Is cat pee a capital offense?

August 17, 2008 1:49 PM

Very Bad Cat: I need advice on what to do about a cat that is chronically peeing inappropriately in the house. We have ruled out medical issues (diabetes, UTI, etc) and believe it's behavioral. We have tried all the usually recommended solutions (keeping the litter box pristine, Feliway, Rx food for urine crystals, etc). What are our options? (Probably too much detail inside.)

The details are: 2 adult male neutered indoor cats, 2 adults, one rowhouse. The cats don't love each other but have lived together for 3 years so this is not a new arrangement. Cat #2, the chronic pisser, is a rescue, and is very overweight despite being on a diet for years now. He will pee on ANYTHING fabric-like that is placed on the floor, so we have no rugs, mats, or anything throughout our house. He has also peed on the couches, and one bed. And my favorite gray purse. And a gym bag, his carboard box scratchpads, misc cardboard boxes, etc. No surface seems to be safe, but we do genuinely try to avoid his trigger areas.

Vet testing ruled out medical reasons, so we believe this is behavioral. We give the cat plenty of attention, and really can't alter our life any more. For example, it probably stresses the cat out a bit when he has a sitter or when we have out of town guests, but I can't just never leave town or never have people over!

The cat, while usually a sweetie, is, sad to say, extraordinarily dumb. He doesn't seem to have any idea when he is caught in the act that he is doing anything wrong. I think he probably had a crappy life on the streets as a younger kitty and just didn't learn how to be a good pet cat. However, my husband truly loves this cat and feels horrible about the situation we're in.

So -- what are my choices? I personally have had enough and am ready to get rid of the cat. Please don't hate me for saying this, but I would prefer to euthanize the cat rather than give it up and just hope for a better outcome with a different family. I believe the cat is beyond help. Maybe I'm just so fed up I'm thinking irrationally.

Husband loves this cat dearly and is having a harder time with what to do. One thing we can agree on is that we can no longer live like this. I personally, in good conscience, cannot give this cat away to another family to let it ruin their home too, or let him squander in a shelter, sad and lonely. I think we need to end the misery for everyone and put the cat to sleep. I feel we have exhausted our options. Again, I may just be too fed up to think straight, but this has been a problem for 2 yrs.

I do not want to sink a bunch more money into testing/vet care/Feliway/new furniture. I am tired of this money pit in my life. I have spent hundreds if not in the thousands by now, and nothing is better, cat pee is still ruining my home.

Will a humane society shelter euthanize a pet for something like this? Will a veterinarian? Am I a horrible person for wanting to do this? How can I get my husband to agree this is a good solution?

Thank you in advance for your advice. I am at my wit's end and need some perspective from people outside of the situation.

posted by jay dee bee to pets & animals (36 comments total)

Am I a horrible person for wanting to do this?

Dunno about horrible, but you're certainly being a little narrow-minded.

There are lots of options involving getting rid of the cat that don't involve getting RID of the cat. His behavioral issues could very well be the result of having to share the house with another cat. Take him to a no-kill shelter, and they will work to find a home that is more suitable for him.

Also, not everyone is going to be as impatient with the cat as you are. I have a pee-er too, and it annoys the hell out of me, but I'm not about to give him up or put him down. You need to take the time and spend the effort to find him a better home. He doesn't deserve to be killed just because it's easier for you.
posted by mudpuppie at 2:11 PM on August 17, 2008 [1 favorite]

We had a cat that nothing worked on. After years of misery, my mom finally figured out that if there were not one but TWO litterboxes, the cat would poop in one and pee in the other. There were no more incidents after that. And that was in a one-cat household!

Try putting one or two more litterboxes out and see if that helps.
posted by [NOT HERMITOSIS-IST] at 2:15 PM on August 17, 2008 [1 favorite]

A friend's cat did this, kitty depression was the diagnosis. She had to put him on feline prozac.
posted by Kellydamnit at 2:19 PM on August 17, 2008

mudpuppie -- I appreciate your comment. You are probably right that I am being narrow-minded, just because I have been so frustrated for so long. We placed an ad for the cat on craigslist, but didn't get any replies, possibly because I refuse to lie to people and not tell them he has a peeing problem. Fat, peeing cats are apparently not popular adoptees! We also called several no-kill shelters, none of whom are accepting additional cats. Maybe it's worth a re-doubled effort.

