The Ex-Files

August 24, 2008 9:27 AM

How do continuing relationships with opposite sex friends (and some former lovers) affect one's primary relationship? Can these relationships negatively impact the SO relationship even though there is no desire on either SO's part to cheat?

I am in a relationship where we both maintain friendships with members of the opposite sex. We both have had minor bouts of jealousy and have openly shared them. I am trying to create and maintain the most healthy relationship that I can with my SO and am curious about these issues.

Are these relationship potentially threatening to the primary relationship in that time, attention and emotional closeness is directed outside of the relationship. I am looking for insights on this issue generally. Do exes pose more potential threats than opposite sex friends that have always been just friends? Does the frequency of communication raise any red flags, i.e. daily calls/texts/emails? What about if one SO is mostly excluded from the relationship with the ex/opposite sex friend? What if you are unsure of the friend's motivations? What about limitations on physical contact? What is your comfort level? What if you and your SO do not see eye to eye on what is appropriate--are there legitimate compromises?

I recently read an article about emotional infidelity and it raises the issue that these relationships can be damaging and almost always start out innocently enough. The article goes on to discuss that these relationships should be severely limited --i.e. no friendly hugs, no discussions beyond just basic pleasantries. The main point was that these relationships direct energy away from the primary relationship. Is this position too extreme or does it make a legitimate point?

Any personal experiences, opinions or thoughts are appreciated.

posted by anonymous to human relations (24 comments total)

It totally depends on the trust level and the emotional maturity of the parties involved. I have several close friendships with people with whom I was in the past physically intimate, and this is totally not an issue with my SO. (We are both 40+ years old, for what it's worth, and have been dating for 1 year. Some of these friendships are over 10 years in duration.)
posted by matildaben at 9:46 AM on August 24, 2008

Do exes pose more potential threats than opposite sex friends that have always been just friends?

Probably; everyone will be jealous in some small way. But if just talking to exes occasionally in a friendly way is causing tension, either one of you is out of line with flirting etc. or the other is hyper-sensitive.

Does the frequency of communication raise any red flags, i.e. daily calls/texts/emails?

Daily communication with an ex that you don't work with is a red flag. Daily communication with a person of the opposite sex that you've only ever been friends with is not.

What about if one SO is mostly excluded from the relationship with the ex/opposite sex friend?

Furtive or exclusive communication with an ex will raise any partner's hackles. Avoid it.

What if you are unsure of the friend's motivations?

One can't read another person's mind. Don't worry about it. If a person outside the relationship indicates that they are interested in more than friendship, cool it off.

What about limitations on physical contact? What is your comfort level?

Don't touch your exes. Particularly if your partner has already expressed some jealousy. I'm not sure why this would even come up, unless there's some excessive degree of flirtation going on.

What if you and your SO do not see eye to eye on what is appropriate--are there legitimate compromises?

Absolutely. Exes are exes for a reason. Unless your partner is completely out of line / possessive, I don't see what the big deal is. Friendly communication is fine. Spending a lot of time together, doing all sort of inside-joke stuff, or heavy flirting is usually not.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 9:47 AM on August 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

I'm not really sure what you're asking here since you've rattled off at least ten questions in this one post. Further, you're questions are so general, so pleading, that I can't read this as anything other than chat filter. You obviously have some ideas about relationships, and you're just wanting us to "chime in" with our own feelings and opinion. This isn't really a good use of AskMe. But, since the mods, in all their conflicted and confusing wisdom, let this through, I'll give it a shot:

Look around you.

Most people don't seem to be capable or at least 100% comfortable with maintaining a monogamous, serious, relationship and a meaningful friendship with a former lover.

These can be complicated relationships in all different directions. Jealousy and desire can creep in from all sides. Only in rare and exceptional instances can people come together and then maintain relationships as they move into other more serious arrangements.

It should tell you something that most people don't maintain these sorts of secondary relationships, or if they do, they don't seem to do a very good job of it.

