted by myeviltwin at 1:19 PM on February 19, 2007
I am speaking from experience, too, on the other side of the baby making equation.
anon--My advice to you is above. I would only add that you should never let anyone, male or female, try to scare you into having a child before you feel that you are emotionally ready by crying "biological clock! biological clock!." That would neither benefit you nor a future child.
It sounds like you are concerned about getting your life in order before entering a long-term relationship or having a child. Good for you. Focus on that.
posted by jeanmari at 1:48 PM on February 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
anon--My advice to you is above. I would only add that you should never let anyone, male or female, try to scare you into having a child before you feel that you are emotionally ready by crying "biological clock! biological clock!." That would neither benefit you nor a future child.
It sounds like you are concerned about getting your life in order before entering a long-term relationship or having a child. Good for you. Focus on that.
posted by jeanmari at 1:48 PM on February 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
There’s a lot more to having kids than becoming pregnant. I decided I was too old in my mid thirties. I wasn’t in a financial state to fund both a child and my retirement; I would need to work full time and was not interested in bringing a child into the world only to put it in daycare when it was six weeks old; I didn’t feel up to spending the years 35 to 40 sleepless; and if I had a child who had some kind of disability, I wouldn’t want to be too old to help out when the child was an adult.
I’d always wanted children, but not on just any terms. I never had the conditions I thought were critical for successful child-rearing, so I never had any. I was sad, but it was the right decision for me and I moved on.
If you want a child, create the circumstances. Follow Gloria Steinem’s advice — become the man you want to marry.
Regarding hope for a relationship, you might surprise yourself. I was convinced I was far too crazy for an LTR, instead focussing on one-night stands with strangers, but I found someone anyway. Someone I am still happy about every day, five years later.
Knowing what you want so that you recognise it when you find it helps. A lot.
posted by kika at 2:52 PM on February 19, 2007 [3 favorites]
I’d always wanted children, but not on just any terms. I never had the conditions I thought were critical for successful child-rearing, so I never had any. I was sad, but it was the right decision for me and I moved on.
If you want a child, create the circumstances. Follow Gloria Steinem’s advice — become the man you want to marry.
Regarding hope for a relationship, you might surprise yourself. I was convinced I was far too crazy for an LTR, instead focussing on one-night stands with strangers, but I found someone anyway. Someone I am still happy about every day, five years later.
Knowing what you want so that you recognise it when you find it helps. A lot.
posted by kika at 2:52 PM on February 19, 2007 [3 favorites]
Oh - books. Have you read the Ethical Slut? It’s quite nice, about communication and knowing what you want and recognising when we want things that hurt us and how we handle that. (For example, wanting an open relationship and feeling jealous when our lover has sex with someone else.)
I know you don’t want an open relationship, you want monogamy, but still. Books about difficult or paradoxical life choices are good.
posted by kika at 2:57 PM on February 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
I know you don’t want an open relationship, you want monogamy, but still. Books about difficult or paradoxical life choices are good.
posted by kika at 2:57 PM on February 19, 2007 [1 favorite]
jeanmari: "I am speaking from experience, too, on the other side of the baby making equation.
anon--My advice to you is above. I would only add that you should never let anyone, male or female, try to scare you into having a child before you feel that you are emotionally ready by crying "biological clock! biological clock!." That would neither benefit you nor a future child."
Yeah. One thing that maybe men might have trouble really understanding is the pressure that women feel about their fertility. It's pervasive. I don't know if I want children -- I don't even like kids -- but being single at 32 I sometimes do worry that my chance will dry up before I meet someone I want to make a family with. It genuinely concerns me. I know I'm not alone among my friends.
Anon. How about accepting adoption as a possibility? There are children out there who could benefit from the maturity you would have as an older parent.
posted by loiseau at 11:16 PM on February 19, 2007
anon--My advice to you is above. I would only add that you should never let anyone, male or female, try to scare you into having a child before you feel that you are emotionally ready by crying "biological clock! biological clock!." That would neither benefit you nor a future child."
Yeah. One thing that maybe men might have trouble really understanding is the pressure that women feel about their fertility. It's pervasive. I don't know if I want children -- I don't even like kids -- but being single at 32 I sometimes do worry that my chance will dry up before I meet someone I want to make a family with. It genuinely concerns me. I know I'm not alone among my friends.