[NOT HERMITOSIS-IST] -- I negleted to mention this, but we do have 2 litter boxes, and we clean them daily. Good idea though!
posted by jay dee bee at 2:24 PM on August 17, 2008

re: # of litter boxes- two is not enough. You probably need at least three if not four considering his problem. I know it sounds effing crazy, but you should always have one more litter box than you have cats. One thing you did not list - have you used Cat Attract litter? That stuff worked for us when nothing else would. Good luck.
posted by Medieval Maven at 2:54 PM on August 17, 2008 [1 favorite]

I am in the same boat as mudpuppie. I have a chronic pisser. It has been determined to be behavioral. Unfortunately for me, the behavioral meds don't work, but have you considered this option? They do work for a lot of people.

Also, the rule of thumb is one litter box for each cat in the household plus one extra on top of that number. Do you have 3 litter boxes?

Have you tried changing the brand of litter? Cats can be picky about that.

I am trying to use the Litter Kwitter for my cat, because the behaviorist suggested that giving her a "job" might help. Sounds silly, but it has cut down on accidents.

If you would like more tips or have questions, feel free to send me a message.

Good luck!
posted by bolognius maximus at 2:54 PM on August 17, 2008

You may have a hard time finding a vet who will euthanize for this issue. It is also not necessary. There are cat rescues-- they may be able to help. The anxiety you have about his problem is rubbing off on him, more than likely. So we need to stop the anxiety cycle.

First off, if you have 2 cats, you should have 3 boxes. I have learned the hard way that # of cats+1 is the way to go. Three small boxes will not be bad to take care of. Really, after one (and with us as many as 6), it is all the same really...

There is the possibility that the cat does not like the litter.

There is also the possibility that this is a depression/anxiety thing.

Your other cat may be intimidating the offending cat in ways you aren't seeing (because you are not a cat).

Either way, when we had one of our kitties not using the box, we confined her to a Great Dane cage for upwards of a month. It seems cruel, but with a little igloo to hide in, toys, attention between the bars (and later we would open the cage and go in ourselves-- she got used to the cage and found solace in it).

This crating method retaught our cat to use the box and not be intimidated by the other cats. It also allowed us to try litters and watch her diet. She stayed in the crate for about 2 months. She had not had a problem since.

Feel free to MeMail me if you like. I am associated with a local no-kill feral cat rescue group. We have a lot of advice for this.
posted by oflinkey at 2:54 PM on August 17, 2008 [2 favorites]

Sorry about the errors. Oof.
posted by oflinkey at 2:56 PM on August 17, 2008

Oh! And Anti-Icky Poo for the urine stains. A bit expensive. Worth. Every. Cent.
posted by oflinkey at 2:57 PM on August 17, 2008

You have my sympathies, I too had a cat like this. Our end solution was to confine him to a spare bedroom with his own litterbox, bedding, food and water for the remainder of his life. The upside was he stopped peeing in there, eventually. Unfortunately, he never did transfer this knowledge to other parts of the house, so back to the room he went. The downside was it took extra effort for us to go in there several times a day to give him attention and our friends took to calling him Brian Wilson.

When he died (at 17!), we had to tear out the floor down to the supports and the walls to bare studs to get the smell out, so it's probably not a solution that will work for everyone.
posted by jamaro at 3:02 PM on August 17, 2008

We could do 3 boxes -- that seems like a low cost/low hassle solution, although I doubt it will help. (See: hopelessness of my feelings). I think oflinkey is right that Cat #1 may be causing anxiety in Cat #2 in ways we don't see.

These are good comments, please keep them coming. I appreciate the advice and mostly just need the outside perspective.
posted by jay dee bee at 3:02 PM on August 17, 2008

Also, we have used A LOT of Anti-Icky Poo over the last year. Thank goodness for that stuff! But yeah....do I need to have every item in my house saturated with it? :) It ain't cheap!

jamaro -- that is indeed sad. Our small-sized home does not allow for the cat to have his own room, plus, that just sound miserable for everyone, including the cat. Truly, is it not more humane to just put down the cat in this situation? I consider myself a compassionate person but...at what point does living like this become just ridiculous?
posted by jay dee bee at 3:07 PM on August 17, 2008

Truly, is it not more humane to just put down the cat in this situation? I consider myself a compassionate person but...at what point does living like this become just ridiculous?

