Life is a Shambles
January 3, 2005 12:15 PM Subscribe
Life is a shambles–Filter. Dunno what I want to do. Anyone who can tell me about how to get into & the experience of lawyering, programming, librarianing, information-architecting, and possibly more doings if I think of them while writing the more inside, will be rewarded with a steaming pile of gratitude. More than you could realistically pretend to care about is inside.
So, as I said, I don't know what I want to do, career-wise, and so I turn to you, citizens of Ask. In September or thereabouts I posted a question here regarding grad school–like experiences, and based on the responses I have applied to graduate school in philosophy and law schools. I have even been admitted to two law schools already–good ones, too. However, I am all overcome shaking as with an ague & uncertainty. Law school and grad schools are both heavy time investments, with no guarantee of a reward for the latter, and a JD/PhD is even heavier time-wise. My motivation for applying to law school was my thinking that, JD in hand, I could work for EFF or the ACLU or some such like-minded organization dedicated to the pretense that the nation is salvageable. I am not certain how much I would actually like the practice of law—the stereotypical hours especially don't appeal to me, as I likes me some free time—I just thought it had potential to be a truly worthwhile pursuit.
So I think to myself: if not that, what? I had a summer job programming which I enjoyed a lot, but I have a rather paltry selection of languages in which I'm competent (Python and shell, very minor C & C++); this hasn't sufficed so far to find employment. I don't know what kinds of training there might be for learning more with an eye to employment--is a master's program appropriate here? My fear is that I wouldn't know enough to get into a decent program in the first place.
As for information architecture & librarianship, I basically know very little about them, except that the librarians here seem a satisfied bunch, and when IA stuff gets discussed on the front page, or in the taxonomical issues that have arisen when talking about AskMe, or when I (rather occasionally) read v-2.org, it all seems very stimulating. Plus I like design. I know more or less how one becomes a librarian (though I don't know from the quality of the various places one can get a degree), but I have no clue how you get on the IA boat. I think my interest in the latter might be more conceptual/academic than practical, though, and "interest in design" may actually cash out as "interest in criticizing designs".
So, are there intellectually stimulating lawyering jobs that allow one to work sane hours? Am I screwed on the CS angle without further formal education, & where to get it? Any information on the study and practice of librarianship, information science, and the like would also be appreciated (you see, I don't even have a sufficient conceptual basis to frame the request in a detailed manner).
Probably relevant: I'm 22, currently working as a legal assistant. In a perfect world I would get paid to listen to music, read, and build a coffee table.
So, as I said, I don't know what I want to do, career-wise, and so I turn to you, citizens of Ask. In September or thereabouts I posted a question here regarding grad school–like experiences, and based on the responses I have applied to graduate school in philosophy and law schools. I have even been admitted to two law schools already–good ones, too. However, I am all overcome shaking as with an ague & uncertainty. Law school and grad schools are both heavy time investments, with no guarantee of a reward for the latter, and a JD/PhD is even heavier time-wise. My motivation for applying to law school was my thinking that, JD in hand, I could work for EFF or the ACLU or some such like-minded organization dedicated to the pretense that the nation is salvageable. I am not certain how much I would actually like the practice of law—the stereotypical hours especially don't appeal to me, as I likes me some free time—I just thought it had potential to be a truly worthwhile pursuit.
So I think to myself: if not that, what? I had a summer job programming which I enjoyed a lot, but I have a rather paltry selection of languages in which I'm competent (Python and shell, very minor C & C++); this hasn't sufficed so far to find employment. I don't know what kinds of training there might be for learning more with an eye to employment--is a master's program appropriate here? My fear is that I wouldn't know enough to get into a decent program in the first place.
As for information architecture & librarianship, I basically know very little about them, except that the librarians here seem a satisfied bunch, and when IA stuff gets discussed on the front page, or in the taxonomical issues that have arisen when talking about AskMe, or when I (rather occasionally) read v-2.org, it all seems very stimulating. Plus I like design. I know more or less how one becomes a librarian (though I don't know from the quality of the various places one can get a degree), but I have no clue how you get on the IA boat. I think my interest in the latter might be more conceptual/academic than practical, though, and "interest in design" may actually cash out as "interest in criticizing designs".
So, are there intellectually stimulating lawyering jobs that allow one to work sane hours? Am I screwed on the CS angle without further formal education, & where to get it? Any information on the study and practice of librarianship, information science, and the like would also be appreciated (you see, I don't even have a sufficient conceptual basis to frame the request in a detailed manner).
Probably relevant: I'm 22, currently working as a legal assistant. In a perfect world I would get paid to listen to music, read, and build a coffee table.
this is most imortant answer you will receive. it is the only true answer. all other answers will be corrupted by the desires of others to shape you into a surrogate for their own failed pusuits. listen carefully:
this is a perfect world.
listen to music.
read.
build a coffee table.
what money you may need will flow by.
posted by quonsar at 12:33 PM on January 3, 2005 [6 favorites]
this is a perfect world.
listen to music.
read.
build a coffee table.
what money you may need will flow by.
posted by quonsar at 12:33 PM on January 3, 2005 [6 favorites]
catch me on IM if you want to chat librarianing [home: iamthebestartist work: rutlandfree] but I am currently living with a law student and I have these words of advice based on our household which, as you may guess, is atypical. In order to love the punishing pace that is law school, you have to sort of really enjoy politics, legal wonkery, procedural frippery, and the minutia of the constitution and the US legal system. You don't have to love any of these things, but it makes going through law school much much easier. I know plenty of people with law degrees who don't work killer hours. They are also -- surprise surprise -- not rich. If you get a degree in a profession that gives you the option of billing $200/hour, you almost always have the option of working less, just not a lot of people do it. I know people who work 9-5 in rural law offices, who work in legal clinics, who do ACLU/EFF type work, and who are just in private practive working very few hours.
