I'm not in the in-crowd at work--should I care?

May 22, 2006 9:02 PM

so i started this new job a couple of months back. There are a lot of people there around my age who seem really nice, though not so much in my department. My first couple of weeks, I went out for drinks a few times with a bunch of them & had a good time, we seemed to be clicking & I was kind of stoked about working in a somewhat more social/fun environment than I've been accustomed to in previous jobs. What happened?

So the cocktail thing hasn't happened for awhile & I figured people were just busy. But the other night I was out with my friend & like, EVERYONE from work walks into this bar. As it turns out, this is not an uncommon occurance; they hang out all the time, for lunch, for drinks, on the weekend, for dinner, at each others parties; it's some sort of awful highschoolish scenario & I'm definitely being excluded, in an increasingly not-so-subtle way.

I have a pretty active social life & I'm not even sure I'd want to hang out with people from work that much anyway, but this situation is stressing me out! I just kind of feel dissed--the girl who mostly organizes all of this started around the same time as I did & thought we we had a really good relationship, but I'm obviously missing something; I'm seriously the only person under 45 who isn't part of the "scene," & she's increasingly being more obvious about leaving me out. This kind of thing has never been a problem for me before; I'm pretty laid back and easy to get along with, I make an effort to be friendly & interested in people & if anything, being a sober, responsible adult at work has been something I've had to learn. I'm perplexed & bummed; I really like everything else about this job & company, but I'm not sure what to do. I've been trying to just ignore it & focus on work but this is starting to make me a bit insecure & paranoid, & interfering with my working relationships. What's going on? Do I just have cooties? I'm even thinking about looking for something else, but that seems really drastic & lame. Any suggestions for coping?

posted by octavia to Human Relations (42 answers total)

What line of work are you in? What's their ages? Are you married and are they all single? It's certainly a clique, but it's hard to come up with solid answers about what's going on without background information.
posted by chef_boyardee at 9:06 PM on May 22, 2006

It is impossible for males over 30 to form new friendships. That doesn't help you though.
posted by mecran01 at 9:12 PM on May 22, 2006

I had a (part-time) job once where I was pretty much the only person not in "the group" (which for me, translated into actually having to work instead of just sitting around playing cards). And it did upset me, until I remembered: it's just a job. And they're bitches. So I stopped caring- came in, did my job, didn't hardly talk to no one, got my money, and soon enough, I started working somewhere else full-time and I left. Fuck 'em if they're not your crowd. Finding a new job wouldn't be drastic & lame. It seems like nobody ever talks about the importance of liking the people you work with, but it IS important, and being miserable at the place you work will make you miserable ALL the time.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:13 PM on May 22, 2006 [3 favorites]

CS Lewis has some advice.
posted by evariste at 9:14 PM on May 22, 2006 [3 favorites]

Response by poster: I'm in my mid 20s. It's an ad agency & i'm in creative, most of them do more account-type stuff. I'm in a fairly serious relationship, as are most of them. It kind of seems like an issue with this one girl more than anything; I've gotten along really well with some new people, but they've started acting weird too since they started hanging out with her.
posted by octavia at 9:15 PM on May 22, 2006

I'm obviously missing something...

Then you can't tell us your story in a way that will allow us to answer your first question. You might get suggestions for coping; and if someone's brave and lucky, you might get a helpful (albeit random) guess — but probably not. Try being an adult and either asking directly ("Hey, what's up with this?") or simply asserting your way back into those social gatherings.
posted by cribcage at 9:19 PM on May 22, 2006

Maybe it's a departmental thing? In my workplace experience, groups tend to divide up based not only on age but also on status and/or duties. If they all have the same manager, they can hang out at a bar and make snide jokes about him or her.

In one job I had, the women in classified advertising thought the people in editorial hated them. It wasn't true at all; we just didn't know them, and they worked in a separate area of the building. But, to be honest, I think some of my coworkers looked down at them and treated them like they weren't really part of the organization.

