God bless the Grammar Natzi's
April 21, 2008 12:33 PM Subscribe
Copy editors or grammar natzi's: I am pre-copy editing a manuscript for my friend. Is it acceptable to start a sentence with the word "but"? I am leaning towards no but I can't remember. Also what are the rules about mentioning name brands in novels? such as "Hilton" or "Boston Red Sox" or "Boston Globe"?
Thank you so much!
Breakfast at Tiffany's seems on point.
posted by Freedomboy at 12:38 PM on April 21, 2008
posted by Freedomboy at 12:38 PM on April 21, 2008
Yes.
At the beginning of a sentence "but" is used in the same way as "however." Though in conversation some people have suggested that, for them, "but" signals less of a break from the previous material than "however" does.
posted by oddman at 12:38 PM on April 21, 2008
At the beginning of a sentence "but" is used in the same way as "however." Though in conversation some people have suggested that, for them, "but" signals less of a break from the previous material than "however" does.
posted by oddman at 12:38 PM on April 21, 2008
1) But is most certainly acceptable at the beginning of a sentence, particularly in a novel.
2) Brand names are fine. It would be pretty weird if they weren't.
3) Invest in The Chicago Manual of Style.
posted by Hypocrite_Lecteur at 12:40 PM on April 21, 2008
2) Brand names are fine. It would be pretty weird if they weren't.
3) Invest in The Chicago Manual of Style.
posted by Hypocrite_Lecteur at 12:40 PM on April 21, 2008
In very formal writing, I would say no; coordinating conjunctions such as "but" serve to join words, phrases, or clauses within a sentence. But in any other sort of writing, including novels, I'd say it's OK.
Yes, I did that intentionally to illustrate my point.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 12:40 PM on April 21, 2008
Yes, I did that intentionally to illustrate my point.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 12:40 PM on April 21, 2008
"Many of us were taught that no sentence should begin with 'but.' If that'’s what you learned, unlearn it--there is no stronger word at the start. It announces total contrast with what has gone before, and the reader is primed for the change." -- Zinsser
posted by nitsuj at 12:40 PM on April 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by nitsuj at 12:40 PM on April 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
If you're only pre-copyediting, you can just circle those and add a question mark to call attention to the problem for the actual copyeditor. You don't need to solve the problem.
I'm guessing your friend is going to pay the copyeditor by the hour or by the page and wants to save some money by catching most of the problem first. But it'll probably end up costing the same either way - usually they don't get paid by the change, and copyediting is slow, exacting work. They should be catching most of what you would catch and much more, as well.
posted by Miko at 12:41 PM on April 21, 2008
I'm guessing your friend is going to pay the copyeditor by the hour or by the page and wants to save some money by catching most of the problem first. But it'll probably end up costing the same either way - usually they don't get paid by the change, and copyediting is slow, exacting work. They should be catching most of what you would catch and much more, as well.
posted by Miko at 12:41 PM on April 21, 2008
"But" is fine, brand names are fine. If you really want to do your friend a big favor, Google the brand names that crop up and visit the corporate sites that control those names so that you know what the actual names should be. Keep an eye out for midcaps (e.g., Travelodge doesn't have one, and also has only one "L"), oddly placed hyphens, and the like.
I used to work for a travel guide publisher, and this was among the most tedious of copyediting tasks.
Also, if you got the piece in electronic format, spellcheck it. Do it even your friend says she did it. Do it anyway.
posted by rtha at 12:53 PM on April 21, 2008
I used to work for a travel guide publisher, and this was among the most tedious of copyediting tasks.
Also, if you got the piece in electronic format, spellcheck it. Do it even your friend says she did it. Do it anyway.
posted by rtha at 12:53 PM on April 21, 2008
Response by poster: Thanks all, no need to call me out on not being a copy editor, I know I am not a copy editor I have no problem admitting that. I am mostly looking for missing quotes or things that just don't sound right or make sense. I just happen to pick up on wrong words here and there such as "English tutor' when he is referring to an English tudor style house. This is his first novel he doesn't know what to expect from a copy editor. Its a learning process I suppose. The question about the "but" and the formal names was just a question that kept floating around my head that was bugging me personally because I didn't know the correct answer.
posted by meeshell at 1:04 PM on April 21, 2008
posted by meeshell at 1:04 PM on April 21, 2008
I have no grammatical objection to starting a sentence with But.
