Comments on: reign or rein

Question: reign or rein

trig — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 00:05:05 -0800

Could someone with access to the OED or some other good source tell me whether the expression is "to hold rein over X" or "to hold reign over X"?

I'm having a surprisingly hard time getting a definitive answer. Maybe it's a less common expression than I thought.

By: lia

lia — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 00:13:17 -0800

pretty sure it's "reign over" and google has about 2,910,000 results for "reign over" and about 42,500 for "rein over"—of course, neither my memory nor google are qualified substitutes for the oed, but hey.

By: loiseau

loiseau — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 00:15:43 -0800

I've actually never heard this expression, so perhaps it isn't as common as you thought.

By: grouse

grouse — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 00:15:45 -0800

I can't find "hold rein" or "hold reign" in a full text search of the OED.

By: grouse

grouse — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 00:19:42 -0800

On the other hand there are 11 results for "reign over" and none for "rein over" dating from a 1297 quotation to a recent definition of "wield, v." written by the OED staff. Not really the same as a dictionary entry for "reign" that includes this usage, but useful I hope.

By: trig

trig — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 00:23:23 -0800

lia - I'm looking specifically for "hold rei(g)n over." Like "hold sway over." I was thinking it might be an eggcorn because while reins are what you hold, "reign" is often used with "over."

loiseau - yeah, it's interesting. I can find both variants in Google Books, for example, but with few hits in either case.

grouse - I was hoping there'd be something under the entries for reign or rein ("hold" might be in a different tense if the expression actually appears somewhere).

By: baserunner73

baserunner73 — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 00:25:55 -0800

Well,
Reign is referential to a king or monarchy, as the word is a derivitive of the Latin word 'rég' meaning king.
Rein alludes to reins such as on a horse, coming from the Latin word 'retinére' meaning to hold back or retain.
So I would assume both work, it just depends on what connotations you want it to have.

By: grouse

grouse — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 00:31:37 -0800

I was hoping there'd be something under the entries for reign or rein

Well, there's not, in the definitions at least. There are quotations. I checked all five entries. Sorry.

By: trig

trig — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 00:32:31 -0800

Oh well. Thanks!

By: rhizome

rhizome — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 00:34:54 -0800

Namechecking Occam, I've never heard of "reins" referred to in the singular.

By: trig

trig — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 00:37:36 -0800

Hmm, nice! But on the other hand you can rein something in.

By: kidbritish

kidbritish — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 00:39:11 -0800

I have never heard the expression either. If I were you, I would try to track down somebody whom you have heard using the phrase.

By: flabdablet

flabdablet — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 00:40:33 -0800

I've never heard "hold reign over". I've often seen "reign in" misused for "rein in" meaning "curb". I think you may have mashed up "hold sway over" with the hold-less "reign over" as in "long to reign over us, God save the Queen".

By: grouse

grouse — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 00:41:05 -0800

I have to say that there are a couple dozen examples of rein, n., being used in the singular.

By: jak68

jak68 — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 00:43:57 -0800

I'm very sure that the original was "reign", but that today probably both appear since common incorrect usage gradually becomes accepted. I dont think OED would list phrases, does it? You need an idiom dictionary.

Try this site: which claims to be " compiled from the Cambridge International Dictionary of Idioms and the Cambridge Dictionary of American Idioms"

I'm personally 100 percent sure the original was "reign" because I've never seen "rein" with this same meaning. The meanings would be slightly different but in important ways. Consider all the phrases of similar meaning that "reign" appears in: Reign over me; Reign of fire; all refering to "rule" in an active and objective sense. ON the other hand, "rein" only appears in idioms that mean 'restraint" or "self-restraint" in a passive or subjective sense, as in to "rein oneself in", to NOT exert oneself. Two slightly different meanings for the uses of these words in idioms in which they appear, and to me those different uses seem consistent across their idioms.

In addition to usage and meaning differences, "hold rein over" grammatically and metaphorically doesnt make sense. You can "hold authority" ("reign") but you dont "hold restraint". (If anything people tend to "give" restraint, not "hold" it).

Anyway, thats what I'd argue. But if you want to quote something you'd need an idiom dictionary I guess.