Still, it seems like the only possibility is to confront the leaver-outer. Maybe ask her out to lunch or go for a coffee with her.
posted by brina at 9:28 PM on May 22, 2006

I'm in a fairly serious relationship, as are most of them. It kind of seems like an issue with this one girl more than anything

I don't mean to jump to conclusions but did she hit on you by chance and you turned her down, or just let her know you weren't available? I've had to do this at several workplaces and it usually results in a certain level of exclusion from that person's clique for a while. Generally this goes away once people get to know you better. I'm female fwiw, but I imagine it's not much different if you're male.
posted by fshgrl at 9:33 PM on May 22, 2006

I had a similar situation at work and I know how you blah you feel. We had a "queen bee" who was the one who set up any social after work events. She just liked to mess with people and be the center of attention.

You might make an end-run around the "queen bee" and cultivate a friendship with someone slightly lower on the pecking order. Invite them to lunch, drop by their office to visit, suggest a happy hour to them. Or, is there a way to start a B Crowd with others not in the A Crowd? That's what some of us did--our motto was "B Crowd? Be Proud!"
posted by Miastar at 9:34 PM on May 22, 2006 [1 favorite]

Tough question to answer without knowing you.

Can we rule some things out?

Are you skilled in art of conversation-- and take an active interest in what is / was happening in their lives? Chatterboxes wear people down and can become unwelcome. Alternatively being mute is no fun either.

I'll assume you haven't slept with the boss or anyone else in the office--or have given anyone a reason to start a rumor to that effect?

Are you a threat to someone's job?

Did you offend someone?

On preview: I agree w/ cribcage. We're unlikely to guess.

I suggest you make friends with someone in particular and carefully probe the situation. Buy them a drink or two and then just ask.
posted by vaportrail at 9:37 PM on May 22, 2006

It is impossible for males over 30 to form new friendships.

What? I am 30 and making friends. As are some of my older male friends. As does my 60 year old father.

Difficult yes--but not impossible.
posted by vaportrail at 9:40 PM on May 22, 2006

Response by poster: yeah, i think the dept. thing is a factor, i have noticed a bit of an adversiaral relationship in that area. This girl who organizes everything, however, works with me & I interact with her all day, which is kind of psycho since she seems totally cool during work hours. thanks for the suggestions, they're great so far. Mostly I DO just want to find an adult way of dealing with this--it's only my 2nd 'real' job & it's disheartening to find that its so high school. I guess I'm also a little worried that confronting her will make things even weirder. btw i'm a girl ;).
posted by octavia at 9:45 PM on May 22, 2006

It is impossible for males over 30 to form new friendships.

This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

As for the original question, as awkward as it might be, why not just ask the woman who organizes the outings. Don't be defensive or confrontational, but just ask her in a concerned way, you know? Be sincere.

Also: you're a woman, not a girl. So is the woman you're talking about.
posted by jdroth at 10:07 PM on May 22, 2006

I've been in this position before... particularly when I was younger and less experienced with office dynamics. Generally I gave up on trying to be friends out side of work with all but the most stellar coworkers. It's just not worth the risk of accidentally (possibly through no fault of your own) alienating other coworkers... especially where alcohol is involved.

Yeah it is very high school - but this is also your livelihood.

My advice: just ignore it. It sounds like you have friends outside of work to hang with.

While ignoring it make sure you don't slip up at work. The hive can sense weakness. Focus on doing a good job and the right people will notice and want to be friends beyond any petty clicks.
posted by wfrgms at 10:08 PM on May 22, 2006 [2 favorites]

Well if it helps, I'm in a similar situation - newbie to the group, a few good times and then nothing.

I work in the IT department (actually, I am the IT department), and they all work in the "other" department - in other words, they're interacting with each other all day, which means that when it's time to say "man, I could go for a drink", there's someone right there to ask. I'm only around when something's broken.

So that's how I look at it - they've been friends longer than I've been there and I'm not physically around much. It's a matter of right-place/right-time. I would try to be around come quitting time, as mentioned above, to try to weasel your way in.

(If that's something you want. My few experiences with team out taught me that I'd rather get a jump on my commute than hang out with them. But then again, I'm a snobby curmudgeon.)
posted by hoborg at 10:11 PM on May 22, 2006 [1 favorite]

btw i'm a girl ;).

Well you write like a guy! Sorry- I have no idea why I assumed you were male, just did!
posted by fshgrl at 10:12 PM on May 22, 2006

If this is weighing on your mind to the extent that you're thinking of leaving, first make sure that something is going on. So don't wait to be asked out; invite just a couple of co-workers you like for drinks. (Do this far enough in advance that Snottina hasn't gotten there first, and don't make it seem like you're trying to co-opt her role.) If they accept and all goes well, suggest a repeat. If they demur, ask why, and try to keep it light.

