I'd really like to get to give this a shot - can you help?

May 6, 2008 4:52 PM

Here’s one of those how-do-I-play-this? relationship questions. At the very beginning of a possible relationship (with a touring musician) that I'd really like to give a chance to, but he may be too scared. (explanation inside)

I am 42 years old, single and very interested in (being in) a relationship. I’m not desperate, I live on my own and enjoy time on my own, but I’m very ready for a relationship. Last serious one was several years ago. I recently got in touch (with no expectations) with someone I’ve known for years (15+) but never knew very well. We’re both musicians, but he’s much more successful than me. In fact, he’s a very successful touring musician (solo), and on the road a lot. He was playing in my town and I got in touch to see if he’d like to get together before his show. He did. We hung out and he left after the show, saying that he felt close to me and thought we should explore this further. I was/am down for that. He told me he’d had a crush on me years ago. I had no idea. I’ve since seen him a few more times with things getting…heavier each time (consummated), though we haven’t established if we’re really dating. We live a few hours apart, and like I said, he’s on the road a lot.

He is 54, a caretaker type, and his most recent relationship ended three years ago. The woman actually broke up with HIM, but proceeded to stalk and harass him, as she does to this day. It’s actually to an astounding degree, and much more complex than I can describe here. Multiple daily emails and calls, drive-bys, faked suicide attempts, and calls to venues nationwide. While he has done some things to deter her (getting a no-trespass order, not responding to her emails or calls EVER), he has also refused to change phone # or email (citing business reasons) and hasn’t used the full extent of the law, I think. That said, cops and lawyers tell him that there's not much he can do. She has two girls that he was very close to, and I don’t think he wants to affect them in any potentially negative way. I think he’s also used to bad relationships, and there’s a comfort zone there (in the drama) for him (again, too complex to explain). He did recently hire an attorney at great expense to do something related to her, though I’m not sure exactly what.

The above leads him to be very gunshy and to believe that women have a tendency to “become crazy”, though he did recently let me know that he did not think this of me. In fact, we’ve talked more about the connection we have, how the attraction is pretty crazy, and how much we enjoy each other. Still, we go days without speaking, because he’s dealing with the above and various other major changes and he’s asked me to give him some time, and because I think it’s just difficult to have comfortable and productive phone conversations with someone you don’t know THAT well. If I had a definitive time that I’d see him next (likely next week if he makes himself available), I’d feel much better. But the not-knowing makes me wonder what I’m doing and is stressing me out no end. I’m willing to give him some time, as he’s requested, but not if, in the end, he refuses to let us get to know each other in person. I like him a lot. I think he’s very cool, and in many ways an incredibly sensitive and evolved guy (supported by many others who also know him – people tend to just adore this guy). I think we could potentially be good for each other and have something really good, but I don’t know yet.

Ironically, the one thing I don’t really worry about, despite the fact that women are CONSTANTLY coming on to this guy (which is the nature of how he sings and writes), is him finding someone else. He is very careful about getting involved at all, but I fear that he’ll stop this before it starts because he’s just too scared. He’s been in several relationships, but is at a serious crossroads, as am I. I think the timing could actually be beneficial if he’ll give us a chance, but I’m not sure he will, though this was his idea to begin with. I wish I knew what to DO here. Stop calling (I don’t call very often to begin with, and we don’t email each other) and TRULY back off, or assume it’s not happening, or…what? Is there a “formula” that will most likely result in him giving us a chance? Any insights (other than “run away!”, since I’m not really looking for that) would be appreciated.

posted by FlyByDay to human relations (25 comments total)

Is there a “formula” that will most likely result in him giving us a chance?

Are you kidding? Of course there isn't. A relationship is the sum of its parts. There aren't any magic words you can throw out there to make things work when they're not. Trying to force things with this guy is not going to work (and why you'd even want it to is beyond me- so many red flags in your question).
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:04 PM on May 6 [1 favorite]

There are many, many red flags in this post but the fact that he has a woman stalking him and that women are CONSTANTLY, as you say, coming on to this guy, I just see trouble ahead, IMHO.

