Crash Course in MMA Submission Grappling

May 23, 2008 12:52 PM

I just signed up for a submission only MMA tournament taking place mid june, I have 4 years HS wrestling experience, ZERO MMA experience... help?

The Essentials:

● I entered a 4 tiered submission-only (no striking) MMA round robin grappling tournament.

● The tournament is in 2 weeks. A match consists of one, 5 minute period.

● I will be in the beginner experience level (less than 18 months experience) since I have a wrestling background. (4 years highschool, 4 time state-attendee)

● I am 140lbs, which is 15lbs less than their smallest weight class (155lbs)

● I know nothing about submission holds. I am vaguely aware of something called the "guard" and something called an "arm bar".

● I am worried that some of my wrestling habits will hurt me on the under the rules of MMA submission.

■ What should I do between now and then?
■ What submissions are best for a n00b/experienced wrestler (who is used to winning by pinning the opponent's shoulders to the mat)?

Any advice or opinions will be heard! Thanks

-Hoyce Gracie

posted by yoyoceramic to sports, hobbies, & recreation (18 comments total)

I'll assume you're trying to do this on the cheap, rather than giving the obvious "Sign up for jujitsu classes, and let the coach know you're looking for a crash coarse/private lessons." - apparently if one's already good enough, some coaches will train for free, but take a percentage of any victory purses you gain.

Unless you're planning to fight in the future at 140, start trying to bulk up. At the very least, you won't have to cut weight.

Download a lot of UFC, PRIDE, and any other MMA fights (assuming that it's legal where you reside, otherwise look to rent/buy dvd's/videos), and watch it with some fellow wrestling friends. Note every submission for later repeated rewatching.

Practice with each other. Find out exactly where the arm has to be to choke someone out rather than just cause a bit of pain. Find out exactly how to twist the arm/elbow/shoulder to cause damage. This isn't something you can do on your own - you'll need a partner to say, "Ow" and you'll need to experience "ow" yourself. Plus, learn how to try to avoid "ow." If you don't have a wrestling friend, than find any friend willing to experiment with you - no prior skills is likely better than no practice.

Concentrate on remembering the practice bouts/moves while going to sleep. Dream of yourself escaping submission attempts, and submitting someone else.

Note; I've never done any martial arts, but for 3 years have been watching UFC/Pride (I.E. get a bit grain of salt).
posted by nobeagle at 1:26 PM on May 23, 2008

Hello,

I am not a MMA fighter, but I do play Judo and BJJ (all-gi, I assume this is no-gi, so, grain of salt). My advice would be to go to a BJJ school so that you can spend a lot of time on the mat with someone who knows submissions. Wrestling gives you a huge advantage in that you have 'mat-awareness' (you know where he is, you know where you are, you more or less know what you don't want to be). Your disadvantage is that you don't know where the danger zones are; you don't know what someone is going to do if he is in a certain place, and you don't know what it feels like when they start in for an attack. (Like, wearing a gi, newbie wrestlers will let me put my hands all over their collar, and they won't realize that they are in danger until too late. The good news is that wrestlers tend to pick up really quickly.)

Most of the wrestlers I know have a very good top game. This is where you are probably going to want to be. You will want to take the other guy down, establish a dominant position, and finish him. If you are swept, and go down to the bottom, without a knowledge of the guard, etc., you are probably in trouble.

You need one submission, which should probably come off of your favorite takedown. For example, as a Judoka (who is used to winning by pinning), I like throwing people into kesa-gatame (scarf hold). Kesa-gatame does not let me win in BJJ, so I learned scarf hold (see if he gives me the silly leg entangled armlock) -> reverse scarf hold -> mount -> s-mount -> armlock. I don't know you, though, so I can't tell you what submission you want to shoot for.

Naturally, if you find a coach and he contradicts me, listen to him, I'm just some guy off the internet.

Good luck to you,

Comrade Robot
posted by Comrade_robot at 1:45 PM on May 23, 2008

yep, its all about pain. you will need to learn to get people in holds that put pressure on their joints going the wrong way. don't let them get ahold of your limbs.
posted by Amby72 at 1:46 PM on May 23, 2008

Oy vey. Most likely, between your size disadvantage and your lack of knowledge of submission holds, you're in trouble. Just so you know where I'm coming from, I have brown belts in both Judo and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, though I never wrestled in high school. I don't compete a lot, as I'm in grad school, but have fought in some high level tournaments in the gi, and some strong regional tournaments in no-gi. Wrestlers with no submission training are easy to catch, but wrestlers with a bit of knowledge are much tougher.

