Is belief a requirement for baptism?
May 31, 2008 8:51 AM Subscribe
How can a non-believer be most expediently baptized?
This is the situation:
A non-believer [me] wishes to marry a strongly devout eastern orthodox girl.
In an eastern orthodox church.
This cannot happen [as I understand things, which is admittedly not very well] if I have never been baptized. I think that *ideally* I would be a member of the church, but that allowances can be made up to but not including a past history devoid of immersion in water by men in robes.
She's a very sweet girl and would never insist on anything that made me uncomfortable. But. She has confessed that she finds the idea of a marriage without the blessing of the church to be 'kind of meaningless' which sounds way worse when I write it out here. I think I'm not the best at translating these concepts into english, but I'm coming at this as someone who doesn't understand / believe in all of the theological implications of churchy ceremonies. As best I can reckon, there's [something] that happens that makes us as a couple closer in the eyes of [god], so hey!
I'd be a jerk to say I didn't want that for her [us].
So - the actual question[s]:
-wikipedia tells me that any christian church that isn't mormon will provide what would be deemed a 'valid' baptism in the eyes of the eastern orthodox church. Is that right?
-would I, at any point in the baptism, be required to say that I believe in god? I think that the water is supposed to work its magic whether I believe or not [or else what is happening in infant baptisms?], so would I have any luck as an adult in finding someone to do this to a non-believer?
-what is the simplest way to get this done? I'd really rather not join the church she attends [I'll be spending lots of time with these people, and I'd like to avoid feeling like I'd lied to everyone or something everytime I saw them...]
-what am I forgetting to ask?
Yes, I'm sure. That the marriage is happening is non-negotiable. She's super. She makes me want to be as super as she somehow thinks I am. I want to do this thing for her, and I'm not afraid of getting dunked in the name of love.
Just to keep any naysayers at bay.
Oh. And I live in western Canada, and I'm willing to explore options in bc, alberta, or saskatchewan.
This is the situation:
A non-believer [me] wishes to marry a strongly devout eastern orthodox girl.
In an eastern orthodox church.
This cannot happen [as I understand things, which is admittedly not very well] if I have never been baptized. I think that *ideally* I would be a member of the church, but that allowances can be made up to but not including a past history devoid of immersion in water by men in robes.
She's a very sweet girl and would never insist on anything that made me uncomfortable. But. She has confessed that she finds the idea of a marriage without the blessing of the church to be 'kind of meaningless' which sounds way worse when I write it out here. I think I'm not the best at translating these concepts into english, but I'm coming at this as someone who doesn't understand / believe in all of the theological implications of churchy ceremonies. As best I can reckon, there's [something] that happens that makes us as a couple closer in the eyes of [god], so hey!
I'd be a jerk to say I didn't want that for her [us].
So - the actual question[s]:
-wikipedia tells me that any christian church that isn't mormon will provide what would be deemed a 'valid' baptism in the eyes of the eastern orthodox church. Is that right?
-would I, at any point in the baptism, be required to say that I believe in god? I think that the water is supposed to work its magic whether I believe or not [or else what is happening in infant baptisms?], so would I have any luck as an adult in finding someone to do this to a non-believer?
-what is the simplest way to get this done? I'd really rather not join the church she attends [I'll be spending lots of time with these people, and I'd like to avoid feeling like I'd lied to everyone or something everytime I saw them...]
-what am I forgetting to ask?
Yes, I'm sure. That the marriage is happening is non-negotiable. She's super. She makes me want to be as super as she somehow thinks I am. I want to do this thing for her, and I'm not afraid of getting dunked in the name of love.
Just to keep any naysayers at bay.
Oh. And I live in western Canada, and I'm willing to explore options in bc, alberta, or saskatchewan.
Back where I used to live, one church publicly advertised their "baptism nights" (Thursdays! 7pm!), and if I remember correctly (from their flyer), they wanted you to come and make a public statement of your belief (or at least say that you were trying to believe) to whomever was there getting baptized, too.
I would suggest calling local churches saying that you've decided you need to be baptized. There is a decent chance, being an adult, that they will ask for a reason (or at least try to engage you in a discussion about it). But, you could probably say that it's in hopes that you will find god or something, rather than saying outright that you believe. I don't know how many evangelical Christians you've got up in western Canada, but I'd try and steer clear of them. Just call around. Good luck.
posted by phunniemee at 9:05 AM on May 31, 2008
I would suggest calling local churches saying that you've decided you need to be baptized. There is a decent chance, being an adult, that they will ask for a reason (or at least try to engage you in a discussion about it). But, you could probably say that it's in hopes that you will find god or something, rather than saying outright that you believe. I don't know how many evangelical Christians you've got up in western Canada, but I'd try and steer clear of them. Just call around. Good luck.
posted by phunniemee at 9:05 AM on May 31, 2008
Flunkie: as I understand it, this is primarily so they can get married in the church (right?)
I know lots of couples who have lied about being Catholic/done a rushed, meaningless baptism to get to get married in the pretty building of their choice (or their parents' choice).
posted by phunniemee at 9:07 AM on May 31, 2008
I know lots of couples who have lied about being Catholic/done a rushed, meaningless baptism to get to get married in the pretty building of their choice (or their parents' choice).
posted by phunniemee at 9:07 AM on May 31, 2008
Difficult. I'm sure you do already understand that while for you, this baptism thing might seem like a technicality, for priests and vicars and pastors - you know, the people who actually have the ability to do it for you - it's a very serious and solemn undertaking. From what I've seen in various Christian churches, to be baptised as an adult you'd certainly need to say you believed in God; but more than that - you'd need to be an active churchmember, visibly living your beliefs, for at least months and possibly years before you'd have the opportunity to be baptised.
Now here's the thing. I've been baptised twice (long story...), once as an infant in the Roman Catholic church, and once as an adult in a mainstream Protestant church that doesn't recognise the validity of infant baptism. But despite having twice as many baptisms as the regular allowance, I don't have any documentation to prove either of them.
As an infant Catholic my parents would have been presented with a baptismal certificate; three decades, several moves, and a parental divorce later, it was lost a long time ago.
As an adult Protestant there was no documentation at all.
So if, say, I wanted to marry a nice girl in an Eastern Orthodox church, how would I prove that I was baptised already? I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have to. I'd just say "I was baptised as in infant in the Roman Catholic church" or "I was baptised in church XXX in 1994." I strongly doubt anyone would ask for paperwork.
So listen, if you're going to cheat on this (and trying to get baptised while not believing in Christianity is a major bit of cheating) why not just claim to be baptised already?
The great things about infant baptism are that: lots of people have had it done to them because their non-church-going parents thought it would be "nice", it's quite reasonable to not know about it and then "discover" the fact later on, and best of all, it implies absolutely nothing about what you actually believe.
I can't believe I'm suggesting this. I'd certainly go to hell for it if it existed. But a discreet word with your Mother so she can "remind" you that she dragged you into a church for a quick dip when you were two weeks old might just be the best course of action...
posted by standbythree at 9:17 AM on May 31, 2008 [2 favorites]
Now here's the thing. I've been baptised twice (long story...), once as an infant in the Roman Catholic church, and once as an adult in a mainstream Protestant church that doesn't recognise the validity of infant baptism. But despite having twice as many baptisms as the regular allowance, I don't have any documentation to prove either of them.
As an infant Catholic my parents would have been presented with a baptismal certificate; three decades, several moves, and a parental divorce later, it was lost a long time ago.
As an adult Protestant there was no documentation at all.
So if, say, I wanted to marry a nice girl in an Eastern Orthodox church, how would I prove that I was baptised already? I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have to. I'd just say "I was baptised as in infant in the Roman Catholic church" or "I was baptised in church XXX in 1994." I strongly doubt anyone would ask for paperwork.
So listen, if you're going to cheat on this (and trying to get baptised while not believing in Christianity is a major bit of cheating) why not just claim to be baptised already?
The great things about infant baptism are that: lots of people have had it done to them because their non-church-going parents thought it would be "nice", it's quite reasonable to not know about it and then "discover" the fact later on, and best of all, it implies absolutely nothing about what you actually believe.