Librarians, on the other hand, have solid 9-5 jobs [everyplace but academia which I am in no way qualified to say anything about except that they always seem smarter to me than public librarians, of which I am one] and the work is "clean work" which is to say very little heavy lifting our outdoor work. You can work with people in a reference settling, or don't see them at all in a cataloging setting. Many people are combination librarians, some time working with people, some time not.
With the background you have, you might be interested in law librarianship which is law school + library school and at the end of it you get a 9-5 job in a law firm or law school in the law library. It's not slacker work at all, there are a lot of incredibly smart people doing this, so I'm not sure if it fits in with your perfect-world aesthetic but in a small firm the work wouldn't be that killer and you'd get paid more along the line of real money than you would as a public librarian most places. Plus, you can probably get them to let you design the web site [as you can in very small libraries] which might satisfy your IA bug.
This is just my one person opinion, but library jobs are generally much less high stress than lawyerly jobs, but neither one is really what you seem to be looking for. I know precious few librarians who get to read at all on the job. On ther other hand, if you work in a teeny library [easy to do in rural location, almost impossible to do elsewhere] you may be able to write your own job description and maybe build some furniture while you're there.
quonsar is also correct, however.
posted by jessamyn at 12:34 PM on January 3, 2005
Librarians, on the other hand, have solid 9-5 jobs [everyplace but academia which I am in no way qualified to say anything about except that they always seem smarter to me than public librarians, of which I am one] and the work is "clean work" which is to say very little heavy lifting our outdoor work. You can work with people in a reference settling, or don't see them at all in a cataloging setting. Many people are combination librarians, some time working with people, some time not.
With the background you have, you might be interested in law librarianship which is law school + library school and at the end of it you get a 9-5 job in a law firm or law school in the law library. It's not slacker work at all, there are a lot of incredibly smart people doing this, so I'm not sure if it fits in with your perfect-world aesthetic but in a small firm the work wouldn't be that killer and you'd get paid more along the line of real money than you would as a public librarian most places. Plus, you can probably get them to let you design the web site [as you can in very small libraries] which might satisfy your IA bug.
This is just my one person opinion, but library jobs are generally much less high stress than lawyerly jobs, but neither one is really what you seem to be looking for. I know precious few librarians who get to read at all on the job. On ther other hand, if you work in a teeny library [easy to do in rural location, almost impossible to do elsewhere] you may be able to write your own job description and maybe build some furniture while you're there.
quonsar is also correct, however.
posted by jessamyn at 12:34 PM on January 3, 2005
I doubt you'd get into honours comp sci, let alone masters with what you list. That's not to say you can't get a job, but comp sci is more than just programming - it's the theory, maths and structure behind it which is much more complicated , so unless you want to start from near the bottom, I'd not go in this direction. That said - a niche interest in following certain programming fields can lead to enjoyable employment without the piece of paper.
Lawyering, from what my family in the field tells me, isn't all work and no play - it's just when you work you do so for long hours, making enough money to have a hell of a time when you aren't in the office. If you want to sacrifice the time it takes to get the qualification and then work for the EFF or ACLU, then I, sir, would take my hat off to you.
posted by Sparx at 12:34 PM on January 3, 2005
Lawyering, from what my family in the field tells me, isn't all work and no play - it's just when you work you do so for long hours, making enough money to have a hell of a time when you aren't in the office. If you want to sacrifice the time it takes to get the qualification and then work for the EFF or ACLU, then I, sir, would take my hat off to you.
posted by Sparx at 12:34 PM on January 3, 2005
All I can tell you is what my current plan is, since we seem to have similar backgrounds (I'm 23 with a litigation support/theatre/web background):
Finish undergrad with self-created degree in English (for the writing ability), Art (for the design work), Computer Science (for the programming part), and Cognitive Science/Psychology (for the human part). Apply to masters/PhD programs for a degree in Human/Computer Interation. Complete degree. Get job like this one.
Hope that helps....if you have any questions about how I came up with this/other options that I considered/whatever, feel free to email.
posted by amandaudoff at 12:38 PM on January 3, 2005
Finish undergrad with self-created degree in English (for the writing ability), Art (for the design work), Computer Science (for the programming part), and Cognitive Science/Psychology (for the human part). Apply to masters/PhD programs for a degree in Human/Computer Interation. Complete degree. Get job like this one.