None of this is to pass judgment on such relationships one way or the other. I consider just about all of my exs "friends" - but I only hang out with one regularly and it has caused some friction with other girlfriends, and honestly, I see that friendship drifting away as we both grow away from the actual relationship we had... so...
posted by wfrgms at 9:49 AM on August 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

Yes, strong friendships with the opposite sex (assuming the OS friend isn't interested in their own gender) will detract from your relationship. If you are texting/talking to the person everyday, it will harm your relationship. I was always a strong advocate of friendships with the opposite gender being hunky dory, but no longer believe that to be the case. I do not think that it is about trust and maturity in a case where you are in a very involved relationship with your friend. I've found that these in depth psuedo-partner friendships leave very little room for communication/your 'real' relationship to develop and thrive.

At the point you are describing - where the relationship with your 'friend' is obviously crazy amounts of inappropriate - all it comes down to for me is 'congratulations on not having slept with them, yet.'
posted by Acer_saccharum at 9:57 AM on August 24, 2008

You already know the answers to those questions. Most of them have obvious answers for the general case, and all of them are really only useful for you when answered by you and your SO. What is my comfort level? How will knowing that help you?

You have already seen the effects in your case, which is what matters. You know that the relationships can negatively impact you and your SO. Of course exes pose more potential threats (in general). Yes, frequency can raise red flags. Yes, a relationship from which the SO is excluded is more likely to cause problems. Being unsure of the friend's motivations can also cause problems. Etc., etc., etc. ...

The question about whether you and your SO can compromise is more useful. But any answer to that will depend on the specifics of the situation. Compromises always exist, it's just a matter of whether or not they can be reached.

The position in the article you cite is definitely extreme in my opinion and for most people I know. But at the same time, it could be the only thing that works for some people.

There are no rules about this. Talk to your SO like you have so far. Figure out what bothers him or her and what is okay. Compare that to how you'd like to interact with your other friends. Figure out if if it is acceptable to you to change your interactions to match your SO's comfort level in some cases, if she can accept your interactions as they are in other cases, and whether all of it is worth it.

You can learn about how others view such situations from us here, and that may help inform your own views. You will not be able to change your SO's views by telling him or her what we think, however, and it will be more useful to learn from your SO than from us.
posted by whatnotever at 10:01 AM on August 24, 2008

I recently read an article about emotional infidelity and it raises the issue that these relationships can be damaging and almost always start out innocently enough. The article goes on to discuss that these relationships should be severely limited --i.e. no friendly hugs, no discussions beyond just basic pleasantries. The main point was that these relationships direct energy away from the primary relationship. Is this position too extreme or does it make a legitimate point?

They make a point, but I'd qualify that by saying that it should be the SO and his/her friends, and you and your friends who create the boundaries, not you creating boundaries for your SO. That seems like a big difference. Requesting your SO put limits on her friendships like "no hugs" is not healthy. The best you can do is say "it makes me uncomfortable" and let your SO decide what to do.

Another big difference is the motivations and intentions of those external "friends". Are these people simply friends, or are they hangers-on biding their time until their "friend" becomes single or has a moment of weakness? Putting it into my own context, I'd have a problem with some dude hanging around my girlfriend who obviously harbors feelings for her.

Further, the concept of "diverting energy away from the primary relationship" seems odd. Not that it doesn't happen all the time, but that there's anything you can do about it. Demanding more "energy" out of a SO than she is willing to give seems needy.

I'm not sure if I buy into the notion of emotional infidelity- if someone goes outside the relationship for emotional support, there's something wrong with the main relationship. It also seems like a very controlling concept- the idea that a SO shouldn't have emotional connections with other people is not healthy.

