How to ask for a divorce after 26 years?

July 19, 2008 11:30 PM

How to ask for a divorce after 26 years of marriage? I want to do it in a way that causes as little pain as possible, and makes room for as much constructive problem-solving as possible.

We got married when we were 28. After 4 months of dating, she gave me an ultimatum: marry me or I'll leave you. I liked her ok, but I was not in love with her. Still, I said yes, out of fear and insecurity more than anything else. I remember thinking at the time: If it doesn't work out, there's always divorce. Ha.

We had two kids. They brought us together, sort of, for a while. Now the kids are 16 and 17. I stuck around long enough to see them through adolescence. Many friends told me that was a mistake, that I should have just left. Be that as it may, here we are, and the time to leave is approaching.

She and I have never communicated well. At work and with friends, I can generally handle communicating on sensitive topics pretty effectively. With her, it has always been an immense struggle, and some years ago I gave up. Essentially, now, we don't even attempt to communicate.

She's against seeing a marriage counselor. I suggested it years ago, and she rejected the idea. She doesn't trust or respect them; she has contempt for everything to do with "psychology." She got her degree in science and considers herself to have a scientific world-view - no room for the "fuzziness" of psychology.

She has no friends. She worked at a couple of low-paying jobs several years ago, but there was always someone that she couldn't get along with, this always made her miserable (she couldn't draw boundaries or stand up for herself), and then she would quit. She hasn't worked for almost 20 years.

She was abused by her father when she was a child. She sees the world as ready to attack her. As a result, I have never found a way to disagree with her, or even to express a mildly different opinion, without causing her to put up such strong defenses that communication stops.

For my own sanity, I must leave this marriage. With the kids at the age they are, soon there will no longer be any reason for me to stay. At the same time, I want to do it in a way that causes the least hurt for all concerned.

I know that she wants to leave the marriage also - she has said, in the presence of the kids even, how much she is looking forward to the day when she no longer has to "serve" any of us. I called her on that once - was she saying that she wanted a divorce? She back-pedalled - no, she was just upset. That's a typical pattern: as soon as any of this submerged unhappiness starts to surface, she pretends it isn't there.

Is it even possible to communicate effectively under circumstances like this? We've developed a decades-long habit of not communicating, except about trivia. She will be understandably worried about money, which would make communication difficult for anyone.

I guess I could take the approach "Don't agonize over it so much. Just say it and get it over with." The thing I don't like about that is that it completely gives up on any attempt at coming to a mutual understanding. What I'd like to get across is, "Neither one of us is happy in this marriage. We should end it in a way that leaves both of us in the best position to move on. Let's talk about how to do that."

I have no idea how to get this message to her. I can't envision even how to begin a conversation on this topic without her going nearly into shock. She does indeed want the marriage to end, maybe almost as much as I do, but she's scared to death of what might happen (obviously, otherwise she would have left already).

Has anyone ever been in a situation like this? Or have advice on how to handle it? Any thoughts would be appreciated. For anyone who would prefer to talk about this over email, I set up an account at [e-mail].

posted by anonymous to human relations (23 comments total)

It sounds to me like she's never going to come to a mutual understanding. That said, if you tryt o couch it in scientific terms, as opposed to emotional ones, she might understand it better.

Have you considered seeing a marriage counsellor on your own, to get their advice?
posted by Solomon at 12:16 AM on July 20, 2008

Gee, this seems relatively easy. Just say to her what you wrote in the same words:

"Neither one of us is happy in this marriage. We should end it in a way that leaves both of us in the best position to move on. Let's talk about how to do that."

If she flips out or refuses to partake in the discussion because the overt unhappiness has suddenly emerged, let her be. Then file for divorce the next day, return home and let her know what you've done.

It's nice that you'd like to plan things out, discuss them (etc), but - taking you at your word - you've just described a person who will never do go along with this. Additionally, she sounds like a very controlling person in a passive-aggressive way:

"I have never found a way to disagree with her, or even to express a mildly different opinion, without causing her to put up such strong defenses that communication stops."

The sanest and fairest way out of this would be to give her one chance to do it "right," and then refuse to enter into games if it doesn't work. You sound like a reasonable fellow who's been living under a grey cloud so long that you don't know any other way. I know it won't be pleasant, but the best way is to approach it first like a gentleman, and then to simply move on if that doesn't work.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 12:23 AM on July 20, 2008 [5 favorites has favorites]

Deeply unenviable, to say the least.