Anon. How about accepting adoption as a possibility? There are children out there who could benefit from the maturity you would have as an older parent.
posted by loiseau at 11:16 PM on February 19, 2007
Hmmmmm... I'd recommend the book, Thrill of the Chaste, by Dawn Eden.
posted by keith0718 at 1:49 AM on February 21, 2007
posted by keith0718 at 1:49 AM on February 21, 2007
My question is a few weeks old now, so I don't expect wide readership of this post. But maybe those of you who marked this question as a favorite will revisit it.
I'm anonymous. I forked over $5 just so I could have an account to post "anonymously" and also have a name. I did not expect such a variety of replies, and for that I thank you *all*. Every comment has been helpful.
Ironmouth: Thank you. I've since read most of Intimate Connections, and it has been extremely helpful to me. Something I should have mentioned in my original question was that my experience with one-on-one therapy has not been of much use. I've been in therapy and have never related to my therapists in any way. (This was many years ago, with your run of the mill depression/anxiety, which it turns out I am able to keep down myself with healthy diet and exercise. I am not and have never been seriously depressed.) They would even ask me questions like, "why would you do that?" or, "don't you think such-and-such would be a better thing to do?" Well, duh. What I needed was help *getting* there. The author of this book actually has tools/worksheets/what-have-yous that have helped me actually quantify some of the things I'm feeling in order to better understand them.
In addition, I learned about romantic/partner/emotional perfectionism. Basically, I want my partner and my relationship to be exactly the way I want it to be, to live up to an impossibly high set of standards. That's where I am in my current relationship (yes, I have one, hence this crisis): I have a 100-item list of things that bug me about my boyfriend that I naturally did not have when our relationship was new, but now that the "honeymoon period" is over I just don't know if I can live with these awful, terrible things. I realize this fully, and I'm sure he could come up with just as long a list. Now we'll see if I can get over it.
So, all that said, I'm not yet cured. ;)
SpecialK: I feel I *am* ready for kids; I'd like to be reading stories to them right now, but I haven't formed a real relationship with a guy I'm willing to settle down *with*. (It all sounds so much like just settling to me.)
Hon, someone's going to come along some day who's got just enough of that 'devil may care' attitude, but is also stable enough to have kids with. You'll marry him, and you won't feel the itch a year or two later with one kid just out of the oven and the 2nd in the planning stage. I've been watching that happen.
*That* is what, or whom, I have been hoping and waiting for. :) That's my sincere hope.
phrontist:
Examine closely why you want to have children and raise a family, and are seeking a suitable sperm donor to aid you. Isn't this a perverted order of things?
Well, if you go by some set of rules, I guess. I don't see anything inherently wrong with wanting to raise children but not necessarily wanting to have to share my bed with a man every night, except that that's not the conventional way it's done. But of course, I actually *do* want to share my bed with a man every night; the problem is finding the right man.
game warden: Aw, thanks. ;) I was actually afraid of how I'd come off here.
brandon:
So, what's changed over the past five years? What were you liked before that?
Oh hell, I don't know. I suspect some part of this is like becoming an adrenaline junkie. Five years ago it just so happened that I had a series of very high-spark romances and that kind of passion and attention is what I have found myself craving. I had never had it before, so I didn't know what I was missing. Now I so enjoy the beginnings of any relationship that has that insanely high high. With the unattainable types the high never fully recedes because I never actually get the guy all to myself and everything remains illicit. With an available guy, when the high starts receding, that's when I want to jump ship. Probably the outlaw factor makes the unavailable ones that much more exciting; also, they're generally looking for something particularly hot since they're probably many years into a marriage, or they're just particularly libidinous, or what-have-you.
Loto:
You know, what if one of these men does become available to you? Do you want a husband who already has a habit of cheating on his wife? That is something to consider when you are ready to settle down.
