Should I try to transfer to another university?

August 3, 2008 12:24 PM

Should I try to transfer to another university?

I'm currently attending Duquesne University for physics and math. I'm going into my sophomore year.

I'm really worried though about the lack of resources at this university, and also the fact that physics isn't really one of its primary majors, nor something it is known for. I want to go to grad school after I graduate, because i'd really like to get into research. For that reason, I am also looking into getting very involved in research as an undergrad. Duquesne doesn't have many resources when it comes to research. I think it might have 2 credits for research in one's senior year, but that's about it.

I'm also a little worried that when I try to go to grad school, they will judge me based partly on the undergrad university I went to, even if I do very well. I really think I have the potential to get into a very good university.

For those reasons, I am heavily considering transferring to another university. I'm not sure which yet, though am considering Carnegie Mellon, since it is so close and is a very good school.

Here are some of my stats:

• In high school, I graduated with around a 3.75 GPA
• I got 1970 on the new SAT's (1290 on the old). I think it was something like, 640 for verbal, 650 for math, 680 for written
• I got 670 on the math subject SAT's
• I have a 4.0 GPA at Duquesne
• I am in the honors college at Duquesne

The only thing I'm worried about is, I also took the Chemistry subject test in high school, and did horribly on it (400). I had absolutely no interest in Chemistry, and hadn't taken it for two years, but my physics class was a joke (horrible teacher) so I didn't think I could do very well on that. I don't know if CMU looks at this.

So the questions are:

1. Should I attempt to transfer to another university?
2. Would Carnegie Mellon be a good choice? If not, what would you recommend?

posted by Perpetual Seeker to education (30 answers total)

So the typical student doesn't engage in much, if any, research - is it possible that an extra-motivated student such as yourself arrange research on their own? Even if the university doesn't have many resources there must be some professors doing research who would like the idea of an interested undergrad helping out, especially if most of your peers are apathetic.

Other than that, transferring sounds like a good idea in your case since Duquesne doesn't seem to offer the resources you need to succeed. I don't know enough to say for sure anything beyond that, but I attend a university that really pushes undergrads to do research and I've constantly been told that doing so is an important distinguishing factor for grad schools.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 12:39 PM on August 3, 2008

I have had several friends transfer from second to first tier schools. They both had very good luck, and to top 10 schools. It is a lot of work, but seemed like it was less of a crapshoot than however the hell top schools pick incoming freshman.

In any case, they had near-4.00 GPA, scored poorly on their SAT (well poorly being a relative term, but below 750 on tests) and worked their asses off. They worked hard on getting glowing recommendation letters and networking with the right people. In fact they both had professors that went to the schools they wanted to attend, though I don't know if this was as big a factor as you might think.

Assume you'll lose credits in the transfer process and don't let this become a big issue. Forget about high school and whatever experience you had there. No one cares. Focus on what you have accomplished in college.
posted by geoff. at 12:43 PM on August 3, 2008

Oh and they cast a wide net of about 4-5 schools and had an 80% acceptance rate. That was far below the acceptance rate the first time around (and to the same schools!).
posted by geoff. at 12:44 PM on August 3, 2008

You can talk to the admissions department at CMU about your qualifications. You can just email them and say you are thinking about transferring because of your focus on research, and can they give you a sense of whether your credentials are good enough or if there's anything you could do to improve your application?

Your undergrad institution definitely matters for getting into grad school. It might not be make-or-break, and certainly it is possible to get into a good program coming from a less-known school if you do excellent work.

Do you have an advisor in your department who you could talk this over with? What options they might have for you, what advice they'd give about grad school and transferring etc, and what they think of your chances of doing well at a place like CMU?
posted by LobsterMitten at 12:46 PM on August 3, 2008

Solon and Thanks,

Yeah, i've thought of that, too. I'm not sure if there are many professors doing much research here, though. I mean it doesn't seem the ideal environment. It's pretty much a liberal arts school, I think. I will definitely be asking around this semester, though.

Yes, I have found out through other means that research is an important distinguishing factor. Duquesne doesn't even have a graduate program for physics, so I doubt they'd push it much themselves.

I just don't want to go to a school where the physics program is mostly an afterthought, and then try to get into a good grad school and have them wondering why I did that. OK so that might be harsh, but you get the point.
posted by Perpetual Seeker at 12:48 PM on August 3, 2008

Also, when you say you want to get into research, it is helpful to say roughly what areas of physics research you are interested in. (Might help people here give more specific advice)
posted by LobsterMitten at 12:48 PM on August 3, 2008

geoff,

That is encouraging. I thought my chances would be worse, from how those universities make it sound. They say that it is harder to transfer than just to try to get in as a freshman.

Well, I'd love to forget about high school, because I slacked off a bit in my sophomore and junior years, which is why my GPA is lower than I'd like it to be. But don't they take that into account?

I've been working really hard to turn over a new leaf in college, so that I could have far better chances than I did out of high school. Duquesne was like my last resource, because I couldn't get into the top school I wanted to get into.