In other words: Don't fuck up a great job because of what may be an overactive imagination — or an insecure colleague.
posted by rob511 at 10:14 PM on May 22, 2006

One thing you might want to do is to ask the Queen Bee (QB) if you did anything to offend her. Do this at work, when she is being nice. Get her to admit that nothing is wrong. Of course if she tells you did do something to offend her, apologize.

Tell her you admire her for organizing the social calendar for the group, etc. (butter her up, if you can bear it). Then ask what the social calendar is, and tell her how much you enjoy the events. It will be hard for her to exclude you at that point.

Also IMHO, I suspect that this truly is a high school thing, in that you described a couple of classic high school dynamics. You work closely with QB, people are friendly with you until they hang out with her a bit, and then they become cold. I suspect she is telling people stories of your heinous behavior at work (dunno what you are doing, if anything), but clearly she has a consistent and replenishable source of dirt on you that is causing people to become cold to you once they know her.

Will this effect your entire work experience and performance? Depends. Office politics can be very machivellian, and if she gets in a position to comment on your performance you could be in trouble.
posted by zia at 10:32 PM on May 22, 2006 [1 favorite]

You say you work directly with social organiser girl and she started at the job around the same time as you. This makes me suspicious that it is a competition thing. She views you as direct competition, and is trying to make herself the popular newbie. She has chosen you to be the sacrificial lamb because you are also a newbie, and therefore didn't have an established place in the office pecking order. Entirely childish and high-school, if this is what it is. Are you two at the same level in the organisation?

I would suggest ignoring her and her clique, and enjoying your non-office social life. Don't ask her why you are being excluded (shows weakness, and its playing her game). Your life will be healthier for having a wider circle of friends, and you can concentrate on being good at your job to impress your boss and co-workers, rather than playing office politics.
posted by Joh at 11:42 PM on May 22, 2006 [1 favorite]

You already said it: Two women, both of whom started at the same time. One came out on top. Happens all the time. It's great if you can get along with your co-workers. If not, remember this: You are there to make money, not to make friends.
posted by fixedgear at 1:53 AM on May 23, 2006

Make friends with someone else at work, maybe someone from this same group. If you see one of these people alone at work, not the "QB" (as she's now known), approach him/her and just start chatting. Maybe ask a few people to hang out individually, or with just one other person and see if you click. Don't worry about the group so much, as the individuals.
posted by Packy_1962 at 1:54 AM on May 23, 2006

It is impossible for males over 30 mecran01 to form new friendships. That doesn't help you though.


seriously. stupidest thing i've read on the green for a while.
posted by ab3 at 2:59 AM on May 23, 2006

Are you prettier than her? Is *she* in a serious relationship? The first thing I thought of when I read this was "jealousy". Might not be the case, but is it possible that she has a crush on somebody in the group, who made some offhand comment like "Damn, Octavia is really hot" that she overheard? I'm just throwing out random guesses here though.
posted by antifuse at 3:26 AM on May 23, 2006

Somehow you're competition for QB - probably you're social and attractive - QB uses her social organizational skills to stay in the center of attention.

First off, this is extremely high school. Second, all you have to do is actually make friends with your immediate coworkers and suggest some plans in advance. For example, hey, lets all hit happy hour next week. Not as a large group...as a small 2-4 person thing.

I bet there's lots of gossip here too. Just ignore it. Be a good person and quit stressing what QB thinks.
posted by filmgeek at 3:33 AM on May 23, 2006

seriously. stupidest thing i've read on the green for a while.

Thank god for that, I've just turned 30 and that scared me for like 30 seconds.

Work is Work. As long as you have friends and a social life then who gives a shite. You really shouldn't!
posted by twistedonion at 3:41 AM on May 23, 2006

What is more important to you? Winning this battle with QB or having some friends at work? From what you've posted here, my guess is "friends." But that goal might be tainted by a desire to win, seek-revenge, come-out-on-top, or massage-your-pride. Do some honest soul searching about this.

When I was younger, if someone treated me the way QB is treating you, I wouldn't talk to them honestly about the way they were making me feel. Saying, "you're hurting my feelings" was an admission of weakness, and I didn't want to seem weak. So I just kept my feeling to myself, and nothing ever got solved.

