where to go? what to do?

April 12, 2008 11:47 AM

my marriage is being destroyed by geography

I'll try to make this brief, but believe me it isn't. My wife and I have been together for almost 20 years. I'm originally from USA, she's from Canada. We've been in the UK for 2 years as I do my PhD. Neither of us like it here. The end is approaching in fall, and we have to go SOMEWHERE. I want to go back to the state I'm from, she wants to go back to where we were living in Canada before we came here. I don't really want to live in the USA again but do want to live in my state. She doesn't have a burning urge to go back where we were before, but is too burnt out and tired to consider anything else. We have a substantial but not limitless amount of money saved, with which I could buy a small house, mortgage free, in my state, but which would not cover the more expensive real estate where she wants to go. My preferred plan is to buy a small house in my state, live there cheaply on savings with no jobs, recovering from this largely horrible experience, while I try to publish and develop my CV and try to find a job, then moving to where the job is and keeping the small house as a summer place. She wants to go back to where we were in Canada, get jobs there and get a house and not move. She is a nurse and highly employable but utterly burnt out and badly in need of a serious break. I nearly have a PhD in Art History and am (you guessed it) highly unemployable.
I'll spare you the endless and incriminating personal details that further complicate this situation, and simply ask for any practical solutions that might emerge from the hive mind.

posted by arcadia to Human Relations (22 answers total)

It strikes me that you don't really need to live any particular place in order to carry out your plan, so the best course is to do what your wife wants.
posted by Class Goat at 11:51 AM on April 12, 2008 [3 favorites]

First of all, it sounds like any other place will be better. So it's going to get better, no matter what. That's good news, yes?

Now - why do you each hate living in the UK? That could help us know why she's burnt out and what specifically she needs in order to recuperate.
posted by amtho at 11:53 AM on April 12, 2008

Are you going to be looking for a job as an academic historian? If so, you know that you have to be ready to move anywhere at all. I wouldn't be buying a house anywhere right now. If you end up as an assistant professor in the humanities in an area with a high cost of living you will need those savings for a down payment. Good luck.
posted by LarryC at 11:54 AM on April 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

My Dad's motto....Happy wife, happy life.
posted by pearlybob at 11:58 AM on April 12, 2008 [8 favorites]

do what she wants... she did follow you to the UK to finish *your* Phd. It seems like you are also doing this to keep your academic dreams afloat: I think this is the real issue, not geography. I think she is probably as burnt out on that as where you are living. I doubt what she really wants is to be unemployed while you keep working on your cv, unpaid, and then in the best case scenario move to some unknown place for your job.

Also, owning a house, even mortgage free, is never as cheap as you think it's going to be.

Seriously, I think you and your wife are probably farther apart than you are letting yourself think. Take a deep breath and ask yourself what an academic career is worth to you.
posted by geos at 12:00 PM on April 12, 2008 [2 favorites]

Here's an idea. Why don't the two of you depart from the UK at the appropriate time (September, I presume) and just... take a break? It sounds like you both badly, badly need to put the brakes on for a bit.

Your wife just spent 2 years hanging out in Bad Land for you, so maybe just rent a cabin somewhere in Canada on a lake for three months (off season = cheaper!), build fires, read books, drink wine, go for walks, stop opposing each other and put off any decisions until the new year.
posted by DarlingBri at 12:18 PM on April 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

You say your wife needs a break but she says she wants to get a job. I think she probably knows what she needs/wants better than you do, so listen to what she says. Why don't you go where she wants, let her get a job like she wants, and try to live cheaply (i.e. rent for a while) while you work on publishing and getting an academic job. When when/if you get a job offer somewhere else, you'll still have some savings and you'll be in a better place to have the "should be move? is my job worth this?" conversation. Plus, you won't own real estate tying you to one particular city/town.