And one thing: if there's no striking, it's not MMA. It's just submission grappling.

The BEST thing you could do would be to find yourself a BJJ or submission wrestling school, and attend daily for the next two weeks. If you can't do that, here is the best advice I can give you.

1. Use your takedown ability and athleticism to your advantage. Be quick and mobile. Many jiu-jitsu players use a slower game, (because the gi allows you to slow your opponent down) and will be caught a bit off guard if you don't settle into any position for too long. Move, move, move. Take your opponent down and back away, letting them back up.

2. Don't turn your back to your opponent, ever. In wrestling, you lose when your back touches the mat. There is no such rule in jiu-jitsu or submission wrestling. If you turn your back to your opponent, you will probably get choked. So make a concerted effort to face your opponent at all times.

3. If you find yourself on the bottom, and NOT in guard or half guard, do not push your opponent off you with your arms. When you push your opponent using a bench press motion, you are essentially handing him an armbar on a silver platter.

Go to any of the following websites, and watch AS many submission wrestling videos as possible. On the Mat, Subfighter, and of course, Youtube.

Best of luck, but don't hold your breath. And if you are caught in something, tap. It's not worth getting injured.
posted by HighTechUnderpants at 2:01 PM on May 23, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

Oh, and one more thing. RELAX. Since this is unfamiliar territory, you will have a tendency to get tense and hold your breath. Don't. You'll run out of gas before your first match is over.
posted by HighTechUnderpants at 2:02 PM on May 23, 2008

As HighTechUnderpants says, if there's no striking then it's submission grappling, not MMA.

What's the event you're going to? Do they have their rules posted online? Make sure you are throughly familiar with the rules before you go to the tournament. In particular, make sure you understand any rule violations that could get you disqualified.

Odds are pretty good that you aren't going to pull off any wins by submission if you've never studied submissions before, but you may be able to win matches on points. Usually in submission grappling you will get points for takedowns, passing guard, and establishing certain dominant positions, such as full mount or knee mount. Make sure you understand the rules on points. If you have the rules, but are not sure what some of the terms mean, post them here or memail me.

If you feel like a joint is in danger from a submission, tap early and tap often. Don't wait until you're in severe pain, because by then you may already be taking some serious damage. It's better to lose a match to a submission that wasn't really that dangerous then to not tap when you should have and suffer long-term injury as a result.
posted by tdismukes at 2:22 PM on May 23, 2008

Man, you're in a DESPERATE situation. Why are you doing this without any training?

Here's some tips that I would only offer someone who is OBVIOUSLY disadvantaged. Smell. Smell REALLY bad. Don't shower for a week before the match. No deodorant, no cologne. Work out hard, work out in the same gear you will be wearing during the match. This is the ONLY tip I can offer you 2 weeks before the match.

You can TRY to gain weight...but your body will NOT be used to this extra weight...and it may turn out to be a disadvantage. You should use the tools you are comfortable with, rather than trying in these next 2 weeks to gain 15 pounds, and not being able to use it correctly.

Also, at no point should you do ANYTHING because your life is in danger. REAL MMA participants train hard. A part of the training is knowing what you can and cannot do. We are 2 weeks from the match, and you do NOT know what to do. The last thing your high school wrestling trained body wants to do is make you feel like your life is in danger. Once that happens, you are likely to really HURT the other person. I think competing in here without any training is a HORRIBLE idea. Not for you, you'll be ok, youre competing against people who are trained to hurt you only as much as is needed to win. Its a horrible idea for others to get in the ring with you. During a particularly stressful point in a match, your wrestling instincts may tell you that this isn't wrestling, and you may act out in a manner thats unexpected (this is a grappling only match), and illegal.

Good luck (especially to your opponents).
posted by hal_c_on at 2:26 PM on May 23, 2008

I entered a 4 tiered submission-only (no striking) MMA round robin grappling tournament.


Your are a brave man. But often braveness is the lack of intelligence ;-)

The tournament is in 2 weeks. A match consists of one, 5 minute period.

You come to late.

I know nothing about submission holds. I am vaguely aware of something called the "guard" and something called an "arm bar".


