Do I speak now, or forever hold my peace?

July 7, 2008 6:44 AM

My otherwise sensible sister seems to be rushing into an ill-thought-out marriage. Is there any loving and effective way to get her to think more carefully about what she's doing?

It's the age-old story: little sister, six years my junior (we'll call her "Jules") just got engaged to her college boyfriend ("Ron") of two years; family and friends are dismayed. Not that the guy's an axe-murderer or anything; he's just young (23), immature and not especially motivated-- lives with his mom, still stays out until 4AM with the boys, shows up hours late for stuff, is perpetually broke, etc. Ron's currently deciding between three wildly different career paths (think comp-lit grad school in Europe vs. adventure tourism vs. full-time firefighting) and says he doesn't really care what he ends up doing, because "he's sure he'd be fine with any job." He seems to have expended minimal effort/thought on the proposal ("Here, have a ring. Wanna get married?"), and before the engagement, he told me that he doesn't have any particular desire to marry Jules anytime soon, but thought she'd expect to get engaged as a sign of commitment at this point in their relationship. All of this is perfectly fine for an average dude in the throes of post-college cluelessness, but for the guy who's going to be my sister's husband...eesh.

I wouldn't say that Ron and Jules are desperately in love: they were long-distance for the past year and saw each other a total of five times, despite there being only a three-hour drive between them. From what I've seen, the relationship doesn't make her especially happy, at least compared with ones she's had in the past. Unfortunately, my sister, while equally young, is also kind of a planner-- organized, forward-thinking, eager to get her ducks in a row. I know she had a private deadline to be married before her mid-twenties, and I'm worried she may be trying to shoehorn Ron into her existing set of life plans, without giving much thought to how things will actually work out.

We'd hoped she'd figure it out in the course of a long engagement-- or else that the wait would give Ron time to grow from dazed, downy fledgling into solid future husband-- but now Jules is talking about putting deposits down for a wedding this coming spring. (Ron may not have wanted so soon a date, but he's very much the follower in the relationship, and I have no doubt he'd go through with a wedding whenever Jules wanted.) She's got whole spreadsheets full of plans for flowers and dresses and hors-d'oeuvres, but the details of life *after* the wedding-- financial, emotional, logistical-- don't appear to be much on either her or Ron's mind.

My question is, as someone who loves Jules like, well, a sister, what's my best course of action here? When I got married earlier this year, Jules was a fantastically supportive and helpful maid-of-honor. She's clearly hurt that people aren't showing the same level of enthusiasm for her upcoming wedding, and seems to want me me to show support of the wholehearted, "squee!!-let's-plan-a-wedding!" variety. And like most little sisters, she's touchy about direct advice. On the other hand, I'm probably her closest female friend (as she is mine), so if anyone's going to be able to deliver a tactful nudge in the direction of sanity, it might be me. Since we're of a religion that frowns on divorce, there's a chance that the standard ill-advised early-20s wedding could have really long-term consequences in this case.

Above all, I want my sister to be happy, both short- and long-term, if possible. She's usually such a sensible, smart girl, that it breaks my heart to see her potentially screwing up her life like this. Do I bite my tongue and support her in this, while risking possibly enabling or promoting a really bad decision? Is there some subtle way to raise the obvious issues without alienating her?

Any follow-up questions, email [e-mail]. Thanks!

posted by anonymous to human relations (23 comments total)

I had a similar situation and sadly there was nothing I could do. I tried to intervene and tell her she was making a big mistake (in her case she had only known the guy for about 3 months to boot!) and it just ended up ruining our relationship for years. My sister and I had been very very close and when I objected to her marriage, first gently then when gentle resistance was ignored more firmly, she simply removed me from her life.

And to this day the marriage appears to be a mistake. He is lazy, currently employed but looking at "early retirement" to live off my sister's salary, and they don't have much in common.

But it does make her happy to be married to him, for reasons that I don't understand.

So my suggestion is to gently raise your objections, and if she continues, then you do what family members do: support your sister. Support her now and if she gets married, support her then. And if things get rough and fall apart, support her then and at all costs avoid saying "I told you so"...

