Do I intervene with the bullies?
August 3, 2008 1:21 PM Subscribe
My son may be gay. I don't think he even knows yet. He is 15 this month-entering high school. He is ADHD, funny, cute, great with kids, thoughtful, and very loud and effeminate. He's jumped into the theater/choir crowd at school (Big group- I LOVE these kids and their families!). My question is- Can or should a mom get involved with the bullying that goes on?
I worry that I don't parent this child well. He is pretty obnoxious and acts inappropriately often. For instance, he's loud when he shouldn't be, acts flamboyantly when the situation calls for acting demurely. I'm telling you this first, so you will know that oftentimes, he sets himself up for trouble.
I want to support him regarding his sexual orientation, but I'm not sure how to do it. We live in the middle of the Bible Belt, and most teens that I know are gay don't come out openly.I think they know their life would be too hard.
The bullying never stops for my son. He is picked on endlessly-online, in person, in school.
He finally said to me that people were going to pick on him no matter what he does, so he's going to do what he wants.
I find myself telling him to settle down all the time. For instance, he wants to wear certain clothes. I tell him that the ribbing will get worse if he wears this or that. Should I be doing that?
For you adult gays out there, (this is only for the ones that are effeminate in nature), what do you wish your parents would have done to make your life easier? His life outside the home is sometimes a living hell and I don't know the best way to help him.
I am of the school of thought that I can't do anything about his sexual orientation, so I'm not trying to change him. I just want his high school career to go a little smoother than middle school did.
I worry that I don't parent this child well. He is pretty obnoxious and acts inappropriately often. For instance, he's loud when he shouldn't be, acts flamboyantly when the situation calls for acting demurely. I'm telling you this first, so you will know that oftentimes, he sets himself up for trouble.
I want to support him regarding his sexual orientation, but I'm not sure how to do it. We live in the middle of the Bible Belt, and most teens that I know are gay don't come out openly.I think they know their life would be too hard.
The bullying never stops for my son. He is picked on endlessly-online, in person, in school.
He finally said to me that people were going to pick on him no matter what he does, so he's going to do what he wants.
I find myself telling him to settle down all the time. For instance, he wants to wear certain clothes. I tell him that the ribbing will get worse if he wears this or that. Should I be doing that?
For you adult gays out there, (this is only for the ones that are effeminate in nature), what do you wish your parents would have done to make your life easier? His life outside the home is sometimes a living hell and I don't know the best way to help him.
I am of the school of thought that I can't do anything about his sexual orientation, so I'm not trying to change him. I just want his high school career to go a little smoother than middle school did.
He finally said to me that people were going to pick on him no matter what he does, so he's going to do what he wants.
It looks like he's dealing with this effectively. In 3 years he'll move away to the big gay city with all the other theater kids and have a big gay time. It might be a few years after that until he's comfortable talking about what a big gay time he's having in his big gay theater department. Don't push him out of the closet, be supportive and he'll do fine. Don't smother him.
posted by geoff. at 1:37 PM on August 3, 2008 [11 favorites]
It looks like he's dealing with this effectively. In 3 years he'll move away to the big gay city with all the other theater kids and have a big gay time. It might be a few years after that until he's comfortable talking about what a big gay time he's having in his big gay theater department. Don't push him out of the closet, be supportive and he'll do fine. Don't smother him.
posted by geoff. at 1:37 PM on August 3, 2008 [11 favorites]
I wish you could tell us if he's being bullied by his own group of friends (the drama kids) or other groups? And if his own group of friends is similarly flamboyant and such?
I remember when I was in high school (and things have changed since then) that the "football/cheerleader" clique always made fun of the "drama" clique, and made tremendous use of the old thespian/lesbian jokes. Maybe what he's doing helps him secure friendships within his chosen group (the drama kids) even at the expense of being bullied by other cliques? That would just be high school, at least as I remember it: Choose one clique and be bullied or teased by the other cliques.
posted by Houstonian at 1:39 PM on August 3, 2008
I remember when I was in high school (and things have changed since then) that the "football/cheerleader" clique always made fun of the "drama" clique, and made tremendous use of the old thespian/lesbian jokes. Maybe what he's doing helps him secure friendships within his chosen group (the drama kids) even at the expense of being bullied by other cliques? That would just be high school, at least as I remember it: Choose one clique and be bullied or teased by the other cliques.
posted by Houstonian at 1:39 PM on August 3, 2008
He finally said to me that people were going to pick on him no matter what he does, so he's going to do what he wants.
He sounds like a strong kid, with a good perspective on life. That observation he made is very mature and suggests that he has a strong sense of self.
Why encourage him to change who he is to please other kids? Especially when he has a clear sense of his identity and is already coping with the bullying quite well?
posted by jayder at 1:42 PM on August 3, 2008 [4 favorites]
He sounds like a strong kid, with a good perspective on life. That observation he made is very mature and suggests that he has a strong sense of self.
Why encourage him to change who he is to please other kids? Especially when he has a clear sense of his identity and is already coping with the bullying quite well?
posted by jayder at 1:42 PM on August 3, 2008 [4 favorites]
On the other hand, of course if the bullying is actually hurting him or threatening him, I think you should step in with the authorities. You know, if he wears a certain outfit and kids say, "ha ha ur gay!" well, whatever. But if it's "ha ha ur gay and now i'm gonna kill you/beat you up/etc." that's totally a different matter.
posted by Houstonian at 1:42 PM on August 3, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by Houstonian at 1:42 PM on August 3, 2008 [1 favorite]
He finally said to me that people were going to pick on him no matter what he does, so he's going to do what he wants.
I find myself telling him to settle down all the time. For instance, he wants to wear certain clothes. I tell him that the ribbing will get worse if he wears this or that. Should I be doing that?
I'm neither a parent nor a gay man, so take me with a grain of salt, but...
It sounds like he's trying pretty hard to carve out his own identity. The bullying is only emboldening him to be who he wants to be. He's not going to listen to you about the clothes, because his fatalistic attitude about the bullying has trained him not to listen to people telling him he shouldn't be doing this or that. In some ways this is a positive - he's being his own person, and he's going to be himself no matter what the naysayers might, er, nay. It sounds like he's inuring himself to unwarranted criticism, whether it's for being different or for actually being gay. He has clearly found his own community who accept him, and he accepts them. This is great! We've successfully avoided a Dawn Weiner situation. In other ways this could be a negative - I take your word for it that he's being obnoxious, and I'll also take your word for it that his clothing is inappropriate.
IMHO, the best you can do for him is to "cut the crap" and let him know that you like his theater friends and that you support him 100%, while also being frank with him that you're not crazy about his clothes, and let him know that he can still be himself while also toning it down.
But you know what? He's 15. This is the time in his life where he can afford to be this way, and as long as he does have a community of his own, what's to worry about a few bullies? Telling him that he might only get teased more for wearing this or that might only encourage him to do it more. He won't be accepted by these bullies, so he's just going to go nuts doing what he knows annoys them. Lord knows I would have, at his age.
posted by Sticherbeast at 1:42 PM on August 3, 2008
I find myself telling him to settle down all the time. For instance, he wants to wear certain clothes. I tell him that the ribbing will get worse if he wears this or that. Should I be doing that?
I'm neither a parent nor a gay man, so take me with a grain of salt, but...
It sounds like he's trying pretty hard to carve out his own identity. The bullying is only emboldening him to be who he wants to be. He's not going to listen to you about the clothes, because his fatalistic attitude about the bullying has trained him not to listen to people telling him he shouldn't be doing this or that. In some ways this is a positive - he's being his own person, and he's going to be himself no matter what the naysayers might, er, nay. It sounds like he's inuring himself to unwarranted criticism, whether it's for being different or for actually being gay. He has clearly found his own community who accept him, and he accepts them. This is great! We've successfully avoided a Dawn Weiner situation. In other ways this could be a negative - I take your word for it that he's being obnoxious, and I'll also take your word for it that his clothing is inappropriate.
IMHO, the best you can do for him is to "cut the crap" and let him know that you like his theater friends and that you support him 100%, while also being frank with him that you're not crazy about his clothes, and let him know that he can still be himself while also toning it down.
But you know what? He's 15. This is the time in his life where he can afford to be this way, and as long as he does have a community of his own, what's to worry about a few bullies? Telling him that he might only get teased more for wearing this or that might only encourage him to do it more. He won't be accepted by these bullies, so he's just going to go nuts doing what he knows annoys them. Lord knows I would have, at his age.
posted by Sticherbeast at 1:42 PM on August 3, 2008
I don't know anything about raising kids or growing up as a gay person, but I do know that trying to mollify bullies is not only useless but soul killing. It sounds like he's dealing with it as well as he can - the best you can do is to be there to listen. Some people are never going to be mainstream, it's just not in them, and better to let them find their own way to move through the world than to try and stuff them into a mold.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 1:43 PM on August 3, 2008
posted by The Light Fantastic at 1:43 PM on August 3, 2008
Have you talked with the school yet? You may want to see what policies they have in place to deal with bullying and if they have done anything already with regards to your son. If he's being picked on outside of school, it's really getting out of hand.
posted by Weebot at 1:51 PM on August 3, 2008
posted by Weebot at 1:51 PM on August 3, 2008
I don't have the kind of direct experience you're looking for, but here's a couple of questions and a related thought: Do you live in a place that has a readily observable "out" population? And does your son seem pretty socially savvy?