At this point in my life, I know exactly what I would do. I would go straight to QB and confront her -- but not in an angry way. I would, as someone else suggested, say, "Did I offend you somehow?" She'll probably say "No." At which point, I would lay all the cards on the table: "Well, I've noticed that you're inviting everyone out except me. It makes me feel lonely and like a pariah, and I'm wondering what is going on."

Whatever her beef is with you, she's dealing with it in an indirect way, by snubbing you. I would force it out into the open.

Oh, by the way, I'm male and I've made plenty of friends after turning thirty. Heck, I'm 40, and I made a new friend just this year. I did it by putting my cards on the table and saying, "I like you. Would you like to be friends?"
posted by grumblebee at 5:55 AM on May 23, 2006 [1 favorite]

Are you prettier than her? Is *she* in a serious relationship? The first thing I thought of when I read this was "jealousy". .

That's what I thought too. Or if not prettier than her, are you smarter? Better-travelled? Went to a more prestigious university? Is your SO more impressive somehow?

Look, if you folks are all in your first or second jobs, she may actually be a nice, albeit insecure person who doesn't exactly realize that she's acting like the worst sort of high school twit.

Casually ask her when you two are going out for a drink again. Watch how she reacts. If she's got her fake-enthusiasm smile all set, she's gone to the dark side. If not, just hang out with her a bit until she remembers that you're a person who's fun, not The Enemy.

On preview, grumblebee's got a good script to follow too.
posted by desuetude at 6:19 AM on May 23, 2006

evariste, thanks for the link to that great C.S. Lewis essay.

octavia, once you penetrate "the inner ring," remember those other lost souls who are still on the outside (possibly they haven't been hired yet, but will be soon).
posted by grumblebee at 6:26 AM on May 23, 2006

Are you prettier than her? Is *she* in a serious relationship? The first thing I thought of when I read this was "jealousy".

That was my first thought too. God, there's nothing cattier than girls. (Yes, jdroth, some of us call ourselves that, though we may be many decades past girlhood. Leave us alone.)
I think grumblebee is right to suggest you just ask her nicely and non-confrontationally why she never invites you along and gently guilt her about how it makes you feel like shit. Don't worry about showing weakness - you are actually putting her on the spot for her junior high cafeteria behavior.
posted by CunningLinguist at 6:34 AM on May 23, 2006 [1 favorite]

Of course, maybe you are just a lousy drinking buddy, but I discounted that since you seem to have plenty of friends outside the office hothouse.
posted by CunningLinguist at 6:34 AM on May 23, 2006

Organize social events yourself, and be sure to invite her (with sincerity, not to show her up specifically). There's no rule that says only one person can be the social director. Maybe even have a real party or picnic or summer barbecue, and ask everyone to bring friends and S.O.'s. If it goes well, your event will be the talk of the water cooler, and your coworkers will forget they ever snubbed you.

And try not to fret too much. It's just a job. Three or four jobs from now, you won't even remember her name.
posted by SuperSquirrel at 6:48 AM on May 23, 2006

Invite her to lunch, or eat lunch with the other coworkers. If you do it right, it'll be increasingly obvious that they're excluding you and if you make friends within the group you'll have people who want you there. Just make sure that it's obvious that you know they're going out, but don't act sad that you didn't get an invite since individuals will feel awkward and you'll risk creating a situation that drives more of a wedge between you and the coworkers. Act like you've been aware but busy elsewhere, and it's no big deal.
posted by mikeh at 6:57 AM on May 23, 2006

I think SuperSquirrel is on to something. Plan a party at your house. Invite your non-work friends and everyone you work with. When your fellow employees see that you have a vibrant social life outside of the office, they'll loosen up.
posted by fletchmuy at 7:20 AM on May 23, 2006

This girl who organizes everything, however, works with me & I interact with her all day...

Maybe this isn't so much about you personally as it is about this woman having a social life with other people at work without having to interact with her closest co-worker (who happens to be you).

My advice is that you try to put together small outings (you and one or two others) with those co-workers you get along with the best, and try to do it so that it does not compete with whatever this other girl puts together. Take the high-school-ness out of it by not competing and not making people choose. Instead, make it a more "adult" thing of having a drink after work with a few coworkers.