Your writing, the way you put the things you've said, indicates that you have a deep concern for her feelings and her welfare. That's the real point of love. You might say you don't love her, but what you say suggests otherwise. I think you have no idea how to get the message to her because, as you say, you're deeply out of practice at putting across contrary ideas to her. You've never insisted. You have the right to insist on things, from time to time, and this, of all things, is the kind of thing you have the right to insist on absolutely.

I'd venture a guess that making less fundamental changes, ie, getting her to do things that might help alleviate the problems that are driving you to divorce, is in the category of "contrary ideas", so it seems that due to not being in for a penny, so to speak, you're feeling that you must go in for a pound. Is there anything short of a divorce, that would make your life (not your marriage) work for you again? Can you be "separated under one roof" (although it seems you largely are)?

There is no way to get a divorce without hurting people. That is a simple fact of life. You will hurt her, you will hurt yourself, you will hurt your kids, your extended family, and your friends. It's a question of whether you have the right to do that (and you do), and of whether, by not doing it, you would cause greater hurt.

Since the two of you don't talk ... how do you know for sure what she does or doesn't want? You've avoided conversations on the topic for years. Since you're going to hurt her anyway, you might as well try to have a conversation. Write it all down: all your doubts and fears and frustrations, your concerns for her, your concerns for yourself. Find a time when you are alone together. Give it to her, and absolutely insist that she read it all the way to the end, neither of you to comment until she has finished. Then wait and let her think about it. Then ask her what she wants to do.

If she freaks out, stand your ground. Wait 'til she finishes crying or yelling, and tell her to keep reading. She does owe you that much, after 26 years of marriage. Reading and considering one's spouse's heartfelt message is an entirely reasonable request.

If you're absolutely sure she'll freak out, talk to your kids first. They have a right to know, they know the two of you better than anyone else, and at 16 or 17 they're old enough to be taken seriously and for their father to ask them, on such an occasion, to take him seriously and give mature consideration to what he has to say. But I'd only advise that if your wife will freak out, and your kids can be of help. Give them a chance to be adults about it.

All the best.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 12:32 AM on July 20, 2008 [4 favorites has favorites]

Man you are so nice. My ex-wife went out of her way to do everything in the most painful way possible, even filing for divorce on the day I flew back from my Dad's funeral, and she didn't have any rational reason to leave let alone be so mean. You sound like a nice guy and you deserve to be happy, but bear in mind that the divorce itself will be very painful. If there is any way you can fix this, fix it, as the effort required to get to the other side is pretty fearsome.
posted by w0mbat at 12:33 AM on July 20, 2008

"... Has anyone ever been in a situation like this? Or have advice on how to handle it? ..."
posted by anonymous to human relations

IANAL, but I have been divorced. The majority of people getting divorced have communication problems, most so serious that effective negotiation of settlement and child custody responsibilities is impossible without third party assistance. That's what keeps legions of divorce lawyers, arbitrators, courts and family practice psychologists busy. If you haven't found a constructive way to resolve differences in 26 years, you can expect the divorce process to be adversarial.

And in a way, viewing the divorce process as adversarial from Day One is a good thing. In reality, taking steps to divorce your spouse is re-asserting your independence, and taking responsibility, entirely, for your own life. It's a first step in achieving independence, and creating a new life, and if you are respecting your own needs in doing so, it's hard to be in a mindset of putting your family first. So, the least ethically challenged way of doing this hard thing, is to look out for yourself, and have them look out for themselves. Each of you should have your own legal counsel, from the start.

In the U.S., if you don't have a beaucoup marital assets, or unique family health or welfare issues, property, alimony, custody and child support issues proceed fairly directly from a formulaic basis the court uses to split assets and assign future responsibilities. You can generally let the lawyers do any haggling over minutia, once you've filled out your financial forms, and served papers. If you or your spouse aren't unreasonable, things happen according to court schedule and procedure, and eventually, you're divorced.

