Grad school choice.

May 4, 2008 7:53 AM

GradSchoolDecisionFilter: Help me choose between NYU and the University of Washington!

So I'm a grad student in English, doing work mostly with science fiction and media theory. I've already accepted an offer from the University of Washington's English department, after angsting over the decision for weeks. What drove this decision was:

* The UW's strong Geography department (much of my work has overlaps with Geography, and there's already grad students in the English department there doing work with professors from over there)
* One fairly big name professor doing cybercultures stuff in the English department, who would most likely be my advisor.
* A reasonable teaching load (fellowship with no teaching first and fifth year, one class a quarter in the years between, chance to teach upper-division courses)
* The public school ethos at the UW is much more attractive to me than the private school/corporate university meanness I've heard about NYU.

What's driving the regret, though, is:

* NYU's the bigger name, with substantially (but not overwhelmingly) better placement.
* NYU is on a hiring spree (including one big name in media studies/print culture coming over this year), while the UW is perennially facing budget cuts.
* I could pretty easily put together a solid committee for media studies work there, involving mostly people who work outside my period, but whose theoretical bent matches mine.
* NYU's teaching schedule is almost unbelievably light -- five years of funding, two years of teaching a section of a large lecture class led by a professor. Seems strange to think about going on the market with only my two years teaching while working on my MA as real teaching experience, but... well, it sounds pretty cushy, would give me more time to get more stuff published, and the job market in English does seem to privilege research over teaching.
* Hey, living in NYC seems like something this particular West Coast boy should do at some time in his life.
but that brings us to the main thing:

* I went to the UW for my BA. It's been five years and an MA between then and now, but going back home for my PhD seems way weird. Also, I have not heard very, very mixed things about what doing BA and PhD at the same school does to one's prospects on the job market. FWIW, most of the actual people I worked with when I was there for my BA are at other schools now -- the department now is quite different from the one back then.

I've found out that NYU didn't hit their wait list this year -- which means that likely the funding for me is still available -- and that there's a chance they'd still let me in. So: should I ask NYU if it's possible to slink back in? At this point (two weeks after the official deadline), I wouldn't ask if I wasn't going to accept a re-opened offer -- it would be too much of a "screw you!" gesture to ask them to jump through the required hoops to get reapproved. So, um, should I?


[Note: This one isn't actually from me, but from my best friend sans MeFi account. Just a'sos you know, even though this part is probably irrelevant.]

posted by anonymous to education (14 comments total)

At the top of the market, your teaching experience is almost irrelevant by comparison with the originality and quality of your dissertation. Not quite irrelevant, but I would never recommend seeking out a heavier teaching load, all other things being equal.

I've had extensive dealings with both schools you're considering (and I am mightily surprised by the terms of the UW offer, which sounds very good to me based on what I know about grad student support there, which is that it used to be awful for most students and there was definitely a two-class system in the departments I knew then, with a small number of well funded students and a large number living quarter to quarter with heavy teaching loads).

NYU is really no more corporate than UW, bottom line; yes UW is a public institution, but an elite one; the the extent it *is* a public institution, the ethos is less than conducive to free speech (again, in my experience) in a state with a powerful right wing political tradition and direct oversight of the University by the legislature. NYU has its very strange cultural issues, but it's in a wonderful place to break outside the box of your campus life every day and live a more diversified life. And frankly, if media studies is your thing, it's one of the two or three best places to be in the country. Seems obvious to me, anyway, that you'd go to NYU.

Also, it's almost *always* a good idea to change schools between BA and PhD, not because it directly hurts you in the job market, but because it limits your exposure to new networks of colleagues and mentors and new ideas that circulate in those networks.
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:17 AM on May 4, 2008

Didn't process your last part -- that's going to be hard, I think, but good luck.
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:17 AM on May 4, 2008

So wait, this is the situation:

(1) You got into NYU and UW
(2) You chose UW
(3) You have buyer's remorse
(4) You are thinking of telling UW, and the big-name advisor there, to go fuck themselves and try, but maybe not succeed, to accept the NYU position you already declined?

No, don't do that.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:22 AM on May 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

What ROU said.
You made your choice.
Both have merit.
But you made your choice.
(You're gonna love it!)
posted by Dizzy at 8:36 AM on May 4, 2008

Breaking things down:

Pro-UW:

Strong geography department matters... to the extent that it helps you get work done, and to the extent that English search committees will recognize geography names on your recommendation letters.

Big name in your subfield to be your advisor: huge. Especially if BigName has already indicated a willingness to be your advisor.