I can't believe I'm suggesting this. I'd certainly go to hell for it if it existed. But a discreet word with your Mother so she can "remind" you that she dragged you into a church for a quick dip when you were two weeks old might just be the best course of action...
posted by standbythree at 9:17 AM on May 31, 2008 [2 favorites]
"I'd just say 'I was baptised as in infant in the Roman Catholic church' or 'I was baptised in church XXX in 1994.' I strongly doubt anyone would ask for paperwork."
In the Roman Catholic Church at least they would. You'd write to the church where you were baptized, they'd check the register and send you a certified record.
If you weren't baptized in a Catholic church they'd ask for sworn statements under oath.
Finally, at the wedding you'll be expected to make, I believe, a profession of faith. Surely it is a bad idea to do so and lie in the process on the very day you make your wedding vows.
Is there some reason you can't investigate her faith with the intention of trying to see honestly if you can be persuaded and honestly baptized?
posted by Jahaza at 9:27 AM on May 31, 2008
In the Roman Catholic Church at least they would. You'd write to the church where you were baptized, they'd check the register and send you a certified record.
If you weren't baptized in a Catholic church they'd ask for sworn statements under oath.
Finally, at the wedding you'll be expected to make, I believe, a profession of faith. Surely it is a bad idea to do so and lie in the process on the very day you make your wedding vows.
Is there some reason you can't investigate her faith with the intention of trying to see honestly if you can be persuaded and honestly baptized?
posted by Jahaza at 9:27 AM on May 31, 2008
That is... If you weren't baptized in a Catholic Church or another Church that keeps records.
posted by Jahaza at 9:29 AM on May 31, 2008
posted by Jahaza at 9:29 AM on May 31, 2008
And in case you're going to rely on Wikipedia, I don't think that you read it right, or maybe you're not reading the same article as me ("Baptism").
You say "wikipedia tells me that any christian church that isn't mormon will provide what would be deemed a 'valid' baptism in the eyes of the eastern orthodox church."
Wikipedia says:
Later:
I don't see the article saying anything at all about Eastern churches' stance on Mormon baptisms. On the other hand, there's this:
And furthermore, it seems like even if they would accept a baptism from another church, they might require you to do something additionally anyway (chrismation or confession).
Again, though, I would recommend actually calling them up and asking what the deal is, rather than relying on Wikipedia. They're going to be the ones marrying you, and you might be in for a rude surprise if you don't know what they actually require. "But Wikipedia said" is probably very unlikely to convince them otherwise.
posted by Flunkie at 9:31 AM on May 31, 2008
You say "wikipedia tells me that any christian church that isn't mormon will provide what would be deemed a 'valid' baptism in the eyes of the eastern orthodox church."
Wikipedia says:
The Catholic Church has always recognized the validity of both baptism and chrismation in the Churches of Eastern Christianity. On the other hand, it has explicitly denied the validity of baptism conferred in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day SaintsI'm guessing that you might have misread the "it" in the second sentence as being "Eastern Christianity", whereas I'm fairly certain it is actually "the Catholic Church".
Later:
In the eyes of the Catholic Church, the baptism conferred by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is invalidCatholic, not Eastern.
I don't see the article saying anything at all about Eastern churches' stance on Mormon baptisms. On the other hand, there's this:
Practice in the Eastern Orthodox Church for converts from other communions is not uniform, but even a convert received without administration of baptism is considered to have his previous baptism retroactively filled with grace by whatever form is used to accept him, such as by chrismation or confession. The exact procedure is dependent on local canons and is the subject of some controversy.So it seems like it very much depends on her particular church, not on the mere fact that it's an Eastern church.
And furthermore, it seems like even if they would accept a baptism from another church, they might require you to do something additionally anyway (chrismation or confession).
Again, though, I would recommend actually calling them up and asking what the deal is, rather than relying on Wikipedia. They're going to be the ones marrying you, and you might be in for a rude surprise if you don't know what they actually require. "But Wikipedia said" is probably very unlikely to convince them otherwise.
posted by Flunkie at 9:31 AM on May 31, 2008
I'm an atheist, raised catholic, but I know a lot of religious people and theological students.
I think belief is what makes this ritual valid. Theologically, baptism is usually seen in the context of original sin. The eastern orthodox church, like many others, requires confirmation for adults (even if baptized as children). You could think of it as a two part process. In short, I don't think you can be an adult member of the church without professing your belief (and more philosophically, without really believing).
She has confessed that she finds the idea of a marriage without the blessing of the church to be 'kind of meaningless' which sounds way worse when I write it out here.
To put this another way, your girlfriend's stance seems internally contradictory. She wants to be spiritually married to you according to the rules of her church, and that's fine. But the rules of her church mandate you carry out a ritual whose legitimacy is based on your belief. If you don't believe, she can't, by the rules she subscribes to, get married to you. If you don't believe, the marriage is "kind of meaningless" no matter what.
So the only reason to do this would be to have the wedding in a church, which is reason enough. If that's all though, you'll probably have to lie to the clergy. I'm not so sure that's a good idea, talk to her about it.
All that aside, congratulations!
posted by phrontist at 9:38 AM on May 31, 2008
I think belief is what makes this ritual valid. Theologically, baptism is usually seen in the context of original sin. The eastern orthodox church, like many others, requires confirmation for adults (even if baptized as children). You could think of it as a two part process. In short, I don't think you can be an adult member of the church without professing your belief (and more philosophically, without really believing).
She has confessed that she finds the idea of a marriage without the blessing of the church to be 'kind of meaningless' which sounds way worse when I write it out here.
To put this another way, your girlfriend's stance seems internally contradictory. She wants to be spiritually married to you according to the rules of her church, and that's fine. But the rules of her church mandate you carry out a ritual whose legitimacy is based on your belief. If you don't believe, she can't, by the rules she subscribes to, get married to you. If you don't believe, the marriage is "kind of meaningless" no matter what.
So the only reason to do this would be to have the wedding in a church, which is reason enough. If that's all though, you'll probably have to lie to the clergy. I'm not so sure that's a good idea, talk to her about it.
All that aside, congratulations!
posted by phrontist at 9:38 AM on May 31, 2008
My dad's family is Eastern Orthodox (he converted to Roman Catholic to marry my mom back in the very late 1950s). Before you can marry in an Orthodox church, you will be required to attend a short series of premarital classes. The Church also requires that non-Orthodox Christians must provide a certificate indicating that they were baptized in the name of the Holy Trinity before the couple can be married in an Orthodox ceremony. I'm no theological expert, but I think if you do find a place that gives "quicky" baptisms, you should not mention your non-belief to your fiancee's priest when you meet with him prior to your wedding.
posted by Oriole Adams at 9:59 AM on May 31, 2008
posted by Oriole Adams at 9:59 AM on May 31, 2008
Baptism is a sacred occasion for those involved. Trying to have a sham baptism performed is showing great disrespect to those people. I no longer buy into the religion thing, but I'd still be offended by someone doing this; imagine what a devout believer would feel.
I highly suggest that you respect other people's traditions and beliefs and not make a mockery of one of the most important sacraments of an ancient relgion.
posted by Justinian at 10:11 AM on May 31, 2008 [5 favorites]
I highly suggest that you respect other people's traditions and beliefs and not make a mockery of one of the most important sacraments of an ancient relgion.
posted by Justinian at 10:11 AM on May 31, 2008 [5 favorites]
Do not lie. Why? Because (presumably) your fiancee knows you were not baptised. Lying would force her to be complicit in that lie, which is not a fair position to put her in.
I agree with everyone above who says to call the Church.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 10:11 AM on May 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
I agree with everyone above who says to call the Church.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 10:11 AM on May 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
to be perfectly frank, be prepared to either shamelessly lie to the guy who'll baptize you or to move your wedding ceremony elsewhere, like, city hall
posted by matteo at 10:14 AM on May 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by matteo at 10:14 AM on May 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
It's nice that she wants the blessing of the church, but she's not going to get it if she marries a non-believer and the people who give the blessing are aware of your status. You are going to have to lie either explicitly or implicitly to make this happen. You are either going to lie about being baptized, or lie in order to become baptized, and then you'll have to lie again when the Orthodox priest inevitably asks you about your faith before the wedding. In some other denomination, you might be able to mumble and nod and get through it, but not with Orthodoxy.
Your fiancee cannot have a real blessing on this wedding, because they won't bless unless you come under very false pretenses.