A few sentences should sum up my feelings about that (numerous friends have already posed that question to me): There are roughly two million things that can cause fatal dysfunction in a marriage, and to me, infidelity barely makes the list. (Oh, it does make the list, but it's not in my top three.) Like that old man said in yesterday's "best of craigslist" post in the Blue, "If you must cheat, don’t humiliate her." I don't wish to be flagrantly disrespected, I don't want to be made a fool, I don't want to be regularly lied to or taken for granted, but please, cheat on me before you stop communicating with me, before you lie to me about where you're spending our money, before you neglect your responsibilities with our kids. Infidelity can have all, or absolutely nothing, to do with the present relationship, and I know because I've been there. Sometimes it keeps people sane, sometimes it prevents divorce. Sure, the ideal and perfect marriage doesn't involve infidelity, but I don't see any reason why that particular misdeed would be the deal breaker. (For a 30-something couple who has already had lots of sex with lots of people, anyway. My married-my-high-school-sweetheart friends probably mainly disagree with me simply because they haven't already been with a whole bunch of other people. The thought of their spouse being with someone else is repugnant, when for me, the thought of him not having been with anybody else is silly.)
FauxScot: I'm totally hearing you. Not necessarily about the clock stuff; that varies so widely from individual to individual. I've actually recently read that the *man* needs to start paying attention to his own clock as well (something about there being more problems with men trying to impregnate over 40 than women trying to conceive? -- I'm not looking it up right now; please don't flame me if I'm totally off base); I've also read that the chance of birth defects when the mother is over 40 is greater than the chance of birth defects if the couple is related ... I can only freak out about it all to a certain degree. I want to try to keep it to under 40, but I'm not going to make any completely rash decisions to achieve that.
But on everything else, I'm really hearing you.
mikel: Yep, yep, yep. I've recognized one of my problems as being the fairy-tale scenario. I want my knight to ride up on a white horse and make me feel wonderful for the rest of my life, and for that to never change. I know it's irrational and unattainable. And I need to incorporate that knowledge into my relationships.
kika: I'm going to find The Ethical Slut. I would actually *love* to try an open relationship. Since college I've liked that idea. I've since had a lot of practice being with men who are regularly with other women, and it doesn't seem to faze me; I've also been in relationships where we have sex with other people (in each others' presence), so while I tend to believe that open relationships probably don't work for the vast majority of couples, they might work for me. Now, to find an available guy who is willing to try that. ;) However, it's not my goal. Also having done the whole swingers/orgy "thing", I feel that I've kind of been-there-done-that ... I'm not sure that if my spouse consents to my fooling around it'll even stay fun. I just don't know. As I say, I don't know if I really believe this is the answer to this problem, but the book can't be a bad read.
Regarding children: 5-10 years ago I decided that if I reached age 35 and still had no marriage prospects, that I'd have children on my own, one way or another. (Sperm bank or some consensual situation; adoption; nothing shady!) I was very happy with that idea for a long time. Now I'm 34, and getting so close to my self-imposed deadline, it scares the crud out of me. Not having children, but having children *alone*. Even walking my dogs by myself can be lonely ... the idea of raising children all by myself sounds like the loneliest proposition in the world. Yes, I like living alone (the ability to do what I want when I want, make all the decisions, etc) but having the *right* person around, if I could find him, would be only a positive addition.
Then again, it's just my dogs and me at home and walking around the block; with children we'd actually *do* things together and there would be sitters and day care and play groups and other parents and then the kids' friends and with all of that going on, I know it wouldn't be as lonely as I'm thinking. Plus I know family and friends would become a strong support system for me.
Another thing I've been thinking, though, is that I don't necessarily need children of my own. It's been a foregone conclusion for years that if I settle down with a guy it'll be a divorced guy (just because of my age), and maybe it'll be a divorced guy with children. Having kids is a gamble anyway; there's no telling what will happen, how well they'll "turn out", if you'll have a rewarding relationship with them, or if they'll die of leukemia at age 5. Helping raise someone else's kids, I think, could be just as satisfying. More obstacles, perhaps, but you do the best you can. I just love all of the change and growth that comes with having a family. After all, if I don't have kids, I'll just go on like I am forever. Working, traveling, having fun with friends, walking the dogs. Nice, but stagnant. It's the constant challenge and room for growth that excites me about having a family. (Constant challenge and change -- much like what I crave with these relationships.) So ... this is why I'm thinking I should maybe not rush into anything ... maybe another solution will present itself.
Some days I wake up and think, "I think I can put my all into my relationship today." Other days I schedule lunch dates with my guy-on-the-sly just to ask him to not contact me for a couple weeks so that I can focus on things without distraction. (And then when we meet, I don't bring it up.) This week, I've been able to focus on the relationship.