I ask because, assuming your instincts are right, it's possible that he's fumbling with his identity and choosing means of behavior and dress that he thinks are associated with being gay . . . as a way of establishing his identity, and perhaps expressing it.
The reason I ask how savvy he is is that he may (a) overstate how significant those behaviors are to his identity, or (b) misunderstand how related his behaviors and dress are to the bullying. Teens are, in my experience, extremely superficial and conformist in their tendencies; I'd wager that some tweaks could, in fact, change your son's experience, and that he may be resisting them because of a false sense that they are inherent to his sexual identity. Even as I'd applaud him for being who he wants to be, I think he may be wrong as to how unavoidable his treatment is.
This is quite apart from what you should do about it. My own sense is that intervention is very dangerous, both for your relation with him and for his own treatment. I read a story quite recently about someone who was bullied mercilessly after his mother intervened to help ward off lower-level bullying. It's sickening.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 1:52 PM on August 3, 2008
I ask because, assuming your instincts are right, it's possible that he's fumbling with his identity and choosing means of behavior and dress that he thinks are associated with being gay . . . as a way of establishing his identity, and perhaps expressing it.
The reason I ask how savvy he is is that he may (a) overstate how significant those behaviors are to his identity, or (b) misunderstand how related his behaviors and dress are to the bullying. Teens are, in my experience, extremely superficial and conformist in their tendencies; I'd wager that some tweaks could, in fact, change your son's experience, and that he may be resisting them because of a false sense that they are inherent to his sexual identity. Even as I'd applaud him for being who he wants to be, I think he may be wrong as to how unavoidable his treatment is.
This is quite apart from what you should do about it. My own sense is that intervention is very dangerous, both for your relation with him and for his own treatment. I read a story quite recently about someone who was bullied mercilessly after his mother intervened to help ward off lower-level bullying. It's sickening.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 1:52 PM on August 3, 2008
I was a stubborn kid who stood out on purpose and was bullied at times. My parents let me make my own decisions -- for which I am grateful, despite the down sides. Looking back the only thing I might have wished differently would have been more information/insight about social realities. E.g. (for me) not everyone has the same abilities or perspections -- develop some patience, tolerance. Washing one's hair is important to social acceptance. Pick your battles. Stuff like that. It might not have mattered -- maybe I couldn't have taken in those ideas then.
One of my own kids now is very flamboyant, albeit in San Francisco. For about a year he essentially cross-dressed. I didn't try to change him, but did encourage him to be careful about being targeted for crime, unwanted attention. Honestly, he probably understood those risks far more than I did. After his cross-dressing phase, he changed again, and now dresses like a boy (albeit a very femme-y boy).
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 1:55 PM on August 3, 2008
One of my own kids now is very flamboyant, albeit in San Francisco. For about a year he essentially cross-dressed. I didn't try to change him, but did encourage him to be careful about being targeted for crime, unwanted attention. Honestly, he probably understood those risks far more than I did. After his cross-dressing phase, he changed again, and now dresses like a boy (albeit a very femme-y boy).
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 1:55 PM on August 3, 2008
"He finally said to me that people were going to pick on him no matter what he does, so he's going to do what he wants."
Wow. Good for him. If he can handle being picked on, then he can handle it. And, it seems he's comfortable talking to you so it things get bad and he needs help perhaps he woudl find a way to let you know.
As his mom, I think you are expected to question his fashion choices.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 1:58 PM on August 3, 2008
Wow. Good for him. If he can handle being picked on, then he can handle it. And, it seems he's comfortable talking to you so it things get bad and he needs help perhaps he woudl find a way to let you know.
As his mom, I think you are expected to question his fashion choices.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 1:58 PM on August 3, 2008
I was picked on constantly because I was overweight, and because I didn't like to wear jeans but regular pants. One day they ran out of things to make fun of and decided to make fun of my eyebrows.
Kids are often little brats and they'll pick on others over the dumbest things. What was worse was that the teachers in my very-small-town school were worse gossips and liars than the kids. (I am friends with a woman who teaches at my old school today, and she confirms this fact. She won't even eat lunch with them, they're all so stuck in the high school mentality.) To make a very long story short, one teacher (who later quit because she had a lot of problems), decided to start a rumor that I was arrested for looking in her windows. She admitted starting the rumor to my mom and the principal. Almost all of the teachers avoided me or treated me as badly as the kids after that.
One of the best days I had was at 23, when I worked at Wal-Mart, the kid who had picked on me worst of all back in school showed up, and talked to me, saying how good it was to see me and asked how I was doing. Most kids grow out of it. Some people (like those teachers) stay that way for life.
School was HELL for me, and I was severely depressed and suicidal. Don't worry about whether your son's gay... he'll figure it out and let you know. Don't worry about the clothes he wears (you can't predict accurately what kids will make fun of - they'll find something to tease about if they want to). Worry about his emotional health. If you think he could be depressed or suicidal, get him a good therapist. If you rely on the school therapist, be sure to check out his/her reputation and credentials - my school's therapist was as bad as the teachers. She mistakenly thought that kids could be like adults - therefore, if she told all the other kids about my problems, they'd be understanding and treat me better. This was a confidentiality violation as well as making me be teased for whole new, private issues. If you attend a church (which it sounds like you might not, but for anyone else reading), please also be careful about sending your child for church counseling - no matter how many "Christian counseling" courses a pastor has taken, it is not a replacement for a Master's degree therapist's license. Also, a church is likely to tell your child that being gay is sinful and wrong and result in him needing a lot more therapy down the road.
Should you intervene? Well, my mom spent many hours in the principal's office over the kids. Principal: "we can't watch them all, all the time." My mom: "That's why you catch one and make an example out of them." She spent time there over teachers, over the school counselor (whom she finally had to tell to butt the hell out and never contact me again), and over the kids some more. She threatened lawsuits, she threatened contacting the press. I can't say all her attempts at intervention made anything better, but I'm glad to know that she was behind me. Make sure your son knows you're behind him, but I'm not sure intervening is the best thing today... basically, due to what Clyde Mnestra mentioned.
All in all, it took me 2 1/2 years of therapy after I got out of school (part of which was dealing with the abusive church-cult I'd fallen victim to), and I have a lot better self-esteem now. I'm still angry over my school experience, and you couldn't pay me to send my children to that school, but I'm okay now. Be supportive and if your kid needs therapy, get it. But do know that kids are kids and there are endless streams of things to make fun of.
posted by IndigoRain at 2:12 PM on August 3, 2008 [1 favorite]
Kids are often little brats and they'll pick on others over the dumbest things. What was worse was that the teachers in my very-small-town school were worse gossips and liars than the kids. (I am friends with a woman who teaches at my old school today, and she confirms this fact. She won't even eat lunch with them, they're all so stuck in the high school mentality.) To make a very long story short, one teacher (who later quit because she had a lot of problems), decided to start a rumor that I was arrested for looking in her windows. She admitted starting the rumor to my mom and the principal. Almost all of the teachers avoided me or treated me as badly as the kids after that.
One of the best days I had was at 23, when I worked at Wal-Mart, the kid who had picked on me worst of all back in school showed up, and talked to me, saying how good it was to see me and asked how I was doing. Most kids grow out of it. Some people (like those teachers) stay that way for life.
School was HELL for me, and I was severely depressed and suicidal. Don't worry about whether your son's gay... he'll figure it out and let you know. Don't worry about the clothes he wears (you can't predict accurately what kids will make fun of - they'll find something to tease about if they want to). Worry about his emotional health. If you think he could be depressed or suicidal, get him a good therapist. If you rely on the school therapist, be sure to check out his/her reputation and credentials - my school's therapist was as bad as the teachers. She mistakenly thought that kids could be like adults - therefore, if she told all the other kids about my problems, they'd be understanding and treat me better. This was a confidentiality violation as well as making me be teased for whole new, private issues. If you attend a church (which it sounds like you might not, but for anyone else reading), please also be careful about sending your child for church counseling - no matter how many "Christian counseling" courses a pastor has taken, it is not a replacement for a Master's degree therapist's license. Also, a church is likely to tell your child that being gay is sinful and wrong and result in him needing a lot more therapy down the road.
Should you intervene? Well, my mom spent many hours in the principal's office over the kids. Principal: "we can't watch them all, all the time." My mom: "That's why you catch one and make an example out of them." She spent time there over teachers, over the school counselor (whom she finally had to tell to butt the hell out and never contact me again), and over the kids some more. She threatened lawsuits, she threatened contacting the press. I can't say all her attempts at intervention made anything better, but I'm glad to know that she was behind me. Make sure your son knows you're behind him, but I'm not sure intervening is the best thing today... basically, due to what Clyde Mnestra mentioned.