If you insist on going through with this, let me encourage to blatantly lie about having been baptized, rather than lie in order to get baptized. That way you are only making a mockery of one sacrament (the wedding) rather than two (the wedding and the baptism).
On second thought, let me encourage you not to go through with this. If your fiancee wants to marry a non-believer, non-church weddings are part of the package.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 10:46 AM on May 31, 2008 [7 favorites]
Your fiancee cannot have a real blessing on this wedding, because they won't bless unless you come under very false pretenses.
If you insist on going through with this, let me encourage to blatantly lie about having been baptized, rather than lie in order to get baptized. That way you are only making a mockery of one sacrament (the wedding) rather than two (the wedding and the baptism).
On second thought, let me encourage you not to go through with this. If your fiancee wants to marry a non-believer, non-church weddings are part of the package.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 10:46 AM on May 31, 2008 [7 favorites]
As the son of a baptist minister, I assure you that to be baptized in any church that I've ever been to you would most certainly need to confess your faith in God.
I agree with Pater above, don't make a mockery of something her religion holds so sacred.
posted by Precision at 10:56 AM on May 31, 2008
I agree with Pater above, don't make a mockery of something her religion holds so sacred.
posted by Precision at 10:56 AM on May 31, 2008
It's a shame, for these purposes, that you were not baptized as an infant. Adult baptism generally is itself generally a profession of belief, and a rebirth as a Christian as an adult. In that baptism wikipedia article, read what the different churches believe about baptism and think about seriously looking a pastor in the face and lying about this. Not cool.
That said, if you really want to get married in her church, maybe you can find a way to do this ethically, depending on whether your personal beliefs include any sort of faith in any sort of higher power?
posted by desuetude at 11:02 AM on May 31, 2008
That said, if you really want to get married in her church, maybe you can find a way to do this ethically, depending on whether your personal beliefs include any sort of faith in any sort of higher power?
posted by desuetude at 11:02 AM on May 31, 2008
Yes, you would be required to lie if you are baptised without believing in what you are doing.
While scouring wikis, did you see the Orthodox wiki? It says, in part, "Persons coming to Orthodoxy from other denominations, and who had been baptized with water in the name of the Trinity, are generally not received by holy baptism, but instead through holy chrismation, after which their former baptism is deemed to be efficacious."
If your fiance is devout, then she probably wants the Church to honestly recognize her union, and wants to believe that your marriage reflects the Holy Trinity. As a devout person, that will be more important to her than standing in a white dress at the alter. You might ask her if that's what she meant, because in that case she's asking that you believe -- not that you lie.
posted by Houstonian at 11:23 AM on May 31, 2008
While scouring wikis, did you see the Orthodox wiki? It says, in part, "Persons coming to Orthodoxy from other denominations, and who had been baptized with water in the name of the Trinity, are generally not received by holy baptism, but instead through holy chrismation, after which their former baptism is deemed to be efficacious."
If your fiance is devout, then she probably wants the Church to honestly recognize her union, and wants to believe that your marriage reflects the Holy Trinity. As a devout person, that will be more important to her than standing in a white dress at the alter. You might ask her if that's what she meant, because in that case she's asking that you believe -- not that you lie.
posted by Houstonian at 11:23 AM on May 31, 2008
standbythree, if you wanted a document, I bet that the church that did your infant baptism has a record of it.
posted by mmascolino at 11:35 AM on May 31, 2008
posted by mmascolino at 11:35 AM on May 31, 2008
My brother, a devout atheist, let's call it agnostic, married a very devoted Roman Catholic, in Rome. We're talking a proclamation from the pope himself read by the priest at the wedding. In the pre-marriage counseling, the priest told him his current state of belief didn't matter, all that mattered was that he had been baptized with the proper sacrament. That, and the commitment to raise any children as Catholics, was all that mattered.
posted by StickyCarpet at 11:49 AM on May 31, 2008
posted by StickyCarpet at 11:49 AM on May 31, 2008
As already suggested and explicated, don't do this deceitfully. If you love her, if want to marry her, if she wants to marry you, and (I presume) her family and well as she want a church wedding for the two of you, then I would suggest jointly paying a visit to the priest that would do the ceremony. It won't be the first time he's seen or heard of this situation. (They made a movie of this involving the Greek Orthodox Church, "My Big Fat Greek Wedding".) I suspect the priest will suggest some classes and a private or public baptism in the church. On the theory that even the pope must have a little doubt now and then, perhaps you can go through with that with reasonable intellectual honesty, even if some of your religious doubts persist. On the other hand, if you can't, perhaps you should give up the whole idea, or, as suggested, get married outside the church.
posted by beagle at 11:54 AM on May 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by beagle at 11:54 AM on May 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
My brother, a unbaptized non-believer was married in a Catholic ceremony to his baptized Catholic wife without any lies or deceptions. There is a procedure to do this in the Catholic church and there might be one in the Eastern Orthodox as well. Instead of calling them up, I would actually visit the church with your wife-to-be and talk to the priest(?).
posted by jedrek at 12:56 PM on May 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by jedrek at 12:56 PM on May 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
What about the nearest local Unitarian Church?
"That church accepted me as I was, a non-believer in traditional theology, but also challenged me to keep open to new possibilities in religion, society, and myself. It gave me direction, a sense of purpose, and hope. I chose to go into the UU ministry because I wanted to help make the world a better place, and to keep growing intellectually, morally, spiritually."
posted by iviken at 2:00 PM on May 31, 2008
"That church accepted me as I was, a non-believer in traditional theology, but also challenged me to keep open to new possibilities in religion, society, and myself. It gave me direction, a sense of purpose, and hope. I chose to go into the UU ministry because I wanted to help make the world a better place, and to keep growing intellectually, morally, spiritually."
posted by iviken at 2:00 PM on May 31, 2008
In the Roman Catholic Church at least they would. You'd write to the church where you were baptized, they'd check the register and send you a certified record.
A datapoint --- when my wife and I were married in a Roman Catholic Church, the church did require written documentation of my baptism. I would expect an Eastern Orthodox church to be similarly scrupulous.
posted by jayder at 2:07 PM on May 31, 2008
A datapoint --- when my wife and I were married in a Roman Catholic Church, the church did require written documentation of my baptism. I would expect an Eastern Orthodox church to be similarly scrupulous.
posted by jayder at 2:07 PM on May 31, 2008
Presbyterian is out. I was baptized at age 7 and I remember having to repeat something like an oath professing what I believed (which at that time was whatever my parents told me to say). I also got a nifty certificate and my own Bible, though. Now I'm a Buddhist, FWIW.
I realize your fiancee is devout, and even if she wasn't, is probably experiencing tons of pressure from her family to marry in the church. I think it comes down to whether she values honesty or tradition more. I don't personally think you're losing anything by lying to the priest, as long as you're not lying to your fiancee. It's also possible you'd find a renegade Eastern Orthodox priest who would marry you in a neutral location. My mother and stepfather were married by a Catholic priest in a church of a different denomination, because they refused to have their previous marriages annulled (and thus could not be married in the Catholic church).
posted by desjardins at 2:27 PM on May 31, 2008
I realize your fiancee is devout, and even if she wasn't, is probably experiencing tons of pressure from her family to marry in the church. I think it comes down to whether she values honesty or tradition more. I don't personally think you're losing anything by lying to the priest, as long as you're not lying to your fiancee. It's also possible you'd find a renegade Eastern Orthodox priest who would marry you in a neutral location. My mother and stepfather were married by a Catholic priest in a church of a different denomination, because they refused to have their previous marriages annulled (and thus could not be married in the Catholic church).
posted by desjardins at 2:27 PM on May 31, 2008
iviken, the Unitarian church doesn't believe in the doctrine of the Trinity. If they did perform baptisms commonly (which most don't) they would not be recognized by the Eastern Orthodox church.
posted by desuetude at 3:09 PM on May 31, 2008
posted by desuetude at 3:09 PM on May 31, 2008
(Oh, and there are Unitarian Christians, but the Unitarian Universalist Association includes non-creedal, i.e. not strictly Christian, congregations.)
posted by desuetude at 3:13 PM on May 31, 2008
posted by desuetude at 3:13 PM on May 31, 2008
Reading your question gives me the creeping willies. Looks like most of what I want to say has been said, but please don't get a sham baptism. It's insulting to those who hold it sacred.
posted by lostburner at 3:25 PM on May 31, 2008
posted by lostburner at 3:25 PM on May 31, 2008
There's probably an ethical way out of this for you. When you are asked by the baptismal priest (if it's even a priest, the Catholics of late have been using Deacons) "do you believe in God the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth?" They aren't defining who those guys are, or what that means. Just, do you believe in them. Now since faith is inherently unknowable and different for each individual, isn't it possible that you can, for the purposes of this ceremony, choose to call whatever your beliefs as to the nature of life, the universe and everything are, "god/faith/holy spirit"?