What should I do between now and then?

Get a good health insurance and life insurance.

What submissions are best for a n00b/experienced wrestler (who is used to winning by pinning the opponent's shoulders to the mat)?

You will probably put you opponents easily on the mat. The problem is that putting someone in submission wrestling with no striking on the back is not a big advantage, if at all.

You have two weeks left to find a training buddy who teaches you what to avoid. BTW, do you know how to get someone into submission at all? (choke holds etc)?
posted by yoyo_nyc at 2:46 PM on May 23, 2008

I hope you will come back and tell us how this works out for you.
posted by procrastination at 2:51 PM on May 23, 2008

find a training partner that does BJJ (no-gi or gi, depending on your tourny). Your wrestling skills will help you in sprawl/guard situations, but you will be quite vulnerable in the guard operations. Conserve your energy mid-fight. Most wrestlers over-exert themselves against true JJers....Gluck
posted by stratastar at 2:54 PM on May 23, 2008

Good luck!
posted by P.o.B. at 3:44 PM on May 23, 2008

Oh my god. I know hal_c_on wasn't being completely serious, but don't do the no-bathing thing. That is disgusting. Anyone who has trained for a while knows how miserable it is to train with 'the smelly guy'. Don't be that guy-for the love of GOD!, don't be that guy. If you did that in a tournament, I would do my best to get you disqualified, and if I couldn't I would try and beat you as fast as possible. If I caught a submission, I would probably hold it a bit too long. Not bathing is not only gross, it's disrespectful.

This is a sporting event. In the spirit of sporting events, go in, play hard and play to win, but don't play dirty (literally or figuratively).

Also, tdismukes' point about learning the rules is crucial. As long as you don't freak out, these tournaments are usually pretty safe (though freak accidents do happen). I've been at tournaments with over 1000 competitors, and it's enough to have one ambulance and a few first responders, because serious injuries are actually pretty rare. Just be relaxed, and realize it's only a game. Come back to fight another day.
posted by HighTechUnderpants at 3:49 PM on May 23, 2008

I wrestled too in school...took a bunch of TKD and some free-form style self defense in college(based on TKD/kickboxing.) One of my buddies in class was a Jiu-Jitsu player, and we used to absolutely love to beat the crap out of each other, submission OR pin to win.

The fantastic advantage you have as a wrestler is multi-fold, including that you have an excellent center and (you should) be very good and slipping grips and transferring weight/using your opponents weight to your advantage.

What scares me a lot about MMA style stuff is that, unlike wrestling, you don't always have to have an arm to have the head. I think it depends on your style.

There are several wrestling style submissions that you already know, you've just never made anyone tap out with them. Figure 4? Heck yea, arm/head/leg = win. Chicken-wing? Yup, just push farther and/or come over the shoulder with your hand, or roll into a...what's it called...not a crucifix...it's...a....where you come out of it with their arm locked in your legs, twisted upside down and wrist up. Dammit I can't remember what that thing is called. Don't know if you've ever seen a banana-split done to someone, that's a fun submission too if they're not super flexible.

Just remember to watch your elbows. Often in wrestling it's ok to leave them stuck out. In this case, it's not. There are a loooooot of arm bars, and most are really easy to learn. Just remember to stay mobile and keep moving. Ride them out if you need too, don't be afraid to turtle.

One last thing: in wrestling the last place you want to be is on your back. In Judo/Jiu-Jitsu/self defense it's a fine place to be. On your back, legs up facing your opponent, wait for the attack and counter. Lots and LOTS of MMA fights are won with the victor on his back, waiting for a chance to grab that arm and lock it out w/ their legs.
posted by TomMelee at 6:37 PM on May 23, 2008

I wrestled in high school but haven't been in a fight fight since the 8th grade. My MMA experience has been... from the couch. So clearly I am the authority in this thread. Cough. Okay not really. But maybe I can at least give you some basic non-technique two cents and point you towards some sources of actual technique. Actual fighters are encouraged to correct and elaborate on the below. Give our man some simple tools and a simple plan here if he's going to go through with it. (Your parents called, however. Your mom says, "Oh honey! Please, no!" Your dad says, "Son, this is not a good idea. Train first, spar, practice until you have basic competence, and only then consider a tournament.")

