It's the inside that matters. Right?

June 4, 2008 5:58 PM

Do I have some sort of identity-crisis?

I notice that more and more people are disturbed about how my self-concept has formed. Some people are disturbed that I will identify myself by personality type (strong extrovert and very spontaneous), my hobbies/interests, political views, and age group before I would identify myself by occupation, relationship status, gender, and race. Sexual orientation, physical appearance, and class falls somewhere in the middle.

I also relate to others the same way the same way I relate to myself. I sometimes get strange looks when I say I’m searching for a partner who is outgoing, liberal, likes sports, and likes the same type of music/food/movies. People often don’t believe that I would choose the above over someone who has a nice job, who is the same race, and super attractive (who doesn’t have the qualities I listed above).

People seem the most disturbed that I don’t identify by my race and gender. Well, I do, but they come very last. I’ve been accused of everything from having self-hatred (I don’t) to being plain stupid (according to them those are the two things that impact my life experience the most). I understand where they are coming from somewhat, but 51% of the population has the same gender and billions of people on this earth has the same race as myself. Why would I identify by those two things first? As for occupation, why would I identify myself by something I only spend 40 hours a week doing? I know this stuff is important in our society, but that doesn’t mean it has to be important to ME.

Do I have a fucked up sense of self? What are the consequences of me having a “strange” self-concept? As for relating to others, could this be the reason why I have trouble building rapport sometimes, they identify themselves as something completely different? Links to sources on this subject?

posted by sixcolors to human relations (25 comments total)

"I sometimes get strange looks when I say I’m searching for a partner who is outgoing, liberal, likes sports, and likes the same type of music/food/movies. People often don’t believe that I would choose the above over someone who has a nice job, who is the same race, and super attractive (who doesn’t have the qualities I listed above)."

This is, in my experience, really weird. Not you, those strange looks. That's the way 99% of the people I know describe their ideal partner.

For that matter, I definitely identify with things like my political and philosophical views far more than my racial identity. So I'm a white Jew, so what; it's much more relevant that I'm an extreme social liberal and secular humanist. And I never describe myself by my job - software is what I *do*, not who I *am*.

So: While it's uncommon to not identify by gender, none of the others would give me pause for a moment. You are not meaningfully strange.
posted by Tomorrowful at 6:06 PM on June 4, 2008

Some people are disturbed that I will identify myself by personality type (strong extrovert and very spontaneous), my hobbies/interests, political views, and age group before I would identify myself by occupation, relationship status, gender, and race.

Disturbed how? And why the hell does what anyone else think matter? You have a strong sense of identity and what you need out of a mate; why the heck should anyone be 'disturbed' by that?

And your definition of self seems really normal, not at all 'disturbing.' Perhaps this is partially my post-Gen-X view of the world, but I don't see why anyone would identity primarily by the things like occupation, relationship status. Gender, race, perhaps, as those have distinctly political overtones (as does the self-hatred bit; I'm guessing you're a racial/ethnic minority, wherever you are?), but eh.

If you can't be bothered about those things, so what?
posted by flibbertigibbet at 6:09 PM on June 4, 2008

Sorry. The last line should read "If you can't be bothered to self-identify through certain things, so what? It's your choice and you're well within normal."
posted by flibbertigibbet at 6:10 PM on June 4, 2008

Certain cultural groups value some things differently than others. If you're Indian or Chinese (as in living in India or China) then the values you list other people as liking are the stereotypical "normal" values. The values you list are ones that I associate with people who grew up in the US, Canada or Britain. Maybe that's it. Some groups tend to view race and/or gender as being more important than others. Without getting too "invisible backpack", few white males primarily self-identify primarily as white males. Many black women self-identify as black women before other personal attributes. If you were white male I would be really surprised if anyone gave you a hassle about self-identifying via "personality type..., hobbies/interests, political views, and age group." Anyway, that's all based on stereotypes and is pretty rough. I'm sure some people with disagree with my stereotypes. But my guess is that it may have something to do with your gender (I would guess female) and/or your race/cultural background.