The problem is, most folks do get unreasonable, somewhere in the process. That's why divorce attorneys often counsel clients to minimize contact during the process, and to route ALL communication through the attorneys. It's not a bad strategy, and divorce lawyers know that eventually, when one or both parties is worn out, compromise will happen. You may start out willing to give your wife the house, the car, the savings account, 50% of your future earnings and retirement plan, if only you get your mother's serving silver back, but eventually, either you or she will get tired enough of arguing about that silver, that one of you will say "The hell with it." Attorneys wait for this, and at that point, get agreement to settlement documents that can be signed and presented to the court. Sometimes, the party who is most motivated to get the divorce over with will give a little more than absolutely necessary, but if you both have competent counsel, neither of you should be "taken" by the other, except by the costs of legal and court fees. In some courts, the judge will actually require each of you to attest that you are satisfied with the settlement you are agreeing, or otherwise the case goes to court trial, where the court settles the property and support issues by decision. You generally want to avoid that process, if you can.

Be generous. Put the welfare of your kids foremost, to the extent you can. Think about living frugally, and be prepared to get on with your life, alone. Anything that comes out of the process in excess of that, in terms of ongoing goodwill and concilation, is beyond your control or reasonable expectation.
posted by paulsc at 12:37 AM on July 20, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

IANAL, etc, nor do I have any experience whatsoever with divorce - but sometimes I wish my parents had split rather than slog through being married when they clearly had no desire to stay together (fighting all the time, etc).

So I wish you luck. And talk to your kids. I dunno, you've said nothing about fighting constantly with your wife, but your kids might feel the same way.
posted by Xany at 1:16 AM on July 20, 2008

I want to do it in a way that causes as little pain as possible

You cant mitigate this. And I'm guessing you mean little pain as possible- for me.

Slowly set up a alternative life- then leave.
posted by mattoxic at 1:32 AM on July 20, 2008

Some other points, I should have included above:

During the divorce process, you'll have a period of several months to more than a year, depending on your jurisdiction and the complexity of your settlement agreements, to get over your old life, and start your new life. Don't shortchange this transition. Some reflection over the passing of your marriage is in order, as is a "lessons learned" introspection. You'll probably find you lose a lot of old acquaintances and casual friends in the process, so if you are the type of guy that needs friends to help you talk out problems, plan accordingly; joining a men's group, or even a sports team, can be helpful. Most people also need to establish themselves as independent people again, financially and in terms of living arrangements, and perhaps get the emotional shock of being alone and entirely responsible for oneself again, over with.

So, don't complicate or shortchange that transition period process. It can be a good idea to avoid dating during the divorce, or starting other major new life projects, like changing careers, going back to school full time, etc. Divorce is huge life change, and you and your family will need time to process it all; jumping into new relationships or intensive activities is often a sign of avoidance of the transition process. But don't dwell on your divorce unduly, either. If you've been angry every day or nearly every day, for a long time, suddenly being in a situation where you don't have to be angry can be hugely disorienting. Some guys actually fall into a period of going back over their memories obsessively, finding old things to be angry about, anew! Don't be one of those guys. "Put down the duckie, if you want to play the saxophone."

Finding ways to remain or perhaps newly be constructively engaged in your children's lives can be a challenge, particularly for adolescents. If your spouse is being difficult, or even passive-aggressive, or provocative, you may need to work at keeping from being drawn into additional confrontation, or dramatic circumstances. You definitely need to avoid any additional legal or social complications while your divorce is pending. There is no mileage to be gained from playing those games, worth the cost and effort of doing so. And depending on your financial circumstances, and the interim custody arrangements, the costs and complications of divorce can have some impact on your kid's futures, too. More than one high school junior or senior has scaled back college plans in the wake of a divorce, if not for financial reasons, then as a means of providing emotional support for one parent or another, and that's a classic source of power dynamics in a divorce process.

If you've moved out, you might concentrate for a while on making your new abode a real home for yourself. Depending on your financial resources, you might even find that you have to live with roommate(s), or otherwise compromise on your expenses. You may have a lot of free time on your hands, or not. Some guys wind up needing a second job to pay for lawyers and other counselors, at least for a while. Those who have a lot of free time on their hands have to find ways to use it, and those who come out of divorce best, quickly learn to use any new found time or freedom very constructively, it seems to me.
posted by paulsc at 1:41 AM on July 20, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

Have a plan. Issue the ultimatum: marriage counselling or we're through. If she refuses counselling, act your plan.