In the end, it's about trust. You either trust your partner to live up to their commitment to you, or you don't. Proceed from there. Not to say that jealousy doesn't or shouldn't happen, but realize that it may not be rational. You have to make a conscious decision to trust. If your SO is going to cheat, it doesn't really matter if it's someone they are already friends with, or some "new friend".
posted by gjc at 10:02 AM on August 24, 2008

When you are doing something that you feel you need to keep secret from your SO, you are probably crossing a line. Now, that may be because you are doing something really innocuous but you have a nasty and controlling SO, or because you are misbehaving. Either way, it's the need to keep something secret that is the clue that something, somewhere, is not right.

I'm a man with lots of female friends, and I've always dated women who were mostly friends with men, not women who did the whole BFF!!!! thing with other women. Bad behavior has not automatically resulted from cross-gender friendships in my experience (or from my being friends with gay men, either). So it certainly is possible for this to not be a problem.

But I also know people who can't seem to have a friend of the opposite sex without falling a little in love with that person — there are people for whom those kinds of friendships are dangerous at best, and downright bad news a lot of the time.

What about if one SO is mostly excluded from the relationship with the ex/opposite sex friend?

This would bother me. It's fine if my SO has friends whom I don't really like, and it's fine if they hang out without me. But it's not fine if it is a space from which I am excluded, where they are creating an intimate closeness that becomes competition to other intimate connections.

The main point was that these relationships direct energy away from the primary relationship. Is this position too extreme or does it make a legitimate point?

I think every friendship, regardless of gender, needs to be evaluated in this way. The drama-queen friend who is on the phone every hour and wants full participation in every moment of their latest self-created drama can be a bigger drain on the relationship than someone who gets a bit too free with the hugs. But at the same time, I've watched flirtations at work become exactly what you are describing, where the flirters give each other a lot more emotional energy than they are giving their respective spouses, and that's not good.
posted by Forktine at 10:23 AM on August 24, 2008 [3 favorites]

I recently read an article about emotional infidelity and it raises the issue that these relationships can be damaging and almost always start out innocently enough. The article goes on to discuss that these relationships should be severely limited --i.e. no friendly hugs, no discussions beyond just basic pleasantries. The main point was that these relationships direct energy away from the primary relationship. Is this position too extreme or does it make a legitimate point?

I would just chime in to say that I don't know where you read this or if you're paraphrasing it in an unusual way, but this sounds just abominable. Once you're in a committed relationship, you're no longer allowed to have meaningful relationships (or even conversations) with anyone of the opposite sex? (Or the same sex, if you're attracted to them.) If your relationship can't survive normal interaction with or even the very existence of people outside it who could be your partner in some other possible world, then your relationship is a sickness. It may feel nice when you're inside it for a while, but it's a demented, manipulative arrangement.

I've always had friendships with women and my wife has never lost a femtosecond of sleep over it, and the same thing is true of me over her friendships with other men. Anyone who'd make demands like those wouldn't be welcome in my life. I have no doubt that there is such a thing as turning away from your partner and looking for emotional satisfaction from others in an unhealthy way, but people seek out other relationships in those ways because there's something wrong with their primary one, or because they're not emotionally mature enough to maintain a relationship themselves. The article you're paraphrasing mistakes the symptom for the disease.
posted by el_lupino at 10:28 AM on August 24, 2008 [8 favorites]

This is (second) best advice I ever got on relationships.

It's not enough to commit to being faithful. Commit to never put yourself in a situation where you could be unfaithful.

That is the key to what you're asking. Is this relationship with an ex giving you the window - emotional, physical, whatever - to be unfaithful. If it is, then you need to stop it.

Personally, I'm friendly with almost every person I ever loved, but it's just no threat to my current love. It's not a temptation to me in any way. However, if I ever felt an urge to cheat with one of those people, I'd end the friendship. I can appreciate them as friends and see them sexy, desirable, attractive people. That's cool. If it ever crosses the line to specific temptation, then it must stop.
posted by 26.2 at 10:33 AM on August 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

Are these relationship potentially threatening to the primary relationship in that time, attention and emotional closeness is directed outside of the relationship.
...
The main point was that these relationships direct energy away from the primary relationship.