With that said, I've watched tons of MMA. What I notice about the noobs who are from a wrestling background is that they can often get the opponent down just fine but then they don't know what to do once the other guy is on his back. The adrenaline is pumping and so they revert to instinct, which just means control the guy on his back. But pinning a guy doesn't mean anything in MMA. So there's often a lot of fumbling and just kind of trying to smoosh the guy. Even Matt Hamil's early TUF fights featured some of that. But it's pointless. And in this competition of yours you can't even hit the guy once you've got him on his back.

Seems to me that with this short amount of time, and given that you will indeed revert to instinct once the sort of shock sets in, I wouldn't bother trying to learn many submission moves. I'd try to learn two, maybe three at a maximum and just keep shooting for them. You don't have time to learn more than that to the point where you will remember them in a fight, and even that much will be hard with the time you've got. Perhaps if you have a singular focus that doesn't require too much thinking, that will be your best chance. It won't be a well-rounded fight and it may go badly because of it, but you have to think of what your best odds are given what you've got at this point, even if they aren't good odds.

The most common submission moves I see used are 1. armbar, 2. rear naked choke, 3. guillotine choke, 4. triangle. 5. ankle lock. Properly applied, they appear to be successful in that order, meaning that people get out of #5 the most often of this bunch and #1 the least often (4 and 5 might be switched). The first three will make somebody quit quicker than anything else I've seen. You don't want your arm to break and you panic when you can't breathe and your windpipe is being crushed. The triangle can take longer to work and ankle locks have to be done just right or the guy has too much room to bend and wiggle away your leverage. Obviously the position you are in determines what your move options are, and, say, a triangle or something else may be your best/only option in a given situation regardless of what tricks you have managed to learn, but I would say make it your fight plan to go for an armbar. When it's your arms, legs, and back vs. his one arm, the odds are good:

Take him down, get him on his back, mount him, pass his guard so you're straddling his chest and his legs can't come into play, move your seat up towards his neck, grab one arm, throw one leg over his head to the other side where that heel will join its twin, lean back and try to bend his arm the wrong way at the elbow by planting it against your pelvic bone as the fulcrum, pushing his head and chest down with your two legs that are now together side by side, and pulling on his wrist at your solar plexus with your two hands (his arm is threaded between your legs, your body is perpendicular to his). Arch your back and stiffen your legs to bend the arm, and he has to tap or get his elbow broken backwards. Be careful with that - don't just crank it and break it. Be firm enough to make him panic but be ready to release pressure quickly when he taps. Here's Georges St. Pierre demonstrating on YouTube. This isn't the perpendicular back-leaning armbar I usually see, but listen to him, not me. Look elsewhere for the kind where you fall back to crank it. This guy shows the basic idea, and also shows that this can be done just as well or even better from your back if the guy doesn't have you fully mounted and is fumbling. This guy shows that technique plus some countermeasures against the defenses the guy will try to block your armbar with, but he gets probably more complicated than you'll want to aim for.

If you happen to have his back at any point, (like in the referee's position you're used to from wrestling - with you on top and on your knees and him on all fours and you with an arm around his trunk or something similar or even if you're both on your sides but you're behind him) I think the one thing you should be thinking about is a rear naked choke. Lock it in sleeper-hold style and squeeze like hell while wrapping your legs out around his waist and then hooking them inside his legs. Then stretch him out by arching your back and stiffening your legs as you pull at the neck and push his arse/lower back forward with your pelvis. (In certain positions it's enough to just have your hooks in, no real stretching out). One arm around his neck, inner elbow at his windpipe, that hand locked into the crook of the other elbow, the other hand on the back of his head, and squeeeeze till he taps or passes out. You can start a rear naked choke standing, sitting, laying, etc. You need to get your hooks in though or he can often move out of it so that you lose your leverage.

A guillotine is nice because you can throw it standing up, kneeling, or even semi from your back. It's similar to your childhood headlocks but isn't very funny. You're facing eachother, maybe he tries to shoot in, his head is too low, you're above him, you shoot an arm around his neck and crank it in, grabbing that wrist with the other hand. The back of his neck is now in your armpit. you can lean back and jump your legs up to wrap around his waist and fall to your back, pushing with your heels to give you leverage to pull on that neck. If it's tight, he has to tap.