Sorry so long. If I didn't single you out in my reply, don't take it personally. ;)
posted by jane0009 at 6:54 PM on March 16, 2007 [1 favorite]
I'm anonymous. I forked over $5 just so I could have an account to post "anonymously" and also have a name. I did not expect such a variety of replies, and for that I thank you *all*. Every comment has been helpful.
Ironmouth: Thank you. I've since read most of Intimate Connections, and it has been extremely helpful to me. Something I should have mentioned in my original question was that my experience with one-on-one therapy has not been of much use. I've been in therapy and have never related to my therapists in any way. (This was many years ago, with your run of the mill depression/anxiety, which it turns out I am able to keep down myself with healthy diet and exercise. I am not and have never been seriously depressed.) They would even ask me questions like, "why would you do that?" or, "don't you think such-and-such would be a better thing to do?" Well, duh. What I needed was help *getting* there. The author of this book actually has tools/worksheets/what-have-yous that have helped me actually quantify some of the things I'm feeling in order to better understand them.
In addition, I learned about romantic/partner/emotional perfectionism. Basically, I want my partner and my relationship to be exactly the way I want it to be, to live up to an impossibly high set of standards. That's where I am in my current relationship (yes, I have one, hence this crisis): I have a 100-item list of things that bug me about my boyfriend that I naturally did not have when our relationship was new, but now that the "honeymoon period" is over I just don't know if I can live with these awful, terrible things. I realize this fully, and I'm sure he could come up with just as long a list. Now we'll see if I can get over it.
So, all that said, I'm not yet cured. ;)
SpecialK: I feel I *am* ready for kids; I'd like to be reading stories to them right now, but I haven't formed a real relationship with a guy I'm willing to settle down *with*. (It all sounds so much like just settling to me.)
Hon, someone's going to come along some day who's got just enough of that 'devil may care' attitude, but is also stable enough to have kids with. You'll marry him, and you won't feel the itch a year or two later with one kid just out of the oven and the 2nd in the planning stage. I've been watching that happen.
*That* is what, or whom, I have been hoping and waiting for. :) That's my sincere hope.
phrontist:
Examine closely why you want to have children and raise a family, and are seeking a suitable sperm donor to aid you. Isn't this a perverted order of things?
Well, if you go by some set of rules, I guess. I don't see anything inherently wrong with wanting to raise children but not necessarily wanting to have to share my bed with a man every night, except that that's not the conventional way it's done. But of course, I actually *do* want to share my bed with a man every night; the problem is finding the right man.
game warden: Aw, thanks. ;) I was actually afraid of how I'd come off here.
brandon:
So, what's changed over the past five years? What were you liked before that?
Oh hell, I don't know. I suspect some part of this is like becoming an adrenaline junkie. Five years ago it just so happened that I had a series of very high-spark romances and that kind of passion and attention is what I have found myself craving. I had never had it before, so I didn't know what I was missing. Now I so enjoy the beginnings of any relationship that has that insanely high high. With the unattainable types the high never fully recedes because I never actually get the guy all to myself and everything remains illicit. With an available guy, when the high starts receding, that's when I want to jump ship. Probably the outlaw factor makes the unavailable ones that much more exciting; also, they're generally looking for something particularly hot since they're probably many years into a marriage, or they're just particularly libidinous, or what-have-you.
Loto:
You know, what if one of these men does become available to you? Do you want a husband who already has a habit of cheating on his wife? That is something to consider when you are ready to settle down.
A few sentences should sum up my feelings about that (numerous friends have already posed that question to me): There are roughly two million things that can cause fatal dysfunction in a marriage, and to me, infidelity barely makes the list. (Oh, it does make the list, but it's not in my top three.) Like that old man said in yesterday's "best of craigslist" post in the Blue, "If you must cheat, don’t humiliate her." I don't wish to be flagrantly disrespected, I don't want to be made a fool, I don't want to be regularly lied to or taken for granted, but please, cheat on me before you stop communicating with me, before you lie to me about where you're spending our money, before you neglect your responsibilities with our kids. Infidelity can have all, or absolutely nothing, to do with the present relationship, and I know because I've been there. Sometimes it keeps people sane, sometimes it prevents divorce. Sure, the ideal and perfect marriage doesn't involve infidelity, but I don't see any reason why that particular misdeed would be the deal breaker. (For a 30-something couple who has already had lots of sex with lots of people, anyway. My married-my-high-school-sweetheart friends probably mainly disagree with me simply because they haven't already been with a whole bunch of other people. The thought of their spouse being with someone else is repugnant, when for me, the thought of him not having been with anybody else is silly.)