All in all, it took me 2 1/2 years of therapy after I got out of school (part of which was dealing with the abusive church-cult I'd fallen victim to), and I have a lot better self-esteem now. I'm still angry over my school experience, and you couldn't pay me to send my children to that school, but I'm okay now. Be supportive and if your kid needs therapy, get it. But do know that kids are kids and there are endless streams of things to make fun of.
posted by IndigoRain at 2:12 PM on August 3, 2008 [1 favorite]
Trying on different identities to see what fits and what doesn't is what you're supposed to do at this age. I think just reminding him (in your words and actions) that you are always in his corner regardless of his clothing, flamboyant actions, or ways of dealing with bullying is about all you can and should do.
About the only thing I would be watchful for is a serious change in attitude that might show he has resorted to unhealthy ways of dealing with these things.
This comes from someone who wishes her parents would have noticed these things were happening at all, let alone offered support. So you're one up on many parents.
posted by SuperSquirrel at 2:14 PM on August 3, 2008
About the only thing I would be watchful for is a serious change in attitude that might show he has resorted to unhealthy ways of dealing with these things.
This comes from someone who wishes her parents would have noticed these things were happening at all, let alone offered support. So you're one up on many parents.
posted by SuperSquirrel at 2:14 PM on August 3, 2008
If you think his behaviour is obnoxious or inappropriate, you should let him know, but not in a dictatorial way ("don't do that") - more like "You know that kind of thing can come over as obnoxious to some people?"
I don't think there's much you can do about bullying except:
1. Remain supportive and
2. Encourage him to report it to teachers/authorities if it's crossing the line and it seems necessary. I recognise the validity of the comments above about clumsy interventions, but if nothing's ever reported it will never get better. It's their job to address this kind of problem, and they shouldn't be let off on the grounds that they'll probably be crap, even if they'll probably be crap. And they might not be.
The other thing is, remain supportive. So many parents alienate their teenage children by trying to dictate appropriate behaviour, for the best of reasons, and then have to repair their relationship ten or twenty years later. At 15, you have to start moving to a less authoritarian mode, especially with someone like your son who sounds thoughtful and determined. When your kids stop being cute little things and become smelly spotty argumentative teens it's easy to stop smiling at them (I know) but they still want it really.
posted by Phanx at 2:29 PM on August 3, 2008
I don't think there's much you can do about bullying except:
1. Remain supportive and
2. Encourage him to report it to teachers/authorities if it's crossing the line and it seems necessary. I recognise the validity of the comments above about clumsy interventions, but if nothing's ever reported it will never get better. It's their job to address this kind of problem, and they shouldn't be let off on the grounds that they'll probably be crap, even if they'll probably be crap. And they might not be.
The other thing is, remain supportive. So many parents alienate their teenage children by trying to dictate appropriate behaviour, for the best of reasons, and then have to repair their relationship ten or twenty years later. At 15, you have to start moving to a less authoritarian mode, especially with someone like your son who sounds thoughtful and determined. When your kids stop being cute little things and become smelly spotty argumentative teens it's easy to stop smiling at them (I know) but they still want it really.
posted by Phanx at 2:29 PM on August 3, 2008
When I was a teen my mom suspected I was gay because I was a somewhat effeminate aesthete, and she engaged me in lots of "you can tell me anything" lectures and twisted my arm into getting the occasional AIDS test. It was irritating to have to constantly tell her I wasn't gay, and kind of sweet when it turned out my sister was the big ol' homo of the family. These days I'm still assumed to be gay by people who don't yet know me, but I think she's finally decided that I'm just bisexual, if only because that opens up the possibility that she'll have grandchildren.
It's a very good thing that your son is willing to ignore the jeers of his classmates when deciding what to wear. He's fifteen and has already figured out that the kids in his school are a pack of fools who will peak at eighteen and fade away into television addiction and obscurity. As long as he remembers that, he'll go far.
posted by bunnytricks at 2:31 PM on August 3, 2008
It's a very good thing that your son is willing to ignore the jeers of his classmates when deciding what to wear. He's fifteen and has already figured out that the kids in his school are a pack of fools who will peak at eighteen and fade away into television addiction and obscurity. As long as he remembers that, he'll go far.
posted by bunnytricks at 2:31 PM on August 3, 2008
For instance, he wants to wear certain clothes. I tell him that the ribbing will get worse if he wears this or that. Should I be doing that?
This is a tough message to give. It may send the message that you conditionally condone or agree with the torment the other boys are giving your son, even if that's not how you intend it.
I was troubled with teasing for a while when I was a kid. The ringleader was a sort of dull-witted preacher's son with a unibrow, and it was not brutal, just the kind of thing that makes a kid sad after school. I told Mom about it and she found the 13-year-old kid after school one day, picked him up by the collar, slammed him into a fence, and told him "Leave my kid alone." Years later - after we were out of college - I met him at a reunion and he told me that she had slammed him so hard that his teeth crashed together. He was afraid she was going to beat or kill him. I view this as sort of the opposite of the parents who do nothing at all. At the time I was mortified; frankly it's a little embarrassing in retrospect too.
Looking back on this, it was a fraught series of actions and all the ramifactions are too complicated to explain in this space. It had reverberations all over the place. The bottom line was that kids quit teasing me because they were afraid of my mother. They went after other targets where an angry adult was not likely to immediately assert herself; one of these kids eventually had his jaw broken when the bullying turned physical.
Overall it was a good thing for me as a young kid who needed to find his own sense of identity. But a lot of negative things could have flowed from it, and some probably did where I couldn't see them. It was a potent lesson too, and maybe not the right lesson to teach an adolescent.
These things are very hard. Keep being involved. Let your kid know that your unconditional love is never in question. Do your best.
posted by ikkyu2 at 2:35 PM on August 3, 2008
This is a tough message to give. It may send the message that you conditionally condone or agree with the torment the other boys are giving your son, even if that's not how you intend it.
I was troubled with teasing for a while when I was a kid. The ringleader was a sort of dull-witted preacher's son with a unibrow, and it was not brutal, just the kind of thing that makes a kid sad after school. I told Mom about it and she found the 13-year-old kid after school one day, picked him up by the collar, slammed him into a fence, and told him "Leave my kid alone." Years later - after we were out of college - I met him at a reunion and he told me that she had slammed him so hard that his teeth crashed together. He was afraid she was going to beat or kill him. I view this as sort of the opposite of the parents who do nothing at all. At the time I was mortified; frankly it's a little embarrassing in retrospect too.
Looking back on this, it was a fraught series of actions and all the ramifactions are too complicated to explain in this space. It had reverberations all over the place. The bottom line was that kids quit teasing me because they were afraid of my mother. They went after other targets where an angry adult was not likely to immediately assert herself; one of these kids eventually had his jaw broken when the bullying turned physical.
Overall it was a good thing for me as a young kid who needed to find his own sense of identity. But a lot of negative things could have flowed from it, and some probably did where I couldn't see them. It was a potent lesson too, and maybe not the right lesson to teach an adolescent.
These things are very hard. Keep being involved. Let your kid know that your unconditional love is never in question. Do your best.
posted by ikkyu2 at 2:35 PM on August 3, 2008
I worry that I don't parent this child well.
You (a) noticed that this was going on, (b) care that it's going on, and (c) are going out of your way to find a way to help him without making things worse. I'd say you're doing pretty well.
He is pretty obnoxious and acts inappropriately often. For instance, he's loud when he shouldn't be, acts flamboyantly when the situation calls for acting demurely.
Is the ADHD you mention being treated/managed? It sounds like a lot of stuff is more ADHD than the struggles of a gay bullying victim.
I'm telling you this first, so you will know that oftentimes, he sets himself up for trouble.
While I know the point you're making (he makes no attempt to mitigate potential problems), I can't let this go by without adding that no one 'deserves' bullying, regardless of whether or not they could stop it.
I want to support him regarding his sexual orientation, but I'm not sure how to do it. We live in the middle of the Bible Belt, and most teens that I know are gay don't come out openly.I think they know their life would be too hard.
This almost reminds me of yesterday's question, in that I'm not sure there's an easy solution here: you want to communicate that you'll accept him just the same if he's gay, but you don't necessarily want to say that. I have a straight friend whose mom sat him down one day and told him that she knew he was gay, and didn't mind, but wished he'd be more open with her about it. He said it was very, very awkward for a long time.
As you say, your environment doesn't help, though moving to San Francisco or Provincetown is probably a ludicrous solution to the problem. I think you want to maybe drop hints that, while you live in an area that's very conservative, you're not in favor of the discrimination that sometimes comes. (Again, don't be too obvious!) Things like a new story in which a person is beat up for their orientation ("Can you believe that it's the 21st century and people are still so cruel?!"), or overheard rumors of so-and-so being gay ("I don't know why people make such a big deal out of those things... I guess maybe they want to get it off their chest, but it's not as if civilized people would think any less of them?") Err, tread carefully on that last one, as there's a definite semi-prejudice amongst some who get 'angry' when people come out, considering it "broadcasting" their sexuality.
It's definitely easier said than done, especially as it needs to be subtle, but the general idea here is to set up a supportive environment where he knows you'll accept him. (Coming out to parents can be the hardest.)
He finally said to me that people were going to pick on him no matter what he does, so he's going to do what he wants... For instance, he wants to wear certain clothes. I tell him that the ribbing will get worse if he wears this or that. Should I be doing that?