However, "Yes, but ..." is effectively no. So depending on what a person is trying to say, one should ask oneself whether an idea is being presented with integrity if you have to engage in a sneaky attack like that. The Judo / Aikido - like alternative would be to engage (via "yes") and then enlarge the scope of the question to show another point of view. Not the false dichotomy of a contrast, but a turning.
Many people understand this instinctively. I have heard that the WSJ does not allow the use of "but" in its articles (as a conjunction of the form Full sentence, But Another Full Sentence). Perhaps what is grating on you in your proofreading is not the grammatical usage but the feeling of deception or clunky flow.
In this highly political season, I find it an interesting exercise to count how many times a politician uses the form "Yes ..., but". It's a little disappointing, actually.
posted by Araucaria at 1:23 PM on April 21, 2008
However, "Yes, but ..." is effectively no. So depending on what a person is trying to say, one should ask oneself whether an idea is being presented with integrity if you have to engage in a sneaky attack like that. The Judo / Aikido - like alternative would be to engage (via "yes") and then enlarge the scope of the question to show another point of view. Not the false dichotomy of a contrast, but a turning.
Many people understand this instinctively. I have heard that the WSJ does not allow the use of "but" in its articles (as a conjunction of the form Full sentence, But Another Full Sentence). Perhaps what is grating on you in your proofreading is not the grammatical usage but the feeling of deception or clunky flow.
In this highly political season, I find it an interesting exercise to count how many times a politician uses the form "Yes ..., but". It's a little disappointing, actually.
posted by Araucaria at 1:23 PM on April 21, 2008
Of course, depending on the kind of novel this is, deceiving the reader might be the whole point :-). As in, "Everything you thought you knew up to this point is wrong."
posted by Araucaria at 1:28 PM on April 21, 2008
posted by Araucaria at 1:28 PM on April 21, 2008
You don't need to avoid trademarked names (in any writing context), you just have to capitalize them (Kleenex, Dumpster, and Frisbee are examples of trademarked names that many people use as regular nouns). And weird words like Dalmatian are capped (because the name of the breed comes from a location). Note that only fellow grammar Nazis may notice, however.
posted by chowflap at 1:37 PM on April 21, 2008
posted by chowflap at 1:37 PM on April 21, 2008
Just to add to the wisdom of the crowd: It is absolutely acceptable to begin a sentence with "But." And, to answer your other question, it is also acceptable to use trademarked brand names.
posted by General Malaise at 2:03 PM on April 21, 2008
posted by General Malaise at 2:03 PM on April 21, 2008
"but" is fine.
brand names are fine. they are capped. titles of books, plays, tv series, newspapers, etc. are italicized. titles of chapters, poems, newspaper sections have quotes. hence: the "Style" section of the Boston Globe.
i would also recommend a copy of the chicago manual of style if this is something that interests you.
posted by thinkingwoman at 2:04 PM on April 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
brand names are fine. they are capped. titles of books, plays, tv series, newspapers, etc. are italicized. titles of chapters, poems, newspaper sections have quotes. hence: the "Style" section of the Boston Globe.
i would also recommend a copy of the chicago manual of style if this is something that interests you.
posted by thinkingwoman at 2:04 PM on April 21, 2008 [1 favorite]
Mod note: a few comments removed - you may upbraid the OPs own grammar in MeMail if you desire.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:08 PM on April 21, 2008
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:08 PM on April 21, 2008
Agree with all about "But..." But I have to dissent on the acceptability of brand names. I've done work for one publisher who would not allow them at all in certain types of nonfiction material; a Sharpie was a fine-point permanent marker, Cheerios were O-shaped cereal, and so on. So it really is a matter of house style. Personally I would avoid them in a novel, when possible, because they can make any writing resemble an advertisement.
posted by libraryhead at 4:22 PM on April 21, 2008
posted by libraryhead at 4:22 PM on April 21, 2008
Seconding libraryhead's caution about brand names. It can just be lazy writing. Unless the author is deliberately using the brand name to help set the period and place. A generic description is better. And will age better.