Good luck...it's hard on us siblings when our sisters make big mistakes...
posted by arniec at 7:11 AM on July 7, 2008

I think the best way to work through this situation is to break it up into lots of little pieces. Find your worry hot spots and target them. A lot of stuff you mentioned is not that important, IMO- he's not that ambitious? Well, not everyone is. That doesn't mean he's not going to get around to paying the bills when he has to. She doesn't seem as happy as in relationships past? Well, she's not 15 anymore, this love is probably different. He said at one point he didn't want to marry her? Well, that was before he proposed, so, clearly, something changed. Push all the excuses aside and really, you're just sad, sad that you're sister is living differently than you would have hoped. I think it's important to acknowledge that grief, move through it, and then buck up and be the best Maid of Honor you can be. Being fully supportive of what your sister is choosing to do frees her from the burden of defending her marriage to you, and gives her space to start thinking about the marriage herself. This should not be done as a trick- chances are, she'll still marry him, but at least you will have been there, and you'll still be able to be there if anything really bad happens.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:21 AM on July 7, 2008 [15 favorites]

Is there some subtle way to raise the obvious issues without alienating her?

No, honestly, there isn't, especially if she already senses your (and the family's) lack of enthusiasm.

Speaking as an impartial third party, I don't see any "obvious" issues. If maturity was a prerequisite for marriage, nobody would ever get married.

Nothing you've mentioned is throwing up huge red warning signs to me. Do you have any sense that there are other more sinister issues lurking, like an addiction problem, that might be the reason for some of his less mature behavior? If so, you might have a reason to object more vehemently. Otherwise, there's not a whole lot you can do, or should do.

And on preview, ThePinkSuperhero gave a great answer!
posted by SuperSquirrel at 7:25 AM on July 7, 2008

The "really bad decision" has already happened, so you are in no way "enabling" your sister to make it by supporting her through her wedding plans. This is her wedding, even if it is a mistake in your eyes, and you could really mess up your relationship by trying to talk her out of it (which would almost certainly not work anyway).

I would also like to point out that while she may be a sensible person and a planner, jumping into a wedding because she's always imagined getting married young isn't super mature, and she may not be so ill suited to her "typical" early-20s beau. Getting through a long distance relationship unscathed is a pretty major accomplishment even if you don't think they are "passionately in love". If she doesn't mind him going out till 4am or his laid-back attitude towards major commitments, and he's willing to happily follow her into marriage when she says so...well, that doesn't sound so bad to me. Few marriages are bred out of the perfect combination of extreme passion and reason, and half of them work out ok.
posted by shownomercy at 7:28 AM on July 7, 2008

No man will be good enough for your little sister. Accept that, and let her make her own mistakes.

As long as he doesn't abuse her, of course.
posted by WinnipegDragon at 7:33 AM on July 7, 2008 [2 favorites]

If she asks for your advice or your opinion on this matter, then give it honestly but tactfully.

Otherwise, bite your tongue and be supportive.
posted by amro at 7:41 AM on July 7, 2008 [2 favorites]

TALK TO YOUR SISTER. Be gentle and sensitive, but you have to tell her what your concerns are. I know she's eager to get swept away in planning her wedding, and she deserves that special sort of delirium/bliss that accompanies being a bride. But (you could sense that on the horizon, right?) you already know she is headed toward serious heartache since her husband-to-be is not at all interested in assuming that role. He is unlikely to change his ways once they marry and her frustrations will be magnified by his frat-boy lifestyle. I urge you to talk with your sister, and soon. Even if she doesn't take your advice, she will have heard you express your concern for her very best.
posted by heathergirl at 7:41 AM on July 7, 2008

This must be so wrenching for you. It is hard to stand helplessly by while people make big mistakes with their lives.

I would sit down with your sister and tell her what you told us, that you're afraid she's getting married to be married rather than because she really feels this is the man she would like to spend the rest of her life with.

It probably won't work. In that case tell her, "Well, you're the only one who can decide this. And though I don't agree with your marriage, since this is what you've decided on, I will do my best to help you have a nice wedding and a happy life with Ron."

Then do just that. Give her a modest level of help with her wedding, and focus your support giving on her life after the wedding. Urge her to get pre-wedding counselling, framing your arguments in terms of "it gives couples the tools to resolve future issues" rather than as "so you can see how disastrous this will be". Ask her what her plans are for her life afterwards and try to get her thinking and planning for the marriage, not just the wedding. Talk with her about housing, about career choices, about planning for children, about finances, about their prospective social life.

She may wind up divorced. She may wind up with a lasting but contentious marriage. She may be happy even though her marriage would seem utterly foreign to anything you would have wanted. Ron probably will do at least some growing up, though he may never really rise about the oafish level.

You don't really know, and you don't have a crystal ball. So try to put aside your fears, accept that your sister has to run her own life, work with her situation as you find it, and try to give her whatever help and support and direction you reasonably can.
posted by orange swan at 7:47 AM on July 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

Butt out and be supportive. Don't tell her your concerns. Help her plan. Support her excitement. Support her marriage, and, if and when it disintegrates support her then, too.