I'm going to agree with the others and say I'm impressed by this. While you might encourage him to 'tone it down' to try to avoid some of the flak, I think it might be best to encourage him to be himself. I think it also comes down to how he takes your advice—my dad still, to this day, gives me advice like, "It might rain, don't forget an umbrella," or, "Don't you think you want a coat?" I take these things as relentless nagging, and thus resent the advice. (And frequently communicate such.) OTOH, most normal people, if someone suggested bringing the umbrella because it's going to rain, would be thankful for the advice. It all comes down to how the listener perceives it: legitimately helpful versus relentless nagging. If he seems appreciative of your advice about things that will get him bullied/picked on, by all means keep at it, but otherwise, I'd encourage him to be himself. (Within reason, of course: as others said, when his behavior goes from "flamboyantly" expressing himself to being inappropriate, that's a separate issue. You didn't elaborate on the "inappropriate" part, but being supportive has nothing to do with allowing him to get away with breaking rules, of course.)
His life outside the home is sometimes a living hell and I don't know the best way to help him.
I'm definitely going to second whoever said that you should talk to the school. Not so much a tattle-tale way, but in a, "How bad does it seem to you? Do you have any advice?" sort of way. It definitely depends on the scope of things. It sounds to me as if he may have gay / gay-friendly friends, but maybe I'm reading too much into it. That will be a huge benefit, I think.
However, it's no secret that being gay can still lead to physical violence. I haven't nearly enough information to determine whether it's a big risk, but don't let those of us saying, "Let him be himself" make you think that you're out of line to put your foot down and say, "I love you very much, but I can't allow you to [whatever]. I love you too much to see you get hurt."
I am of the school of thought that I can't do anything about his sexual orientation, so I'm not trying to change him.
You're already doing a lot more than many, many people out there. :)
posted by fogster at 2:37 PM on August 3, 2008
You (a) noticed that this was going on, (b) care that it's going on, and (c) are going out of your way to find a way to help him without making things worse. I'd say you're doing pretty well.
He is pretty obnoxious and acts inappropriately often. For instance, he's loud when he shouldn't be, acts flamboyantly when the situation calls for acting demurely.
Is the ADHD you mention being treated/managed? It sounds like a lot of stuff is more ADHD than the struggles of a gay bullying victim.
I'm telling you this first, so you will know that oftentimes, he sets himself up for trouble.
While I know the point you're making (he makes no attempt to mitigate potential problems), I can't let this go by without adding that no one 'deserves' bullying, regardless of whether or not they could stop it.
I want to support him regarding his sexual orientation, but I'm not sure how to do it. We live in the middle of the Bible Belt, and most teens that I know are gay don't come out openly.I think they know their life would be too hard.
This almost reminds me of yesterday's question, in that I'm not sure there's an easy solution here: you want to communicate that you'll accept him just the same if he's gay, but you don't necessarily want to say that. I have a straight friend whose mom sat him down one day and told him that she knew he was gay, and didn't mind, but wished he'd be more open with her about it. He said it was very, very awkward for a long time.
As you say, your environment doesn't help, though moving to San Francisco or Provincetown is probably a ludicrous solution to the problem. I think you want to maybe drop hints that, while you live in an area that's very conservative, you're not in favor of the discrimination that sometimes comes. (Again, don't be too obvious!) Things like a new story in which a person is beat up for their orientation ("Can you believe that it's the 21st century and people are still so cruel?!"), or overheard rumors of so-and-so being gay ("I don't know why people make such a big deal out of those things... I guess maybe they want to get it off their chest, but it's not as if civilized people would think any less of them?") Err, tread carefully on that last one, as there's a definite semi-prejudice amongst some who get 'angry' when people come out, considering it "broadcasting" their sexuality.
It's definitely easier said than done, especially as it needs to be subtle, but the general idea here is to set up a supportive environment where he knows you'll accept him. (Coming out to parents can be the hardest.)
He finally said to me that people were going to pick on him no matter what he does, so he's going to do what he wants... For instance, he wants to wear certain clothes. I tell him that the ribbing will get worse if he wears this or that. Should I be doing that?
I'm going to agree with the others and say I'm impressed by this. While you might encourage him to 'tone it down' to try to avoid some of the flak, I think it might be best to encourage him to be himself. I think it also comes down to how he takes your advice—my dad still, to this day, gives me advice like, "It might rain, don't forget an umbrella," or, "Don't you think you want a coat?" I take these things as relentless nagging, and thus resent the advice. (And frequently communicate such.) OTOH, most normal people, if someone suggested bringing the umbrella because it's going to rain, would be thankful for the advice. It all comes down to how the listener perceives it: legitimately helpful versus relentless nagging. If he seems appreciative of your advice about things that will get him bullied/picked on, by all means keep at it, but otherwise, I'd encourage him to be himself. (Within reason, of course: as others said, when his behavior goes from "flamboyantly" expressing himself to being inappropriate, that's a separate issue. You didn't elaborate on the "inappropriate" part, but being supportive has nothing to do with allowing him to get away with breaking rules, of course.)
His life outside the home is sometimes a living hell and I don't know the best way to help him.
I'm definitely going to second whoever said that you should talk to the school. Not so much a tattle-tale way, but in a, "How bad does it seem to you? Do you have any advice?" sort of way. It definitely depends on the scope of things. It sounds to me as if he may have gay / gay-friendly friends, but maybe I'm reading too much into it. That will be a huge benefit, I think.
However, it's no secret that being gay can still lead to physical violence. I haven't nearly enough information to determine whether it's a big risk, but don't let those of us saying, "Let him be himself" make you think that you're out of line to put your foot down and say, "I love you very much, but I can't allow you to [whatever]. I love you too much to see you get hurt."
I am of the school of thought that I can't do anything about his sexual orientation, so I'm not trying to change him.
You're already doing a lot more than many, many people out there. :)
posted by fogster at 2:37 PM on August 3, 2008
As someone who used to volunteer with gay kids, let me tell you that the description of your son reminds me of many kids I saw at the group. Some of them were gay and some were straight and some were "drama kids" which meant they could be just about any orientation and all orientations at once. Some kids changed orientations from minute to minute. They're trying stuff out, and figuring out how they fit into the world.
The kids I got to know were (and are) fearless, fierce, and determined in a way that only young people can truly be. In contrast, the parents who brought them to group were usually confused, concerned, and terrified for their kids.
There's a lot to be afraid about; violence, bullying, substance abuse. Kids who are gay run some higher risks because of how the world views them, and that should not be ignored. But his job is to be himself, and it's your job to love him without trying to make him something he is not.
What I'm saying is that you're right to be concerned for your kid but you are can't make his choices for him and you can't protect him from the lousiness of other people or the future hurts he will experience.
Tell him you love exactly who he is. And tell him that high school does not last forever. I really wish an adult had told me both those things.
posted by answergrape at 2:42 PM on August 3, 2008 [2 favorites]
The kids I got to know were (and are) fearless, fierce, and determined in a way that only young people can truly be. In contrast, the parents who brought them to group were usually confused, concerned, and terrified for their kids.
There's a lot to be afraid about; violence, bullying, substance abuse. Kids who are gay run some higher risks because of how the world views them, and that should not be ignored. But his job is to be himself, and it's your job to love him without trying to make him something he is not.
What I'm saying is that you're right to be concerned for your kid but you are can't make his choices for him and you can't protect him from the lousiness of other people or the future hurts he will experience.
Tell him you love exactly who he is. And tell him that high school does not last forever. I really wish an adult had told me both those things.
posted by answergrape at 2:42 PM on August 3, 2008 [2 favorites]
I tell him that the ribbing will get worse if he wears this or that. Should I be doing that?
HELL NO! From his point of view, that would mean either that you agree his choices are ridiculous, and are patronizing him, or that you're wrong, just don't know what you're talking about, and can't relate to his problems.
Don't worry about bullies. There are plenty of people in the world (little baby Ambrosia Voyeurs in his drama group, for one) that will stick by him and love him and stand up for his fruity little thang just for being special.
Standing out for being yourself is hard, and WORTH IT. *snaps*
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 2:43 PM on August 3, 2008 [2 favorites]
HELL NO! From his point of view, that would mean either that you agree his choices are ridiculous, and are patronizing him, or that you're wrong, just don't know what you're talking about, and can't relate to his problems.
Don't worry about bullies. There are plenty of people in the world (little baby Ambrosia Voyeurs in his drama group, for one) that will stick by him and love him and stand up for his fruity little thang just for being special.
Standing out for being yourself is hard, and WORTH IT. *snaps*
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 2:43 PM on August 3, 2008 [2 favorites]
He finally said to me that people were going to pick on him no matter what he does, so he's going to do what he wants.
He's right. It won't stop his feelings from being hurt, but it will at least allow him to be himself. He's a brave kid.
I find myself telling him to settle down all the time. For instance, he wants to wear certain clothes. I tell him that the ribbing will get worse if he wears this or that. Should I be doing that?
I don't really think so. I mean, if you think he looks silly, you're welcome to say so (I'm sure he'll take that with a grain of salt). In an average day for him, there is no "worse" or "better" -- because bullying is administered arbitrarily, and because even if none occurs he still constantly has to carry around the awareness that it could happen at any moment. He could wear all the right clothes, act the "right" way, and still wind up facing the cruelest taunts. That's why his approach makes so much sense.