The last few seconds of that guillotine video show how to get it even if you're on your back. You have to be able to get some height by posting up on one arm, but it can be done. He's got you on your back but you're scrambling out of it, trying to sit up and kind of posting up on one arm, and he's now on all fours and trying to come back up even with you to push your shoulders back down to the mat. His head is too low, you have enough height to get your arm up and over his neck and back under, and you essentially do what you did in the standing or kneeling guillotine but you're already almost on your back, where you might have gone anyway to lock it if you had started standing. If you can lock your legs around him, you might get it. I often see this one not work though, and you'll hear coaches yelling, "It's not there, It's not there!" from the corner because the bottom guy doesn't have enough of an angle. I don't know enough to say when it's advisable or not. Might as well give it a shot if you've got nothing else going and might otherwise lose.

I think the triangle will be too hard to learn properly in this short amount of time - figuring out when it's good to try it and the various ways to go about it. Google it but don't dwell on it, I say. Ankle/leg locks can be panicked, brute force, non-technical things and sometimes work, so if you can bend something the wrong way with leverage, by all means do, but it can be a real waste of energy if you don't have it lined up right. I guess if he gives you his legs, try to do something with them, but otherwise use it as an opportunity to get back up or into better position for one of your core moves.

There are loads of other moves of course, such as the kimura, which can be really effective, but they appear more complicated to execute. You might check out some of the other stuff in that Submissions 101 series on YouTube. But I really would just focus on a few things so you don't have to think.

FIGHT! (or, you know, not)
posted by Askr at 1:47 AM on May 24, 2008 [1 favorite has favorites]

Any advice? Fine, here's mine: withdraw.

Seriously. You run a high risk of hurting yourself or someone else. I wouldn't do this, and I've been doing Judo for 4 years, have fought in Judo shiai, and know the standard Judo submission/knock-out ground work pretty well for someone who's not terribly experienced.
posted by rodgerd at 2:11 AM on May 24, 2008

Hey there,

I just wanted to add two notes: There is a danger that since you don't know what the various submissions feel like, that you won't tap in time. I have noticed that wrestlers (generally, I don't know you) tend not to tap out to things until it's very obvious that their arm is right about to break. In practice, often people will get you in an armlock, pause, then slowwwwlllly apply it. In competition, people may be less kind -- some people crank them, and then you are looking at broken armsville, population you. (I know some old school Judoka, for example, who have the opinion that the time to tap out is when it's clear that they have your arm, because in high level competition, they are not going to apply it nicely because that gives you time to escape.)

I also want to caution you about learning things from the internet. Especially if you have never learned these things before, you don't want to pick up bad habits. I don't want to pick on anybody, but some of the technique descriptions above, while broadly correct, leave out things that my instructors emphasize. I want to reemphasize that if you want to compete, you should find a qualified instructor who can evaluate your performance and properly teach you submissions. You will also need to spend a lot of time on the mat using and setting up these submissions. Knowing of a technique is really really really not the same as being able to use the technique.
posted by Comrade_robot at 6:59 AM on May 24, 2008

Comrade robot makes a very good point. Don't learn it off the internet from admitted non-fighters. My point is if you're going to learn something in your two weeks, pick two or three things and then go have somebody qualified teach you those things. It still isn't much time.
posted by Askr at 9:56 AM on May 24, 2008

To follow up on this post..

I had 8 matches over the course of two hours. I entered the novice category (under 6 months experience). I won one match, lost 5 matches, and tied two of them.

The matches were significantly less taxing on the cardio than I was expecting. I am used to wrestling matches, where constant action is required by both contenders at all times. Jiu Jitsu seemed really slow to me.

After every match, I refined my strategy. After winning the take downs on the first 7 matches (but being caught in the guard immediately afterwards), for my last match, I decided to tuck my opponent's right bicept under my left armpit. I fell backwards, catching him in my guard. I immediately applied a Kumora to his left arm and quickly tapped him out. - This was a move I learned off expert villiage.

Thanks for your advice everyone.. I almost had my first opponent in an armbar from the mount position, and there were several other times I almost won the match, but my lack of Jiu Jitsu technique caused me to make many foolish moves.

4 of the 5 losses were due to some type of rear choke, which was placed on me after doing the traditional wrestling take down. If I were to do this again, I would focus on learning takedowns that result in me ending in the mount position or with my opponent in my guard.
posted by yoyoceramic at 10:11 AM on June 9, 2008