I don't find your self-identity values strange at all and am honestly a little surprised that anyone would think they're strange. But I have never really been into "identity politics" although it certainly is a huge force in some peoples' lives.
posted by GuyZero at 6:26 PM on June 4, 2008

I agree with the other commenters, but there's something that sets me off here...you've had trouble understanding people in a couple different ways based on your previous Askmes, and it sounds like you feel defensive and are seeking validation, which you deserve, but might not really help. In my expenience, there's a difference between people who frame strong personal preferences individually, ("I prefer blogs to books") and people who frame them universally ("Books are all stupid, blogs are better"). If your self expressions are more like "Gender isn't really a big deal" as opposed to "Personality is more important to me", you may be leaving people feeling disrespected without realizing it. They'll feel alienated and more comfortable criticizing you as a result.
posted by StrikeTheViol at 6:40 PM on June 4, 2008 [3 favorites]

I do not think you are fucked up in your sense of self: you seem to have a clear idea of whom you like, and what attributes they should possess in order for you to like them. Chemistry between two human beings counts, and it is not always based on beauty.

The thing that troubles me is that I remember having a conversation about my preferences in a partner only once in my life, and that was over 40 years ago, when I was in high school. Maybe people do not talk about what they would like, maybe they just search? That could explain the strange looks.

You might want to try to be more open and receptive to people, even if at first they do not seem your cup of tea. This year I made a new friend: she is a woman whom I initially pegged as "new age empty headed Barbie". Circumstances threw us together and I realized that I totally misjudged her. I have decided not to be so quick in judging people.
posted by francesca too at 6:43 PM on June 4, 2008

Sixcolors: If it helps, your priorities seem ok to me.
I'm idly wondering if part of the problem might be that so many people claim to evaluate others by your priorities, but don't really. For example, "occupation, relationship status, gender, and race" also happen to be a fairly good indication of social status. It's not cool to admit that you're all about people's status, so people generally don't - but actions often suggest otherwise. And for people who do care a lot about class and status, not caring might be taken as a sign that you lack those things?

I'm making this up on the fly here. Take my words seriously at your own risk. Just spouting some things to think about.

That said, I think StrikeTheViol may be on to something too.

I wouldn't worry about the source of your self-identity though. So many people seem to worry about finding themselves that if you're not struggling with that, more power to you.
posted by -harlequin- at 6:52 PM on June 4, 2008

if you just need your priorities validated, well, i think we all seem to agree that you seem pretty normal (or normative, at least).

you seem really insecure about it, though. as though you feel like you're supposed to care more about those things, and maybe project those obsessions onto others.

certainly there are a lot of shallow people out there, or people for whom the priorities are simply different from yours. is it wrong to marry for looks and money alone? no, but it's not how i'd make my choice. but you seem really uncomfortable deviating from the priorities of others.

have you seen a therapist? i don't think EVERYBODY thinks you're weird--i think YOU ARE AFRAID everybody thinks you're weird. and you really aren't. so relax, and get a therapist to help you work through it.
posted by thinkingwoman at 7:02 PM on June 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

I sometimes get strange looks when I say I’m searching for a partner who is outgoing, liberal, likes sports, and likes the same type of music/food/movies.

This look means: Yeah, you and everyone else. Stop acting like you're special.
posted by mullacc at 7:11 PM on June 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Vivian Cass came up with what is now called the Cass Model to explain successive stages of gay and lesbian identity formation. Interestingly, stage 5 is the "identity pride" stage that consists of being "out and proud" and completely and enthusiastically embracing their gay identity. Stage 6 is the "synthesis stage" in which gay/lesbian identity is integrated with the other aspects of self, and rather than being understood as the defining characteristic of the individual, it is seen as being just another aspect of many identities that the individual has.

Vivian Cass wrote about this model in the 70's, and I believe that in the original paper she mentioned that many people sort of stopped at stage 5, and stage 6 wasn't meant to be a more complete level of development in an objective sense or a final destination, but that people who reached stage 6 viewed stage 5 as a prerequisite to their fully-formed sense of self.
posted by Maxwell_Smart at 8:03 PM on June 4, 2008

I don't think you're weird. I get very irritated when women expect me to identify with them purely on the basis of being women, for example. I would get similarly weirded out if I was explicitly told that I must identify with other white people, but thankfully it doesn't come up. I also know a lot of gay people who get irritated that other gay people want their sexuality to be one of their defining points.

For whatever reason, there is a kind of person that puts a lot of emotional stake in that group mentality and feels threatened when others don't. Don't sweat it.
posted by Nattie at 8:09 PM on June 4, 2008

I'm struggling to understand in what situations & ways you're being asked to define your identity (or in which you feel you're required to do so) and I can't come up with much other than filling in profile details for online dating, or something similar.