Family relationships and same-sex friendships also involve time, attention, and emotional closeness directed outside of the relationship, and yet those aren't part of your question and when a relationship tries to limit access to these connections, it's generally considered a red flag for abuse. Just sayin'. Exclusion of the other SO and actual sexual contact are different issues from the above.
posted by dilettante at 10:51 AM on August 24, 2008 [2 favorites]

It seems like you're trying to make your romantic relationship "the most healthiest" by altering your relationships with other people. I think you've got that backwards. Healthy romantic relationships are not ones that require you to isolate yourself from your close friends.

If you find yourself depending emotionally on your close friends far more than your significant other, that doesn't mean you have an obligation to cut those close friends out of your life. Instead, it means that you have an issue to work through with your significant other. If you find yourself wanting to spend more time with your friends, then that means there is something lacking or flawed about your romantic relationship. If you and your significant other are arguing about how close you are to other people, then you are actually arguing about jealousy or insecurity.

In other words, if there is a disparity between how you feel about your close friends and how you feel about your significant other, no amount of change to how your treat your friends will strengthen your romantic relationship. Relationships are strong from the inside. Gain a strong relationship, and it couldn't matter at all if your friends are male or female, close or distant.
posted by Ms. Saint at 11:46 AM on August 24, 2008 [4 favorites]

There are people who pose a risk: most exes, and in general anyone who shows feelings for the S.O. Because there are ups and downs in every relationship, and you don't want the downs to turn into
"Wow, you're so much better than my S.O, I just wish I were dating you instead!"

On the other hand there are people who are supportive of your relationship and will be the voice of reason in those situations rather than encouraging negative feelings.

It's important to make sure your friends of the opposite sex want you to be happy and are supportive of your relationship, rather than secretly thinking that they'd be better for you than your S.O. is.
posted by Lady Li at 11:50 AM on August 24, 2008

The main point was that these relationships direct energy away from the primary relationship.

The whole concept of "emotional fidelity" seems like smoke and mirrors to hide behind when you're afraid that someone is going to commit sexual infidelity. Because as dilettante mentioned, brothers and sisters (can) have have a close relationship where they are in contact every single day, sharing emotional stuff and whatnot, and I've never heard of anyone taking the position that a close familial relationship is emotional infidelity.
posted by 23skidoo at 12:08 PM on August 24, 2008

... The article goes on to discuss that these relationships should be severely limited --i.e. no friendly hugs, no discussions beyond just basic pleasantries.

I'd read that article again (or have a mod post a citation please) because I hope that you have misread it. Was this an editorial in a college newspaper? This doesn't sound like emotional fidelity this sounds like a f-ing emotional prison. If my SO got upset with me hugging someone that I've been hugging for 10 or 20 years I would dump them like a hot rock. If they objected when I had a substantive conversation with an old friend then I'll keep the old friend and drop the (no so)S.O.

I'm an adult. Been one most of my life. I have relationships that are decades old. Some of these are ex-es in the proper sense. Some I would not put in the "x" file I have had flings with in the past and it didn't go anywhere. Others were always platonic. I'm not giving up any of them for a SO. They earned a "Friends" tag for a reason.

Everyone has a past. The older we get the more past we have. Meeting someone new doesn't change that past. It's true for me and true for my SO. We have to judge each other on our relationship, not on the past we weren't a part of. A mutual understanding of that is a quality of a mature relationship. If you don't trust me when I say I don't have a burning flame for an ex, or you're convicting me of thought crimes about female friends then you need to get over it or get out of my life. Because healthy couples talk about important issues to the relationship openly and honestly.
posted by Ookseer at 12:56 PM on August 24, 2008 [2 favorites]

For those who don't believe that these articles about "emotional infidelity" are written by adults for adults, see here and here.