Also, don't take the naysayers to heart. If there is a God, he will understand the contents of your heart on judgment day regardless of whether you were baptized or not. And, if there isn't a god, then it doesn't really matter. If you go and get baptized because you love this girl and want to make her happy, and you go through the process respectful of the feelings and beliefs of everyone involved, that's the point. You do no damage to them by respecting their beliefs, even if they aren't your own.
You are, in effect, abiding by the rules of the house. A spiritual removing of your cap indoors.
posted by gjc at 3:52 PM on May 31, 2008
Also, don't take the naysayers to heart. If there is a God, he will understand the contents of your heart on judgment day regardless of whether you were baptized or not. And, if there isn't a god, then it doesn't really matter. If you go and get baptized because you love this girl and want to make her happy, and you go through the process respectful of the feelings and beliefs of everyone involved, that's the point. You do no damage to them by respecting their beliefs, even if they aren't your own.
You are, in effect, abiding by the rules of the house. A spiritual removing of your cap indoors.
posted by gjc at 3:52 PM on May 31, 2008
From the standpoint of someone who's a serious inquirer into Orthodoxy and has been attending catechism classes...
If your girlfriend is serious about her faith, having a church wedding with someone who has not (at the very least) been baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is out altogether. When your girlfriend says she finds the idea of a marriage without the blessing of the church to be 'kind of meaningless', it's not only that, but as an Orthodox Christian, you're no longer allowed to receive communion. Basically, if she's as devout as you say, I can't see why she would even consider going through with a non-church wedding, especially considering the seriousness with which the Orthodox view the Eucharist.
And as for lying in order to get baptized somewhere else, don't. Just don't. Not only is it dishonest, you're making a mockery of your girlfriend's (and many others') sincerely-held beliefs.
posted by flod logic at 4:08 PM on May 31, 2008
If your girlfriend is serious about her faith, having a church wedding with someone who has not (at the very least) been baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is out altogether. When your girlfriend says she finds the idea of a marriage without the blessing of the church to be 'kind of meaningless', it's not only that, but as an Orthodox Christian, you're no longer allowed to receive communion. Basically, if she's as devout as you say, I can't see why she would even consider going through with a non-church wedding, especially considering the seriousness with which the Orthodox view the Eucharist.
And as for lying in order to get baptized somewhere else, don't. Just don't. Not only is it dishonest, you're making a mockery of your girlfriend's (and many others') sincerely-held beliefs.
posted by flod logic at 4:08 PM on May 31, 2008
I'm a mainline, U.S. Protestant clergy member. Our practice of adult baptism requires one to profess belief in "God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit" (aka The Holy Trinity). The questions asked are literally, "Do you believe in God?" "Do you believe in Jesus Christ?" "Do you believe in the Holy Spirit?". We do not require membership or baptism for the service of marriage, so we differ from Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism in that way.
Bottom line: I would always welcome a conversation with someone in your situation to help you determine where you are in your belief system, if there are opportunities for spiritual growth for you, and to assist if possible. I would not just hand you a baptismal certificate, but if I sensed your genuine care and concern and could help in some way, I would make every effort to do so. All clergy are not built the same, but most are approachable with honesty. I agree with others: contact the Orthodox priest first and talk over the situation. Ask for help and be honest. No promises, but maybe it's less traumatic than you think.
Peace.
PS: There's no magic that happens at baptism. It is a recognition of the grace of God working in the life of the baptized person and a welcoming into the family of faith.
posted by rdauphin at 6:08 PM on May 31, 2008
Bottom line: I would always welcome a conversation with someone in your situation to help you determine where you are in your belief system, if there are opportunities for spiritual growth for you, and to assist if possible. I would not just hand you a baptismal certificate, but if I sensed your genuine care and concern and could help in some way, I would make every effort to do so. All clergy are not built the same, but most are approachable with honesty. I agree with others: contact the Orthodox priest first and talk over the situation. Ask for help and be honest. No promises, but maybe it's less traumatic than you think.
Peace.
PS: There's no magic that happens at baptism. It is a recognition of the grace of God working in the life of the baptized person and a welcoming into the family of faith.
posted by rdauphin at 6:08 PM on May 31, 2008
Dear anonymous,
I am a certified and registered member of the clergy, and like you I do not believe. I am legally entitled to perform a baptism ceremony, and would be happy to perform this service, for free, over the phone or via email. The really good news here is that we could both be absolutely guilt free about the whole thing, as you wouldn't be lying to me or disappointing me, and I wouldn't feel that either of us were going to hell because of this.
And I even have a certificate I can fill in and send you if you feel that is necessary. I agree with standbythree above, though, in that the need to "prove it" with a paper is highly unlikely.
Email in profile.
posted by Meatbomb at 6:32 PM on May 31, 2008 [3 favorites]
I am a certified and registered member of the clergy, and like you I do not believe. I am legally entitled to perform a baptism ceremony, and would be happy to perform this service, for free, over the phone or via email. The really good news here is that we could both be absolutely guilt free about the whole thing, as you wouldn't be lying to me or disappointing me, and I wouldn't feel that either of us were going to hell because of this.
And I even have a certificate I can fill in and send you if you feel that is necessary. I agree with standbythree above, though, in that the need to "prove it" with a paper is highly unlikely.
Email in profile.
posted by Meatbomb at 6:32 PM on May 31, 2008 [3 favorites]
Frankly, I'm not convinced by the "don't make a mockery of baptism" crowd.
I agree that he shouldn't be deceitful with his betrothed. But if he makes it clear that he doesn't believe in this, and that getting dunked in water will not cause him to believe in this, but that he is willing to lie to her church if that's what she wants, and as it turns out she is fine with that, then he should be too.
It's her belief, not his, that has to be satisfied. And her belief is not necessarily one hundred percent consistent with that of her church, despite the probable fact that she'd say otherwise. People disagree with their religions' official lines all the time, sometimes in ways that could be viewed as hypocritical (such as a Catholic getting an abortion, or a Jew eating a ham sandwich, or an evangelical voting sanely, or, not coincidentally, an Eastern Orthodox not being OK with being married outside of the church, but being OK with lying about belief in order to get baptized in order to get married in the church).
If any "true believers" are offended by that, well, that's regrettable, but too bad. If his loved one is OK with this, then he shouldn't have to throw his love away just because some stranger would theoretically be offended if he knew the actual situation.
posted by Flunkie at 7:47 PM on May 31, 2008
I agree that he shouldn't be deceitful with his betrothed. But if he makes it clear that he doesn't believe in this, and that getting dunked in water will not cause him to believe in this, but that he is willing to lie to her church if that's what she wants, and as it turns out she is fine with that, then he should be too.
It's her belief, not his, that has to be satisfied. And her belief is not necessarily one hundred percent consistent with that of her church, despite the probable fact that she'd say otherwise. People disagree with their religions' official lines all the time, sometimes in ways that could be viewed as hypocritical (such as a Catholic getting an abortion, or a Jew eating a ham sandwich, or an evangelical voting sanely, or, not coincidentally, an Eastern Orthodox not being OK with being married outside of the church, but being OK with lying about belief in order to get baptized in order to get married in the church).
If any "true believers" are offended by that, well, that's regrettable, but too bad. If his loved one is OK with this, then he shouldn't have to throw his love away just because some stranger would theoretically be offended if he knew the actual situation.
posted by Flunkie at 7:47 PM on May 31, 2008
My experience with Orthodoxy is that they are, if anything, somewhat stricter about ecclesiastical matters than Catholicism is. I very much doubt that you'll be able to get the qualifications they require without confessing faith, either sincerely or otherwise. But of course, you'd better ask them, and not random strangers on the Internet.