Living like this become ridiculous for whom? You or the cat?

This is a serious question: Are you mostly concerned for the cat's quality of life, or for yours?
posted by Justinian at 3:15 PM on August 17, 2008

An old girlfriend has a cat that is (best I can figure) completely insane; eyes like beautiful cracked yellow marbles, upwards of seventeen thousand distinct and individual neurotic and/or psychotic behaviors. This cat peed on her clothing, her bedding, her pillows, the carpets, the tile floors, the tables, the counters, anything else, on and on and on. It peed on her as she slept, and sometimes when she was awake. Regardless clean litter boxes. Regardless trying meds for possible infections, regardless trying different diets, regardless anything. The cat was in my condo one time, immediately ran to my brand new mattress and pissed on it. I was livid, infuriated, insisted that they leave (duh).

But I sortof understand mental illness -- I have known a few schizophrenics, a few schizo-affectives, more than a few manic depressives. While none of them has (yet) pissed on my bed, I do understand that the way that these people behave is, many times, beyond their control. Fortunately, many of these people are able to be helped, better living through chemistry, etc and etc. Unfortunately, I have yet to see any anti-psychotics marketed toward the feline population.

I was taking care of the cat when ex-gf was out of town helping her mother, trying to give it antibiotics, getting clawed up twice a day; I finally gave up, took the cat to the local vet, paid them to administer the drugs, ten bucks a pop. In talking to my favorite vet tech, I brought up how the cat pees on everything and he immediately said "Oh, you mean it's an outdoor cat, right?" Wisdom.

Best I know, the cat is still in charge of ex-gf's life, and destroying everything it can, either with pee or claws. I have to hand it to ex-gf; she is one hell of a loving woman -- she stuck with me a long time. More to the point of this post, she also has hung in with that cat.

You have an outdoor cat.
posted by dancestoblue at 3:17 PM on August 17, 2008

my advice is to upgrade the behavior modification on yr kitty.

i'd do this by retraining him. might be kind of difficult with an adult cat, but I would follow the same model of crate training as I would a puppy. I would give him a larger crate and I'd put a litterbox in it, which would be different.

I'd keep him when i was out of the flat, and all night. I'd let him out in the daytime for 4-6 hours,or however long he typically goes pee. If he's peeing every 6 hours, I'd take him out at 8 am, and put him back in at 12. there he would remain until he peed in the litterbox.

once he pees, he's earned another 4 hours of free time. if he pees inappropriately, crate him again until he pees again. when he's out roaming, keep the crate door open so he can go in there if he wants.

as he goes longer with peeless roaming time, increase the free time he earns with peeing appropriately.

it'll probably take a couple of months and require some other modification from the traditional crate training model that you will stumble across.
posted by lester at 3:31 PM on August 17, 2008

Are you mostly concerned for the cat's quality of life, or for yours?

I am concerned with both. I do not think that a life shut away in a room that is designated as a pee-zone (as jamaro above described) is a good life for a cat. I do not think that a life stuck in a crate is a good life for a cat.

I am also concerned with my and my husband's quality of life. This gives us major stress, and I don't think it's healthy.

I am struggling with this problem, I am not taking it lightly. I do think there is a possibility that it is more humane to have a dead cat than to have a cat that is making life miserable for us and the people who come to our house (family and friends). Maybe that makes me a bad person...maybe it's rational.

Does anyone think that what jamaro described, or what dancestoblue described, is a good situation, and perhaps better than just putting down the cat? I don't see it.

If we can find another home, or somehow safely make this cat an outdoor cat, that is probably better. But I don't know if those are feasible options.

My concerns with making this cat an outdoor cat are: fleas, illness, poison, other cats, dogs, cars, getting lost, the Unknown, etc. We live in an urban area and there are lots of strays and other urban maladies.
posted by jay dee bee at 3:41 PM on August 17, 2008

lester -- thank you for the suggestion. It sounds reasonable to me.
posted by jay dee bee at 3:44 PM on August 17, 2008

We had a cat that objected to the litter box daily. We had her for 4 or 5 years before I finally reached my end point with her. It was behavioral. She hated sharing our place with two dogs, a child and another cat. We tried contacting all the local rescues. They were either not taking in more animals or never responded to us. She was a purebred and I was able to eventually list her on a breed specific site. A very kind individual contacted me about her. Like you, I was honest about why we needed to find her a new home. The individual was not put off and eventually drove nearly 400 miles to come pick her up. It was a great match. The cat now lives with one person and a much older, less dominant cat. Her litter box usage has gone up. She is happy and well loved in her new home.