By: jak68

jak68 — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 00:52:18 -0800

You could also poke around at bartleby.

By: trig

trig — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 01:00:34 -0800

Well, the OED has a fair amount of usage information, including literary quotes, so I was hoping something might turn up. Couldn't find anything in the idiom dictionary or Bartleby. jak68, as far as meaning I think you can argue for either alternative - for example, if you hold the reins in some situation, you have control.

Anyway, clearly this expression is still in its formative phase. I guess the only thing to do is to decide which version I like more, form a coalition of like-minded people, and set about flooding the written world with examples. Remember: you saw it here first!

By: flabdablet

flabdablet — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 01:03:47 -0800

It's like waiting for the boot to drop off the other foot.

By: zippy

zippy — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 01:13:31 -0800

According to this link, the Oxford Pocket Thesaurus of Current English, 2008, lists reign over as a synonym for govern.

Not exactly what you wanted, but a search for "hold * over" on Google yields lots of other synonyms for govern in the wildcard spot.

By: mdevore

mdevore — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 01:49:53 -0800

The reference "Garner's Modern American Usage" comes a teeny bit closer in a discussion on the rein/reign entry:

"Like many homophones, these words are frequently mistaken for each other in print—but perhaps no other pair is confused in so many different ways.

Rein in, not reign in, is the correct phrase to "to check, restrain". The metaphorical image is of the rider pulling on the reins of the horse to slow down (i.e. "hold your horses")…

The error also occcurs with the noun forms: one holds the reins, not the reigns."…As further evidence of Murphy's Law at work, the opposite error (rein for reign) occurs as well…"

Your phrase "Hold rei[g]n over" sounds like a homonym mash-up. Two individual phrases "hold the rein[s]" and "reign over", possibly with the moderating influence of "rein in", have been smashed together by people who abuse the language, that is, people like most of us at some point during our lives of speaking and writing.

The closest example I can think of right now is "leap of faith healing", although it has an exact word match, rather than a homonym, at the splice point. Assuming this theory is true then, yup, looks like you can take your pick on which rei[g]n you think best suits your purposes and your new movement.

By: notsnot

notsnot — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 05:50:02 -0800

I've heard, instead of "reign over" or "rein over", "rein in", as in, to pull back on the reins (literally) - to curtail or restrict something. As in, "My aunt had to rein in my cousin's use of her bank account."

By: bitdamaged

bitdamaged — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 06:29:08 -0800

Personally you reign over things and rein in things.

YMMV and I'm really not answering the question.

By: weapons-grade pandemonium

weapons-grade pandemonium — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 07:04:27 -0800

It is correct to say you give free rein to (ideas, people, etc.), not free reign to. So hold rein over would be the logical opposite.

If you're using Google hits as a language authority, bear in mind that "I couldn't care less" gets 1,280,000 hits, whereas "I could care less" gets 2,300,000.

By: trig

trig — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 07:46:51 -0800

Thanks for all the answers. I should make it clear that what I needed was an actual source - one that I could reference - that defined this one particular expression. It looks like there isn't such a source.

By now I'm quite familiar with pretty much every use of reign and rein that can be found in a dictionary, including "reign over," "rein in," and what have you. :-)

By: Debaser626

Debaser626 — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 07:58:28 -0800

In addition to usage and meaning differences, "hold rein over" grammatically and metaphorically doesnt make sense. You can "hold authority" ("reign") but you dont "hold restraint". (If anything people tend to "give" restraint, not "hold" it).

I agree. "to hold rein over people" just doesn't look right. "To hold the reins on the people" is cumbersome but looks better. Unless this is something you're proofing or another author's work, I think the best bet would be to scrap the phrase and start over with something less ambiguous.