Now, for myself, I don't think that the issue is "emotional infidelity" so much as emotional withholding by one partner from another. If someone spends energy on an emotional connection with a friend or an ex, rather than connecting emotionally with a partner, then the problem isn't the connection between the person and the friend--it's the lack of connection between the person and their partner.

I've been in the (awkward) position of being the "emotional other woman" and it was because my friend had issues about sharing his feelings with his wife, but it felt safe to him to talk about that stuff with me. I was pretty unhappy when I learned that she was unhappy about our friendship, too.
posted by Sidhedevil at 1:31 PM on August 24, 2008

I am not sure how to do the friends with ex things the right way, but I'm pretty sure I had the misfortune of experiencing the wrong way. I had dated my second boyfriend for months and I always tried to give him space for his friends. When he said he was going to get tacos with a friend, I didn't question it. However, later it came out that these dinners were with his ex alone and it wasn't like it was an old ex that he had spent time getting over...he and she had broken up right before he started dating me. Kind of something I might have liked to know because honestly...I wasn't very comfortable, especially since he wasn't up front about it. I felt like I wasn't given a choice and I might have chosen not to go out with someone so close to an ex...I don't know because he was furtive about it. I learned the hard way when she confronted me and accused me of stealing him. Umm...yeah, that was the end of that.
posted by melissam at 2:30 PM on August 24, 2008

This is far more about the individual people involved than some hard and fast "rule" about friendships. It is up to you to put your primary relationship first. Doing that is not about seeing how much you can get away with before it cracks or you fuck it up; it's about being honest with yourself and not behaving in a way that you know will undermine the good thing you have going.

If you are grown up and self-aware enough to do that, then it's all good. The details of who, what and where are never going to threaten your relationship when you are both actively putting the relationship first. Jealousy is completely wasted energy in my book.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:49 PM on August 24, 2008

I'm of the opinion that if you cannot trust your SO, you can either work on it -- if it's your own neuroses -- or not be with them -- if they have proven untrustworthy.

In my own relationship, I am female and the vast majority of my friends are male. I can go out to a movie and dinner with them, alone, and my fiance does not care because he knows I wouldn't do anything. I would trust him to do the same but all his friends happen to be male. I hug my male friends, I stay in contact with them, etc.

My instinct is to say that putting arbitrary limits on these things -- as in, "You can only talk to your female friends once a week, no hugging, etc" -- is just burying the real problems that cause the jealousy and insecurity in the first place. If you think your guy is going to cheat on you, then there's probably a reason for that other than he happens to have female friends he keeps in touch with. There has to be something that either makes you think he's that type of person, or something that makes you insecure with yourself, because in the absence of either of those things a person does not have a reason to think their SO will cheat on them. Applying band-aids to problems like that seems like a bad idea to me.
posted by Nattie at 3:50 PM on August 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

I recently read an article about emotional infidelity and it raises the issue that these relationships can be damaging and almost always start out innocently enough. The article goes on to discuss that these relationships should be severely limited --i.e. no friendly hugs, no discussions beyond just basic pleasantries. The main point was that these relationships direct energy away from the primary relationship. Is this position too extreme or does it make a legitimate point?

Gack ack ack!

This suggests that the ability to have some sort of emotional connection with people is a finite resource, as if you'll reach a point and not be able to smile, joke or hug any more--your quota for the day will be used up!

I find if I rely on one person to be my entire social circle I'm poor company. There are people beyond capital-R relationships who are valuable in people's lives, and so it seems cruelly demanding to foist the brunt of human interaction on your SO. If people have friends from different places in their lives it suggests to me that they care about the connections they make with others and have some kind of experience of the way people work.
posted by eponymouse at 5:04 PM on August 24, 2008 [2 favorites]

I don't think it's a question so much about what goes on with your friends as it is about what's going on between you and your partner. I think if the relationship is very open and very honest then friendships with exes and opposite sex friends would be fine. The corollary, of course, is that if there is a tendency to be suspicious and a lack of trust, then even the most innocent of friendships could be harmful. Any barriers or limitations you feel the need to put up are a reflection of your relationship with your SO, not of the 'riskiness' of your friendships.*