Your home may not be the right one for your peeing cat. If he is a specific breed, try listing him on a breed rescue site. It may take time, but you may just be surprised that someone is willing to give this cat a new home. Good luck.
posted by onhazier at 3:44 PM on August 17, 2008

My ex had a previously good indoor cat that got old and started peeing in all the corners of the house.
We tried everything.
There's a retraining thing some vets recommend, where you lock the cat in the spare bathroom (if you have one) with only food and a litter box and keep it in there for 2 weeks. The idea is that the cat will have no choice except to use the litter box, and will relearn to pee there.
My ex tried it twice, and it didn't work at all. It also seemed pretty cruel.

She also tried those plug-in Felaway things, but I'm really allergic to whatever is in that stuff (it go so I couldn't breath) and for the time we used it it seemed to have no effect on the cat anyway.

I know that after we broke up the ex got fed up with the unfixable cat and had her put down.

So in my experience, some previously well behaved cats get old and start peeing everywhere and can't be stopped, and the only 100% solutions are to make them outdoor cats (if the cat is up to it and you live somewhere where you can do that) or get rid of the cat.
posted by w0mbat at 4:16 PM on August 17, 2008

Another data point for you to consider. We have a four year old neutered male cat, and an older female. Two older females until recently. The male was mischievous but not known to pee inappropriately until we moved to a different house about a year ago. His peeing behavior has not been as chronic as you described, but we'd catch him at it or detect it once in a while.

The usual medical causes were ruled out, and we're following the rule about 1 box per cat, plus one. He took the pheromone diffuser as a personal affront, and peed near it right away.

But kitty antidepressants have helped a great deal. If we remember to give him his daily pill, we don't have any trouble. They're not expensive. I'd recommend trying it if you can give it a couple more weeks or so.
posted by Snerd at 4:25 PM on August 17, 2008

Wow. OP, you could be me, almost word for word. We are in a nearly identical situation, so I will definitely be watching this thread with great interest. My husband & I also have a cat, female, spayed, about 15-16 years old. Since kittenhood she has been a pee-er with a preference of any fabric like yours. She also does #2 wherever she gol'durn pleases. No amount of vet visits, medication, increasing # of litterboxes, food changes, litter brand changes, feliway, cat psychics, voodoo or magic spells have had any effect. She has ruined countless household items & furniture. She hates our other cats and actively picks fights with them, then stresses herself out and runs to pee on something. Her issue is definitely mental/behavioral and it's clear her preference is to be "the only cat." Our only solution has been to lock her away in her own room with hardwood floors and no furniture (save an old office chair which she poops and sleeps on) on the 2nd floor, completely isolated in her own "apartment". She can't even have toys because she'll seek them out to pee on them. At 16 years old, rehoming is exceedingly unlikely and punting her outdoors is not an option as she was declawed on all 4 feet before husband adopted her. We feel terribly guilty about the notion of putting her down, but we too struggle with the dichotomy of her quality of life - up there by herself, vs. euthenasia to release her from loneliness, boredom, and isolation. She does seem happy enough by herself up there and doesn't complain - just sleeps in her window and eats her crunchies. Those times we do bring her down to spend time with us, she's obviously unhappy and cries to go back to her room. So, she sits there all by herself and we wait. The people who say "you're not trying hard enough," have never been in this situation. It's very difficult and heartbreaking.... so, though I don't have solutions (I wish I did), you're not alone. You are not a bad person, and the very fact that you're anguishing over this and asking for help shows you're certainly not narrow minded. Whatever choice you make, I'm confident you will make the right choice. Best of luck to you & kitty.
posted by cuddles.mcsnuggy at 4:40 PM on August 17, 2008

You have a cat situation exactly like mine. Except my cat doesn't pee on everything. He vomits up everything he eats where ever he happens to be. Been happening for 8 years straight and despite that, my husband loves the hell out of him. This cat is perfectly healthy, which is mind-boggling. I am comforted by the fact he is almost two decades old so he will probably die of natural causes some day soon. However, cat piss is absolutely foul and you ought to remove him from your home because that sounds like pure torture. Perhaps you could get a big covered kennel and keep him outside. Just because he's a cat doesn't mean he gets the run of the house. Another thought is, perhaps you could get a full-time maid to clean up after him and see how your husband likes that? Furthermore, you are not a horrible person at all by considering what you have been considering. You are normal.
posted by mamaraks at 4:44 PM on August 17, 2008

I am concerned with both. I do not think that a life shut away in a room that is designated as a pee-zone (as jamaro above described) is a good life for a cat.

