When a young man dies in war

May 21, 2008 10:25 AM

Can you help me translate a certain passage of 7 lines from Homer's Iliad into latin? Book 22, starting around line 70.

A lot of the translations from Greek that I've seen took quite the artistic liberty, and I believe the ones below are closest to the original. (http://www.mala.bc.ca/~johnstoi/homer/iliad22.htm):

When a young man dies in war,
lying there murdered by sharp bronze, that's all right.
Though dead, he shows us his nobility.
But when the dogs disfigure shamefully
an old man, chewing his gray head, his beard,
his sexual organs, that's the saddest thing
we wretched mortals see.

It's for a potential tattoo (not mine) and thus while I probably can piece words together on my own, I'd rather not make a blunder that would permanently become part of someone else. So if you are guessing or are unsure, I'd really appreciate a small disclaimer :} Thank you in advance either way, though!

posted by Bakuun to writing & language (10 comments total)

I apologize if this doesn't answer your question, of if I'm underestimating your level of knowledge, please feel free to ignore.

I guess my first question would be - are you basing your belief that those lines are closest to the original on your reading from the Greek? There is a lot of disagreement as to which translation is the best, though that, to me, looking at the Greek, seems like a rather loose English translation that does not capture the spirit (does it really say "that's all right"?). As far as English translations go, I personally tend to recommend Lattimore's Iliad, but others will disagree.

But with that said, I would strongly recommend that you use an existing Latin translation (preferably one done before the modern age, directly from the Greek). You know how when you put a sentence into Babelfish, then translate it to some other language, then back to English? The meaning is distorted. You may be risking that here, by translating from Greek to English, then to Latin. Here's a link to a lead on one, which is from the 19th century but still probably done by someone with real mastery over the idiosyncrasies of both the Greek and Latin, which takes decades to develop.

I would also strongly recommend that, if you do want a fresh translation anyway, your friend invest the few hundred dollars to get a professional to do it right. It's for a tattoo, for god's sake! :)
posted by thumpasor at 11:18 AM on May 21, 2008

I would've loved to do more research, definitely, but wasn't sure where to go from there. Thank you for your suggestion, thumpasor! I'll investigate around LibriVox for now.
posted by Bakuun at 11:59 AM on May 21, 2008

If it were me, I'd try to talk whoever wants this tatoo into leaving it in greek.

But that's just me. If they MUST have it in Latin, then I'd go with thumpasor's suggestion of a pre-modern Greek -> Latin translation.
posted by ArgentCorvid at 12:31 PM on May 21, 2008

Are there any extant ancient translations of Homer into Latin? Doing a quick google reveals that there were, of course, several prominent versions, but all that seems to have survived are fragments from Matias and Ennius. I think most Latin translations you find will be medieval or renaissance, and of questionable quality.
posted by mr_roboto at 12:52 PM on May 21, 2008

I've got to say I don't understand why someone would want a passage that was written in one ancient language tattooed onto their body in a different ancient language. It seems a little like getting a passage from the Kama Sutra translated into Hebrew.

Anyway, as others have suggested, don't go the Greek -> English -> Latin route if you can avoid it; much better to locate or commission a translation directly from the Greek to the Latin.
posted by dersins at 12:53 PM on May 21, 2008

I think most Latin translations you find will be medieval or renaissance, and of questionable quality.

I entirely disagree about the quality. The humanists of the Renaissance knew Latin at least as well as we do, and they wrote in it far more often and easily; there was a reason Pound used Andreas Divus's Latin Odyssey as the jumping-off point for the Cantos. And there are a number of Latin Iliads; from the bibliography of this article:

Bibliotheque nationale de France, ms lat. 7880(1) and 7880(2), Leontius Pilatus's Latin translations of the Iliad and the Odyssey, owned by Petrarch.
Incipiunt aliqui libri ex Iliade Homeri translati per dominum Nicolaum de Valle Legum doctorem Basilice principis apostolorum de urbe Canonicum quos complere aut emendare non potuit improuisa morte preuentus. Rome, Iohannes Philippus de Lignamine, 1474a.