This needs to include being VERY protective of your finances and you home. People have been known to strip marital assets from accounts at the merest whiff of divorce. You'll need somewhere to live, too, because people have been known to change locks, etc.

My point is that if she doesn't deal well with confrontation and bottles everything up, this may be the rocket launcher that lets the lid loose. Be prepared for this to escalate very quickly in deeply unpleasant ways, and be thankful for every day it doesn't.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:43 AM on July 20, 2008

Don't assume your wife wants the marriage to end. That will get you into trouble. Work from the supposition that however unhappy she is, the marriage and family provides a structure to her life that she's not prepared to live without, and that she'll be devastated, furious, bitter, and fight you every step of the way. Make your plans accordingly. If, in fact, she does take it better than this, then all the better, but you shouldn't count on that. It's pretty rare for both parties to be ready to admit a relationship is over at the same time.
posted by happyturtle at 2:51 AM on July 20, 2008 [4 favorites has favorites]

We got married when we were 28. After 4 months of dating, she gave me an ultimatum: marry me or I'll leave you. I liked her ok, but I was not in love with her. Still, I said yes, out of fear and insecurity more than anything else. I remember thinking at the time: If it doesn't work out, there's always divorce. Ha.

That was unfair to your wife from the start --- you chose to marry a woman you didn't love just to avoid the messiness of breaking up. You deserved better, and so did she. Did you recognize your young self in this recent thread?

She and I have never communicated well. ... it has always been an immense struggle, and some years ago I gave up. Essentially, now, we don't even attempt to communicate.

That's the crux of your problem. What are you doing to improve communication?

She's against seeing a marriage counselor. I suggested it years ago, and she rejected the idea.

Years ago? Have you brought it up since? Or have you gone to counseling on your own? What have you actively done to improve things?

She was abused by her father when she was a child. She sees the world as ready to attack her. As a result, I have never found a way to disagree with her, or even to express a mildly different opinion, without causing her to put up such strong defenses that communication stops.


Her issues are not the reason you have never found a way to disagree with her. Many people with a history of abuse are able to get past that victim mentality with the love and patient support of the people in their lives. Your wife doesn't have that. You don't love her. Do you really think she doesn't know that?

I know that she wants to leave the marriage also - she has said, in the presence of the kids even, how much she is looking forward to the day when she no longer has to "serve" any of us. I called her on that once - was she saying that she wanted a divorce? She back-pedalled - no, she was just upset. That's a typical pattern: as soon as any of this submerged unhappiness starts to surface, she pretends it isn't there.

Saying "I said that out of anger and I don't really mean it" is not the same as pretending it isn't there. That's what you want it to mean, so that you can say "she wants this marriage to end too." Which makes ending it not really your decision. Kind of like you didn't really choose to marry her and you didn't really choose to go-along-to-get-along for 26 years. You want all of it to be not your fault.

I guess I could take the approach "Don't agonize over it so much. Just say it and get it over with." The thing I don't like about that is that it completely gives up on any attempt at coming to a mutual understanding. What I'd like to get across is, "Neither one of us is happy in this marriage. We should end it in a way that leaves both of us in the best position to move on. Let's talk about how to do that."

No, you should own up to your decision to end the marriage. If you are honest, then what you should be trying to get across is "I am not happy in this marriage. I want to end it in a way that leaves both of us in the best position to move on. This is how I think we should do that."

I have no idea how to get this message to her. I can't envision even how to begin a conversation on this topic without her going nearly into shock. She does indeed want the marriage to end, maybe almost as much as I do, but she's scared to death of what might happen (obviously, otherwise she would have left already).

You don't know that, you really really don't know what she wants, because you do not communicate well. Couples that communicate very very well cannot read each other's minds. Couples that do not communicate absolutely do not know each other's fears/desires/motivations.