Hope that helps....if you have any questions about how I came up with this/other options that I considered/whatever, feel free to email.
posted by amandaudoff at 12:38 PM on January 3, 2005
Do not go to law school unless you are willing to accept the risk that you will become a lawyer. You say that your motivation in going to law school is to "work for EFF or the ACLU or some such like-minded organization dedicated to the pretense that the nation is salvageable." Good, but bear in mind that public service jobs (especially with the ACLU and EFF) are quite competitive, and landing one requires a stellar resume and usually a few connections. If you can't get one of these jobs, and you find yourself with close to a hundred thousand dollars in law school debt, are you comfortable with the prospect of, say, doing bank regulatory work 60 hours a week for 3-4 years?
posted by profwhat at 12:53 PM on January 3, 2005
posted by profwhat at 12:53 PM on January 3, 2005
Response by poster: Sparx, I have taken some CS classes (Compilers, Discrete Math, Algorithms, Programming Languages, and two intro courses that were a waste of time) and did well, which is both why I think I'd like it and why I know I don't have what it takes as it stands. But apparently the U of C's compsci MS is designed for people in my situation (Bonus: stay in chicago. Caveat: dunno if it's so hot).
on preview: profwhat, is that just for big name public service jobs, or public service tout court? If the latter I'm surprised (& pleased).
posted by kenko at 12:58 PM on January 3, 2005
on preview: profwhat, is that just for big name public service jobs, or public service tout court? If the latter I'm surprised (& pleased).
posted by kenko at 12:58 PM on January 3, 2005
Response by poster: oh also: I know precious few librarians who get to read at all on the job
I don't really maintain any illusions that I will be able to pursue leisure activities while at work—I suppose I shouldn't have included that last bit.
posted by kenko at 1:01 PM on January 3, 2005
I don't really maintain any illusions that I will be able to pursue leisure activities while at work—I suppose I shouldn't have included that last bit.
posted by kenko at 1:01 PM on January 3, 2005
On the law librarianship tip, Pratt has a dual JD/MLS degree program with Brooklyn Law School. As a bonus, you could live in the greatest place ever while deciding what to do.
posted by dame at 1:01 PM on January 3, 2005
posted by dame at 1:01 PM on January 3, 2005
I'm 24 with a journalism/business/programming/web background. I just started my own software services company. What follows is general advice that I give to all young people who ask me this question.
Figure out what you want to do. If you don't have one already, get an undergrad degree that's related to but not necessarily specific to that field, and that fascinates you. (i.e. I got a business degree in supply chain and logistics management ... will I ever use much of the stuff that I learned in it? Not unless I get into a purchasing role. Will I use the general systems-dealing-with-physical-stuff knowledge that I gained? You bet your ass I will.)
Then, when you're done, go find a corporate job that you can work for a year. Mine didn't last that long, but it was a good intro. This is especially good if you don't have any previous work experience. You'll learn what you like and what you hate about corporate environments. From there, your options are open. You can continue in school and get a graduate degree in something else that will take you further in your chosen field, or focus you towards another field. You can continue to maintain the income that you have now while you retrain yourself.
Re: programming skills: I, and most of the people I work with, are self-taught. This is a measure of how good of a programmer you can or will be. If you have managed to self-teach yourself some Python, C, and C++, self-teach yourself more. Get involved with open-source projects at the fringes, trying to contribute useful patches and whatnot. Once you've got yourself up to where you're working as a part of projects instead of on the fringe of projects, then you should start applying for jobs. C is the most basic language you can learn and good knowledge of C will help you learn Java, PHP, C++, and Perl ... the most common languages used today.
posted by SpecialK at 1:05 PM on January 3, 2005
Figure out what you want to do. If you don't have one already, get an undergrad degree that's related to but not necessarily specific to that field, and that fascinates you. (i.e. I got a business degree in supply chain and logistics management ... will I ever use much of the stuff that I learned in it? Not unless I get into a purchasing role. Will I use the general systems-dealing-with-physical-stuff knowledge that I gained? You bet your ass I will.)
Then, when you're done, go find a corporate job that you can work for a year. Mine didn't last that long, but it was a good intro. This is especially good if you don't have any previous work experience. You'll learn what you like and what you hate about corporate environments. From there, your options are open. You can continue in school and get a graduate degree in something else that will take you further in your chosen field, or focus you towards another field. You can continue to maintain the income that you have now while you retrain yourself.
Re: programming skills: I, and most of the people I work with, are self-taught. This is a measure of how good of a programmer you can or will be. If you have managed to self-teach yourself some Python, C, and C++, self-teach yourself more. Get involved with open-source projects at the fringes, trying to contribute useful patches and whatnot. Once you've got yourself up to where you're working as a part of projects instead of on the fringe of projects, then you should start applying for jobs. C is the most basic language you can learn and good knowledge of C will help you learn Java, PHP, C++, and Perl ... the most common languages used today.
posted by SpecialK at 1:05 PM on January 3, 2005
Regarding librarianing: what Jessamyn said. There's a wide range of tasks in the field, but you're not going to be able to pay your student loans. It's one of those trade-offs you hear so much about.
Regarding library schools: every few years, US News gets frisky and includes them with the other grad schools in their rankings. In my experience, these rankings and the general perceptions of particular programs within the field are pretty closely aligned. A few well-regarded schools (off the top of my head):
posted by willpie at 1:11 PM on January 3, 2005
Regarding library schools: every few years, US News gets frisky and includes them with the other grad schools in their rankings. In my experience, these rankings and the general perceptions of particular programs within the field are pretty closely aligned. A few well-regarded schools (off the top of my head):
- Rutgers
- Drexel
- Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (widely regarded as the best--especially by the people who got their degrees there)
- Indiana
- Texas at Austin (my alma mater; generally regarded as the best for Archives and Preservation/Conservation)
- Michigan
- North Carolina at Chapel Hill
posted by willpie at 1:11 PM on January 3, 2005
If you decide to do the CS thing, don't just learn what you're taught in school. Study a lot of different things on your own. Look through a newspaper. Learn the kinds of skills that employers are asking for, and that look interesting to you.
posted by unreason at 1:15 PM on January 3, 2005
posted by unreason at 1:15 PM on January 3, 2005
At 22 I think you have room to explore options without feeling like you have to choose Right Now. And quonsar's advice is worth taking seriously. You only live once, so make sure you're choosing a path because it's actually what you want, and not because you feel like you 'ought' to.