However, there needs to be a firm precedent set at the school in which violence and harassment will not be tolerated. Harassment is harassment even if he's NOT gay. I never told my parents how bad the bullying was because I didn't want to seem weak, and I didn't want to out myself. If you feel your child is particularly at risk, you need to buddy up to someone at that school -- a counselor, a teacher, an administrator -- who is willing to advocate for your son and make sure that school policy is correctly enforced. Perhaps asking your son would help. "I know you're going to do things your own way, but you can't always control how people will react. If something serious ever happens, who should I talk to?" Feeling this out now (instead of when an incident occurs) is the best way to get an honest answer.
However, remember that an overprotective presence can be worse. A friend of mine suffered an incident in middle school in which one day when he was absent, the principal came into his music class and shamed them for making fun of my friend. "He may act effeminate," said well-meaning principal, "but you have to treat him with respect." My friend was mortified when news got back to him, and the students were delighted that his "effeminacy" was now officially a topic of public debate.
I think you'll do best to simply remind him as often as possible how all this will be left behind eventually. It's also a really great way for you to stress the importance of choosing a good school or vocation that he can flee to when this is all over, setting himself up for a huge reward for his years of hardship.
If he *does* come out, he may not come out to you. Try not to feel hurt. He's figuring this out as he goes. If he does come out to you, ask him whether there is a gay-straight alliance sort of club at his school or in the community that he's interested in checking out. Ask him if he needs to talk to a counselor. Ask him if he thinks YOU should talk to a counselor (or just go anyway, you don't have to tell him why). Also, try not to make it a huge deal; by the time he talks to you, he'll already most likely be talking candidly to some of his friends. This will be your opportunity to talk to him with candor as an adult. Relax and dive in. Discover together.
It's possible for you to attend PFLAG meetings in your area (if they exist) without telling your son. You are facing issues that the parent of a gay child has to deal with, even if you don't know for sure whether your son is gay.
posted by [NOT HERMITOSIS-IST] at 2:47 PM on August 3, 2008 [3 favorites]
He's right. It won't stop his feelings from being hurt, but it will at least allow him to be himself. He's a brave kid.
I find myself telling him to settle down all the time. For instance, he wants to wear certain clothes. I tell him that the ribbing will get worse if he wears this or that. Should I be doing that?
I don't really think so. I mean, if you think he looks silly, you're welcome to say so (I'm sure he'll take that with a grain of salt). In an average day for him, there is no "worse" or "better" -- because bullying is administered arbitrarily, and because even if none occurs he still constantly has to carry around the awareness that it could happen at any moment. He could wear all the right clothes, act the "right" way, and still wind up facing the cruelest taunts. That's why his approach makes so much sense.
However, there needs to be a firm precedent set at the school in which violence and harassment will not be tolerated. Harassment is harassment even if he's NOT gay. I never told my parents how bad the bullying was because I didn't want to seem weak, and I didn't want to out myself. If you feel your child is particularly at risk, you need to buddy up to someone at that school -- a counselor, a teacher, an administrator -- who is willing to advocate for your son and make sure that school policy is correctly enforced. Perhaps asking your son would help. "I know you're going to do things your own way, but you can't always control how people will react. If something serious ever happens, who should I talk to?" Feeling this out now (instead of when an incident occurs) is the best way to get an honest answer.
However, remember that an overprotective presence can be worse. A friend of mine suffered an incident in middle school in which one day when he was absent, the principal came into his music class and shamed them for making fun of my friend. "He may act effeminate," said well-meaning principal, "but you have to treat him with respect." My friend was mortified when news got back to him, and the students were delighted that his "effeminacy" was now officially a topic of public debate.
I think you'll do best to simply remind him as often as possible how all this will be left behind eventually. It's also a really great way for you to stress the importance of choosing a good school or vocation that he can flee to when this is all over, setting himself up for a huge reward for his years of hardship.
If he *does* come out, he may not come out to you. Try not to feel hurt. He's figuring this out as he goes. If he does come out to you, ask him whether there is a gay-straight alliance sort of club at his school or in the community that he's interested in checking out. Ask him if he needs to talk to a counselor. Ask him if he thinks YOU should talk to a counselor (or just go anyway, you don't have to tell him why). Also, try not to make it a huge deal; by the time he talks to you, he'll already most likely be talking candidly to some of his friends. This will be your opportunity to talk to him with candor as an adult. Relax and dive in. Discover together.
It's possible for you to attend PFLAG meetings in your area (if they exist) without telling your son. You are facing issues that the parent of a gay child has to deal with, even if you don't know for sure whether your son is gay.
posted by [NOT HERMITOSIS-IST] at 2:47 PM on August 3, 2008 [3 favorites]
Can you afford/find a theater camp that he can attend? His participation in theater sounds like a very positive development. Perhaps by enabling this you can help him find a niche that he will thrive in.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 2:53 PM on August 3, 2008
posted by The Light Fantastic at 2:53 PM on August 3, 2008
He finally said to me that people were going to pick on him no matter what he does, so he's going to do what he wants.
Nthing that that's a pretty great attitude, if only so you notice you should be proud of that.
For instance, he wants to wear certain clothes. I tell him that the ribbing will get worse if he wears this or that. Should I be doing that?
Sure, but then respect his decision as above. If it's deliberate, then he's facing up to the problem and that sounds fine too. That is, if "That might get you picked on today" results in a "Yup, probably." then... again, be proud of that kid. Impressive.
posted by rokusan at 3:19 PM on August 3, 2008
Nthing that that's a pretty great attitude, if only so you notice you should be proud of that.
For instance, he wants to wear certain clothes. I tell him that the ribbing will get worse if he wears this or that. Should I be doing that?
Sure, but then respect his decision as above. If it's deliberate, then he's facing up to the problem and that sounds fine too. That is, if "That might get you picked on today" results in a "Yup, probably." then... again, be proud of that kid. Impressive.
posted by rokusan at 3:19 PM on August 3, 2008
I remember when I was in high school; there were times when I dressed in denim jackets with heavy metal stickers, and times when I dressed in t-shirts and button-ups without the buttons done, and a time when I dressed flamboyantly.
During the flamboyant times, I enjoyed colorful clothes, and hanging out with similar folks, many of whom were gay (although I didn't necessarily realize how many were at the time.) Great friendships, great times. Once for a halloween party I was with a guy friend who was gay, and who was dressed to the nines (albeit as a girl) -- I wasn't, but I was walking with him and we were goofing around, and I strutted along with him. Almost immediately some other kids driving by started screaming at us and threatening us, and we got the fuck out of dodge (being heavily outnumbered.)
The thing is, I'm straight, albeit slender and apt to be mistaken for gay; in fact, that tendency has gotten me laid more times than I'd care to admit, I think. Being 15 is about learning who you are and what kind of crap you'll put up with, and part of that is pushing the envelope on your own behavior to see what you can get away with before someone pounds your head in or your parents disown you.
So ultimately he's either just exploring this, or he's going to stay this way -- if bullying doesn't stop him from doing it, you certainly don't have a chance. Support him, but otherwise stay out of it, unless it's positive...like the first time I went out and bought a pair of Doc Martens, thinking my mother would be shocked, but instead she said "It's about time you went out and bought a decent pair of shoes."
posted by davejay at 3:56 PM on August 3, 2008
During the flamboyant times, I enjoyed colorful clothes, and hanging out with similar folks, many of whom were gay (although I didn't necessarily realize how many were at the time.) Great friendships, great times. Once for a halloween party I was with a guy friend who was gay, and who was dressed to the nines (albeit as a girl) -- I wasn't, but I was walking with him and we were goofing around, and I strutted along with him. Almost immediately some other kids driving by started screaming at us and threatening us, and we got the fuck out of dodge (being heavily outnumbered.)
The thing is, I'm straight, albeit slender and apt to be mistaken for gay; in fact, that tendency has gotten me laid more times than I'd care to admit, I think. Being 15 is about learning who you are and what kind of crap you'll put up with, and part of that is pushing the envelope on your own behavior to see what you can get away with before someone pounds your head in or your parents disown you.
So ultimately he's either just exploring this, or he's going to stay this way -- if bullying doesn't stop him from doing it, you certainly don't have a chance. Support him, but otherwise stay out of it, unless it's positive...like the first time I went out and bought a pair of Doc Martens, thinking my mother would be shocked, but instead she said "It's about time you went out and bought a decent pair of shoes."
posted by davejay at 3:56 PM on August 3, 2008
25-year-old gay guy here. Didn't come out until I was 20, didn't really figure it out until I was 19. So, uh, yeah - totally normal to not know what's up with your sexuality until "later"; just because society has sexualized everyone and everything older than 9 doesn't mean anyone knows what's up with themselves until way later.