If you want to leave your wife, own up to that truth and leave your wife. If you want to communicate well and save your marriage, see a counselor/mediator and learn how to communicate well. If you want to communicate well so as to make the divorce easier, see a counselor/mediator to learn how to communicate well.
posted by headnsouth at 5:03 AM on July 20, 2008 [10 favorites has favorites]

agreeing with the above--this isn't a "we" decision, it's an "i" decision. say, "neither one of us has been happy with this marriage for a long time. now that the kids are almost grown, i want to end it."

you might want to visit a lawyer and get some pre-divorce advice. there are even divorce facilitators out there who specialize in dealing with this sort of thing. also, you should see a counselor, even if she won't. finally, you should go ahead and find an apartment so you can move out immediately.

i always counsel people to break up on a friday, so you have the weekend to take care of immediate fallout without having to deal with work.

good luck. i'm sorry you have to go through this.
posted by thinkingwoman at 6:26 AM on July 20, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

You've thought this through and you sound like a really decent man. You deserve some happiness and you will find it but it will be hard getting there. Here is my advice:

*See a marriage counselor on your own, specifically for his/her thoughts on how to tell your wife the marriage is over.

*See a divorce lawyer before doing anything. You may have been with your wife for nearly 30 years but you say she's a very angry person and you don't know for sure how she'll react to this. Protect your assets and your children from any sudden impulsive move on her part. I'm not suggesting your squirrel away your money or hide your assets from her - just take steps to ensure that her rage doesn't result in cleaned-out accounts or sky-high credit card bills. Clearly you'll have to support her and pay child support for some time, and you'll want to be fair, but just make sure, with a good lawyer's help, that you're in a position to do that.

*Line up as much as you can before you tell her - an apartment with an extra bedroom for one or both kids, if need be, that kind of thing.

Good luck. I wish you peace .. sounds like you're due for some better days.
posted by Kangaroo at 6:55 AM on July 20, 2008

I'd focus on the kids. Do what you can to make it as un-bad as possible for them; maybe get them and you into counseling to talk, if possible. Read about 10 books on the subject of "making divorce work for kids". Figure out what timing will work best for them.

A side effect may be that knowing that her kids, at least, will be OK will help your wife be just slightly less freaked out. It will probably help you, too.

The kids will have a hard time, regardless, though. You're going to have to work very hard and for little seeming reward for a while.
posted by amtho at 7:18 AM on July 20, 2008

Definitely consider divorce mediation.
posted by shivohum at 8:35 AM on July 20, 2008

Admit that you want the marriage to end no matter what. Couples counseling seems pointless since you are already out. Take all of the above advice about accepting responsibility that this is a YOU thing and not a 'we' thing. Do not assume she is unhappy and wants out. You are about to hurt her deeply and that's a fact. Your kids are watching, so although you sound like a really good guy, you are going to be a bad guy to the three of them for a while and that might be the hardest part. Don't accuse her, don't procrastinate, don't expect any acceptance or sympathy. You are breaking the family. But I think in your mind you are already out so be swift and direct.

Line up your plan before you deliver it to your wife including how the finances will work for her greater comfort and security, where you will live once the news has sunk in, what you expect of the living arrangements vis a vis the kids, etc. Tell her that in X days (once she has had a chance to process a bit) your heartfelt wish is to sit down and tell the kids together and then you are moving out. She may be too (understandably) hurt and angry to agree to that, so you'll need to have a plan for you telling them yourself and then going asap, which would suck for them in the end. See a family therapist with the kids and suggest to her that she do the same. I'm sorry, this is a tough tough place to be. Good luck and be kind to all including yourself.
posted by thinkpiece at 8:58 AM on July 20, 2008

IANAL, but I am going through a divorce right now. We get along, and neither of us has a lawyer. We'll be doing it ourselves with paperwork from the state, and it will cost us only court fees. I say this only to let you know that it can be done.

However, I specifically want to answer your question of HOW to ask for the divorce while causing as little pain as possible. Here is, I believe, the only way to do it in your situation.

Tell her. Don't ask. Let her know that there is no room for negotiation on your decision, and focus on YOUR feelings, not hers. Don't presume to know how she's feeling right now, or how she'll react. Keep the focus on you and the changes you want to make. "Something like 'After x months/years of careful consideration, I feel very strongly that we should end our marriage. I've decided I want a divorce. " This kind of statement will allow for no ambiguity or delusions that stop-gap counseling could save the relationship.

The next sentences should be very brief and indicate forethought about your children and your living situation. Something like "I will/have already got an apartment/a house with room for the kids. I expect you and I will share custody."

You cannot control how much pain she will or will not feel as a result of your decision. Pretty much the only pain you can prevent right now is allowing no ambiguity or any hope of it working out via counseling.