Imagining a bar conversation:

"So, what do you do for a living?"

"Oh, that kind of definition isn't important to me; what matters to me more is that I'm a sport-loving liberal"

"Right, um, what do you think of Obama v Clinton?"

"Well, I don't approach that kind of thing from a black or a female perspective, but from the point of view of somebody who's extroverted & spontaneous..."

"Hey, I'm really dying to take a piss all of a sudden; did you notice where the mens' room is?"

"Nah, I just go in whichever toilet is nearest; I'm more concerned with what to add next to my collection of framed tropical butterflies..."

Perhaps if you could step back in & provide some kind of context to this question, it might help.
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:14 PM on June 4, 2008

I don't think you have a strange sense of self. I think you may have a strange way of conversing or relating with others, and I can't conceive of a situation where many people would accuse perfectly normal-sounding you of the things you've described.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 8:18 PM on June 4, 2008

It doesn't sound like you're "fucked up", but the way you've described the situation above made my brain hurt a little. It's extremely vague and open--can you be more specific? Write down the dialogue of one of these situations like a movie script. What kind of question is asked, and how do you answer?

It seems to me that if people are giving you weird looks because of what you're saying, it's possibly not what you're saying but how you're saying it. Are you being friendly, honest, inquisitive towards the other person? Or are you being blunt, crude, and condescending of the other person?
posted by zardoz at 8:28 PM on June 4, 2008

Hmmm...context. Let me see...

This comes up when people describe their ideal boyfriend or girlfriend. On myspace, where it says "about me", I notice that people usually mention something about their occupation and relationship status (wife, mother, single, etc.). It comes up in discussions on why/how we choose to hang out with certain people. It comes up a LOT on other discussion boards, where a lot of people approach subjects with the X ( as a hispanic, female, single parent, or whatever) perspective. Last, in coversations about where we prefer to live and hang out, I don't care what race my neighbors are, I want close access to nice bars, bike trails, pools, and non-chain restaurants.
posted by sixcolors at 8:34 PM on June 4, 2008

Maxwell, we learned about the Cass model in one of my grad school classes. I found it very interesting! Yeah, I think a lot of lgbt folks get stuck in stage 5. There are times that I try to set my lgbt friends straight, no pun intended, that they more than their sexual orientation.
posted by sixcolors at 8:37 PM on June 4, 2008

I know this stuff is important in our society, but that doesn’t mean it has to be important to ME.

You're fine. Society is crazy.

I sometimes get strange looks when I say I’m searching for a partner who is outgoing, liberal, likes sports, and likes the same type of music/food/movies.

Suggest that you add "doesn't identify or view as overwhelmingly important divisive race and gender characterizations" to your mental list.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 8:37 PM on June 4, 2008

On myspace

There's your problem.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 8:38 PM on June 4, 2008 [4 favorites]

You sound less messed up than most people, to me. Don't assume that most people, by mere virtue of being "average", are not messed up.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 9:35 PM on June 4, 2008

I'm going to agree with the people who say it's the presentation and not the content that's your problem. Particularly the whole bit about you not identifying as strongly with your race/gender - you know, that's cool and all, except, um, reality doesn't work that way. Because of cultural upbringing, an Asian male sports fan who's outgoing, and liberal is going to be a very different person from a white female sports fan who is outgoing, liberal, and likes all the same music, food, and movies, you know? (Although they obviously have a lot in common and may very well make good partners if they're both heterosexual, it's true!) You don't need to define yourself around these differences, but not acknowledging that they create very wide disparities in people's experiences is naive.

I am sure there are people out there who identify more by their interests than their gender/race and do so in a balanced way, but in all honesty, I read what you wrote and instantly thought, "Wow, I bet people are disturbed because she makes them feel like she thinks she's more enlightened than them." Your comment on your lgbt friends and the Cass model also made me cringe - lovely overtones of, "Yeah, I tried to teach my gay friends all about their complex psychosocial issues which I have never been through and how to overcome them, but they wouldn't listen to me, silly gay people."

Then I took a look at some of your other askmes, and often got a similar vibe - if you're anything in person like you are as a writer, you come off as blunt yet vague, judgmental of other people, and pompous as hell. I'm not saying you're actually like that deep down inside, but that's what's coming across.