LobsterMitten, that is a good idea, thank you.
posted by Perpetual Seeker at 12:54 PM on August 3, 2008

LobsterMitten,

Oh, yeah. Well, hard to tell yet, but I'm really interested in quantum theory. I think I would want to go into theoretical physics.
posted by Perpetual Seeker at 12:55 PM on August 3, 2008

# Should I attempt to transfer to another university?

From my grad school years, it seemed like people who graduated from Ivy League universities (and a handful of other schools, like Williams and Amherst, Stanford and Chicago, MIT and Caltech) have a lot of "cred" because of where they went to school. If I were you, I would try to transfer to one of those big names.

# Would Carnegie Mellon be a good choice? If not, what would you recommend?

CMU doesn't seem to be in quite that league. It seems more on par with good second-tier schools like Vanderbilt, Duke, Tufts, Washington U., etc.

All of which are great schools, but if you've got a 4.0, why not transfer into the absolute top-tier?
posted by jayder at 1:07 PM on August 3, 2008

jayder,

Yeah, true. And well the top schools are really what I want to get into, but I didn't know if I'd be able to.
posted by Perpetual Seeker at 1:11 PM on August 3, 2008

Don't forget about financial aid. At a certain point, paying more for your education is going to make transfering not worth the reputation boost.
posted by J.R. Benedict at 1:57 PM on August 3, 2008

If you want to get involved in research, and want to go to CMU, and CMU is really that close, you should see about getting involved in research there now. Even if, at this point, you have to do it on a volunteer basis, it will give you the foot-in-the-door needed for an in-house recommendation on your transfer application (or application to an even stronger school).
posted by whatzit at 1:58 PM on August 3, 2008

If grad school is what you want, then definitely transfer to a university with a strong physics program. Apply to several schools. Don't overlook the good state schools. CMU is generally regarded as an excellent university, but doesn't seem to be so big on physics. You might start looking here.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 1:59 PM on August 3, 2008

For what it's worth, Brandeis University has a very strong physics program, it's likely to be less difficult to get in there than at MIT or U Chicago (I imagine), and, anecdotally, I know someone who transferred to Brandeis out of a community college having nearly failed out of high school (community college gpa = 3.9).

My advice: at least apply. You can always decide not to transfer. Give yourself the option.
posted by prefpara at 2:04 PM on August 3, 2008

J.R. Benedict,

Very true. The cost of going to Duquesne is about $35,000. I don't think CMU is that much more? I'm not sure how much more other schools are.

whatzit, good idea. Thanks.

qxntpqbbbqxl: Oh, it's not very big on physics? Any recommendations, then? That list is for grad schools, but what about physics undergrad programs?
posted by Perpetual Seeker at 2:07 PM on August 3, 2008

prefpara, thank you for the recommendation. I will look into that.
posted by Perpetual Seeker at 2:08 PM on August 3, 2008

I participated in a physics research project as a computer science undergraduate at Carnegie Mellon. Carnegie Mellon is definitely very research-oriented in the whole science and engineering section, and I believe that you can find research projects to work on as long as you look for them.

There are some very good teachers (Helmut Vogel is one of my favorite teachers ever), and some less wonderful ones, as well. My lab partner from transistor frying^W^Welectronics went on to graduate school at MIT, and I know physics graduate students who came here from MIT. My friends also had their favorite math teachers, though they weren't always in agreement.

You will not be unusual at Carnegie Mellon, as a math-physics double major. People at CMU push themselves too hard--not all, of course, but quite a few.
posted by that girl at 2:46 PM on August 3, 2008

that girl,

Thank you; that is very encouraging!

so is CMU good for physics then? qxntpqbbbqxl said it was not big on physics.

Further, does it seem I would be able to get in?

I think, if I read the transfer application correctly, that they said you shouldn't try to apply to anywhere else if you want to try to transfer there. So, I have to have my mind rather made up before I try.

It seems the best of all worlds though. No farther away than Duquesne is, a pretty good school, and hopefully impressive enough to get into a good grad school.
posted by Perpetual Seeker at 3:09 PM on August 3, 2008

That is encouraging. I thought my chances would be worse, from how those universities make it sound. They say that it is harder to transfer than just to try to get in as a freshman.

@perpetual: I did a transfer 'up', from Tulane to Cornell. 　Transferring to some elite schools is almost impossible (Harvard, Columbia) for example. They take like 3-8%. 　Transferring to others is definetly less so. Upenn and Cornell, i know - take something like 25-35%.
posted by waylaid at 5:05 PM on August 3, 2008

Whether or not you transfer, you ought to find out more about Research Experiences for Undergraduates (REU) -- these are 6-8 week summer programs where you conduct research under the direct supervision of a professor. There are dozens of these in physics alone. In my field (mathematics) these programs are the very best way to get a taste of what research is like and to build a relationship with a faculty member who can write a well-informed recommendation letter for you for grad school.

Grad schools do accept students from smaller schools with more limited programs; but you're right to feel it's not an ideal springboard for a scientific career. If you love it at Duquesne, I'd tell you to stay there, but do an REU and take courses at CMU. But it sounds like you don't have any strong feelings for the place -- so move on!