I will add that the Orthodox take marriage very seriously: At least in a Russian Orthodox wedding, you are crowned king and queen of a vassal kingdom under suzerainty of God. If you don't mean to pay any such allegiance ... well, what if Kosovo withdrew diplomatic recognition of the parties who sponsored and supported its declaration of statehood?
Unfortunately, your fiancee is in a rotten predicament: That of wanting to marry someone as an Orthodox, who is not Orthodox. Have cake/eat cake. You are kind and noble to look diligently for a way to ease this predicament, but I don't guess you'll be able to, unless by actually becoming convinced of Orthodox doctrine. If you can find a way, wonderful! If you can't, she will have to choose between marrying you and marrying Orthodox. That's hard, but a Christian must sometimes take up her cross.
Do all you can, ethically, but after that point I believe she must own this. (What if you were gay, and she had to make a choice between loving you or loving someone who could love her back? It would be a problem, but, crucially, it would be her problem—even if you tried to help her with it by checking yourself for traces of attraction to women.) And I agree wholeheartedly that it wouldn't be fair to her to do anything under false pretenses: Then you're creating a problem which she must bear, in the name of solving her own. And she must bear it substantially alone, since it's a conflict among religious factors that are real to her but not to you. Not an improvement on the situation.
You two have my deepest sympathy, my congratulations, and even my prayers, assuming Mormon prayers do any good :-) It's an age-old predicament, and I hope you will navigate it as graciously as any.
posted by eritain at 10:11 PM on May 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
I will add that the Orthodox take marriage very seriously: At least in a Russian Orthodox wedding, you are crowned king and queen of a vassal kingdom under suzerainty of God. If you don't mean to pay any such allegiance ... well, what if Kosovo withdrew diplomatic recognition of the parties who sponsored and supported its declaration of statehood?
Unfortunately, your fiancee is in a rotten predicament: That of wanting to marry someone as an Orthodox, who is not Orthodox. Have cake/eat cake. You are kind and noble to look diligently for a way to ease this predicament, but I don't guess you'll be able to, unless by actually becoming convinced of Orthodox doctrine. If you can find a way, wonderful! If you can't, she will have to choose between marrying you and marrying Orthodox. That's hard, but a Christian must sometimes take up her cross.
Do all you can, ethically, but after that point I believe she must own this. (What if you were gay, and she had to make a choice between loving you or loving someone who could love her back? It would be a problem, but, crucially, it would be her problem—even if you tried to help her with it by checking yourself for traces of attraction to women.) And I agree wholeheartedly that it wouldn't be fair to her to do anything under false pretenses: Then you're creating a problem which she must bear, in the name of solving her own. And she must bear it substantially alone, since it's a conflict among religious factors that are real to her but not to you. Not an improvement on the situation.
You two have my deepest sympathy, my congratulations, and even my prayers, assuming Mormon prayers do any good :-) It's an age-old predicament, and I hope you will navigate it as graciously as any.
posted by eritain at 10:11 PM on May 31, 2008 [1 favorite]
How can a non-believer be most expediently baptized?
You can not receive a baptism which is actually legitimate under the circumstances you describe without lying about whether you believe in God. In most cases you will find it quite difficult to be baptized without going through instruction and professing quite a bit of specific theology above and beyond belief in God. If they would accept some bunk, fly-by-night baptism (such as the Reverend Meatbomb's is, lamentably, in the context of validation of being a Christian, which is what this is about). You are going to have to lie to participate in a religious marriage ceremony, period. So, do it right and convert to her church, do the whole business, take classes, profess all sorts of meaningless fairytales (to you), or get out your phone book and start shopping for quick baptisms with an eye towards, what was the primary qualification again? Oh right, "expedience." A benefit of the former tack is that you might learn something about your future wife's beliefs, which you seriously need to do.
posted by nanojath at 10:46 PM on May 31, 2008
You can not receive a baptism which is actually legitimate under the circumstances you describe without lying about whether you believe in God. In most cases you will find it quite difficult to be baptized without going through instruction and professing quite a bit of specific theology above and beyond belief in God. If they would accept some bunk, fly-by-night baptism (such as the Reverend Meatbomb's is, lamentably, in the context of validation of being a Christian, which is what this is about). You are going to have to lie to participate in a religious marriage ceremony, period. So, do it right and convert to her church, do the whole business, take classes, profess all sorts of meaningless fairytales (to you), or get out your phone book and start shopping for quick baptisms with an eye towards, what was the primary qualification again? Oh right, "expedience." A benefit of the former tack is that you might learn something about your future wife's beliefs, which you seriously need to do.
posted by nanojath at 10:46 PM on May 31, 2008
I think nanojath has it. I would go to your Fiancee's church, talk to the priest, and do what needs to be done (classes? interviews? professions of faith? attending mass?) until you can legitimately be baptized in that church.
As a non-believer, this will make you INCREDIBLY uncomfortable. Do it anyway. You need to learn about her beliefs, and you need to learn how uncomfortable this sort of thing is for you.
After you're done, imagine a lifetime of exactly the same discomfort as you deal with your wife and her family. Make sure you're ready for that before you tie the knot.
posted by mmoncur at 12:58 AM on June 1, 2008
As a non-believer, this will make you INCREDIBLY uncomfortable. Do it anyway. You need to learn about her beliefs, and you need to learn how uncomfortable this sort of thing is for you.
After you're done, imagine a lifetime of exactly the same discomfort as you deal with your wife and her family. Make sure you're ready for that before you tie the knot.
posted by mmoncur at 12:58 AM on June 1, 2008
follow-up from the OP
Dear internet folks.posted by jessamyn at 6:49 AM on June 1, 2008
Thanks for giving me such a wide range of responses!
I wasn't planning on following up on this thread at all, but I feel obligated to calm the queasiness of those who find distaste in what I was asking.
My intent was not to deceive anyone. The question wasn't "I understand how this is supposed to work and wish to find a loophole", it was [supposed to be] "How does this work?"
This was an initial exploratory stab at the topic in the least awkward way I could think of, and I thought I made it clear that I was trying to *avoid* lying to anyone. I just didn't [still don't, but will I ever?] understand the theological mechanisms involved in baptisms and orthodox marriages [the bit about setting up a kingdom together under [god] seems to be the meat of the matter I'm trying to figure out -- what does that look like diagrammatically?], and I don't want people getting the wrong idea, even though I'm anonymous here. I understand that this is a touchy subject, which is why I appreciate you all taking time to voice your opinions and push me towards new paths of research.
I really am fascinated by religion, and am trying my best to learn what I can about orthodoxy in particular [because it seems to be a very positive force in my girl's life and a community in which I will soon be immersed], but it's all very confusing for me.
So yes, of course I've discussed this and will continue to discuss this with her. Yes, I will eventually discuss this with her priest [and do the pre-marriage counselling and the learn-about-the-church classes, and keep trying to learn on my own, etc], but I reeeeeally didn't want *this* conversation to be among the first I ever had with her priest. Especially going into it blind. Accidentally offending internet strangers is easier to deal with than accidentally offending a major authority figure in my girl's life.
Nobody seemed to touch on this one topic, and I know it's late to expect any more responses, but the main problem of those who were offended by my question seemed to be an assumption that I would lie about having faith to be baptized, and that baptism without faith was disrespectful of those who did have faith. I feel like I understand that, but I obviously don't - how is this different from an infant baptism? [note: I *get it* that a confirmation is a different story, but... is the idea of the baptism of a nonbelieving infant equally repugnant to the baptism of a nonbelieving adult? I think it wouldn't be and I see that you all clearly agree, but I don't understand *why*.]
Anyway. Thanks, people. Don't go to sleep thinking that some random internet guy is trying to pull one over on his fiancee/the church/Jesus in order to make things easier. Think that some guy is in a position of wanting to figure things out without lying to himself/his fiancee/the church/Jesus, and is not particularly eloquent or even sure what he's trying to find. It seems that from the majority of responses here that I am in a fundamentally untenable situation, and that compromises will need to be made.
Surprise, surprise.
OP, I can't followup at length right this second... but promise to write something longer and more specific regarding the details you post later... the basic difference between infant baptism and your situation is that since an infant can't profess faith themselves the faith of the community (and specifically their godparents) suffices... since you've reached the age of reason at which you have responsibility for your own actions (usually reckoned by Catholics at about 7 years of age) you have to profess the faith yourself.