If your perfect world includes getting paid a lot, you're outa luck, but if you just need to be able to get by reasonably, then there's no reason not to concentrate on coffee tables or books for a little while instead of going into debt for a degree you're not sure you want. Being stuck in a job you hate is a common cause of unhappiness, so really think about what you want to spend your life doing. It isn't just a way to pay the rent; it's what will occupy a huge portion of your time on earth.
posted by mdn at 1:15 PM on January 3, 2005
If your perfect world includes getting paid a lot, you're outa luck, but if you just need to be able to get by reasonably, then there's no reason not to concentrate on coffee tables or books for a little while instead of going into debt for a degree you're not sure you want. Being stuck in a job you hate is a common cause of unhappiness, so really think about what you want to spend your life doing. It isn't just a way to pay the rent; it's what will occupy a huge portion of your time on earth.
posted by mdn at 1:15 PM on January 3, 2005
I used to be a programmer, and am currently in law school. My blog covers my experiences in the last 9 months of employment and first 4 months of law school, and can be found via my profile if it would interest you to read about it.
If you want to make it in the tech world, I wouldn't worry about getting any more college-level traning. If you have the time and money, maybe take a one-week course at a professional education place on a topic like SQL or Development life-cycles. As SpecialK said, just start applying for low-level jobs and work your way up the ladder.
As for lawyering, I think the awful hours you hear that lawyers keep more stereotypically apply to corporate jobs (not that public-interest attorneys don't work a lot as well). I too have dreams of working for the EFF or ACLU, however these are well-known organizations. There are plenty of other, smaller organizations working to salvage different parts of the nation that don't get the same amount of press (or flood of job applications) that the EFF/ACLU do.
posted by falconred at 1:22 PM on January 3, 2005
If you want to make it in the tech world, I wouldn't worry about getting any more college-level traning. If you have the time and money, maybe take a one-week course at a professional education place on a topic like SQL or Development life-cycles. As SpecialK said, just start applying for low-level jobs and work your way up the ladder.
As for lawyering, I think the awful hours you hear that lawyers keep more stereotypically apply to corporate jobs (not that public-interest attorneys don't work a lot as well). I too have dreams of working for the EFF or ACLU, however these are well-known organizations. There are plenty of other, smaller organizations working to salvage different parts of the nation that don't get the same amount of press (or flood of job applications) that the EFF/ACLU do.
posted by falconred at 1:22 PM on January 3, 2005
I just want to comment to say that, my god, quonsar is right for once. except for the coffee table thing.
posted by norm at 1:24 PM on January 3, 2005
posted by norm at 1:24 PM on January 3, 2005
You've gotten some really good advice here.
Just to reiterate: DO NOT go to law school unless you really want to be a lawyer. It is extremely expensive. What no one has mentioned is that even if you land a legal services position, you are probably not going to make enough money to pay your student loans. I was offered a position at the Legal Aid Society of NY back in '99 and turned it down because it only paid $29k per year. Who the hell can live on that AND pay their student loans. So what happens is those of us who are not fortunate enough to have someone else pay for our educations, we have to go out and take crappy corporate are large law firm jobs so that we can make enough money to payback our student loans? Is that what you want? Well, is it?
I don't want to see you here on AskMe five years from now with this:
"Can anyone tell me how I can avoid paying back the $90K that I owe in student loans? I keep telling the debt collectors that law school was a mistake and I have no intention of using the education, but they say that I have to pay back the money anyway. Is that true? How do I get out of it? I guess I should have listened to you guys back in '05"
To which we'll all pile on and say "uh huh!"
LISTEN TO ME: You have one life! Get it? One f*cking life. Do not waste it doing something that will not make you happy. You want to make coffee tables? Do it. Do you have any furniture making skills? Yes? Great. No? Take some classes. Try to get into a design program. Be the best goddamned coffee table making person that you can. At least until you get bored and move onto something else.
posted by Juicylicious at 1:31 PM on January 3, 2005 [1 favorite]
Just to reiterate: DO NOT go to law school unless you really want to be a lawyer. It is extremely expensive. What no one has mentioned is that even if you land a legal services position, you are probably not going to make enough money to pay your student loans. I was offered a position at the Legal Aid Society of NY back in '99 and turned it down because it only paid $29k per year. Who the hell can live on that AND pay their student loans. So what happens is those of us who are not fortunate enough to have someone else pay for our educations, we have to go out and take crappy corporate are large law firm jobs so that we can make enough money to payback our student loans? Is that what you want? Well, is it?
I don't want to see you here on AskMe five years from now with this:
"Can anyone tell me how I can avoid paying back the $90K that I owe in student loans? I keep telling the debt collectors that law school was a mistake and I have no intention of using the education, but they say that I have to pay back the money anyway. Is that true? How do I get out of it? I guess I should have listened to you guys back in '05"
To which we'll all pile on and say "uh huh!"