On preview, what ThePinkSuperhero said. I can see like three right now and I'm sure this is not everything.
posted by notjustfoxybrown at 5:13 PM on May 6

Ooopps. I realized I didn't answer the question. You can't force a 54-year-old person to do anything he or she doesn't want to do.
posted by notjustfoxybrown at 5:13 PM on May 6

At the ages involved having some drama or baggage is to be expected. Yes, you could find someone who doesn't have it, but making that a priority is probably a recipe for winding up with someone who has other, more glaring, short comings.

In short: don't worry so much about the stalker ex.

Moving on, I think that in any relationship that, "What are we doing here exactly?" conversation is okay and expected.

The thing is this: he should have been giving you clues all along about his interest level. Likewise you should have been gentle steering him toward your goal of making it a more committed relationship. It doesn't sound like this has happened yet, or if it has it hasn't been reciprocated. If he is acting aloof, it's because he is aloof and thus probably not interested in advancing the commitment level. Don't over think it.

So, you can either cruise along for some arbitrary amount of time longer and continue to feel things out, or you can have the aforementioned "What are we doing" conversation. Know that if you approach this subject in a direct way you may come off as sounding like you're giving him an ultimatum, which may cause him to decide that it's time to move on.

Of course, ultimatums have their place too. If you tire of the uncertainty, his unwillingness to commit, etc. then it's fine to give one. They suck of course, but that's the way relationships work.

In my experience, black and white, cut and dried type ultimatums only succeed in ending relationships. So it's best to avoid them if possible. It's much better to say something like, "You know, I'm having fun with you, but I'm going to want to settle down one of the days..." and leave it hanging for a while longer.

One other point of caution: you're not committed to this guy *yet* and I hope that you're not closing the door to other potential suitors in the hopes that things will pan out with this one. Keep your options open.

Good luck!
posted by wfrgms at 5:23 PM on May 6 [1 favorite]

What would be wrong with emailing him something similar to what you've said here? Or learn it fairly well and discuss it with him over dinner? It reads fairly solid to me. You're just talking about how you feel, and that you'd like to give it a chance. In fact, you mentioned how if you had a definite time when you'd see him next that would make you feel better. That's not that much of a commitment.
posted by fantasticninety at 5:31 PM on May 6

Long distance is incredibly hard and damn near impossible at any age. Long distance when you're in your forties and fifties is, I'm beginning to think, completely impossible. So those few hours between your town and his are a bigger deal than you're thinking right now. And it seems to be harder for men (although I could be extrapolating here from a very similar relationship I had that just ended, so keep that in mind.) Still, look: you don't have to worry about his previous relationship(s) or his crazy stalker. That's his problem, and, since he's been living it for three years, I have to point out that it sounds like it's not really that much of a problem for him. If it was, he would have solved it by now. Three years is a long time and he's accustomed to it. So ignore that for the red herring it is - he's already dealing with that one on his own terms.

You need to think about the relationship between the two of you and that's where the distance thing comes into play. Even to try that out takes two people - and both of them have to make phone calls, both of them have to email (FUCK the I don't email thing, I heard that too, and it's supreme bullshit - and also, even though he says he isn't, he's reading your emails, oh yes he is) and both of them need to be willing to go into it. Honestly, it doesn't sound like he really wants to go there. He asked you to give him some time. That's often code for "Don't call me." Let him call you. Balance it at, like, two of his phone calls to one of yours. Or at least one to one.

I’m willing to give him some time, as he’s requested, but not if, in the end, he refuses to let us get to know each other in person. How do you get to know somebody when they don't live in the same place if y'all aren't on the phone every night at a bare minimum? You don't. So you need to remember that. I don't want to sound totally negative here but I do think you need to take a deep breath and maybe back off a bit. It might well yet work out. Concentrate on doing your own thing, living your own life and letting him know that you're there if he wants to make contact. He might then - and he might not. Go see him next weekend if he's into it - I mean, why not? Among other things, it's a lot easier to have these conversations face to face than on the phone and, once it's more than one weekend, it starts to be time to have just this conversation. Except don't mention the psycho ex. Let him handle that one.
posted by mygothlaundry at 5:33 PM on May 6

At the ages involved having some drama or baggage is to be expected.