FauxScot: I'm totally hearing you. Not necessarily about the clock stuff; that varies so widely from individual to individual. I've actually recently read that the *man* needs to start paying attention to his own clock as well (something about there being more problems with men trying to impregnate over 40 than women trying to conceive? -- I'm not looking it up right now; please don't flame me if I'm totally off base); I've also read that the chance of birth defects when the mother is over 40 is greater than the chance of birth defects if the couple is related ... I can only freak out about it all to a certain degree. I want to try to keep it to under 40, but I'm not going to make any completely rash decisions to achieve that.
But on everything else, I'm really hearing you.
mikel: Yep, yep, yep. I've recognized one of my problems as being the fairy-tale scenario. I want my knight to ride up on a white horse and make me feel wonderful for the rest of my life, and for that to never change. I know it's irrational and unattainable. And I need to incorporate that knowledge into my relationships.
kika: I'm going to find The Ethical Slut. I would actually *love* to try an open relationship. Since college I've liked that idea. I've since had a lot of practice being with men who are regularly with other women, and it doesn't seem to faze me; I've also been in relationships where we have sex with other people (in each others' presence), so while I tend to believe that open relationships probably don't work for the vast majority of couples, they might work for me. Now, to find an available guy who is willing to try that. ;) However, it's not my goal. Also having done the whole swingers/orgy "thing", I feel that I've kind of been-there-done-that ... I'm not sure that if my spouse consents to my fooling around it'll even stay fun. I just don't know. As I say, I don't know if I really believe this is the answer to this problem, but the book can't be a bad read.
Regarding children: 5-10 years ago I decided that if I reached age 35 and still had no marriage prospects, that I'd have children on my own, one way or another. (Sperm bank or some consensual situation; adoption; nothing shady!) I was very happy with that idea for a long time. Now I'm 34, and getting so close to my self-imposed deadline, it scares the crud out of me. Not having children, but having children *alone*. Even walking my dogs by myself can be lonely ... the idea of raising children all by myself sounds like the loneliest proposition in the world. Yes, I like living alone (the ability to do what I want when I want, make all the decisions, etc) but having the *right* person around, if I could find him, would be only a positive addition.
Then again, it's just my dogs and me at home and walking around the block; with children we'd actually *do* things together and there would be sitters and day care and play groups and other parents and then the kids' friends and with all of that going on, I know it wouldn't be as lonely as I'm thinking. Plus I know family and friends would become a strong support system for me.
Another thing I've been thinking, though, is that I don't necessarily need children of my own. It's been a foregone conclusion for years that if I settle down with a guy it'll be a divorced guy (just because of my age), and maybe it'll be a divorced guy with children. Having kids is a gamble anyway; there's no telling what will happen, how well they'll "turn out", if you'll have a rewarding relationship with them, or if they'll die of leukemia at age 5. Helping raise someone else's kids, I think, could be just as satisfying. More obstacles, perhaps, but you do the best you can. I just love all of the change and growth that comes with having a family. After all, if I don't have kids, I'll just go on like I am forever. Working, traveling, having fun with friends, walking the dogs. Nice, but stagnant. It's the constant challenge and room for growth that excites me about having a family. (Constant challenge and change -- much like what I crave with these relationships.) So ... this is why I'm thinking I should maybe not rush into anything ... maybe another solution will present itself.
Some days I wake up and think, "I think I can put my all into my relationship today." Other days I schedule lunch dates with my guy-on-the-sly just to ask him to not contact me for a couple weeks so that I can focus on things without distraction. (And then when we meet, I don't bring it up.) This week, I've been able to focus on the relationship.
Sorry so long. If I didn't single you out in my reply, don't take it personally. ;)
posted by jane0009 at 6:54 PM on March 16, 2007 [1 favorite]
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posted by davidmsc at 10:50 PM on February 18, 2007