Now the standard may be lower than you think... if we consider belief to be an act of the will and remember the prayer "Lord I believe. Help my unbelief."
posted by Jahaza at 7:16 AM on June 1, 2008
Now the standard may be lower than you think... if we consider belief to be an act of the will and remember the prayer "Lord I believe. Help my unbelief."
posted by Jahaza at 7:16 AM on June 1, 2008
Anon: there is specific theology associated with infant baptism, and it varies from denomination to denomination. A place to start, for example. Some churches don't recognize infant baptism because they deem the role of a self-conscious participation to be essential and do not consider infants capable of this.
But the bottom line is that the characterization "the water is supposed to work its magic whether I believe or not" just isn't an accurate reflection of any orthodox (in the generic, rather than the denominational sense) Christian denomination. When adults receive a Christian baptism they are going to uniformly be called upon to profess faith in God, Christ and Christian doctrine and in general the church is going to be going to some effort to make sure that you understand the meaning of the sacrament you are participating and agree with what it represents.
I pretty much read your question as how you clarified it in the follow-up. I don't think there's anything illegitimate about trying to figure out how you can honorably and honestly participate in this ceremony without professing belief in the tenets of Christianity but I honestly don't think it is possible. Representing yourself as baptized, regardless of the circumstances, is representing yourself as believing in the Christian faith.
posted by nanojath at 10:23 AM on June 1, 2008
But the bottom line is that the characterization "the water is supposed to work its magic whether I believe or not" just isn't an accurate reflection of any orthodox (in the generic, rather than the denominational sense) Christian denomination. When adults receive a Christian baptism they are going to uniformly be called upon to profess faith in God, Christ and Christian doctrine and in general the church is going to be going to some effort to make sure that you understand the meaning of the sacrament you are participating and agree with what it represents.
I pretty much read your question as how you clarified it in the follow-up. I don't think there's anything illegitimate about trying to figure out how you can honorably and honestly participate in this ceremony without professing belief in the tenets of Christianity but I honestly don't think it is possible. Representing yourself as baptized, regardless of the circumstances, is representing yourself as believing in the Christian faith.
posted by nanojath at 10:23 AM on June 1, 2008
I couldn't keep up with all the above responses, but here is an excerpt from the book "Three views on Eastern Orthodoxy and Evangelicalism." (standard disclaimer: IANAChristian, IANAPriest, etc.)
The Orthodox baptismal liturgy.
The sponsors with the child or adult...stand facing the priest. The priest asks the following question three times:
Do you renounce Stan and all his angels and all his works and all his service and all his pride?
The sponsor or adult to be baptiszed responds each time:
I do.
The priest asks the next question, likewise three times:
Have you renounced Satan?
Again the sponsor or adult to be baptized responds each time:
I have.
Then the priest says:
Breathe and spit on him. (Spit)
The priest asks three times:
Do you unite yourself to Christ?
Each time the sponsor or adult answers:
I do unite myself to Christ.
The priest then asks:
Have you united yourself to Christ?
The sponsor or adult answers:
I have united myself to Christ.
The priest asks:
Do you believe in him?
The sponsor or adult answers:
I believe in him as King and as God.
The candidate then recites the Nicene Creed.
After the recitation of the creed, the priest again asks the sponsor or adult (three times) whether they have united themselves to Christ. hen then asks them to bow down before God. The priest then leads in this prayer:
(blah blah blah, I'm not typing all that)
The priest then blesses the water by dipping the fingers of his right hand into it and tracing the sign of the cross three times. He breathes on the water and says:
(blah blah blah)
After the one being baptized is anointed with oil through the sacrament of christmation, the priest then dips a sponge in pure water and sprinkles the candidate, saying, "Thou are justfied! Thou are illuminated! Thou art sanctified! Thou art washed in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen."
And then it's over.
posted by proj08 at 12:00 PM on June 1, 2008
The Orthodox baptismal liturgy.
The sponsors with the child or adult...stand facing the priest. The priest asks the following question three times:
Do you renounce Stan and all his angels and all his works and all his service and all his pride?
The sponsor or adult to be baptiszed responds each time:
I do.
The priest asks the next question, likewise three times:
Have you renounced Satan?
Again the sponsor or adult to be baptized responds each time:
I have.
Then the priest says:
Breathe and spit on him. (Spit)
The priest asks three times:
Do you unite yourself to Christ?
Each time the sponsor or adult answers:
I do unite myself to Christ.
The priest then asks:
Have you united yourself to Christ?
The sponsor or adult answers:
I have united myself to Christ.
The priest asks:
Do you believe in him?
The sponsor or adult answers:
I believe in him as King and as God.
The candidate then recites the Nicene Creed.
After the recitation of the creed, the priest again asks the sponsor or adult (three times) whether they have united themselves to Christ. hen then asks them to bow down before God. The priest then leads in this prayer:
(blah blah blah, I'm not typing all that)
The priest then blesses the water by dipping the fingers of his right hand into it and tracing the sign of the cross three times. He breathes on the water and says:
(blah blah blah)
After the one being baptized is anointed with oil through the sacrament of christmation, the priest then dips a sponge in pure water and sprinkles the candidate, saying, "Thou are justfied! Thou are illuminated! Thou art sanctified! Thou art washed in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen."
And then it's over.
posted by proj08 at 12:00 PM on June 1, 2008
Um, Satan, not `Stan' ... lol
posted by proj08 at 12:03 PM on June 1, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by proj08 at 12:03 PM on June 1, 2008 [1 favorite]
So, my parents got married in an Orthodox church (the Armenian one, to be precise). My dad, at the time, was what we call a secular humanist raised Roman Catholic. I know that the Church required his baptism certificate and I know that RC was one of the only non-Orthodox churches they would even accept as a real baptism. Granted, this was in the early '80s, in a relatively conservative Armenian-American community, but I would say the UUs are Right Out.
I have been an atheist for several years now, but I have to admit there was a little part of me (and my mom expressed this too) that didn't feel like a secular wedding was quite the thing (I'm getting married in August). This isn't necessarily because the girl in the question is a religious nutter; it's just that maybe she's never been to a wedding outside her church, or thinks they are lame. I have been to exactly two and I have to admit they both felt sort of thin and one-dimensional compared to the centuries of ritual and tradition that come with an Orthodox wedding. Their churches are crazy and ornate and totally unlike the rest of life; it's hard to get that kind of heavy meaningfulness and context outside once you've been in. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it takes work.
Anon, if you can't make the church marriage happen, you're going to have to work extra hard to make sure the wedding means something to her and her family, and you're going to have to make sure you figure out creative control. And if you CAN make church marriage happen, keep in mind that if you plan to have kids it may be hard for her not to baptize them. It's just a question of her context. The way she was raised, it's kind of scandalous to not get baptized pretty soon after you're born. I felt a little racy when I first realized I fell in love with a man who hadn't been baptized. Again, this was a decent bit after I renounced the faith entirely. There's just some stuff that sticks with you as assumptions you forgot to question.
Memail me for any other details you want, I served on the altar in an unofficial capacity in the mid-90s and consider myself better versed than most atheists on how Orthodox churches roll. Obviously your question is pretty personal to me since if my dad had his druthers, he'd never have been baptized either.
posted by crinklebat at 8:26 PM on June 1, 2008
I have been an atheist for several years now, but I have to admit there was a little part of me (and my mom expressed this too) that didn't feel like a secular wedding was quite the thing (I'm getting married in August). This isn't necessarily because the girl in the question is a religious nutter; it's just that maybe she's never been to a wedding outside her church, or thinks they are lame. I have been to exactly two and I have to admit they both felt sort of thin and one-dimensional compared to the centuries of ritual and tradition that come with an Orthodox wedding. Their churches are crazy and ornate and totally unlike the rest of life; it's hard to get that kind of heavy meaningfulness and context outside once you've been in. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it takes work.
Anon, if you can't make the church marriage happen, you're going to have to work extra hard to make sure the wedding means something to her and her family, and you're going to have to make sure you figure out creative control. And if you CAN make church marriage happen, keep in mind that if you plan to have kids it may be hard for her not to baptize them. It's just a question of her context. The way she was raised, it's kind of scandalous to not get baptized pretty soon after you're born. I felt a little racy when I first realized I fell in love with a man who hadn't been baptized. Again, this was a decent bit after I renounced the faith entirely. There's just some stuff that sticks with you as assumptions you forgot to question.