LISTEN TO ME: You have one life! Get it? One f*cking life. Do not waste it doing something that will not make you happy. You want to make coffee tables? Do it. Do you have any furniture making skills? Yes? Great. No? Take some classes. Try to get into a design program. Be the best goddamned coffee table making person that you can. At least until you get bored and move onto something else.
posted by Juicylicious at 1:31 PM on January 3, 2005 [1 favorite]
My advice is probably not novel regarding law. First, there are interesting jobs; and jobs that pay very well; the overlapping Venn Diagram region is fairly small. Second, law is a lot more like accounting ("accounting with words," I call it), and attracts--and fails to repel fairly fairly unwarm, insensitive types. Third, it's a myth that law is an intellectual endeavor. You don'r need to be intellectual to be an attorney; just not too dumb, and know how to study. Also, kissing ass is as valuable as in any other field. Feel free to contact me for more not-very-positive advice.
posted by ParisParamus at 1:34 PM on January 3, 2005 [1 favorite]
posted by ParisParamus at 1:34 PM on January 3, 2005 [1 favorite]
The head research librarian at my law school drives a BMW Z3, if that helps any.
If you're interested in public interest law (such as EFF or ACLU), Harvard Law publishes a job search guide called, naturally, Public Interest Job Search Guide. You might be able to get it through them directly. As others have said, it's satisfying as long as you're not one to stress out about not being able to both own a home and pay back loans.
posted by schoolgirl report at 1:53 PM on January 3, 2005
If you're interested in public interest law (such as EFF or ACLU), Harvard Law publishes a job search guide called, naturally, Public Interest Job Search Guide. You might be able to get it through them directly. As others have said, it's satisfying as long as you're not one to stress out about not being able to both own a home and pay back loans.
posted by schoolgirl report at 1:53 PM on January 3, 2005
The best advice I ever got was at a temp job. I was temping, during college summer break, in the office of a manufacturing plant. An older employee in the office who was well paid and has been working there for years asked me what I wanted to do.
I replied something to the effect that I studied this, but I was also interested in this, but in reality I kind of expected to just fall into something like a lot of people.
He got an angry look in his eyes and told me that he had been in my position once and fell into the job that he was doing, and even though he was a "success" by most standards, he regrets, more than anything, not following his dreams. He told me to go and do whatever I wanted to do, to enjoy living, and never to just fall into something that I would dread for 40 years. Enjoy being young now, be wary of debt and committment, and do whatever you need to free yourself from the unpleasant obligations that make up our modern society's idea of "living."
posted by crazy finger at 1:58 PM on January 3, 2005
I replied something to the effect that I studied this, but I was also interested in this, but in reality I kind of expected to just fall into something like a lot of people.
He got an angry look in his eyes and told me that he had been in my position once and fell into the job that he was doing, and even though he was a "success" by most standards, he regrets, more than anything, not following his dreams. He told me to go and do whatever I wanted to do, to enjoy living, and never to just fall into something that I would dread for 40 years. Enjoy being young now, be wary of debt and committment, and do whatever you need to free yourself from the unpleasant obligations that make up our modern society's idea of "living."
posted by crazy finger at 1:58 PM on January 3, 2005
Quonsar nailed it.
Here are some coffee table plans.
posted by LarryC at 2:04 PM on January 3, 2005 [1 favorite]
Here are some coffee table plans.
posted by LarryC at 2:04 PM on January 3, 2005 [1 favorite]
I just wanted to add a general bit of career advice. I think it's common to believe that there are two inflection points in your life--picking a college and choosing a career when you graduate-- and if you make the wrong decision you are screwed forever.
In practice, life turns out to be a virtually infinite series of inflection points. Put more concretely, many of the people I know who have interesting and satisfying jobs took a while to figure out what they wanted to do in life. Many people don't figure it out until their mid 30's or later. And many people end up discovering that there is no one single perfect job for them; they make interesting and satisfying careers out of a variety of occupations. I know one person who got a Masters degree in math from MIT and was on his way to getting a PhD when he decided to switch to law school; he ended up having a long and successful law career. He recently retired, and, at age 70, is in the process of figuring out the NEXT thing he wants to do.
I guess what I'm saying is that, while it's a superb idea to consider the long-term consequences of your current career plans, you shouldn't feel like there is a single right answer out there for your next step, and you're screwed if you don't figure out what it is. Your life may be in much less of a shambles than you think.
posted by yankeefog at 2:04 PM on January 3, 2005
In practice, life turns out to be a virtually infinite series of inflection points. Put more concretely, many of the people I know who have interesting and satisfying jobs took a while to figure out what they wanted to do in life. Many people don't figure it out until their mid 30's or later. And many people end up discovering that there is no one single perfect job for them; they make interesting and satisfying careers out of a variety of occupations. I know one person who got a Masters degree in math from MIT and was on his way to getting a PhD when he decided to switch to law school; he ended up having a long and successful law career. He recently retired, and, at age 70, is in the process of figuring out the NEXT thing he wants to do.
I guess what I'm saying is that, while it's a superb idea to consider the long-term consequences of your current career plans, you shouldn't feel like there is a single right answer out there for your next step, and you're screwed if you don't figure out what it is. Your life may be in much less of a shambles than you think.
posted by yankeefog at 2:04 PM on January 3, 2005
I dropped out of library school (I couldn't take paying good money for useless assignments of busy work), so I'm not the right person to ask about that.
I do work as library computer staff for a public library consortium. To be a system librarian, you do need an MLS. You don't to be a tech. Pay, as always in the public library world, isn't very good. However, I wouldn't go back to the corporate world. The people I work with are generally polite, there are minimal work politics, I'm respected for my knowledge and folks have a sense of humour.