You say you don't want to live in the United States, and neither does your wife. Why don't you use that as a starting point and see what else you can agree on from there. Can you both agree to rent? Does she really want to go back to work? Will she mind working a day job while you don't?
posted by ohio at 12:18 PM on April 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

Make your wife happy. As a nurse, she's going to end up supporting you for the short run no matter where you live. You'll also save money by choosing one place to live in (home purchasers typically need five years to recoup their investment). As well, wouldn't it be nice to feel settled?

And no matter where you yourself are, you're going to have to figure out what to do with your degree. However, your wife knows what she wants to do.

And...isn't there a contradiction in your question? You say you never want to live in the States ever again, but want to live in your State. You also say you don't care where you want to live, just not Canada or where your wife is from.

Canada, I might add, has it good. The real estate market (as you noted) is booming, there are plenty of jobs, and we will probably evade the economic hardship the US is entering into.
posted by KokuRyu at 12:21 PM on April 12, 2008

If you're going to be unemployed you might as well be unemployed in Canada where you'll get medical coverage.
posted by GuyZero at 12:35 PM on April 12, 2008 [9 favorites]

1. Traditional advice for the husband is:

If She's Not Happy, I'm Not Happy.

The truths behind this are many and nuanced, as I'm sure you know, after 20 years.

2. Suggested Action: Approach the situation with flair, zest, even humor: hold a We're-Leaving-England-And-Not-Coming-Back celebration!

Wine. Cheese. Kazoos. Bonfire for a map of the UK. Once everyone's in a good mood, then make sure she really wants to go back to Canada. (Maybe she secretly wants to go be a rancher on the pampas of Argentina - if so, then go there and make it work. Or if going back to Canada and working is her thing, then do it and make it work - happily.)
posted by coffeefilter at 12:38 PM on April 12, 2008

This is reminiscent of the struggle between me and my fiance. It sounds like location and stability are very important to her, as they are to me. I'd have a hard time being happy in a place I despised. I'd also have a hard time moving around every few years. When stressed, I will invariably opt for familiarity over novelty, and that sounds like what she's doing. She sounds like she feels trapped and foreign in the UK and just wants to go home. See if you can give her a break before you two make a final decision, so she can make her choice without feeling backed into a corner.
posted by desjardins at 12:44 PM on April 12, 2008

Depending on the size of the city you move to, your wife will have a fair to decent chance of getting work that doesnt suck too bad.

A PhD in Art History? That's a teaching gig at a jr college, and they are all pretty much the same. Or a straight ticket to sales clerk at Barnes and Noble.

In a large city there are a lot of vectors for that art degree, from basic teaching, to teaching art therapy at the county jail or whatnot. More people, more universities, more opportunities. Simple math.

Shoot for a place that has hopefully at least two junior colleges and a respected hospital. Im figuring a population of at least 100K. Hopefully it is a place both of you can make work.

I mean, I don't know anyone who gets up in the morning and decides they want to move to (enter city/state) but once you are there, and lay down some roots, meet some neighbors, get hornswaggled to help with the Cub Scout thing. It could turn out to be really nice.

I would lay off the real estate for now, until things are better settled all the way around.

Developing your CV and getting published is just going to be a two year hole that will do nothing more than get you one rung up the ladder at a shot at a asst. prof spot.

Have some friends in a similar situation. She got the better post so that's where they bought the house. His teaching job is three hours away so he rents a room in a house during the week, and comes home on weekends.

Both PhD's, in Rhetoric, and have spent their entire lives trying to teach farmboys to think. Almost all of their students go on to an Ag or Engineering college and have probably made it there without ever actually reading a book

Small town options? Maybe you will be the seventh grade art teacher
Medium town options?: You wife doesn't hate her job
Big Town Options: Many hospitals to choose from, many museums, foundations, libraries and schools to choose from. Plus teaching art etc.