If you're open to leaving Pittsburgh, have you considered UC-Berkeley? It's a world-class research institution on par with any of those named, but it's also a gigantic state school which is significantly easier to get into than Harvard, Stanford, MIT, Chicago, etc. (I'm not sure how I'd compare it to CMU in that respect, but there is surely a richer physics research environment there than at CMU.)
posted by escabeche at 5:10 PM on August 3, 2008

escabeche,

Wow, i've never heard of REU. I will definitely look into that!

Duquesne's decent, but no I have no strong feelings for the place.

UC-Berkeley sounds like an interesting idea. I will look this stuff up, but do you know if it is very expensive, and how selective it is? I'm open to going anywhere I need to go.
posted by Perpetual Seeker at 6:08 PM on August 3, 2008

UC Berkely is pretty hard to get into as an out of state student. You might have a better chance at another top (private) university.
posted by waylaid at 7:30 PM on August 3, 2008

I think you should transfer and look at schools with highly rated grad program in Phy. If you want to do R1 for grad, do R1 for undergrad.
posted by k8t at 12:16 AM on August 4, 2008

I'm not sure about your chances of transferring in to CMU, or about it's reputation in Physics. The physics website has this page for people interested in undergrad to visit the physics department. I would ask these people point blank about reputation and where students go to graduate school, they should be happy to boast about all of the places their students have gone, and you have nothing to lose by asking them.

REUs are probably a great idea for you, too, if you're interested in research.
posted by that girl at 5:45 AM on August 4, 2008

CMU's response was rather unhelpful and nonspecific. Basically no more information than I could get on the web site.

The question right now is, are they pretty well known for their physics program?

Also, still taking suggestions for other universities to try. Location is no matter, but cost, well, I'd like to keep it under $50,000 a year, unless they are quite generous with financial aid.
posted by Perpetual Seeker at 3:33 PM on August 4, 2008

If you don't get good answers here, you should be able to find a college rating book at the local library. These should have rankings by program/area; the librarians should be able to help you find the kind of book that can help with a starting list.

Another option is US News rankings of PhD programs in physics. Any school in the top 50 of that list is going to have good resources for you. Maybe start there, and using tuition and location, narrow down to 5 schools that you want to think more seriously about?
posted by LobsterMitten at 4:19 PM on August 4, 2008

Here's another list of colleges, ranked by how many physics PhDs they produce.
posted by LobsterMitten at 4:22 PM on August 4, 2008

Oh, I didn't notice there were several pages of that listing. I thought only the top 25 were listed.

Well, well, CMU is #30. Not bad. OK, it scores it as 29, but it is the 30th university listed.

This is going to take some research. I need a place with good disability services as well, because I'm blind so accessibility is a big issue.

Thanks for the link.
posted by Perpetual Seeker at 6:45 PM on August 4, 2008

Um, ok, what about Cornell? It doesn't look ridiculously selective, and I think I could afford it. Their physics program looks pretty good, and they seem to have a lot of opportunities for research.

That's possibly my pick out of the top 10. I really like the look of Stanford, but they look, well, ridiculously selective.

As for universities ranked between 1020, I've not heard of most of them, except for Yale (which I associate with law), University of Pennsylvania, and University of Michigan.

Obviously there's a sharp decline somewhere in the list around 20, because Penn State is in the low 20's, and I certainly don't regard that as a very reputable school. Maybe it's different for graduate school, though.

So right now I'm kind of looking at Cornell (if that's not out of my reach), University of Pennsylvania, and CMU. I'd like to find two more.

Maybe Purdue. A friend of mine goes there and seems to like it.
posted by Perpetual Seeker at 7:24 PM on August 4, 2008

I've been looking at admissions stats for various universities. Cornell doesn't seem nearly as selective as the other Ivy League schools, and seems actually affordable, more so than CMU, if the data are correct.

right now, I favor Cornell, because they look like they have one of the best physics programs, I might have a chance at getting in, they are only about $45,000 or so per year (better than CMU's $52,000), they seem generous with grants, and they have Delta Chi. Also, the campus seems to be in a nice area, from what I hear. I'm not much for being in the middle of the city.

I may try for Stanford just as my "it's a longshot but I'll be psyched if I am accepted" university.

After that, CMU is probably next on the list. they are a bit expensive, but hopefully they would be generous with grants, and I could get more loans, or else apply for more scholarships. they seem highly respected for physics, and are not too far away from home.

After that, I'm not sure. University of Pennsylvania seems to have a good program, but it doesn't seem to be one of their primary majors. I ran into the same thing at Duquesne; everyone assumes I'm a pharmacy major because I go there.

Purdue doesn't seem very selective (about 78% acceptance), yet they seem to be at least near the top of the list. I'm undecided about that. They seem at least to be a step down from the others? The advantage is that they are only about $32,000 per year.

University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign seems to be highly ranked. The price for out-of-state students is comparable to what I'm paying now, but I'm not so sure if they're very good about grants. They claim to have one of the best disability services, which is important for me. they aren't very selective, either (about 71% acceptance I think).

What do you think? Any other suggestions? Are there any of these I shouldn't try for? What is the reputation of Purdue, anyway?
posted by Perpetual Seeker at 7:49 AM on August 6, 2008