It isn't easier than working in the corporate world. I've been a page, a clerk, a librarian and a library geek, and at each of those jobs, I worked a lot harder than I did in the corporate world. But I go home at the end of the day, knowing I helped people and didn't spend my time making more money for some rich guy.
If you can hack living on little money (and never underestimate the stress involved), working in the public library world can be incredibly rewarding.
posted by QIbHom at 2:07 PM on January 3, 2005
I do work as library computer staff for a public library consortium. To be a system librarian, you do need an MLS. You don't to be a tech. Pay, as always in the public library world, isn't very good. However, I wouldn't go back to the corporate world. The people I work with are generally polite, there are minimal work politics, I'm respected for my knowledge and folks have a sense of humour.
It isn't easier than working in the corporate world. I've been a page, a clerk, a librarian and a library geek, and at each of those jobs, I worked a lot harder than I did in the corporate world. But I go home at the end of the day, knowing I helped people and didn't spend my time making more money for some rich guy.
If you can hack living on little money (and never underestimate the stress involved), working in the public library world can be incredibly rewarding.
posted by QIbHom at 2:07 PM on January 3, 2005
Most of what I have to say has already been covered by the other MeFi attorneys, but just to add on, I am currently finishing up my last year in law school and have decided to go the public interest route and I have to say, it's pretty brutal getting those jobs full time.
This part of the process has been pretty demoralizing, but the actual law school process has allowed me to refine my understanding of the work I want to do and to get some real hands on experience doing it. For example, I spent my first summer in New Delhi working for a small human rights ngo (my interest is intl. human rights) on a grant given by the school. Last year I got to go to Rwanda during the 10th anniversary of the genocide and this past year I got to help out on a case with a Guantanamo detainee and worked with my clinic in representing Colombian villagers suing an Oil Company for destroying their village.
Public interest law, from what I have seen, can be an amazingly fulfilling, satisfying life if - and this is the crux of it - you can find one of the few positions that pay you to do it, and you can afford to live with the meager sums you are paid. The vast majority of my classmates are going to go work for big law firms for large sums of money but I get the feeling that the vast majority of them are dreading the actual work. I worked at a corporate law firm this past summer and the experience made me certain that it wasn't for me. That said, it's tough to turn down a six figure salary when you have six figure debt.
In sum: law school can be amazing, and I get the feeling so can being a full time lawyer fighting for what you believe in. But, it's a long, hard road to get there, and there's a lot of money riding on the decision, so if you are at all unsure, I'd hold off.
posted by buddha9090 at 2:31 PM on January 3, 2005
This part of the process has been pretty demoralizing, but the actual law school process has allowed me to refine my understanding of the work I want to do and to get some real hands on experience doing it. For example, I spent my first summer in New Delhi working for a small human rights ngo (my interest is intl. human rights) on a grant given by the school. Last year I got to go to Rwanda during the 10th anniversary of the genocide and this past year I got to help out on a case with a Guantanamo detainee and worked with my clinic in representing Colombian villagers suing an Oil Company for destroying their village.
Public interest law, from what I have seen, can be an amazingly fulfilling, satisfying life if - and this is the crux of it - you can find one of the few positions that pay you to do it, and you can afford to live with the meager sums you are paid. The vast majority of my classmates are going to go work for big law firms for large sums of money but I get the feeling that the vast majority of them are dreading the actual work. I worked at a corporate law firm this past summer and the experience made me certain that it wasn't for me. That said, it's tough to turn down a six figure salary when you have six figure debt.
In sum: law school can be amazing, and I get the feeling so can being a full time lawyer fighting for what you believe in. But, it's a long, hard road to get there, and there's a lot of money riding on the decision, so if you are at all unsure, I'd hold off.
posted by buddha9090 at 2:31 PM on January 3, 2005
If you are interested in librarianship, why not try getting a job at a local academic library, just to see if it's something you like? Data entry level jobs give you a good look at what is usually a small department, and don't require any kind of background or degree at many places. I worked for the curator for Africana Studies (his job was a PhD level position, by the way) and saw the work of curating as having a lot to do with reading, a deep understanding of world history and events, organizational skills, business skills with vendors around the world, etc. Didn't turn out to be what was right for me, but it certainly wasn't wasted time.
posted by availablelight at 2:33 PM on January 3, 2005
posted by availablelight at 2:33 PM on January 3, 2005
A little more on law librarianship. It struck me as odd when my legal research prof told my class that she hasn't met a law librarian who doesn't love their job, but it's true as far as I can tell.
I do not have a JD, but do have an MLS. Most academic law libraries require both degrees, but law firm libraries definitely do not. Law firm libraries are fantastic places to work- the pay is great, there's always something different and new to deal with, and you'll get tons of experience in different library functions (I'm the entire tech services department and half the reference department). My boss actually makes more money than the first year associates, and we certainly don't put in the crazy hours. If you enjoy what you're doing as a legal assistant, it would be worth your while to consider getting the MLS; the work you'd get in this kind of library without the degree will not be as fun, you'll be checking in looseleaf filings and photocopying articles.
posted by banjo_and_the_pork at 3:22 PM on January 3, 2005
I do not have a JD, but do have an MLS. Most academic law libraries require both degrees, but law firm libraries definitely do not. Law firm libraries are fantastic places to work- the pay is great, there's always something different and new to deal with, and you'll get tons of experience in different library functions (I'm the entire tech services department and half the reference department). My boss actually makes more money than the first year associates, and we certainly don't put in the crazy hours. If you enjoy what you're doing as a legal assistant, it would be worth your while to consider getting the MLS; the work you'd get in this kind of library without the degree will not be as fun, you'll be checking in looseleaf filings and photocopying articles.
posted by banjo_and_the_pork at 3:22 PM on January 3, 2005
LISTEN TO ME: You have one life! Get it? One f*cking life. Do not waste it doing something that will not make you happy.