And I also grew up in a religiously conservative, wealthy area in California and moved to the hippies-dancing-in-the-redwoods end of the state for college. Lots of people who didn't fit the Official Definition of what it means to be A Man or A Woman went there, and the university actively encouraged all sorts of non-Bible Belt-appropriate shenanigans like running around naked in the rain and many-letter-acronymed organizations and groups for all kinds - ALL - of people. I just thought I'd mention that so you'd know that there are places in the country where you truly can be whatever you want to be. I had no idea I'd be going there until the college application chips fell where they did in spring of my senior year, and I realized I'd probably be pretty happy there, and I'm sooooo glad it worked out.
Also, I just wanted to say that the fact that you're located in a religiously-active area doesn't mean that there are only the more conservative variants of Christianity around. A big part of the bullying and pressure to be like everyone else, I think, comes from the very, for lack of a better term, all-inclusive aspects of participation in Christianity, especially the modern "megachurch" style, with youth group and a skate park and a cafe and rock concerts and all that. "How," a teenager might think, "can I reject this and not participate when a) it's where everyone else hangs out and b) there are negative social consequences to not attending?" A huge number of my fellow high-school students attended one particular church and were never free to do much of anything on weeknights or over vacations because their whole social world was at church, on mission trips, at conferences, in choral groups and rock bands. So consider the fact that your son's peers may very well not have friends who are terribly different from them, especially if they're not part of the same faith community.
One last thing: I think it would be wise to help your son start to look at ways to leave the community/area for college, work, or whatever he wants to do after the end of high school. No need to necessarily hit up a school counselor (though perhaps he'd see them as part of "The Machine?"), but perhaps his drama/theater teacher can recommend some summer theater camps, or some colleges you can go tour on long weekends. Help him get his driver's license and his own transportation if it's something your family can afford. Many community colleges allow local high school students to enroll in classes - often for free/very little money! - that they can't take at their high school, as long as the principal signs off; I discovered the joy of the Renaissance this way my senior year, worked hard, loved being treated as an adult, and got an A in my class! I totally took pride in being a good student outside of the confines of the social universe of high school, where I was a small star in the constellation of smart kids. And being liberated from the pressures and the ridiculousness of the whole high school milieu was, for me, the best part about going to college and being able to say "O World! This Is Who I Am!", as an adult, and know no one was going to "pray for me" or beat me up until I recanted or anything like that.
Overall (wow, that turned out long!), knowing that you tacitly support his choices to leave and grow and transcend all the high school malarky will help him see past the everyday indignities of the place, mellow out, and pursue what he wants to do without all the static.
You're a good mom. Kudos.
posted by mdonley at 4:30 PM on August 3, 2008
And I also grew up in a religiously conservative, wealthy area in California and moved to the hippies-dancing-in-the-redwoods end of the state for college. Lots of people who didn't fit the Official Definition of what it means to be A Man or A Woman went there, and the university actively encouraged all sorts of non-Bible Belt-appropriate shenanigans like running around naked in the rain and many-letter-acronymed organizations and groups for all kinds - ALL - of people. I just thought I'd mention that so you'd know that there are places in the country where you truly can be whatever you want to be. I had no idea I'd be going there until the college application chips fell where they did in spring of my senior year, and I realized I'd probably be pretty happy there, and I'm sooooo glad it worked out.
Also, I just wanted to say that the fact that you're located in a religiously-active area doesn't mean that there are only the more conservative variants of Christianity around. A big part of the bullying and pressure to be like everyone else, I think, comes from the very, for lack of a better term, all-inclusive aspects of participation in Christianity, especially the modern "megachurch" style, with youth group and a skate park and a cafe and rock concerts and all that. "How," a teenager might think, "can I reject this and not participate when a) it's where everyone else hangs out and b) there are negative social consequences to not attending?" A huge number of my fellow high-school students attended one particular church and were never free to do much of anything on weeknights or over vacations because their whole social world was at church, on mission trips, at conferences, in choral groups and rock bands. So consider the fact that your son's peers may very well not have friends who are terribly different from them, especially if they're not part of the same faith community.
One last thing: I think it would be wise to help your son start to look at ways to leave the community/area for college, work, or whatever he wants to do after the end of high school. No need to necessarily hit up a school counselor (though perhaps he'd see them as part of "The Machine?"), but perhaps his drama/theater teacher can recommend some summer theater camps, or some colleges you can go tour on long weekends. Help him get his driver's license and his own transportation if it's something your family can afford. Many community colleges allow local high school students to enroll in classes - often for free/very little money! - that they can't take at their high school, as long as the principal signs off; I discovered the joy of the Renaissance this way my senior year, worked hard, loved being treated as an adult, and got an A in my class! I totally took pride in being a good student outside of the confines of the social universe of high school, where I was a small star in the constellation of smart kids. And being liberated from the pressures and the ridiculousness of the whole high school milieu was, for me, the best part about going to college and being able to say "O World! This Is Who I Am!", as an adult, and know no one was going to "pray for me" or beat me up until I recanted or anything like that.
Overall (wow, that turned out long!), knowing that you tacitly support his choices to leave and grow and transcend all the high school malarky will help him see past the everyday indignities of the place, mellow out, and pursue what he wants to do without all the static.
You're a good mom. Kudos.
posted by mdonley at 4:30 PM on August 3, 2008
If you think he's in any physical danger, sign him up for self-defense or martial art lessons.
posted by orange swan at 5:28 PM on August 3, 2008
posted by orange swan at 5:28 PM on August 3, 2008
"He finally said to me that people were going to pick on him no matter what he does, so he's going to do what he wants."
this is what a man does. fifteen is very early for this kind of courage. i'd keep an eye on the boy. he seems like he may be very special indeed. unfortunately, it's very hard being the parent of a hero. sux for you, i guess.
posted by stubby phillips at 5:28 PM on August 3, 2008
this is what a man does. fifteen is very early for this kind of courage. i'd keep an eye on the boy. he seems like he may be very special indeed. unfortunately, it's very hard being the parent of a hero. sux for you, i guess.
posted by stubby phillips at 5:28 PM on August 3, 2008
no offense intended.
posted by stubby phillips at 5:56 PM on August 3, 2008
posted by stubby phillips at 5:56 PM on August 3, 2008
I think there is something to what everyone has said about "they're going to pick on me whatever I do," thing, however, sometimes that's a mask for "I don't have social skills, I will never have them, so I give up. I can't change because I'm fixed in this way of being because 'i was born this way' and I'm scared to try anything different because I might not be good at it anyway."
If he's got good friends in drama, this is probably not the problem-- but if he doesn't have many close friends, it could be.
That was my own experience. i'm not gay, but was bullied a lot for a long time-- in part because I did not want to adapt anything I did because I thought everyone should adapt to me and I was obnoxious sometimes as a result. I thought unspoken social rules that didn't make sense were unjust and that I should know everything easily the way I did with academic stuff. I didn't realize you could learn to be better at social stuff; I thought you were either good at it or not and that's the way it was.
It's a good idea to tell kids that they can be whatever they want to be and that if they are doing something that isn't getting good results, even if they are scared, they can try something different. that doesn't mean that a geek has to become a jock-- but it does mean that if a geek wants to exercise, they should realize that lack of practice can look like lack of ability and that everyone doesn't have to be the best at everything-- but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try and have fun, just not being the best and that's fine.
and if you feel like you aren't kind enough or a good enough "people person" or feel like you will "never have friends" it doesn't mean you can't develop those skills by trying. the brain becomes what it does most-- and practice matters a lot. So, if he wants to develop better friendships and other kids are seeing him as obnoxious because he's not reading social cues well, he could learn to do differently and possibly be less of a target and that's not "compromising" his identity but learning to be skilled socially, which is different. it's not a defeat to try being different, it's not giving in to the bullies, it's learning something new.
posted by Maias at 6:24 PM on August 3, 2008 [2 favorites]
Let him be himself no matter what, he knows that he's out there. Love the hell out of him. Take an interest in everything he does. Go to all his performances. Make him know that you're on board no matter what. Be proud of him. You can't protect him from being teased. But, you can make sure that you have a great relationship with him now and as he becomes an adult, that will help him to be strong. You and your family need to be on his side, always. If you're not super okay with the whole gay thing that's okay, it's probably a little foreign to you. Take steps to educate yourself and familiarize yourself with gay culture. Watch some gay movies, read some pamphlets. Your local PFLAG can help. Don't say anything homophobic. Ever. Support gay rights.
If he is gay and he gets down about it, you need to tell him that the world is full of idiots and that everything changes, just hang in there, this period in his life will pass. Also, talk to him about safe sex and STDs. Give him condoms and lube.
Best of luck. You're awesome for asking this!
posted by Craig at 6:59 PM on August 3, 2008
If he is gay and he gets down about it, you need to tell him that the world is full of idiots and that everything changes, just hang in there, this period in his life will pass. Also, talk to him about safe sex and STDs. Give him condoms and lube.
Best of luck. You're awesome for asking this!
posted by Craig at 6:59 PM on August 3, 2008
I'm going to weigh back in, in what I hope is constructive disagreement with some of what's being said. I'm quoting Ambrosia for convenience, but don't mean to single her out.
I tell him that the ribbing will get worse if he wears this or that. Should I be doing that?
HELL NO! From his point of view, that would mean either that you agree his choices are ridiculous, and are patronizing him, or that you're wrong, just don't know what you're talking about, and can't relate to his problems.
