Comments on: No more than vs. not more than

Question: No more than vs. not more than

Arasithil — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 07:01:33 -0800

What is the difference between "no more than" and "not more than"?

A friend of mine who is learning English (Japanese is her native language) brought me this question, and I couldn't come up with a satisfactory explanation.

The example she gave was:
"Mr. Smith wrote no more than ten letters."
"Mr. Smith wrote not more than ten letters."

I feel that there is some difference in nuance, but I can't quite put it into words (and as a native speaker, my limited grammar education isn't doing much to help - the closest I can come is that "not" is only ever an adverb, while "no" has somewhat broader applicability?).

Specific situations where only one of the two would be correct would also help a lot.

Thank you very much!

By: amtho

amtho — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 07:11:43 -0800

The first is less harsh/strict sounding.

The second is focused on the hard limit of ten letters.

In both, the possibility exists that Mr. Smith wrote no letters, but it seems less likely with the first example.

By: shadow vector

shadow vector — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 07:14:21 -0800

I would associate "no more than" with an upper bound on uncertainty, and "not more than" with a hard cap. E.g., "Mr. Smith might have written six or seven letters, but definitely no more than ten" versus "Mr. Smith was under strict instructions to write not more than ten letters."

By: Jaltcoh

Jaltcoh — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 07:16:45 -0800

I would say that "no more than" is neutral, just stating a fact: "this was the maximum number." "Not more than" is either emphatic (in kind of a folksy way?) or bureaucratese/legalese ("the papers are to be filed not more than 30 days from ...").

But really, "not more than" is so idiomatic that if someone is just learning English they should probably just not use it. Stick to "no more than." It's the kind of phrase that might sound right coming from a native speaker but people will assume is wrong if a non-native speaker uses it.

By: fogster

fogster — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 07:20:12 -0800

Yes, I too think of "not more than" as legalese or a forced restriction.

IANALinguist, though.

By: three blind mice

three blind mice — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 07:25:05 -0800

These sort of questions come up all the time in patent claim drafting discussions, but I am not aware of "no more than" versus "not more than" ever being in dispute. You pretty commonly see both used in patent claims so I guess the answer (at least in that context) is no difference.

This is one of those shrug your shoulders and say "English doesn't always follow strict rules" sort of answer. For shizzle.

By: dowcrag

dowcrag — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 07:25:50 -0800

I agree that the difference is in the degree of emphasis: 'No more than' is a request or an instruction. 'Not more than' is a command.

By: Dec One

Dec One — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 08:09:34 -0800

Tell your friend to spend her time learning more useful parts of the English language. If there is a difference here, it is very small.

By: roofus

roofus — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 08:16:42 -0800

I am a native English speaker from London UK.

I've tested this out in my head with a bunch of different examples, and I can't really detect any difference.

I suspect one or other might be generally more common in different english speaking regions. From this side of the Atlantic "not more than" sounds just as good as "no more than", so I think Jaltcoh is on the right track describing this as an idiomatic difference, rather than any real difference in inherent meaning.

By: wheat

wheat — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 08:18:06 -0800

Just seems a nuanced difference to me. There's no difference in meaning (i.e. ten is still the maximum number of letters written). "Not more than" sounds a bit stiffer and emphasizes the limit (as a limit) a bit more than the more common "no more than."

By: ludwig_van

ludwig_van — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 08:31:30 -0800

I don't think there's any significant difference.

By: tallus

tallus — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 08:43:27 -0800

Consider the following use cases¹:

x27;Women who smoke are no more likely than men to get lung cancer...Our findings suggest that women are not more susceptible than men to the carcinogenic effects of cigarette smoking in the lung".x27;

x27;Keanu Reeves is "certainly not more important than the president of the United States."...attorney Joseph Farzam also aruged that Reeves is no more "popular than O.J. Simpson".x27;

In both these examples no more is used in a way that puts the emphasis on comparison, when not more than is used the emphasis is on negation (in the first example the implicit suggestion is that it was thought that women are more susceptible). This seems to me similar to other patterns of use. cf

When it comes to language tallus is...

no more likely to be correct than other posters.

not as knowledgeable as languagehat. (not more knowledgeable than)

1. found by typing "no more" "no more" into Google

By: headspace

headspace — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 09:20:39 -0800

Using this example:

Women who smoke are no more likely than men to get cancer...

Women who smoke are not more likely than men...

The difference is that the first could read "Women are just as likely..." but the second one, you cannot (and maintain meaning.)

So I think "no more than" is more an equivalency, she wrote some letters, maybe several, possibly as many as ten, but that's all. As opposed to, she definitely wrote a lot of letters, but she stopped at ten, specifically.

By: mu~ha~ha~ha~har

mu~ha~ha~ha~har — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 10:25:21 -0800

English is NOT logical. That is the rule. (People trying to fabricate rules in an effort to explain it is probably how it got so messed up in the first place.) The explanation is always 'just because'. Take note of the things and eventually you begin to see the patterns. Read as much as possible and it will start to click. One day you'll read something and think "That's.. not right." Logically it could be right, but it's not. And why? Just because.

By: whimsicalnymph

whimsicalnymph — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 12:48:18 -0800

no more than 10 = less than 10

not more than = less than or equal to 10

That's how it seems to me.

By: Jaltcoh

Jaltcoh — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 23:24:39 -0800

No, they both mean less than or equal to 10.