I'll have to disagree. It's fair to say that it might not be a good life for your cat but it was a great life for my cat. I know you're frustrated and sick at heart at this situation, but blanket dismissals aren't going to find you a solution.
posted by jamaro at 4:57 PM on August 17, 2008

My concerns with making this cat an outdoor cat are: fleas, illness, poison, other cats, dogs, cars, getting lost, the Unknown, etc. We live in an urban area and there are lots of strays and other urban maladies.

Cats are smarter than we give them credit for. Your cat will not run off unless it hates you. It will most likely just camp out in your yard all day. It isn't going to eat poison. It will most likely avoid dogs unless the dog messes with it. And it is definitely going to fight other cats outside, but cats don't usually battle to the death. It's a scrape that will hurt them both and the invading cat will leave rather than continue the battle.

Outside isn't as scary for your cat as you think it is.
posted by aburd at 4:57 PM on August 17, 2008

Hi, we also had this problem, and I was terrified that my husband would make me get rid of the cat. Which isn't something I wanted to do, but I didn't know what else to try.

In desperation, I got a huge litter box (it seems that your cat has a weight issue -- maybe even one of those blue Rubbermaid totes with a big hole cut in the lid) and Cat Attract (sold at the local pet store), as Medieval Maven suggested.

It worked immediately. We had only one instance of peeing outside the box again, and that was when I did not change it often enough (sorry, cat).

I don't know if it's catnip in there or what, but they LOVE it. To the point where I had to start putting the bag in the closet because they would rip it open and roll around in it and pee in the pile. Whatever ... better than on my bed. EW!

Please try this before euthanasia. I don't work for the company or anything, but it works like magic. I was so relieved. Now if I could just keep him out of the fishtank.
posted by theredpen at 5:02 PM on August 17, 2008

Oh and get some of the special anti-cat-pee cleaner and clean the favorite spots to remove the temptation. I don't think the smell ever gets out to the point where the cat can't smell it. He still eyeballs his favorite places and makes me nervous, but he prefers the litter now.
posted by theredpen at 5:04 PM on August 17, 2008

thanks to everyone for the suggestions. I really am taking them to heart and my husband and I are going to put some of them to use, including Cat Attract, letting the cat outside some, adding another litter box, and possibly behavioral crate training/confining to one room for awhile.

If none of the above work, we have agreed to try again to find a better home for him. Euthanasia will be a last resort. Thanks for the perspective.
posted by jay dee bee at 5:21 PM on August 17, 2008

jamaro -- just to clarify, I wasn't dismissing the "alone in the room" solution as bad for the cat, but more bad for us as homeowners as I have no desire to have to rip up and replace walls and floors of this room. We have a small home and just one extra bedroom aside from our own to be used for guests and a future kid. I wasn't clear in my wording there.
posted by jay dee bee at 5:29 PM on August 17, 2008

We have an ex-breeding Tom, now neutered. He was a chronic pisser. Everywhere. We tried threats, water spraying, all the various bad cat options. In the end, what worked for us was putting his food anywhere he had gotten into the habit of pissing.

He'd give us dirty looks when we did it ("This is my toilet, you barbarians!"), but eventually stopped pissing where he shouldn't.