*This is assuming they are just friendships, and that there's no desire on either side to get back together.
posted by twirlypen at 5:18 PM on August 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

My wife and I both maintain platonic but intimate relationships with ex-lovers and it's no big deal. If everyone can deal with it and there is genuinely no intimacy weirdness with the ex I don't see what the problem is. For future reference: there are no rules.
posted by nanojath at 5:50 PM on August 24, 2008

I like to keep at least a low-level of regular contact with exes whenever possible, hanging out in person every now & then, but probably not much more than about once every month or two (and often in company, eg with the exes current partner). To cut somebody off just because you're no longer sexually involved with them seems weird & unnatural to me - after all, there must have been some connection, shared interests etc that made you seek each other out in the first place, and there's no reason why that should die.

I'd expect a partner to respect that, and to trust that I wouldn't be messing around. Paradoxically, with exes I think there's a bit of a been-there-done-that attitude at play, making sex, flirting or tension even less of a threat than it might be with a platonic friend, so in a way I think exes ought to be seen as 'safer' than people you've had no prior sexual dealings with.

I'm also of the opinion that people should try to cultivate & maintain as many friendships & social circles outside of their romantic relationship as possible, and that this simultaneously enriches & reduces pressure on that primary relationship. These needn't be friendships that exclude the SO, though. They may or may not come along for the ride, but the point is not to place too great a burden of expectation & reliance on the one person - that can create a lot of pressure, and also a huge social risk should the relationship fall apart, which, statistically speaking, is what normally happens eventually.
posted by UbuRoivas at 7:04 PM on August 24, 2008

One of the things I like about my dad is that he's remained close friends with two of his exes (who both went on to marry someone else after they'd broken up with him). I don't know whether or not he slept with them when they dated; this was in the 50's and early 60's...and these women were both rather surprised when I asked how they and Daddy met the first time I spoke with them one-on-one. The sons of one are always welcome in my parents' home--and I'm sure the daughters and their families of the other would be if they ever were to ask. I've never met the men who were the serious relationships of my mother before she began dating my father (they first encountered each other at a house-cooling party when she was 15 and he was 28, but didn't get involved for another seven years), but I'd like to speak with them and get their take on the family dynamic.
posted by brujita at 8:34 PM on August 24, 2008

I'm probably a day late and a dollar short, but I had to respond to a couple things here:

Daily communication with an ex that you don't work with is a red flag. Daily communication with a person of the opposite sex that you've only ever been friends with is not.

I have an ex that I do just this exact thing with. He is up the coast living with his wife and I'm down here with my husband. We talk nightly on IM because we are both night owls who tool around online trying to get to sleep. Guess what? Nothing more than geek talk happens. My husband doesn't mind one bit. His wife, however, was a different story for a while. She made a passive aggressive comment too many recently and I took the opportunity to set her straight. They were both at our wedding this past weekend without incident. There is nothing wrong with enjoying someone's conversation without having other intentions towards them on a daily basis.

Furtive or exclusive communication with an ex will raise any partner's hackles. Avoid it.

It'll definitely raise hackles, but it can also be a blessing for us who can't always deal with each of our SO's friends. Not everybody has everything in common with everyone. Even though my ex's wife and I are fine with each other now, I doubt she and I will be picking up a sudden correspondence. She's younger than I and has completely different interests. Likewise, there are friends of my husbands who I couldn't take with a ton of sugar. I have no problem with him hanging out with them while I stay in. It means we both enjoy ourselves without having to worry about my tenseness. Same applies to him and my friends.

I do agree that nothing should be furtive, though. If you are taking steps to hide the interactions from your partner or vice versa, it's time to re-evaluate.
posted by arishaun at 3:12 PM on August 25, 2008