As someone who got married when others thought it was a "bad idea" I really never stopped resenting their disapproval or meddling. I lost a lot of friendships over people laughing or disapproving of my heartfelt decisions. If her marriage does work out, the last thing you want to be is the one who poo-pooed the idea the whole time. And if it doesn't work out, she'll still be thankful for helping her. The bottom line is that you aren't marrying this guy, so don't judge him by your standards.
posted by milarepa at 8:12 AM on July 7, 2008 [3 favorites]

You cannot predict these things. I've seen marriages like this last for decades. Many are still together. I've seen other, more deliberate, sensible, and practical unions dissolve in a few years. Good marriages are growing, changing, organic organisms. In five or ten years these will be two different people, hopefully still together. If you love your sister, you will support her judgment, right or wrong.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 8:22 AM on July 7, 2008 [2 favorites]

I agree with the "talk to your sister" part -- if she feels that people aren't being supportive, she knows there is a reason, so it shouldn't be hard to bring it up. If she explains why she thinks this is a good idea, and that he really makes her happy, you must be a good sister who is excited in her happiness.

That said, I had a relative who was in a similar situation, and I sent them to "engaged encounter" -- it's run by Catholics, but when I did it, lots of other denominations were there (and my husband is not catholic) (and I think there are probably other similar things out there). I framed it as a gift, because my husband and I did it and found it extremely helpful and rewarding. Basically, it's a weekend long retreat where different topics are raised, you write about them, exchange notebooks, and then discuss. It's very personal - not a lot of sharing. At the end of the first night, almost every woman was crying and thinking the marriage would never work; by the end of the weekend, most couples felt a lot closer. A few didn't. But it made people think about the relationship in more serious terms (even for my husband and I who were older than your sister, and who had talked about most of the things you should talk about going into a marriage). My relative who went -- they broke off the engagement a couple months later, and my relative will tell you that the process started at the engaged encounter weekend. So that's how I recommend people say something without saying anything -- it lets her, hopefully, see for herself what you see. Or it doesn't, but still brings them closer. Win win situation. Harder to pull off if you aren't Catholic or haven't been through something similar, but maybe you could figure something out. If you want more details, you can mail me.
posted by dpx.mfx at 8:27 AM on July 7, 2008 [13 favorites]

Recently I've read that a good way to approach this is to back off, but if/when she complains, ask her how she feels and encourage her to really think about the issues, without giving your own commentary.

That is, don't tell her she's making a huge mistake, because she will be more likely to want to "prove everyone wrong," but be there for her when things are tough. If she starts to doubt or complain, just encourage her to share and cultivate her thoughts and don't automatically respond with, "ugh, he's no good for you" etc. I think the recommended approach is to say something along the lines of, "Why does XYZ upset you? Have you talked to him about it? What does he say? How does he respond to your complaints?"

In a nutshell, you want her to come to the realization herself. She'll never just go along with everyone else until she realizes it's a mistake. So allow her to figure that out in her own time, not with you guys all pushing her in a direction she doesn't want to go. Keep your own opinions out of it and be a sounding board for her.

As always, YMMV and they could end up making it all work, as noted upthread. I've seen a few solid, very-in-love couples divorce after as little as nine months and a few "I don't think they'll make it through the year" who are still going strong years later.
posted by ml98tu at 8:54 AM on July 7, 2008 [4 favorites]

You could perhaps bring up the topic of the issues you think she's not considering without relating it to getting married (e.g. a casual conversation about where you each see yourselves in 10 or 20 years). But if she's looked at the same evidence that you have and considered the same issues and come to a different conclusion, then there's not really anything else you can do while preserving the relationship with her. (Note that this doesn't mean that the actions which will hurt your relationship are very likely to help either.)
posted by winston at 8:56 AM on July 7, 2008

No. You are not responsible for her happiness and sometimes people need to make their own mistakes. Not to be a total downer but I have found that the more you try to get someone to see how stupid they are being, the more they will continue their stupid behavior. It's like permission to be more of a dumb ass or something.
posted by janelikes at 9:03 AM on July 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

As others have said or implied, there are two different things that are worrying you: 1) your sister is marrying someone you don't think she should; 2) your sister and her beloved are too young and immature to take marriage seriously.

I agree with others that there's nothing you can really do about the first concern. However, you have a lot of latitude with the second.