Look, I do sympathize - I have to self-censor myself for "I'm better than you tralalalala!" all the freaking time. Utter failure at life helps a lot, but I don't recommend that as a therapy. But seriously, I think your self-identity is fine - it's how you're projecting that's causing all the confusion and drama.
posted by bettafish at 10:15 PM on June 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

If a lot of others' "self-definition" is online, I'd suggest you don't pay too much attention to it.

In an internet discussion, people might emphasise that they're asian or gay or a single parent or whatever, just to claim a privileged perspective on the matter or explain where they're coming from (because you have no visual cues to pick up on).

In profiles on myspace or other social nerdwanking sites, gender, orientation, relationship status etc might be listed if the person is open to forming relationships, or maybe just as general background information. It doesn't necessarily mean that they identify strongly with any of those things. Once again, no visual / behavioural cues. (Personally, I leave that stuff off my profiles because either I'm interacting with ppl I know IRL, or else it's none of interweb strangers' damn business!)

You might also be confusing (at times) 'identity' as plain & simple biographical facts (such as you might put on your tax form) as opposed to aspects of 'identity' that might inform one's worldview - say, being a christian or a marine or a twin or whatever.

Also, people sometimes lie or obfuscate. "I have steel ovaries" under 'Gender' in my profile here does not mean I am female, for example.
posted by UbuRoivas at 10:21 PM on June 4, 2008

You're not fucked up, but I think you do need to be sensitive to the fact if you are regularly getting strange looks from your peers you either need to change how you word things, or change your peers.

I found when I started talking about going traveling that I could get into a good conversation if I go on the lines of "It's something I think I should do while I still can" but the direction of "I want to change me whole lifestyle" just didn't carry as well.

There is a fine line between interesting conversation, and crazy talk. And it depends on context (particularly, the other person involved), so when people say what do you look for in a girl they might mean blonde, brunette or redhead and less on the complex socio-emotional makeup.

I'm not saying you should change your values, or stop seeking what you want, but as well as been self-aware you need to be aware of the groups your operating in, and try to keep some common ground in a conversation so as not to alienate the person you are chatting with.
posted by paulfreeman at 3:20 AM on June 5, 2008

Particularly the whole bit about you not identifying as strongly with your race/gender - you know, that's cool and all, except, um, reality doesn't work that way. Because of cultural upbringing, an Asian male sports fan who's outgoing, and liberal is going to be a very different person from a white female sports fan who is outgoing, liberal, and likes all the same music, food, and movies, you know? (Although they obviously have a lot in common and may very well make good partners if they're both heterosexual, it's true!) You don't need to define yourself around these differences, but not acknowledging that they create very wide disparities in people's experiences is naive.

But, what if that white female grew up in Japan? Or, more common, what if that Asian male grew up in a white neighborhood, or was even adopted by a white family?

I know that race impacts life experience, but I think people tend to over exaggerate the social distance between races.

Your comment on your lgbt friends and the Cass model also made me cringe - lovely overtones of, "Yeah, I tried to teach my gay friends all about their complex psychosocial issues which I have never been through and how to overcome them, but they wouldn't listen to me, silly gay people."

I'm not straight either, it makes me even more confused how some lgbt people remain in "stage 5" forever.

I am sure there are people out there who identify more by their interests than their gender/race and do so in a balanced way, but in all honesty, I read what you wrote and instantly thought, "Wow, I bet people are disturbed because she makes them feel like she thinks she's more enlightened than them."

That's really unfortunate that some people think that because I refuse to be solely defined by my race/gender that I am being snobby or trying to come across as enlightened (I'm not).

I'm not saying you should change your values, or stop seeking what you want, but as well as been self-aware you need to be aware of the groups your operating in, and try to keep some common ground in a conversation so as not to alienate the person you are chatting with.

I will definately take this into consideration.
posted by sixcolors at 6:03 AM on June 5, 2008

someone who has a nice job, who is the same race, and super attractive

these strike me as being worse things to be looking for. They exude a certain amount of closed mindedness. Clearly you're far more enlightened than your accusers and people can be pretty critical of stuff they don't understand.this could be the reason you have trouble building rapport, but tbh I wouldnt be that bothered about it. People who cant appreciate different viewpoints, even if they dont agree with them, aren't worth having rapport with. if you have to hide aspects of yourself, whats the point?
posted by browolf at 2:40 PM on June 6, 2008

someone who has a nice job, who is the same race, and super attractive

these strike me as being worse things to be looking for.

Except that's the cultural norm in most of China and India. You may not like it, but plenty of people do.
posted by GuyZero at 2:59 PM on June 6, 2008