Teaching load: That sounds like a normal teaching load for funded students. Look into your heart at your goals and expectations. Do you plan on really, sincerely, being competitive for R1 jobs? Then teaching is irrelevant. Do you expect that where you'll be honestly really competitive is at teaching-oriented public schools and (S)LACs? Then teaching a couple of upper-division courses could be useful to you.

Public/private: irrelevant. You are wrong in thinking that major universities have coherent ethoses in that way. Departments do, but there are nests of vipers in public and private schools both.

Pro-NYU:

Bigger name and better placement record: this matters. But at the same time, having the right advisor is an important part of getting placed.

NYU is hiring: meh. There's no way of knowing what the future will bring at either school.

Sounds like it would be harder to put together your committee there: this matters.

Lighter teaching: yeah, but it's not that much lighter, and UW's is in the normal range. Two years of teaching instead of three, and courses instead of sections. Doesn't sound that big to me. Also, if you haven't TA'd before, who you work for can be a big deal. I had a couple of years TAing sections in grad school that were far, far worse than teaching my own course because the listed prof was a grade-A prick.

NYC: ignore this. Living someplace you can stand is important, since you'll be there for a few years. But if anything, living someplace that's not a nest of distractions might be better.

BA at UW: At this point, and with an intervening degree, I have to think that this wouldn't be a huge deal. If I were on a search committee, I wouldn't care. The people I'd care about were the ones who got a BA from someplace and immediately stayed to do their MA and PhD.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:38 AM on May 4, 2008

It seems clear to me, at least, that you WANT to go to NYU. And changing schools for your graduate degree is of course a better idea.

However, I'm in the "you made your bed, lie in it" camp.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:49 AM on May 4, 2008

From what you said, you wouldn't be placing anyone at UW in a terrible position if you went to NYU instead. I see no harm in asking NYU if you still have a chance of going there. What you *should* do, I have no idea.
posted by lukemeister at 9:04 AM on May 4, 2008

Listen to ROU_Xenophobe (both of those posts are exactly the advice you need). This mostly sounds like an ordinary case of cold feet to me; the decision was a toss-up, and you made a choice, so stick with it. Spend a year or two at UW getting to know your prospective committee members, forming a more concrete dissertation plan, and writing some shorter pieces for seminars and publication in the fields you want to build a profile in. If there really are clear reasons why UW won't work for you and NYU would, stronger ones than the ones listed here (which range from irrelevant/trivial/wrong ["ethos," NYC, "bigger name"] to not that big a deal [teaching load], as ROU_Xenophobe has explained in detail), then you can reapply in a year or two with a still stronger CV and a clear statement of purpose explaining why NYU really was the place for you. For now, UW sounds like a fine place based on this description.
posted by RogerB at 9:42 AM on May 4, 2008

Yes, you will make the UW people angry if you change your mind after accepting, because there is a good chance *they* can't roll that offer over to someone else now; not all departments or graduate schools use a waiting list system. They won't hate you forever, but forget about changing your mind again and coming back in a year or two. I know I'd look dubiously on that, as a director of a grad program myself.
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:02 AM on May 4, 2008

Other than belonging to a school with a horrid football program (Huck the Fuskies!!!) I don't see any reason you shouldn't go to Udub. As others have said, this is typical buyer's remorse. From the information you supplied, even if he had not yet made a decision between these two schools, it would be a close call. Now that you've made the decision ... well, there's really not much reason to try to retrace your steps. University of Washington will be awesome. Repeat this until you believe it.
posted by Happydaz at 10:06 AM on May 4, 2008

I would absolutely ask NYU if there's still room for you. And then I'd probably go.
posted by meerkatty at 11:59 AM on May 4, 2008

I am one of the people in charge of graduate admissions at a big state university much like UW. Yes, it is slightly annoying if people change their mind after the fact. But if an incoming student came to me and told me that, after further reflection, they really wanted to go to another program, I would encourage them to renege on their acceptance without hesitation. We don't want students to be here unless they really want to be here!
posted by escabeche at 12:33 PM on May 4, 2008

Like Escabeche, I am involved with graduate admissions at a flagship state university. I'd be mildly annoyed if a student we admitted and funded decided to pull out after the deadline and go somewhere else. But I could find another student who could use that funding, and I don't want someone in my program who would constantly be wondering whether life would be better at the other place.
posted by brianogilvie at 6:52 PM on May 4, 2008

Hmm... it's worth calling NYU. The placement record + lighter teaching load (teaching is a GIANT TIME-SUCK THAT MAKES IT REALLY HARD TO DO RESEARCH) + change of location from undergrad are things that are worth a stab. I'd call them, and if they say yes, have a heart-to-heart with the UW people.

IF and only if, that is, you are pretty sure you can get just as heavy an advisor at NYU. Because that's a big deal.
posted by paultopia at 9:38 PM on May 4, 2008