Memail me for any other details you want, I served on the altar in an unofficial capacity in the mid-90s and consider myself better versed than most atheists on how Orthodox churches roll. Obviously your question is pretty personal to me since if my dad had his druthers, he'd never have been baptized either.
posted by crinklebat at 8:26 PM on June 1, 2008
Frankly, I'm not convinced by the "don't make a mockery of baptism" crowd.
I am convinced by the argument that we should not mock that which is held sacred (either religiously or the secular version) by other people, because it is rude to do so. Whether you believe what they believe or not doesn't much matter; it costs you nothing in this case to respect it. Yes, some religious rituals don't really deserve much respect (circumcision comes to mind, but please let's not derail there), or deserve qualified respect. I think, and you are free to disagree, that the line comes where harm to other people is involved, which of course includes a lot of grey areas.
I have been to exactly two and I have to admit they both felt sort of thin and one-dimensional compared to the centuries of ritual and tradition that come with an Orthodox wedding.
Which is sort of at the heart of things like this, or other tribal traditions such as monarchy or birthdays or anniversaries or funerals or what-have-you. The sense of a connection to the past seems to be an integral part of human nature, a need that we try to fulfill every day. Doesn't mean at all that fully secular weddings can't be beautiful; it's just that secular weddings often don't have the history behind them, and haven't had special places carved out for them. One has to wonder what we will think of secular weddings a hundred years from now, when someone can go to the special room at City Hall and think "wow, thousands of people have been married here, think about the tradition inside these walls."
To return to the topic... Anonymous, it's wonderful and glorious that you two have found love. And I hope that you are able to keep it and be with each other. But as some people have said above, a church wedding requires more than just mouthing the forms (I don't mean that in an insulting way). I truly hope that you, your fiancee, and her church are able to find a way through that recognizes both your love and the tradition in which she has grown up and respects so highly. I'm not saying you need to change your beliefs.. but you may need to shop around a bit for a priest. In my experience with the RC church, you might not want to look for those fresh out of the seminary, but for those who have been out for a few years and have opened their eyes a bit more to how their faith interacts with the secular world. Anecdata: my mother's RC priest was over for dinner once, and said he would be happy to conduct a gay wedding, but (for logical reasons) wouldn't let Rome know about it. He was about 35 or so. I think that's probably the sort of priest you want to look for, if you can.
Best of luck.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 9:49 PM on June 1, 2008
I am convinced by the argument that we should not mock that which is held sacred (either religiously or the secular version) by other people, because it is rude to do so. Whether you believe what they believe or not doesn't much matter; it costs you nothing in this case to respect it. Yes, some religious rituals don't really deserve much respect (circumcision comes to mind, but please let's not derail there), or deserve qualified respect. I think, and you are free to disagree, that the line comes where harm to other people is involved, which of course includes a lot of grey areas.
I have been to exactly two and I have to admit they both felt sort of thin and one-dimensional compared to the centuries of ritual and tradition that come with an Orthodox wedding.
Which is sort of at the heart of things like this, or other tribal traditions such as monarchy or birthdays or anniversaries or funerals or what-have-you. The sense of a connection to the past seems to be an integral part of human nature, a need that we try to fulfill every day. Doesn't mean at all that fully secular weddings can't be beautiful; it's just that secular weddings often don't have the history behind them, and haven't had special places carved out for them. One has to wonder what we will think of secular weddings a hundred years from now, when someone can go to the special room at City Hall and think "wow, thousands of people have been married here, think about the tradition inside these walls."
To return to the topic... Anonymous, it's wonderful and glorious that you two have found love. And I hope that you are able to keep it and be with each other. But as some people have said above, a church wedding requires more than just mouthing the forms (I don't mean that in an insulting way). I truly hope that you, your fiancee, and her church are able to find a way through that recognizes both your love and the tradition in which she has grown up and respects so highly. I'm not saying you need to change your beliefs.. but you may need to shop around a bit for a priest. In my experience with the RC church, you might not want to look for those fresh out of the seminary, but for those who have been out for a few years and have opened their eyes a bit more to how their faith interacts with the secular world. Anecdata: my mother's RC priest was over for dinner once, and said he would be happy to conduct a gay wedding, but (for logical reasons) wouldn't let Rome know about it. He was about 35 or so. I think that's probably the sort of priest you want to look for, if you can.
Best of luck.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 9:49 PM on June 1, 2008
If you are still looking for a less time-intensive path toward baptism, I recommend you check out the United Church of Canada, which is a fairly liberal protestant christian denomination, and one of the largest in Canada, so probably familiar to local orthodox congregations.
They do baptisms (and weddings, etc) for people in all sorts of diverse situations, and most ministers won't require you to be a member, although might require a few meetings to discuss exactly what this means. This is not the case for most RC priests I've heard of, who sometimes require months of classes, etc.
If you're interested in religion, you should be able to find at least one priest or minister (like rdauphin, above) who will be willing to discuss it with you in an intellectual and non-proselytizing way.
I'm with gjc on this point:
If there is a God, he will understand the contents of your heart on judgment day regardless of whether you were baptized or not. And, if there isn't a god, then it doesn't really matter. If you go and get baptized because you love this girl and want to make her happy, and you go through the process respectful of the feelings and beliefs of everyone involved, that's the point. You do no damage to them by respecting their beliefs, even if they aren't your own. gjc
posted by MissSquare at 12:09 PM on June 2, 2008
They do baptisms (and weddings, etc) for people in all sorts of diverse situations, and most ministers won't require you to be a member, although might require a few meetings to discuss exactly what this means. This is not the case for most RC priests I've heard of, who sometimes require months of classes, etc.
If you're interested in religion, you should be able to find at least one priest or minister (like rdauphin, above) who will be willing to discuss it with you in an intellectual and non-proselytizing way.
I'm with gjc on this point:
If there is a God, he will understand the contents of your heart on judgment day regardless of whether you were baptized or not. And, if there isn't a god, then it doesn't really matter. If you go and get baptized because you love this girl and want to make her happy, and you go through the process respectful of the feelings and beliefs of everyone involved, that's the point. You do no damage to them by respecting their beliefs, even if they aren't your own. gjc
posted by MissSquare at 12:09 PM on June 2, 2008
I got married two years ago to a woman who was raised Catholic, who has been through varying levels of faith but definitely wanted to be married in the church in which she grew up.
I met the priest who was to marry us over lunch, with my fiancee. He asked about my religious background. I explained that I hadn't been raised in a religious household, and hadn't been baptized. There's nothing offensive about this, and I'm having a little trouble understanding why you're worried about offending your fiancee's priest. If I had said "I understand that your rules require that I be baptized, but I don't believe, and I want to be initiated into your church although I don't believe", that would be puzzling to him, sure, and perhaps offensive. But, as I talk about below, this is hardly a unique situation, and they have a system for that.
As it turns out, there are systems for dealing with this in the Catholic Church. The priest had to obtain a piece of paper (a dispensation, maybe?) from the bishop for her to marry a non-Christian (Christian in this case from the Church's perspective meaning Baptized Person), but that is something they're used to. It would have been the same if I were Jewish. The first question for you is what her Church would do if you were religious but of a non-Christian faith. That may be the model for their plan to deal with folks like you (or me) in a reasonable way.
But even if I were required to be baptized, there are systems for that too, and there surely are for the Orthodox Church as well: convert to Christianity and be baptized. If the requirement is that you be baptized, you have to understand, if the above posters haven't made it clear, that that constitutes conversion to the faith. That's the answer to your "How does this work?" question. You have to approach it with that level of seriousness. I believe that conversion to the Catholic Church is a months-long process (the Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults) and one that you can't really get through unless you're comfortable asserting some level of faith. If your problem now is that you're not sure what you believe, or that you don't know about her Church's beliefs, that's okay: the whole point of the process leading up to Baptism/Conversion is catechesis, teaching.
Part of the point of the above is that it's okay, normal, something they probably deal with all the time, for people to convert to Orthodoxy for the sake of marrying someone in the Church. But that's what it is. It's not just getting sploshed, and anything that is just getting sploshed isn't going to fly in the eyes of the Church.