You're absolutely right but I bet she can find a man that same age without an ex who's stalking him, women CONSTANTLY throwing themselves at him, and not on the road all the time -- especially if she's a woman who's very ready for a relationship.
posted by notjustfoxybrown at 5:40 PM on May 6

There are many things that alone would make this relationship difficult (touring musician, crazy ex, differing levels of commitment, etc.). Together, they do not paint a rosy picture. However, stranger things have happened, and I think the most important thing is to have a discussion with him to make sure you're on the same page. You're both adults and have had relationships before... so talk about it. You seem to think he's 'gunshy', sound more to me like he's simply not as interested in pursuing a relationship. But the point is, you need to find out because it sounds like this is very important to YOU at this point in your life -- so don't spend it stressing out about his intentions when all you have to do is ask.
posted by rooftop secrets at 5:42 PM on May 6

I should mention a few things: I don't really think there's any formula for making this work, of course. But I do know that I've heard things like "men react like x, so don't do y to cause it", and in fact, you can see some of those very comments above. So I'm really looking to delve into the psyche of men, which I clearly do not understand, and figure out what's the best way to approach this.

We're both open to moving out of our respective areas, and I've been looking to move for quite a while, so that's not an indefinite obstacle.

I very much want to say this to him (and have said much of it), but in PERSON. And if he refuses to see me next week (when he's off), he's back on the road after that, and I sadly think I'll have my answer.

Thanks!
posted by FlyByDay at 5:42 PM on May 6

Oh, and women coming onto him are a job hazard. Like he said, it doesn't happen when he's walking down the street, and he doesn't take them up on it.
posted by FlyByDay at 5:45 PM on May 6

Well, I'm a man and it really didn't read like you were going to say something to dissuade him. So let's say you said something like "I'm really into you, etc. etc., and I think we could spend more time together...even by living in the same city. You're not getting any younger, neither am I and we clearly enjoy each other's company." So either
a. he likes the idea (great!)
b. he takes a deep breath and hums and haws a bit
Well, if it's b then you have a situation where you try to backpedal a bit and cover your losses and maybe try to define something as a relationship even though it's less than you wish it to be. And that's the scenario you'd have to face up to: would you be happy seeing him some of the time but not really like you would wish? Because from everything you said it doesn't sound like you're going to pressure him too much and you'll just get an answer to what you're looking for, but you're afraid what that answer may be.
I only say this because if in your mind you know you wouldn't be that happy in limbo then you really have nothing to lose just sitting down with him over dinner and talking about it as you are here.

All that being said, it would be easier on him if you focused on the logistics (such as how spending time together could be fun and exciting as it already has been) and maybe didn't talk too much about your feelings, as that can get draining and then a guy feels responsible for those feelings and that's when the button "disengage" gets pressed. Better to stick with short sentences about what you'd like and then "What do you think?". But I'm only one guy...
posted by fantasticninety at 6:45 PM on May 6

Touring musicians love their music. They always have that. Any other relationship is more work than reward. If you're O.K. with that then go for it. If not, remember that there are 3 billion men in this world.
posted by Floydd at 6:48 PM on May 6

This sounds familiar. The age, the crazy-stalker ex, the "give me time," the women coming on to him, everyone thinking he's great... My foray into that territory went like this: He lived in another state. He wasn't sure he was ready for a serious relationship but he wanted to see me anyway.

He invited me to visit. I drove 6 hours for a nice, platonic visit. I invited him to visit. He accepted but bailed two hours before he was supposed to arrive. He invited me to visit again. I drove 6 hours again. I invited him again. He agreed again but...bailed again. I caught on and called it off. He then miraculously recovered from his gunshy-ness and quickly got involved with another woman.