I strongly disagree that these are the only outcomes. It is reasonable for parents to give their advice; 9 times out of 10 children feel free to reject it outright, but a number of times circle back later to adopt it as their own. I do not for a moment think that it has to be put in a patronizing way, and being wrong is a risk that every bit of parental advice takes. Trying but failing to relate to a problem is one way a parent can fail; keeping silent is another; it's not a given which is better here.
Don't worry about bullies. There are plenty of people in the world (little baby Ambrosia Voyeurs in his drama group, for one) that will stick by him and love him and stand up for his fruity little thang just for being special.
With respect, I think this is badly out of touch. Sometimes I think that the concern with bullying in today's school is exaggerating an age-old problem. Then I read about someone committing suicide, or being paralyzed because he's been beaten, and I think that turning a blind eye would be a tragic mistake. Perhaps the drama club has his back, but I wouldn't bet on it.
Standing out for being yourself is hard, and WORTH IT. *snaps*
You go, girl! Eh, not so much.
This is something that a lot of people have mentioned, along with some well-deserved praise for his attitude, and I see that side. At the same time, teenagers -- especially ones under stress and feeling socially oppressed -- have some pretty well known deficiencies of perspective and judgment. At one point I felt that wearing T-shirts with obscenities on them was part of my thing, and they stuck with me regardless of whether I was interviewing for a job or not. Trivial example, but the point is that identity-forging can be crude and have a lot of fits and starts, rather than being cast in stone, and some parts are more essential than others.
For clarity's sake, I am not suggesting that Mom tell her son to lock part of himself away. And I agree she should applaud him for standing up for himself. I just think it's appropriate for her to think of ways that objective can be promoted without putting his happiness and well-being at risk . . . so that his life outside the home's never a "living hell."
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 7:04 PM on August 3, 2008
I tell him that the ribbing will get worse if he wears this or that. Should I be doing that?
HELL NO! From his point of view, that would mean either that you agree his choices are ridiculous, and are patronizing him, or that you're wrong, just don't know what you're talking about, and can't relate to his problems.
I strongly disagree that these are the only outcomes. It is reasonable for parents to give their advice; 9 times out of 10 children feel free to reject it outright, but a number of times circle back later to adopt it as their own. I do not for a moment think that it has to be put in a patronizing way, and being wrong is a risk that every bit of parental advice takes. Trying but failing to relate to a problem is one way a parent can fail; keeping silent is another; it's not a given which is better here.
Don't worry about bullies. There are plenty of people in the world (little baby Ambrosia Voyeurs in his drama group, for one) that will stick by him and love him and stand up for his fruity little thang just for being special.
With respect, I think this is badly out of touch. Sometimes I think that the concern with bullying in today's school is exaggerating an age-old problem. Then I read about someone committing suicide, or being paralyzed because he's been beaten, and I think that turning a blind eye would be a tragic mistake. Perhaps the drama club has his back, but I wouldn't bet on it.
Standing out for being yourself is hard, and WORTH IT. *snaps*
You go, girl! Eh, not so much.
This is something that a lot of people have mentioned, along with some well-deserved praise for his attitude, and I see that side. At the same time, teenagers -- especially ones under stress and feeling socially oppressed -- have some pretty well known deficiencies of perspective and judgment. At one point I felt that wearing T-shirts with obscenities on them was part of my thing, and they stuck with me regardless of whether I was interviewing for a job or not. Trivial example, but the point is that identity-forging can be crude and have a lot of fits and starts, rather than being cast in stone, and some parts are more essential than others.
For clarity's sake, I am not suggesting that Mom tell her son to lock part of himself away. And I agree she should applaud him for standing up for himself. I just think it's appropriate for her to think of ways that objective can be promoted without putting his happiness and well-being at risk . . . so that his life outside the home's never a "living hell."
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 7:04 PM on August 3, 2008
On re-reading what I just wrote, I should clarify: I am not addressing his sexual orientation, or suggesting that's malleable. I am only addressing what the mother describes as obnoxious, loud, flamboyant behavior and (unspecified) clothing tastes. At some point, I suppose, these latter things are intrinsic to someone, and they bear some relation to sexual orientation, but in my experience they more clearly relate to a willingness to conform . . . as to which, for better or for worse, most of us compromise.
And re. Craig's remark, I am supposing that the boy's problems go beyond being "teased."
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 7:11 PM on August 3, 2008
And re. Craig's remark, I am supposing that the boy's problems go beyond being "teased."
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 7:11 PM on August 3, 2008
Do you have to live in the Bible Belt? Is there any possibility he could go to school elsewhere? Going to a boarding school with cool kids who don't make fun of him could be life-changing, and there is a lot of financial aid available. For example, Exeter and St. Paul's completely cover tuition for kids whose families make less than 75k/yr. I realize moving or sending him away to school is a big step, but a lot of your social identity gets forged in high school. If it were my kid I would want to find a way to get him out of there.
posted by selfmedicating at 7:33 PM on August 3, 2008
posted by selfmedicating at 7:33 PM on August 3, 2008
I have a friend whose family sent him an angsty letter telling him they love him even though he's gay, and they'll support him no matter what.
This friend is really really not gay.
I think you don't know if your son is gay or not. Also, from what I'm reading, his sexual orientation is likely irrelevant.
posted by small_ruminant at 9:18 PM on August 3, 2008 [1 favorite]
This friend is really really not gay.
I think you don't know if your son is gay or not. Also, from what I'm reading, his sexual orientation is likely irrelevant.
posted by small_ruminant at 9:18 PM on August 3, 2008 [1 favorite]
If your son is gay or not, it sounds like the best course is supporting his decisions. It may not seem worth it to you to be teased for behaving/dressing as he does, but it seems like he's willing to deal with it. The flip side of this is your son obviously has a strong sense of himself and isn't going to bow to peer pressure---something I'm sure as a parent you find comforting.
Be sure he knows that you support his choices and that he can tell you anything. If he decides he is planning on coming out or wants help with the bullies, this will make you someone he really trusts.
posted by lacedback at 9:56 PM on August 3, 2008
Be sure he knows that you support his choices and that he can tell you anything. If he decides he is planning on coming out or wants help with the bullies, this will make you someone he really trusts.
posted by lacedback at 9:56 PM on August 3, 2008
I'm neither gay, nor a mother, though I've always had many close gay friends - beginning in high school... but I wanted to pipe up to say that I love mdonley's advice, and was feeling the urge to mention the same thing regarding universities before I saw his comment.
If it becomes a project for you, as a family, to start checking out the most promising schools, visit the ones you can, talk about the various options for curricula and social clubs, etc., he will understand that it's a big, big, world out there, and there are a lot of brightly lit spots in it where enlightened people value individuals and their differences, and conformity is not a goal. The more he can feel that he has one foot in that world, the better; the theater/choir activities are great, and focusing on all the excitement and opportunities available at a more liberal University will help him to feel a part of something greater, more thrilling and more complex than the tiny slice of existence that the small-minded bonehead bullies can manage to occupy. It should also encourage him to stay focused with schoolwork and grades when other things might get him down, since these efforts (in addition to his extracurricular activities) will be in aid of making that brave new world happen.
Good luck; you sound like a great mother to me!
posted by taz at 10:48 PM on August 3, 2008
If it becomes a project for you, as a family, to start checking out the most promising schools, visit the ones you can, talk about the various options for curricula and social clubs, etc., he will understand that it's a big, big, world out there, and there are a lot of brightly lit spots in it where enlightened people value individuals and their differences, and conformity is not a goal. The more he can feel that he has one foot in that world, the better; the theater/choir activities are great, and focusing on all the excitement and opportunities available at a more liberal University will help him to feel a part of something greater, more thrilling and more complex than the tiny slice of existence that the small-minded bonehead bullies can manage to occupy. It should also encourage him to stay focused with schoolwork and grades when other things might get him down, since these efforts (in addition to his extracurricular activities) will be in aid of making that brave new world happen.
Good luck; you sound like a great mother to me!
posted by taz at 10:48 PM on August 3, 2008
Support him. Let him know that no matter what happens, you're there for him. If he comes out to you, you're there for him. If he wants to run for President, you're there for him. If he wants to join the circus, you're still there for him. Let him know that he can come and tell you anything, and that you'll be fine with it.
Don't, whatever else you do, mention being gay ("that he can tell you anything [wink]"). If he is, he'll probably tell you sooner than later. He certainly sounds like he has a lot of guts. If he isn't, you're just going to freak him out. People stay in the closet for a reason - in there, they feel that they have some control over who knows and who doesn't. If you take that control away from them, it can be quite traumatic for them.
Has he actually complained to you that the bullying is a problem for him? If he has, have you asked him what he thinks would be an appropriate course of action?
I worry that I don't parent this child well. He is pretty obnoxious and acts inappropriately often. For instance, he's loud when he shouldn't be, acts flamboyantly when the situation calls for acting demurely.
He's a teenager. That's what they do. :) The fact that you're here answering the question shows that you care, and caring enough, is, in my experience, half of the battle.
posted by Solomon at 2:07 AM on August 4, 2008
Don't, whatever else you do, mention being gay ("that he can tell you anything [wink]"). If he is, he'll probably tell you sooner than later. He certainly sounds like he has a lot of guts. If he isn't, you're just going to freak him out. People stay in the closet for a reason - in there, they feel that they have some control over who knows and who doesn't. If you take that control away from them, it can be quite traumatic for them.