By doing your own thing and not competing or getting upset by this woman's exclusion, you will model a new decentralized way for coworkers to get along.

(And can we just ignore that weird 30-yr-old remark?)
posted by Sprout the Vulgarian at 7:23 AM on May 23, 2006 [1 favorite]

At my old job, I was the de facto social chair. I am a very social guy and usually come up with the plans. Usually I'd be like 'hey lets go play poker after work' and forget to invite someone. Some people apparently resented this, and thought I was running an elite clique too.

In reality, some people were just more comfortable asking me what I was doing after work, and I'd be like 'hey you should come!'. 9 times out of 10, i'd be happy for anyone I worked with to come hang out.

After I figured out a couple people resented me for this, I made a strong effort to always invite them specifically instead of just having an open invitation to everyone.

So maybe the QB isn't trying to be exclusive, she's just not going out of her way to invite you. Try asking her what she's doin after work and see what she suggests. She should try to be a little more thoughtful though, being left out of a clique is damn intimidating.

Oh, and I think its kinda funny how mad everyone got about the 'no friends after 30'. I have a feeling mecran01 wasn't completely serious. Guys have a harder time making friends than girls, but I doubt anyone thinks it's truly impossible.
posted by ZackTM at 8:24 AM on May 23, 2006 [1 favorite]

If you all are acting this immature at work (and maybe it's just because you're in your early 20s and such is the nature of women in their early 20s who work together, I remember plenty of similar "A-list" vs. "B-list" situations at my first job), then calling her out on it, and asking why she's excluding you probably won't work. If anything, it will give her something else to make fun of you for. I go with what the squirrel said, I don't see why you can't organize your own social events or invite a few co-workers out when YOU feel like getting a drink.

And a side note -- as you get older you'll realize that isn't necessarily the best idea to be super social with your co-workers, it can come back to bite you in the ass (for example, people do unprofessional, stupid things while drunk, and do you really want your boss to find out about the extremely unprofessional stupid things you did last night? Because people (even your supposed friends) have nothing better to do at work than gossip about what happened the night before.
posted by echo0720 at 8:28 AM on May 23, 2006

It is impossible for males over 30 to form new friendships.

Or, as Coupland said: "... people lose the ability to make friends somewhere around the time they buy their first expensive piece of furniture. It wasn't a fixed law, but it seemed to be an accurate-enough gauge."
posted by muddylemon at 8:30 AM on May 23, 2006 [1 favorite]

Be happy about it. If you liked these people enough to hang out with them after work, they wouldn't have to pay you to go to work everyday, right?
posted by signal at 9:50 AM on May 23, 2006

Mod note: a few comments removed, take office politics to MeTa, email or leave it in the office
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 11:07 AM on May 23, 2006

I don't have anything specific to you, but I recommend you rent Mean Girls.

In fact I recommend practically anyone rent Mean Girls, it's a terrific movie, but it might take the sting out of your situation with a few laughs on almost exactly this topic.

Hell, make it a double bill with Heathers but promise, no bombing your workplace, OK?
posted by AmbroseChapel at 1:24 PM on May 23, 2006

Here's a different take. Sometimes in situations like this, a group is informally established without anyone making a conscious decision to exclude. It gets awkward asking co-workers if they want to partake in social events, and after a while, if someone gets it in their head that you don't want to be included, then they will feel they're doing you a favor by not even asking you.

A great example of this was illustrated in the last season of Six Feet Under. There are obviously people in the office who want to socialize with Claire, but after the first rejection, they stop asking. When she changes her mind, she (a hot, interesting girl who is usually the center of attention) finds herself in the awkward situation of going out of her way to let her fat dorky male co-worker know that this time, she wants to be invited.

I'm not saying that you turned down an earlier invitation to go out with this group. But maybe you did something that was taken that way. Sometimes there is a whole office culture, and you're either with it or you're not, and if you're not, then you just don't get asked anymore. I worked in an office in which everyone participated in a joint lotto ticket once per week. When they asked me to pony up my dollar and I refused, you could practically hear the social portcullis come crashing down. Maybe you did something similar without realizing it.
posted by bingo at 9:53 PM on May 23, 2006 [1 favorite]

BTW, this type of behavior is called Relational Aggression. So it's not just me being histronic (ok, well, maybe a little.)
posted by lilboo at 1:21 PM on May 25, 2006 [1 favorite]