Juicylicious: I'm so printing that out, as I do need to remind myself that from time to time.
posted by RikiTikiTavi at 5:53 PM on January 3, 2005 [1 favorite]
Juicylicious: I'm so printing that out, as I do need to remind myself that from time to time.
posted by RikiTikiTavi at 5:53 PM on January 3, 2005 [1 favorite]
Yes, what quonsar said. You're 22. You probably haven't spent a lot of time traveling, exploring, or supporting yourself (apologies if I've made too many presumptions!). Spend two years working in jobs you love, regardless of how much they pay. A friend wanted to learn glassblowing so got a job tending shop for him two days a week in exchange for lessons. Get a job at a university in order to take free classes. Be a substitute teacher. Push yourself to do things you're curious about & wouldn't do with $100k of lawschool debt. That way, when/if you DO decide on law school, you'll have had lots of experiences & be sure of your future career path (because major debt really puts a cramp in diverging from that path).
Or, get a job in a library... Being a public librarian is a service job, and in libraries I've dealt with nutcases threatening violence, thieves stealing from coworkers, the stinkiest people ever, men with guns browsing the stacks [not using them; just tucked in their waistband--police were called], etc. I've also had a million fantastic interactions, met wonderful patrons, and had many experiences in between. But don't be fooled by movie portrayals: being a public librarian is a poorly paying job that requires a love/passion for helping people and community--books often come second. Many people flourish under that; just as many become embittered.
My meandering point is: just after college, almost everyone (who hasn't had a driving passion to guide them!) starts to panic at the 'wide openness' of the world in front of them. Jumping into something in the midst of that panic is the wrong thing to do, because you'll be deciding a major future committment based primarily on fear of the unknown.
posted by soviet sleepover at 6:31 PM on January 3, 2005
Or, get a job in a library... Being a public librarian is a service job, and in libraries I've dealt with nutcases threatening violence, thieves stealing from coworkers, the stinkiest people ever, men with guns browsing the stacks [not using them; just tucked in their waistband--police were called], etc. I've also had a million fantastic interactions, met wonderful patrons, and had many experiences in between. But don't be fooled by movie portrayals: being a public librarian is a poorly paying job that requires a love/passion for helping people and community--books often come second. Many people flourish under that; just as many become embittered.
My meandering point is: just after college, almost everyone (who hasn't had a driving passion to guide them!) starts to panic at the 'wide openness' of the world in front of them. Jumping into something in the midst of that panic is the wrong thing to do, because you'll be deciding a major future committment based primarily on fear of the unknown.
posted by soviet sleepover at 6:31 PM on January 3, 2005
quonsar is, once again, correct.
You will be most successful at whatever it is you love so much that you don't care how successful you are at it.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 8:24 PM on January 3, 2005
You will be most successful at whatever it is you love so much that you don't care how successful you are at it.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 8:24 PM on January 3, 2005
this is most imortant answer you will receive...
Probably the wisest thing I've read on Metafilter. Thanks q.
posted by marxchivist at 9:45 PM on January 3, 2005
Probably the wisest thing I've read on Metafilter. Thanks q.
posted by marxchivist at 9:45 PM on January 3, 2005
I was good at a lot of things, but once I found out what kind of a day doctors have, I couldn't seriously imagine myself doing something else. I went to a med school where the surgeons pretty well ruled the hospital - it was nationally known for the high quality of the surgeons and the inferiority of the medical specialists.
But I didn't remind myself of the happy, successful surgeons I met. I reminded myself of the neurologists. Rather late I switched to become a neurologist, because neurology seemed to be what made people like me happy.
I couldn't imagine not being a neurologist now. I really enjoy it. I get a kick out of it every day.
Pick something about which you're going to say that about, ten or twelve years from now, man. That should be your only criterion.
By the way, music, books and coffee tables are fine, but this world is nothing like perfect yet.
posted by ikkyu2 at 10:36 PM on January 3, 2005 [2 favorites]
But I didn't remind myself of the happy, successful surgeons I met. I reminded myself of the neurologists. Rather late I switched to become a neurologist, because neurology seemed to be what made people like me happy.
I couldn't imagine not being a neurologist now. I really enjoy it. I get a kick out of it every day.
Pick something about which you're going to say that about, ten or twelve years from now, man. That should be your only criterion.
By the way, music, books and coffee tables are fine, but this world is nothing like perfect yet.
posted by ikkyu2 at 10:36 PM on January 3, 2005 [2 favorites]
As for information architecture: The field is simply too new for any formal career or training paths to have sprung up yet. There are a few graduate programs in IA out there, but they have only started turning out graduates in the last few months and their worth remains largely unproven.
The vast, vast majority of practicing information architects are people like you who just got interested in it. Most of them used some existing skills (such as programming or visual design -- I came to it by way of writing and editing) to land a spot on a product development team, then agitated to do the IA work once they were inside. From there, the demonstrated proof that you have done IA is your best asset in seeking to do more.