First, though, determine what is expected of you. And don't be afraid to admit to your fiancee's priest that you're not Orthodox or even not Christian. They understand that not everyone is of their faith and I'm sure they deal with that fact in their pastoral work constantly. Once you've clarified, honestly, what your situation is now, then you can determine what pathways are open to you, and the priest will be an ally in that exploration.
(I have to say, you will just make things work by trying to get some sort of quicky baptism outside of the Orthodox framework, especially because the more willing a church is to baptize without preparation, the more likely they are to be somewhat outré from the Orthodox perspective. The Orthodox have some very elaborate eccesiological and sacramental doctrines and without guidance I don't think you'll be able to have any expectation that your baptism will be taken seriously by her church.)
(One more note: the priest who married us wasn't one my fiancee knew before (she had been away from home for a while and didn't really know any of the priests at her home parish anymore). He was, by all reports, one known in the diocese as a "happy priest", easy-going and willing to take anybody through the process, within the actually relatively wide rules, and was recommended by someone on the church staff. If she isn't absolutely set on the priest, and just wants an Orthodox wedding, you MAY be able to do a little shopping. But maybe not. Also, in order for the "happy priest" to officiate at a wedding that was not his home parish, another piece of paper was required from the bishop. Be prepared for beauracracy, but don't take it personally. In any case, you may be lucky and you may not be. There's a huge amount of variety in the Orthodox world, and while I gather that the Greek church is strikingly liberal when compared with other branches, that doesn't necessarily apply to individual priests/parishes. But it may mean that if you do go the conversion/baptism route, the environment may be more friendly to someone coming as a skeptic and not just to zealots-in-waiting.)
posted by rustcellar at 6:17 PM on June 6, 2008
I met the priest who was to marry us over lunch, with my fiancee. He asked about my religious background. I explained that I hadn't been raised in a religious household, and hadn't been baptized. There's nothing offensive about this, and I'm having a little trouble understanding why you're worried about offending your fiancee's priest. If I had said "I understand that your rules require that I be baptized, but I don't believe, and I want to be initiated into your church although I don't believe", that would be puzzling to him, sure, and perhaps offensive. But, as I talk about below, this is hardly a unique situation, and they have a system for that.
As it turns out, there are systems for dealing with this in the Catholic Church. The priest had to obtain a piece of paper (a dispensation, maybe?) from the bishop for her to marry a non-Christian (Christian in this case from the Church's perspective meaning Baptized Person), but that is something they're used to. It would have been the same if I were Jewish. The first question for you is what her Church would do if you were religious but of a non-Christian faith. That may be the model for their plan to deal with folks like you (or me) in a reasonable way.
But even if I were required to be baptized, there are systems for that too, and there surely are for the Orthodox Church as well: convert to Christianity and be baptized. If the requirement is that you be baptized, you have to understand, if the above posters haven't made it clear, that that constitutes conversion to the faith. That's the answer to your "How does this work?" question. You have to approach it with that level of seriousness. I believe that conversion to the Catholic Church is a months-long process (the Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults) and one that you can't really get through unless you're comfortable asserting some level of faith. If your problem now is that you're not sure what you believe, or that you don't know about her Church's beliefs, that's okay: the whole point of the process leading up to Baptism/Conversion is catechesis, teaching.
Part of the point of the above is that it's okay, normal, something they probably deal with all the time, for people to convert to Orthodoxy for the sake of marrying someone in the Church. But that's what it is. It's not just getting sploshed, and anything that is just getting sploshed isn't going to fly in the eyes of the Church.
First, though, determine what is expected of you. And don't be afraid to admit to your fiancee's priest that you're not Orthodox or even not Christian. They understand that not everyone is of their faith and I'm sure they deal with that fact in their pastoral work constantly. Once you've clarified, honestly, what your situation is now, then you can determine what pathways are open to you, and the priest will be an ally in that exploration.
(I have to say, you will just make things work by trying to get some sort of quicky baptism outside of the Orthodox framework, especially because the more willing a church is to baptize without preparation, the more likely they are to be somewhat outré from the Orthodox perspective. The Orthodox have some very elaborate eccesiological and sacramental doctrines and without guidance I don't think you'll be able to have any expectation that your baptism will be taken seriously by her church.)
(One more note: the priest who married us wasn't one my fiancee knew before (she had been away from home for a while and didn't really know any of the priests at her home parish anymore). He was, by all reports, one known in the diocese as a "happy priest", easy-going and willing to take anybody through the process, within the actually relatively wide rules, and was recommended by someone on the church staff. If she isn't absolutely set on the priest, and just wants an Orthodox wedding, you MAY be able to do a little shopping. But maybe not. Also, in order for the "happy priest" to officiate at a wedding that was not his home parish, another piece of paper was required from the bishop. Be prepared for beauracracy, but don't take it personally. In any case, you may be lucky and you may not be. There's a huge amount of variety in the Orthodox world, and while I gather that the Greek church is strikingly liberal when compared with other branches, that doesn't necessarily apply to individual priests/parishes. But it may mean that if you do go the conversion/baptism route, the environment may be more friendly to someone coming as a skeptic and not just to zealots-in-waiting.)
posted by rustcellar at 6:17 PM on June 6, 2008
Okay, here's the deal: In the Eastern Orthodox church you cannot get married in an Orthodox ceremony unless you are both baptized. Orthodoxy recognizes baptism by trinitarian confessing faiths (Orthodox churches don't "redunk") and so you do not necessarily have to be baptized in an Orthodox church.
But, you are not baptized. So, she can still marry you in a ceremony that is not in the Orthodox church and it will be legally binding. However, she will lose her sacramental privileges in the Orthodox church until you become baptized and have your marriage blessed by a priest. Until you get baptized (which you seem to understand), your marriage will not be "recognized" by the Orthodox church and she will not be allowed to take communion in an Orthodox church, or receive an Orthodox funeral.
I have a friend who is Greek Orthodox and married an atheist in a civil ceremony. Now, even though she can go to church, she has lost her good standing until he agrees to get baptized and have their marriage blessed by the priest. This sucks. Most of the time she can deal with it, but other times she is sad because she can't participate in her tradition. However, she feels like she can no more ask him to renounce his atheism than he can ask her to renounce her faith, so they live in a kind of stalemate. It works for them. I don't think it would work for everyone.
But you are willing! However, you will pretty much have to confess faith in the Trinity and recognize Jesus as the Son of God in order to get dunked no matter what denomination you choose. Period. Whether you can say that through your teeth and not feel guilty forever is something YOU know you can do or not do. If having faith (to participate in this ritual) is such a big prerequisite for marrying the love of your life, maybe you should consider finding God? I do not envy you this decision. Falling in love on opposite sides of strong faith lines always presents a hefty set of struggles.
posted by whimsicalnymph at 9:04 AM on July 1, 2008
But, you are not baptized. So, she can still marry you in a ceremony that is not in the Orthodox church and it will be legally binding. However, she will lose her sacramental privileges in the Orthodox church until you become baptized and have your marriage blessed by a priest. Until you get baptized (which you seem to understand), your marriage will not be "recognized" by the Orthodox church and she will not be allowed to take communion in an Orthodox church, or receive an Orthodox funeral.
I have a friend who is Greek Orthodox and married an atheist in a civil ceremony. Now, even though she can go to church, she has lost her good standing until he agrees to get baptized and have their marriage blessed by the priest. This sucks. Most of the time she can deal with it, but other times she is sad because she can't participate in her tradition. However, she feels like she can no more ask him to renounce his atheism than he can ask her to renounce her faith, so they live in a kind of stalemate. It works for them. I don't think it would work for everyone.
But you are willing! However, you will pretty much have to confess faith in the Trinity and recognize Jesus as the Son of God in order to get dunked no matter what denomination you choose. Period. Whether you can say that through your teeth and not feel guilty forever is something YOU know you can do or not do. If having faith (to participate in this ritual) is such a big prerequisite for marrying the love of your life, maybe you should consider finding God? I do not envy you this decision. Falling in love on opposite sides of strong faith lines always presents a hefty set of struggles.
posted by whimsicalnymph at 9:04 AM on July 1, 2008
This thread is closed to new comments.
Is she aware that you don't believe, and that you (believe you) will not believe even if you get dunked in water? If she does, this seems silly to me.
posted by Flunkie at 9:01 AM on May 31, 2008