Homeri Ilias, id est, de rebus ad Troiam gestis. Paris, Guillaume Morel, 1562.

Lorenzo Valla's Latin translation of the Iliad. Brescia, Henricus Coloniensis and Statius Gallicus, 1474b.
Homeri Poetarum supremi Ilias per Laurentium Vallen. in Latinum sermonem traducta foeliciter incipit. Brescia, Baptista Farfengus, 1497.
Homeri poetae Clarissimi Ilias per Laurentium Vallensem Romanum e graeco in latinum translata: nuper accuratissime emendata. Venice, Ioannes Tacuinus de Tridino, 1502.

Poetarum omnium seculorum longe principis Homeri Ilias, hoc est, de rebus ad Troiam gestis descriptio, iam recens Latino carmine reddita, Helio Eobano Hesso Interprete. Basel, Robert Winter, 1540.

Your userpage doesn't show your location, but if you're near a college with a classics department, I'm sure they'd be glad to help you. Definitely use an existing translation and don't try to cobble one together.
posted by languagehat at 2:08 PM on May 21, 2008

...there was a reason Pound used Andreas Divus's Latin Odyssey as the jumping-off point for the Cantos.

My understanding is that Divus' translation isn't very good (it's more of a prose retelling than an actual attempt at a poetic translation; Latin Cliffs Notes for students of the Greek poem), and that Pound encountered it basically by chance. It's obscure, and apart from its associations with Chapman and Pound, unimportant.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were very good renaissance Latin translations of Homer; it will be awfully hard to figure out if any given translation is what you're really looking for without help from an actual classicist, though, since I'm sure there's a lot of dreck and weirdness, too.
posted by mr_roboto at 5:24 PM on May 21, 2008

I think most Latin translations you find will be medieval or renaissance, and of questionable quality

You think you can translate Greek into Latin better than the Renaissance humanists? Well, do ya, punk?

This is quite possibly the silliest request I have ever seen on AskMeFi, so naturally I have to make a stab at answering it. Here's the relevant passage from the Latin translation of the Iliad by Nicolas Valla and Vincent Heydnecker (Obsopoeus), published at Haguenau in 1531:

.. iuveni pulchrum est occumbere in armis
Et ferro sua membra rapi, miserabile visu
Esse tamen reor, ut confectum aetate parentem
Cui canum caput et canae reverentia barbae
Ora cruentia canum lacerant ..
posted by verstegan at 6:31 AM on May 22, 2008

Ahah :D I've sent off a message to the individual on Librivox with the 19th century Latin copy, and his reply was as follows:

Iuveni autem omnino decorum est
Pugna caeso, lacerato acuto aere,
Iacere; omnia nempe honesta etiam mortuo quicquid apparuerit:
Sed quum iam canumque caput, canamque barbam,
Pudendaque deturpent canes occisi senis,
Hoc utique miserrimum accidit miseris mortalibus.

Verstegan, forgive my utter lack of Latin knowledge - though the version you posted seems far more condensed, I presume it'll be the better and truer.. Any way I could ask you for a translation into English to know how different it may be from what I've read myself?
posted by Bakuun at 6:12 AM on May 23, 2008

I think it's reasonably faithful to the Greek, except that it only mentions the old man's head and beard, not his sexual organs. Here, just for variety, is another Renaissance Latin translation, this one by Leontius Pilatus:

.. iuveni autem omnia conveniunt
Marti interfecto dilaniato acuto ferro
Iacere, omnia autem bona mortuo quicquid appareat.
Sed quando iam canum caput canamque barbam
Verecundia vituperent canes interfecti senis
Hoc iam miserabile est miseris mortalibus.

(This seems to be the basis for the other Latin translation you quote.) This one renders the sexual organs as 'verecundia' (literally, 'shame') whereas the other has the more explicit 'pudenda'.
posted by verstegan at 8:13 AM on May 27, 2008