If you've already made your decision, informing her of it in the most direct and honest way possible is the kindest thing you can do.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 10:04 AM on July 20, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

If you can't get yourself to talk with your wife about your wanting a divorce, do see a therapist yourself as soon as you can. Therapists can great at helping with major decisions and following through. You have conflicting desires... you want to leave your marriage, yet avoid ugly confrontation. A therapist helps you relax some constraints so you can actually choose and act -- and it won't take long. You're also likely to appreciate having someone to talk to as the separation and divorce unfold.
posted by wryly at 11:52 AM on July 20, 2008

Make sure your kids know you love them. Don't tell them that you stayed in the marriage "for them" -- it will just make them feel guilty that you were unhappy because of them. Just tell them that now was the right time. Be sure you tell them -- again, and again, and again that you love them and will always be there for them and that its not because of anything having to do with them. Yes, even as teenagers. Hell, in some ways they'll need to hear this even more because they are teenagers.

Never, ever, ever say anything negative about their mother to them. Don't ever make them feel as though they need to choose sides.

They're old enough to know that both their parents have been unhappy for a while. In one way, this might come as a relief to them, but in another way its still going to be a shock and surprise. Make whatever attempts you can to make their lives as normal as possible. Go to school events (plays, graduation, sports, whatever) along side your former spouse, and be cheerful about it. Make sure you talk to both your kids every single day, and try to see them daily if you can.

Remember, this woman is the mother of your children. No matter what, she's always going to be a part of your life, even after the divorce.
posted by anastasiav at 12:08 PM on July 20, 2008

You've received a lot of great ideas re. the counselling/therapy/communication issues. My answer concerns the legal process.

You might want to find a lawyer who will take part in a "collaborative" divorce, as this process seeks to maintain communications and avoid litigation. It's much more complex than that, so google the state that you're in and add "collaborative divorce" to your search.

My experience as a divorce lawyer is that this process is not right for everyone, but for those who it does fit, it's the absolute best solution if your goal is maintaining civility and avoiding "burn the village to save it" divorce litigation.
posted by webhund at 1:40 PM on July 20, 2008

If she'll be worried about money, make sure you have a plan to keep her financially stable throughout the divorce.

Don't be stingy. She did have a job for many of those 20 years--cooking, cleaning, and doing housework. That is legitimate and important and it allowed you to advance in your career.

Yes, she probably is tired of "serving" you and your teenage sons, because she does all the work to keep the house running! Everyone gets tired. You asked her whether she wanted a divorce because she said she was tired?!? Talk about overreacting.

Additionally, see a counselor before filing. I think you owe it to her to ask her for counseling--she said no years ago, not yesterday.

If you cheated, don't tell her. It will make it ten times worse.

To echo headnsouth, take some responsibility for this.
posted by sondrialiac at 3:08 PM on July 20, 2008 [3 favorites has favorites]

You've got some great advice here already. My initial response to your post is that you need to take a look at how your attempts to alleviate your own guilt about ending the marriage will make the situation more difficult. Your post focused on your wife's emotional health and potential responses to you ending the marriage. Please understand that you are not going to be able to control or effect how she feels about this situation. Her response will be her response. You're going so far as to look for evidence that she wants a divorce too. It's really not likely, from what you described, that she's going to come to a point of understanding or agreement with you that the marriage should end. I would get therapy for yourself as soon as possible to assist you in understanding your own feelings and giving you some guidance as to how to proceed with her. (If she's depressed or codependent, you're probably going to need some advice on how to establish a new relationship with her relative to your co-parenting.) I think the best advice you've been given thus far is by ImproviseorDie: "Tell her. Don't ask. Let her know that there is no room for negotiation on your decision, and focus on YOUR feelings, not hers." And as headnsouth and sondrailiac said, you've got to take some responsibility for what you are about to do. Also, just because your kids are out of adolescence doesn't mean that this isn't going to really shake their sense of stability. Theirs is the emotional response that should be your primary focus right now. They're still too young to really understand relationships and it will take them time to see that the happiness you're looking to foster in your life was worth the short term pain and instability a divorce will cause.
posted by smallstatic at 4:34 PM on July 20, 2008

Yes, whatever headnsouth said.
posted by InterestedInKnowing at 11:16 AM on September 2, 2008