But never start a sentence with 'And'.
posted by Sitegeist at 5:42 PM on April 21, 2008
But never start a sentence with 'And'.
posted by Sitegeist at 5:42 PM on April 21, 2008
I've always allowed, and been allowed to use "but" at the beginning of a sentence. I had a professor in grad school, however, who wouldn't allow me to begin a sentence with "however." I could only use in as a parenthetical expression or at the start of a main clause after a semicolon. He was fun to write for. But I still can't start a sentence with "however" without feeling dirty.
And I'm thirding the brand name warning. I just got done sloughing through a novel I hated for many reasons, one of them being the excessive use of brand names. Characters didn't talk on a phone, they talked on a Motorola. They didn't drink coffee, they drank Starbucks. They didn't go to a bookstore, they went to Barnes and Noble. They didn't numb the pain of their brand-name driven existence with antidepressants, they took Prozac. It gave me the impression that the writer was both lazy and a shill.
posted by bibliowench at 7:42 PM on April 21, 2008
And I'm thirding the brand name warning. I just got done sloughing through a novel I hated for many reasons, one of them being the excessive use of brand names. Characters didn't talk on a phone, they talked on a Motorola. They didn't drink coffee, they drank Starbucks. They didn't go to a bookstore, they went to Barnes and Noble. They didn't numb the pain of their brand-name driven existence with antidepressants, they took Prozac. It gave me the impression that the writer was both lazy and a shill.
posted by bibliowench at 7:42 PM on April 21, 2008
Former fiction editor and copyeditor here: If your friend sells his book, the publisher will pay the copyeditor. If the book has so many grammar or other mistakes that no publisher will buy it, then your friend needs to learn to write better, not rely on you to learn to copyedit better. (Note: Even novels with no grammar or other mistakes may not interest a publisher, but a book with interesting characters and an intriguing plot might sell even with some grammar mistakes.)
posted by Joleta at 8:05 PM on April 21, 2008
posted by Joleta at 8:05 PM on April 21, 2008
Araucaria However, "Yes, but ..." is effectively no. So depending on what a person is trying to say, one should ask oneself whether an idea is being presented with integrity if you have to engage in a sneaky attack like that.
Yes, this construction can be used in that manner, and definitely is by politicians, but not exclusively so. "Do you want to schedule our meetings on Fridays?" "Yes, but on Friday the 5th, I'll be out of town." "Do you think men are more likely to be sarcastic than women?" "Yes, but Janet is a lot more sarcastic than most men." "I left my washing out, did it rain yesterday?" "Yes, but I took your clothes in."
To me, it seems to express broad agreement with a reservation, sometimes only a quibbling reservation.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 9:35 PM on April 21, 2008
Yes, this construction can be used in that manner, and definitely is by politicians, but not exclusively so. "Do you want to schedule our meetings on Fridays?" "Yes, but on Friday the 5th, I'll be out of town." "Do you think men are more likely to be sarcastic than women?" "Yes, but Janet is a lot more sarcastic than most men." "I left my washing out, did it rain yesterday?" "Yes, but I took your clothes in."
To me, it seems to express broad agreement with a reservation, sometimes only a quibbling reservation.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 9:35 PM on April 21, 2008
CIA = Center for Interactive Advertising.
Sorry for that.
posted by whimsicalnymph at 4:19 PM on April 22, 2008
Sorry for that.
posted by whimsicalnymph at 4:19 PM on April 22, 2008
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 12:35 PM on April 21, 2008 [1 favorite]