My point: maybe your musician's gunshy-ness is really just that he's not that into you. Give him the time he says he needs and watch what he does with it. Stop calling and see if he calls you.
posted by PatoPata at 6:58 PM on May 6 [1 favorite]

Well, considering he's TOLD me that he's really into me, I guess my choice is to assume that he lied, or assume he didn't. There is much more here I haven't detailed (didn't want to overwhelm any more than I did) that is leading him to the "give me time" thing. And he didn't say "give me an indefinite amount of time". He said, "give me a few weeks to get all this stuff straight". I think he's on the up and up on that front. Whether or not he's ready to get involved is something else. But I don't think this is a "he's not that into you" kind of thing, for once. I could always be wrong, but I'm going by what he's said.
posted by FlyByDay at 7:13 PM on May 6

It seems to me that you are here to have us validate a decision you've already made. If you want to get involved with him, tell him how you feel on your own time, etc., do it. But be prepared for all the not-so-pleasant scenarios laid out here.
posted by notjustfoxybrown at 9:16 PM on May 6

his most recent relationship ended three years ago.
and now
He said, "give me a few weeks to get all this stuff straight".
This doesn't ring true. How can he fix in a couple of weeks what he hasn't been able to fix for 3 years? Sorry to cast doubt FlyByDay because you sound like you really want this, but maybe that's blinding you a little.
posted by tellurian at 9:46 PM on May 6

I would have fun with him, not obsess over relationship drama.
posted by trevyn at 11:03 PM on May 6

Following up to FlyByDay's comments:

I could always be wrong, but I'm going by what he's said.

See. I think this is a common mistake that women make. They latch on certain words, or phrases, or conversations and then use them as some concrete guide for what should happen next.

Look, in a perfect world men wouldn't say things like, "I love you. I want to be with you." or whatever without meaning it. The fact is though, and I've experienced this many times myself, it's possible to really mean what you're saying when you're saying it and then, maybe, not mean it so much after the fact. That doesn't mean that we're liars. It just means that we can be as confused about our feelings and motives as women are.

That's why I think women really have to both take what men say with a grain of salt, knowing that feelings and commitment levels do change from day to day, and pay attention to the over all behavior of the guy. Men will *show* you through actions that they mean what the say. Of course it takes time to get a good measure on this.

Like I said, in a perfect world, guys would say whatever, one time, and that'd be good enough for everyone. But that's not the way it works.

Whether or not he's ready to get involved is something else.

Um. He's already involved with you. He is having a relationship with you. What's at question in his mind is one of application: what type of relationship, how serious, etc.

Speaking as a guy who has a lot of anecdotal evidence I really think that men are pretty simple animals when it comes to relationships. I think women over think things when usually the initial impression is the correct one. When I said above that if he is acting aloof, it means he is aloof I meant just that. It doesn't mean that he is secretly plotting some relationship bliss or Armageddon behind the scenes. It means that he is probably coasting along on autopilot. Men do this all the time. We go with the flow until a girl says something to us like, "Hey we need to talk about our future," then we usually shit ourselves.

Watch what he does and don't pay too much attention to what he says... then make a choice based on your observations.
posted by wfrgms at 11:52 PM on May 6 [1 favorite]

This doesn't ring true. How can he fix in a couple of weeks what he hasn't been able to fix for 3 years? Sorry to cast doubt FlyByDay because you sound like you really want this, but maybe that's blinding you a little.>>

I don't think he meant he'd get all this cleared up with this woman in a few weeks. That's not realistic. He meant the various other things he's dealing with. It's true I really would like to give this a chance, but my guess is that it won't happen. Esp if men say one thing but mean another, as wfrgms is saying. It's these puzzles that I just can't decipher. When I say something (esp if it affects someone else's emotional well-being), I actually, ya know, MEAN IT.
posted by FlyByDay at 6:43 AM on May 7

I think you have several things going on here. Most important for you is how you are handling these feelings day to day. That's where you are going to be able to make changes that will have an impact on your life (and potentially your relationship).