By: rhizome

rhizome — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:07:36 -0800

Ah, duh, I just wasn't thinking on this question. Please disregard my attempt. :)

By: frecklefaerie

frecklefaerie — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:24:50 -0800

Okay, no results in the OED for the following: "hold reign over" or "hold rein over" or "reign over" or "rein over"

Pertinent definitions to what you are asking:

Reign

b. transf. Influence, dominion, sway, of something immaterial. {dag}in reign, dominant.

c1402 LYDG. Compl. Bl. Knt. 510 So that Dispyt now holdeth forth hire reyne, Through hasty bileve of tales that men feyne. 1567 Gude & Godlie B. (S.T.S.) 204 Lyke Prince and King, he led the Regne, Of all Iniquitie. 1596 SPENSER F.Q. V. v. 28 She gan to stoupe, and her proud mind convert To meeke obeysance of love's mightie raine. 1656 JEANES Mixt. Schol. Div. 20 A soule that is free from both the raigne, or prevalency, and the anxiety of doubts. 1768 Woman of Honor III. 131 The allodial sistem was in reign before it was supplanted by the feodal one. 1781 COWPER Hope 33 Would age in thee resign his wintry reign. 1821 SHELLEY Remembrance 10 The owlet Night resumes her reign. 1867 DUKE OF ARGYLL Reign of Law i. 5 The Reign of Law in Nature is..universal. 1883 Century Mag. Oct. 804/1 A country where both winter and summer were debarred full reign.

Rein
2. fig. a. Any means of guiding, controlling, or governing; a curb, check, or restraint of any kind. In later use freq. in the reins of government (cf. F. les rênes du gouvernement).

c1430 LYDG Reas. & Sens. 2263, I am guyed by hir reyne, And she as lady souereyne [etc.]. c1440 J. CAPGRAVE Life St. Kath. v. 1467 What, art thou, dame, led on that rene? Thi witte counte I not worth a beene. 1560 J. DAUS tr. Sleidane's Comm. 134 God..hath not permitted him to have the reignes at libertie. 1596 DRAYTON Legends ii. 119 This held the reines which overrul'd his will. 1638 JUNIUS Paint. Ancients 55 Both doe hold the raines of our hearts, leading and guiding our Passions. 1667 MILTON P.L. XI. 582 The Men, though grave, ey'd them, and let thir eyes Rove without rein. 1712 POPE Spect. No. 408 {page}6 Never too strong for the Reins of Reason and the Guidance of Judgment. 1777 WATSON Philip II, XIV. (1793) II. 177 The council of state assumed the reins of government. 1827 HALLAM Const. Hist. (1876) III. xvi. 235 Anne herself..kept in her own hands the reins of power. 1879 FROUDE Cæsar v. 44 The Senate had dropped the reins, and no longer governed or misgoverned.

Feel free to memail me for the full definitions of each.

I'm sorry I can't exactly answer your question, but I'm hoping this information helps you.

By: IndigoJones

IndigoJones — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:04:18 -0800

I'm wondering if those who have used this in the past did so as a kind of malapropism, conflating "hold sway over" and "reign over", and compounding the problem by loose spelling. Do that kind of thing long ago enough and you'll have 21st century folk scratching their heads.

Just a thought.

Just from curiosity, why are you looking for this? To me, that's more interesting than the question itself.

By: trig

trig — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 13:47:04 -0800

frecklefaerie, thanks - that's the second best answer I could hope for. :-) "So that Dispyt now holdeth forth hire reyne" and "debarred full reign" look relevant.

IndigoJones - I was rewriting something and for reasons of rhythm wanted to use "held rei(g)n over" instead of "reigned over." (Also, to me the two expressions have slightly different connotations and the first felt more appropriate to the context.) As far as I knew it was a perfectly normal usage. But then I realized I wasn't sure how to spell it. So, not having access to any dictionaries that managed to settle the question, I looked both spellings up in Google, Google Books/Scholar, Project Gutenberg, etc. I ended up getting very few hits, and what I did get was divided pretty evenly between the two. So I was surprised and wanted to know what was going on.

Interestingly, if you look up "full rei(g)n over" you get a bunch of verbs in the hold position, including "have," "give," "assume," "allow," etc. Again, the hits are pretty evenly split. But the OED entry above gives "debarred full reign," and that seems like the sort of usage I was thinking of.

By: trig

trig — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 13:59:54 -0800

(And of course, as zippy said, influence, dominion, and sway can all be used in "hold * over." Maybe the question is why "reign" doesn't get used more in that construction!)