My older brother is married, whereas I am not (I'm in a LTR, but not married). He has given me advice about what married life is like, about what planning is important, and what-not. One of the most important bits of advice he has given me is the following: "Man, I tell ya, there's nothing as useful as pre-marriage counseling. We didn't get it, but we sure could have used it. It helps you understand how to relate to one another, and that's helpful, even if you don't think you need it. I'd definitely encourage everyone to get it. There's so much about communication you need to understand if you want a marriage to work."

I'd suggest you say something like that to your sister. Give her advice about how to prepare to be married, not how to decide whether or not she actually wants to be married. Stress the importance of figuring out finances and shared future goals and what-not. Maybe suggest a pre-marriage counselor, or maybe even just a self-help book about married life--anything like that. Help her through the process of working with her fiance to understand what it takes to be happily married.

Now, if the situation is as dire as you say it is, then there's a good chance that the planning for marriage will show your sister a lot of cracks in her plan that she doesn't currently see. It may help her reevaluate this important decision she's making. Maybe it will lead to her calling off the wedding... Or maybe it will lead to her and her fiance becoming better partners for each other, more prepared to join their lives together.

You can't get your sister to not make her own decisions. But you can help her see how those decisions should be made, you can reveal to her all the "secrets" to a happy marriage that you, as the older married sister, know. It'll help her, whether she does actually marry this guy or not.
posted by Ms. Saint at 9:18 AM on July 7, 2008

Under the pretext of getting to know your future in-law better, go talk to Ron one-on-one and bring a six-pack. He seems to be going along without really making any hard decisions. Ask him the hard questions—does he really want to get married, or is he in fact just following the path of least resistance? Don't put him on the defensive if you can avoid it: use a more indirect approach to asking how he came to decide he wanted to get married, when he knew she was the right girl, that sort of thing.

If it comes out that he really is just going with the flow, that's the point where you stick up for your sister and also try to get him to take a more long-term view of the situation. Remind him that calling off the wedding now would be awkward but a hell of a lot easier than getting a divorce, and at any rate, your sister will have you to rely on for emotional support in case he's worried about how upset she'll be.

But who knows, he might surprise you.
posted by adamrice at 9:32 AM on July 7, 2008

I am a person who pursues a number of interests for short periods of time. At 23, I could a have been asking, "Should I be a writer, a hermit, a flight attendant, or a beach bum in Asia?" I've been with my partner for 15 years and have never held a full-time job in that time; I've only had full-time jobs for a total of about 3 years of my life, and at one of those "full-time" jobs I managed to average about 30 hours a week.

I could easily imagine friends of my partner seeing me as a freeloader. Especially when we were younger, and I was supposedly working part-time to pursue a writing career and not doing a very good job of it, and we didn't have any kids.

Nonetheless, I am a really good person to spend life with. I'm good at being in relationships, I'm a great mom, I'm funny, I'm a decent cook, I'm highly organized and keep track of all the household stuff, and it's OK with me that my partner, who earns a good living, is nonetheless not ambitious (his biggest fear is of being made a supervisor at work).

I agree with folks who've said that supporting your sister is important--if things do go bad for her in this marriage, you want her to think of you as someone she can come talk to without having to eat crow to do it. But I just also want to float the idea that Ron may in fact be someone who can make her happy.
posted by not that girl at 9:50 AM on July 7, 2008 [5 favorites]

When you get married at 23 instead of 29, as you did, you do alot more growing up and maturing together. Is it possible that you're looking for your sister to do what you did, and wait until she is older and more settled and her and her potential mate are more fixed in their characters and jobs and futures? Because you have already told us that that's not what your sister wants for herself -- that she'd like to be married before she's in her mid-twenties. (Conversely, maybe your sister thought you were waiting too long to get married, and that you should be proceeding through all the hoops faster than you did; if so, however, it sounds like she didn't try to move you along more rapidly.)

This is not to say that your sister's marriage will be successful, but tread carefully. I think it's very hard to understand exactly what makes love work for some people, but fail for others. In the past, whenever I thought I had it figured out, my hubris inevitably wound up coming back to bite me. Good luck!
posted by onlyconnect at 10:27 AM on July 7, 2008

You speak now, gently and tactfully and once. You tell her you want to be excited for her, but you're having trouble picturing their life after the wedding because they seem so different. You make sure she knows that you'll support her no matter what she does, whether it's needing someone to stand up for her choice to marry him or needing someone to help her back out at the last minute.