I find it deeply satisfying work -- it scratches an itch in my brain the way nothing else does. I know, however, that some people find it intensely boring. You probably already know which type you are.
posted by jjg at 12:18 AM on January 4, 2005
The vast, vast majority of practicing information architects are people like you who just got interested in it. Most of them used some existing skills (such as programming or visual design -- I came to it by way of writing and editing) to land a spot on a product development team, then agitated to do the IA work once they were inside. From there, the demonstrated proof that you have done IA is your best asset in seeking to do more.
I find it deeply satisfying work -- it scratches an itch in my brain the way nothing else does. I know, however, that some people find it intensely boring. You probably already know which type you are.
posted by jjg at 12:18 AM on January 4, 2005
*adds to general ovation for the q*
Take your time, mine your dreams, see what happens. You're 22 -- if you're unclear as to where you want to go, you owe it to yourself to sniff about for a couple of years. Don't take debt on until you know that it will be worthwhile to you.
Follow your nose, and best of luck!
posted by Wolof at 3:25 AM on January 4, 2005
Take your time, mine your dreams, see what happens. You're 22 -- if you're unclear as to where you want to go, you owe it to yourself to sniff about for a couple of years. Don't take debt on until you know that it will be worthwhile to you.
Follow your nose, and best of luck!
posted by Wolof at 3:25 AM on January 4, 2005
Response by poster: I was good at a lot of things, but once I found out what kind of a day doctors have, I couldn't seriously imagine myself doing something else.
Man, you're nuts.
And thanks all for the advice.
posted by kenko at 7:04 AM on January 4, 2005
Man, you're nuts.
And thanks all for the advice.
posted by kenko at 7:04 AM on January 4, 2005
I am going against consensus here. Go to law school! Having the degree will open many doors, not just the practice of law. Practicing law does not have to be bad and not all lawyers work 60 hour weeks. Go to a state school rather than a private school to lower your debt. Study hard your first semester, it is the most important, some say it is the only one that really counts. Get a good summer clerkship based on your first semester grades and you will make enough money to pay most if not all of the next year's tuition, repeat the following summer. Do you really want to spend your life just sitting around doing nothing? It sounds great at 22, but twenty years later you will feel like you wasted your time. If you find after a couple of years that you really hate being a lawyer then do something else. At least you will not have squandered this opportunity.
posted by caddis at 9:01 AM on January 4, 2005
posted by caddis at 9:01 AM on January 4, 2005
Can I chime in late in fervent support of profwhat and buddha9090's points of view? I'm in almost exactly the same position as the latter is in; just a little ater in life and as a career changer.
Do bear in mind that while the kind of legal jobs that you're most interested in do exist they are comparatively few and far between. Many lawyers will do this type of work on an occasional, pro bono basis. There are truly loads of people who feel he same way as you at law school so the competition for these public interest / human rights jobs which pay is unbelievably ferocious. Seriously, like getting a job at McKinsey & Co type ferocious.
I'm committed to doing the kind of work you are interested in but reconciled to the idea that few get to start their legal careers in this area. As such, because I can positively answer profwhat's question about whether I'm actually interested in regulatory law, (passionately as it happens; my former career was in this area) I'm at law school paid for by, and with a job waiting with, a global law firm.
(A UK point of view but I hope of value)
posted by dmt at 9:11 AM on January 4, 2005
Do bear in mind that while the kind of legal jobs that you're most interested in do exist they are comparatively few and far between. Many lawyers will do this type of work on an occasional, pro bono basis. There are truly loads of people who feel he same way as you at law school so the competition for these public interest / human rights jobs which pay is unbelievably ferocious. Seriously, like getting a job at McKinsey & Co type ferocious.
I'm committed to doing the kind of work you are interested in but reconciled to the idea that few get to start their legal careers in this area. As such, because I can positively answer profwhat's question about whether I'm actually interested in regulatory law, (passionately as it happens; my former career was in this area) I'm at law school paid for by, and with a job waiting with, a global law firm.
(A UK point of view but I hope of value)
posted by dmt at 9:11 AM on January 4, 2005
Kenko, I'm a bit late to the party here but I just wanted to throw in my two cents regarding library school. If you decide to go that route, like I did, consider UIUC. It's fantastic. Hell, you can even take all your classes over the interweb if you want.
posted by 40 Watt at 9:34 AM on January 5, 2005
posted by 40 Watt at 9:34 AM on January 5, 2005
i think that i am your karmic twin. i am your age and in almost exactly your position. and bizarrely enough, i hit upon--like a lightbulb going off randomly in my head--law librarianship the other day as a possibility. i have no idea where that notion came from--i hadn't read this post til just now--but the more i think about it the more excited i become. it seems to be something that would be a good mixture of abstract and concrete skill building, and if you've the mettle for it my understanding is a joint jd/mlis will provide you job flexibility...but yes, even now, i am totally with you about the "in a perfect world" thing. i have never been so confused, scared, and unsure of everything as now--it really feels, as you say, like this is crunch time for decisions because these decisions will be huge time sinks and possibly be some of the first ones that REALLY, concretely begin limiting what i can do in the future (ie getting a law degree to me feels like me resigning myself to the fact i'm closing the window in my life regarding writing and formally more creative pursuits)...i feel for you! good luck (i need it, perhaps you don't :).
posted by ifjuly at 12:28 AM on January 12, 2005
posted by ifjuly at 12:28 AM on January 12, 2005
This thread is closed to new comments.
In my job (which is, admittedly, not normal even in journalism) I get paid for reading diverse news sources, writing my opinion, and editing letters.
posted by u.n. owen at 12:17 PM on January 3, 2005