Has he actually complained to you that the bullying is a problem for him? If he has, have you asked him what he thinks would be an appropriate course of action?
I worry that I don't parent this child well. He is pretty obnoxious and acts inappropriately often. For instance, he's loud when he shouldn't be, acts flamboyantly when the situation calls for acting demurely.
He's a teenager. That's what they do. :) The fact that you're here answering the question shows that you care, and caring enough, is, in my experience, half of the battle.
posted by Solomon at 2:07 AM on August 4, 2008
The best way to show your son that you'd support him if he turns out to be gay is by showing that you support people in that lifestyle in general. It might be easier to take the political angle -- supporting same-sex marriage or talking about gay rights in the context of the upcoming election. The key is, if he sees that you see it as normal and acceptable, then if he is gay, then he will feel normal and accepted. And, if he isn't gay, hopefully he will follow your example and see homosexuality as normal and acceptable too. I'm not gay but I have taken a lot of my own paths in my life. I knew that my parents would be proud of me as a person even if I didn't enjoy traditional "success" because of the values they taught me...of loving people for themselves not for what they were or what they did, of expressing yourself honestly with others, of trying not to judge.
Oh, and in case you forgot middle school is the lowest pit of hell. High school, as I remember it, is sort of like the internet: suddenly you discover all these groups of people who have the same weird interests and goofy styles as you do, and you find groups you belong in. So most likely things will automatically be better in high school.
Is he on meds for his ADHD? Is he going to therapy? These are all crucial. He also needs to be parsing how people are reacting to him. It's not enough to say that he is different and that's why people are reacting badly. Looking back on my experiences in school I'm pretty sure I was 90%+ responsible for all of the crap that went down and the negative attention I got from others. He has to learn how to deal with other people: "Having ADHD means that other people are going to be angry at you."
Odds are very good that he doesn't realize that he's being obnoxious, or if he does he experiences it a more general "I'm a jerk and people get mad at me" kind of way rather than "If I do x, people react negatively in a y fashion". Make a pact with him: tell him you want him to grow up to be a responsible, mature, healthy, happy adult. You are willing to help observe his behavior and provide him feedback, and he needs to listen to it.
If it's not obvious by now, I had ADHD in high school. I got called "gay" all the time but that had nothing to do with the fact that people were genuinely annoyed by me because of my totally inappropriate ADHD-based behavior.
I'm straight btw, so if he really is gay and this defiant behavior really is caused exclusively by feeling frustrated and out of place, then my advice may not work. But I think it should
posted by Deathalicious at 2:24 AM on August 4, 2008
Oh, and in case you forgot middle school is the lowest pit of hell. High school, as I remember it, is sort of like the internet: suddenly you discover all these groups of people who have the same weird interests and goofy styles as you do, and you find groups you belong in. So most likely things will automatically be better in high school.
Is he on meds for his ADHD? Is he going to therapy? These are all crucial. He also needs to be parsing how people are reacting to him. It's not enough to say that he is different and that's why people are reacting badly. Looking back on my experiences in school I'm pretty sure I was 90%+ responsible for all of the crap that went down and the negative attention I got from others. He has to learn how to deal with other people: "Having ADHD means that other people are going to be angry at you."
Odds are very good that he doesn't realize that he's being obnoxious, or if he does he experiences it a more general "I'm a jerk and people get mad at me" kind of way rather than "If I do x, people react negatively in a y fashion". Make a pact with him: tell him you want him to grow up to be a responsible, mature, healthy, happy adult. You are willing to help observe his behavior and provide him feedback, and he needs to listen to it.
If it's not obvious by now, I had ADHD in high school. I got called "gay" all the time but that had nothing to do with the fact that people were genuinely annoyed by me because of my totally inappropriate ADHD-based behavior.
I'm straight btw, so if he really is gay and this defiant behavior really is caused exclusively by feeling frustrated and out of place, then my advice may not work. But I think it should
posted by Deathalicious at 2:24 AM on August 4, 2008
I've debated for an hour about whether to comment. I'm a 62-year-old lesbian and grew up in a very different world from the one your son lives in. But some things don't change: that age group is emotionally volatile; children one minute, adults the next. They believe they are immortal and that their actions will have only positive consequences. I suggest you read about the shooting of 15-year-old Lawrence "Larry" King by 14-year-old Brandon McInerney in Oxnard, California. Good luck!
posted by Carol Anne at 6:46 AM on August 4, 2008
posted by Carol Anne at 6:46 AM on August 4, 2008
44 year old gay guy here. I came out at 18, but was very much in the theater/drama crowd as a high schooler. Essentially, I think every gay person in a conservative environment has two choices - 1) be big, loud and out there, clearing a path for those that come after you or 2) hide as much as you can until you get to a safer, more gay friendly environment. It looks like (if he is gay) your son has chosen #1. My advice would be to support him in all his outrageousness. Help him make his outrageous outfits look fabulous. Are his choices truly inappropriate (in and of themselves) or does the inappropriateness come from the conservative environment? For example, there is nothing truly inappropriate about a boy in a dress. I see it all the time. (And, it is often lovely.) But, it may be go against the grain in a conservative environment. If this is what you mean by inappropriate, the best thing you could do is change your reactions so that you can be comfortable with whatever he is choosing to wear.
posted by hworth at 7:57 AM on August 4, 2008
posted by hworth at 7:57 AM on August 4, 2008
15 is a confusing time for anyone. Hold off on any ideas that he's gay for at least another 2-3 years, if not more. Seriously. Puberty can do wacky things, and he might not be too sure of himself. Unless he actually comes to you and says so, assume that he's heterosexual. That's what he'll expect you to do, anyway.
As for bullying, well, that's a long story with a lot of opinions. I grew up in the school of thought that you had to deflect bullying with fighting back, and winning. But, YMMV depending on a lot of factors I'm not aware of. (For the record, I rode out bullying Ghandi-style: I took what they dished out until we all grew out of it. It sucked, but I persevered my way to eventual victory.)
posted by Citrus at 9:15 AM on August 4, 2008
As for bullying, well, that's a long story with a lot of opinions. I grew up in the school of thought that you had to deflect bullying with fighting back, and winning. But, YMMV depending on a lot of factors I'm not aware of. (For the record, I rode out bullying Ghandi-style: I took what they dished out until we all grew out of it. It sucked, but I persevered my way to eventual victory.)
posted by Citrus at 9:15 AM on August 4, 2008
Definitely don't point out that certain outfits might lead to more ribbing. That condones the bullying and puts the blame on the victim. Not okay.
My younger daughter is 15 (well, for another week, anyway), and seems to be the nexus of her high school's LGBTQ crowd. There is a 15 year old boy in that crowd who is loud, obnoxious, flamboyant (his favorite t-shirt reads "Your boyfriend snores." I think it was funnier when it was mine.), hyperactive, funny, sweet, and totally himself. We live in the Bible Belt, too. He gets teased, but his friends are right there for him, just as AV said, and they empower him to take the crap with a grain of salt. I wish his parents would teach him better than to skip backwards down sidewalks without looking where he's going, eat food off others' plates without asking, talk louder than anyone else in the restaurant, and run and jump on people when a good hug would do, but his friends accept all of this about him and love him anyway. I'll bet your son's friends do, too. He's obviously brave and has a good head on his shoulders for his age.
posted by notashroom at 2:05 PM on August 4, 2008
My younger daughter is 15 (well, for another week, anyway), and seems to be the nexus of her high school's LGBTQ crowd. There is a 15 year old boy in that crowd who is loud, obnoxious, flamboyant (his favorite t-shirt reads "Your boyfriend snores." I think it was funnier when it was mine.), hyperactive, funny, sweet, and totally himself. We live in the Bible Belt, too. He gets teased, but his friends are right there for him, just as AV said, and they empower him to take the crap with a grain of salt. I wish his parents would teach him better than to skip backwards down sidewalks without looking where he's going, eat food off others' plates without asking, talk louder than anyone else in the restaurant, and run and jump on people when a good hug would do, but his friends accept all of this about him and love him anyway. I'll bet your son's friends do, too. He's obviously brave and has a good head on his shoulders for his age.
posted by notashroom at 2:05 PM on August 4, 2008
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1. Flamboyance =/= homosexuality. Correlation, sure, but your kid may just be a flamboyant theatre buff. Assuming more than that is a bad idea.
2. You need to sit down and have a talk about the behaviours you find obnoxious (since you didn't provide examples, i.e. screams in church, I can't tell you if it's actually obnoxious) and tell him you won't tolerate him acting like that. Don't say it's 'for his own good' or any other similar code word; say you won't put up with it.
3. I am not a parent, and have never dealt with bullying (I was weird, sure, but sufficiently weird that people just left me the heck alone), so I'll leave idea of how to deal with it to others. However, blaming his clothing (and whatever else) for the bullying might be counterproductive, and make it feel like even his own mom doesn't want to stand up for him.
posted by flibbertigibbet at 1:28 PM on August 3, 2008