There's nothing you can do to make things work out. What you can do is make changes in the way you think about things so that (1) the situation stresses you out less; and (2) you are able to contribute as best you can to something working out with this guy.

I think that the real problem with the first part of most relationships is the feelings you are having when you are not around the object of your affection.

That is the 7:52 PM times when you are thinking about someone and then posting a question to AskMeFi. They are adding to stress in your life (or allowing you to avoid thinking about something you don't want to!), and are what is really the problem here.

I suggest learning to be OK with what might happen if it doesn't work out and understanding that you have the emotional resources to deal with the situation should that occurr. Us humans are built to survive war, famine and the death of loved ones and to continue on. Learning to trust that you have such abilities will help you get through your day.

It will also basically constitute the best contribution you can give to any potential situation with him. If he sees that you are going to be fine with any result, it will be easier for him to think about a future with you because he knows you are strong enough to handle it and do not fall into the traps that others have with him.

I think I'm like your guy in a lot of ways--it is hard to be a person who has dealt with people with a lot of major mental-health issues and it most definitely has an effect on your dating relationships. Take it slow. Hit every ball back into his court, and realize he's going to be looking to your reactions to find out if you are going to be different from the experiences he's had before. Showing that you are reliable and that you're not going to be suddenly acting "crazy" or backing off without obvious reason are going to be really, really important to him.
posted by Ironmouth at 8:39 AM on May 7

It's these puzzles that I just can't decipher. When I say something (esp if it affects someone else's emotional well-being), I actually, ya know, MEAN IT.

That's why the more emphasis you put on your feelings will either result in him saying something he thinks you want to hear but not really meaning it or just disengaging from the situation (the more likely scenario). You know how you feel, what you want to know is how he feels. If instead, what you really want (or end up doing) is to share those feelings with him than by doing so in great depth now you'll probably get either an answer under duress or complete disengagement.

Again, I'm only one guy...
posted by fantasticninety at 9:17 AM on May 7

"men react like x, so don't do y to cause it"

Any advice of this sort is bullshit. Men react like A, B, C, D, E, F....etc. They are individuals.

It's these puzzles that I just can't decipher. When I say something (esp if it affects someone else's emotional well-being), I actually, ya know, MEAN IT.

Look, anyone who says "I love you. I want to be with you." without meaning it (even if they "mean it in the moment" or whatever) is, at the very least, very inconsiderate.

Look, be honest, be open, be who you are instead of trying to manipulate him. Yes, it is being manipulative when you calculatedly say things and do things that you wouldn't otherwise do, just to get a certain reaction.

If you can't handle this kind of uncertainty, try saying "I can't handle this uncertainty. I need to know if you want to have an exclusive relationship with me. I also want to know where you see this relationship in the future. "

However he responds, try to trust that he is saying what he means. At the same time, hold him to his words and expect him to behave in a way that reflects what he says.

Good luck--
posted by sondrialiac at 10:24 AM on May 7

If instead, what you really want (or end up doing) is to share those feelings with him than by doing so in great depth now you'll probably get either an answer under duress or complete disengagement.>>

My #1 goal right now is just to have a time to see him again and spend some time together. Beyond that, yeah, it'd be cool if it worked out, but I don't know enough to know if he's the right person. I need some in-person time to determine that, and I don't have another date as of now...
posted by FlyByDay at 3:51 PM on May 7

Much as I hate to say anything that sounds this Rules-y, in this particular situation I would just sit back, not let my fingers do the walking, and let him contact me. With guys, it tends to be more about what they do than what they said. If he puts in the time to contact you, on his own recognizance, you'll know he wants to. If he doesn't bother to contact you, well, he's not that interested/motivated, for whatever reasons he's got.
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:14 PM on May 7

This sounds so much like a situation I was in that I almost want to ask who it is.

What I learned: believe actions, not words.

The nine marriage proposals turned into him needing some time and complete withdrawal. As others have said, nothing I could have done would have changed this.

And the distance would have hurt me, anyway.
posted by Riverine at 5:51 PM on May 8