When we move house to one where it's feasible, we'll be giving him a cat run - having been an indoor cat his whole life, he's not a good one to let roam, but we'll build a big caged area for him with a door to the house, so any residual desire to mark stuff can happen out there.
posted by rodgerd at 5:35 PM on August 17, 2008 [2 favorites]

I had a cat that did this.... I think we have discussed this topic before. I tried everything - medicine, behavioral therapy, food, two litterboxes, you name it. But every single time the bedroom door was open, she would run in, jump on the bed, and pee on my pillow. If the door was closed, she would pee on the recliner and couch. I put up with it for a year, and finally decided to shoot her.
posted by bradth27 at 5:43 PM on August 17, 2008

fwiw jay dee bee - I think the cat would be comforted if the home were less stressful for everyone - so if he gets relief from whatever intimidation the other cat is putting on him, and if you guys are happier. If crating him (progressively or 100%) until he figures out he can use the box without it being a territory battle (which I think is really very possible in this situation) means that the above two items are alleviated, he might be a totally different cat. If not, he may just need to live with one person. Some cats can't successful cohabit with other cats, esp other cats that are more dominant. It's OK for that to be the case. It just means he needs to go live with a sweet little old lady, that's all.
posted by Medieval Maven at 6:02 PM on August 17, 2008 [1 favorite]

We had a cat who peed everywhere at my parents' house. He would pee everywhere and it seemed there was no way to stop it. This went on for years. Then my younger sister moved into an apartment, and took this cat with her (because she and I were the cat's only advocates and my mom implied she would give the cat up). In the new setting, the cat virtually stopped peeing outside the litter box. There were literally one or two isolated incidents and nothing else. Our theory was that the cat-detectible scent of urine throughout my parents' house encouraged the cat to continue, and the cat was better when removed from the cycle. But it could have been any number of subtle things that were now different that changed things with the cat. Perhaps my mom's stress and anger at the cat peeing was having an impact before. It's hard to know for sure.

I suppose the main thing to take from my anecdote is that environment can definitely have a huge impact. Now my sister has a completely different cat (in terms of bad behavior). Don't figure this cat for hopeless.
posted by kosmonaut at 6:49 PM on August 17, 2008

I have your exact problem, and I can understand your frustration.

When I brought up euthanizing the cat to my vet, my vet did indeed act like a was a horrible person. He was adamantly against it. He also told me that I need NINE litterboxes in my house - 3 on each floor! He said that the litterbox areas should be well-lit and not scary.

While he was telling me this, he was holding my cat protectively and cooing to him softly, like he truly felt sorry for him.

There is no way I am going to have 9 litterboxes. I compromised by leaving the light on in the room where the litterboxes are kept all the freakin' time. I have three different types of litterboxes - a hooded one, one with a little ledge around it, and one that is a big rubbermaid tub with high sides. He has access to both Feline Pine and clay litter.

He still pees/craps on the floor. But just not as often. He does seem to prefer the pine litter.
posted by Ostara at 7:44 PM on August 17, 2008

I can so relate to this, we had the exact same thing happen to us except for it being one of our two female cats. After two years we were at the point of seriously considering getting the biggest small animal cage we could find and confining our cat to the cage whenever we weren't actually handling her.

Luckily our new vet (we moved provinces about 22 months into this saga) proscribed AMITRIP which is a human anti depressant though they aren't positive what it does for cats. Initially 10mg a day and then tapered off to a maintenance dose of 5mg (a half pill) every other day. Or cat stopped the peeing everywhere immediately and the only accidents are when we forget to give the pill. And it's _cheap_, each pill is like $0.10. We spent more on Natures Miracle in a week than a years worth of the medication costs. The first couple weeks was a struggle to give the pill but now she is resigned to it and I rarely have a problem.

PS: While a common side effect is lethargy, and our cat was maybe slightly zoned initially, on the minimum dose she is actually more active and frisky.
posted by Mitheral at 7:46 PM on August 17, 2008

Seconding Mitheral's experiences. My cat used to pee on the carpet all the time. If I blocked his access to his favorite spots, he'd just pee somewhere else. I got him checked out by the vet for medical issues, but he was fine. I tried pretty much every behavioral correction the internet had to suggest.

Finally, the vet put him on generic Prozac. Since the very first dose, I have not found any evidence that he's peed on the carpet, or anywhere other than the litter box. It's a little more expensive with my vet--about $10 for a month's supply--but still way cheap compared with all the cleaning product you'd have to buy otherwise.
posted by gwyn at 7:47 PM on August 18, 2008

Cats cannot act "inappropriately." They are not human and lack a sense of appropriateness.

They are animals and owe you no obediance. You brought the animal into your house. Animals need to be trained to do as you wish. They are unable to do as you wish via obligation, which they do not feel, not being human.

Evaluate your decision based on these facts.
posted by Ironmouth at 1:18 AM on October 27, 2008 [1 favorite]