And then you step back and realise that she'll probably stay with him, so you adjust to the idea of him being your brother-in-law, and you throw yourself into wedding-planning and marriage-planning (including helping them to find premarital counselling). You ask her to tell you stories about their relationship so you can write a good speech at her wedding, and in those stories you find the things you're missing, the reasons she loves him and wants to be with him. Surely your smart, sensible sister has reasons. Be open to the possibility that you don't have the whole picture.
posted by heatherann at 10:27 AM on July 7, 2008 [5 favorites]

I can tell you a story about my recent wedding.

My new husband is wonderful. We have been married a few weeks now, and we've been together about four years.

His one brother "Adam" and his wife "Leah" were very close to us. Leah and I talked on the phone all the time, she was the first person I called when we got engaged, and I had asked her to stand up in my wedding (it didn't work out, but I did ask her).

At my bridal shower, Leah pulled me aside and said, "You know, I hate to ruin your party, but I really need to make sure that you're happy with him. I just don't think that you are acting like two people who are getting married, you don't seem happy enough, and I just need to know that you've thought this through." Turns out that Adam and my fiance went out the same day and Adam ripped him a new one about how he "doesn't treat me well enough" and he's "not responsible enough to get married" and etc etc etc.

I was a little confused, since this was all news to me, but I chalked it up to the fact that Leah's sister had just a few weeks prior been walked out on by her husband of eight years. Everyone in the family was legitimately stressed.

I thanked her for her concern, but assured her that though every couple has their problems, we were very happy together and had definitely thought this all through.

Unfortunately, a week or so later, Leah called me again to re-iterate what she said at my shower. I thanked her again, but said that she needed to let us work out our problems by ourselves.

She became livid, and started yelling at me about how she knew way more about marriage than I do, and I was making a huge mistake, and that if she had to stand up at our wedding and object to our union, she would. Then she dragged his parents into it, and his other brother and my parents... it was a huge mess. Fortunately, no one else thought that we were making a mistake, and she kept her mouth shut at the wedding.

We've only talked a few times since- she thinks nothing is wrong and everything is fine, and in her own words she's "extremely happy for us". But I just can't shake the fact that she tried her damndest to break up our engagement just weeks before our wedding- because we didn't meet her idea of the perfect couple.

It sounds like you have some legit concerns, and your head is in the right place, but I agree with a number of the other commenters- it would be best to tell her once, and gently, how you feel. Then leave it alone. You risk severing your ties with your best friend.

Good luck, and sorry for the looooong comment. Just remember that if for whatever reason their relationship doesn't work out, she's going to want you to have her back. Make sure that you're still on the same team no matter what happens.
posted by nataliedanger at 2:55 PM on July 7, 2008

Assuming you are Catholic, don't you have to go thru premarital counseling before a priest will marry you? (Or them, actually...) If they are planning a church wedding more than likely premarital counseling will be encouraged if not INSISTED upon.

Let the counselor rattle their cages. That's what they are for!
posted by konolia at 4:01 PM on July 7, 2008

I'm on the side of expressing your concerns to Jules. If the two of you are best friends, and you're her older sibling, then I think she will be okay with discussing your concerns with her. I mean, it seems like you love each other and ultimately trust Jules's judgment; but you want to express your concerns, not dictate her life.

At the very least, you can put a bug in her ear and encourage her to think about all of this more critically.

"Aren't you worried that you're getting married too quickly? No? Okay, I was just curious. How does Ron feel about it? Are you sure? I spoke to him, and he seems a little hesitant.

"What are you going to do if he goes off to another country? Do you really think that's the best course of action for your life right now? Okay - just wondering.

"How do you feel about his ambitions - I think it's a little weird that he either wants to do A, B or C, which are completely different things. Maybe you need to wait a little while in order to see how he settles down?

"I worry about you, and I love you, and you know that; I want the best for you and you have to understand that I'm a little worried about you planning your wedding to Ron like this. I want the best for you, and I want you to be happy, but sometimes I wonder."

Good luck.
posted by jabberjaw at 4:58 PM on July 7, 2008

Do I speak now, or forever hold my peace?

First one, then the other.

When my best friend was getting married to a woman who I thought would drive him crazy, I took him aside one day and said:

"Right. I'm only going to say this once, and then on I'm behind you 100%. I think ... [list of concerns about the marriage]. I needed to say that as your friend. And having said it, I'm done, and let's go get you married."

It hasn't harmed our friendship, and while the traits I thought would drive him crazy have in fact driven him crazy on occasion, they've overall had one of the most successful marriages that I'm aware of.
posted by tkolar at 10:03 AM on July 8, 2008 [1 favorite]