Geos made a very good point btw.
posted by timsteil at 1:00 PM on April 12, 2008

Two unhappy people living jobless in a small house in the wilderness doesn't sound like a recipe for happiness. And if you're trying to finish your PhD (or prepare some post doctoral publications--your question isn't really clear on this point), you probably shouldn't be in an isolated area with cheap real estate, but somewhere with conferences and a good research library and an academic community.

Take a longer or shorter vacation--maybe somewhere sunny--and then get back into the thick of things. Despite the romantic notion that a wilderness retreat will help you finish and mend your relationship, it would more likely suck up time and money (always a new thing to fix), put stress on your relationship, and interfere with the completion of your degree and/or academic networking.

Get a summer place later, if you still want one. After-all, you might end up wanting one in a different location, depending on where (and, it must be said, whether) you're able to get a good teaching job.

I mean, maybe you could work this out in either way, but especially given your wife's thinking on the issue, I'd say that buying a vacation place first is putting the cart before the horse.
posted by washburn at 1:05 PM on April 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

I think you owe your wife one. A big one.

In your shoes, I think I'd try to figure out a short-term option (like 1-3 months) that would make me and the wife happy, just to decompress from the bad experience and get your bearings. Can you rent a shack in Hawaii?

Also, just on a financial note, if you have enough money saved up to buy a house outright, you still probably should not do that. If you can invest most of it and get a higher rate of return than your mortgage, you come out ahead. And if you wind up in the USA, there are tax benefits to paying mortgage interest (don't know about Canada). Regardless, you've got a big enough wad of cash you should maybe sit down with a financial planner for an hour.
posted by adamrice at 1:19 PM on April 12, 2008 [2 favorites]

If you are on the academic track (which I assume you are because you mention CV and publishing), you will have to be highly mobile for the next 2-8 years, give or take. Buying a house right now and getting attached to any particular city/state/country is not a very good idea. If you are extra lucky, you will get offered a tenure-track job right away, and only have to move once. A more common scenario is to have two or three one- or two-year visiting positions before getting the tenure-track offer; even then there is the chance that the fit is poor and you leave after a year or three (not to mention the nightmare of a tenure denial).

So the immediate move -- the one before you go on the job market -- should definitely be your wife's choice, because the next three or four moves are going to be determined by you, and may be to some really awful locations (especially from her point of view -- East Nowhere State U may be a great job for you for a year, but for her it will offer no work, no social life, and far from home). Think of this coming year as a gift you can give her, knowing that she has made sacrifices for you, and will make many more in the coming years.

If you aren't on the academic track, ignore everything I said above except the part about making your wife happy. In the long run, her happiness will have a lot more to do with your quality of life than will the town you live in, your job, or almost anything else in the world.
posted by Forktine at 1:32 PM on April 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

do what she wants... she did follow you to the UK to finish *your* Phd.

Yeah, I have to second this, as well as the general "happy wife, happy life" sentiment. I don't know what this "I want to go back to the state I'm from" thing is about, but I suspect it isn't really about your love for your native state. Decide whether your marriage is a going concern apart from the geography issue; if it is, if you love your wife and want to stay married to her, move to Canada and worry about the academic shit later. You don't know how it's going to turn out anyway. A marriage in the hand is worth vague dreams of academic glory off in cloud-cuckoo-land. (I speak as one who left a city I loved to move to the middle of nowhere for the sake of my wife's happiness, and I'm happy myself. A good marriage is the best thing in the world.)
posted by languagehat at 5:04 PM on April 12, 2008 [2 favorites]

worry about the academic shit later.

It sounds like you're already planning to "worry about the academic shit later", so if that's the case, I also don't really see the up side of your plan - it does sound like she already made a concession to your geographical needs once, and she wants to return to where you were originally, so she's not asking for something special for herself, so much as just to stop having to do favors for you.

However, if you are planning to pursue an academic career, you should be talking about the possibility of moving to wherever, as that is the standard model for a professor. If either or both of you have issues with maybe having to move to ann arbor or denver or st. louis or whatever random city the job is offered in, you should be talking about it. Each of you should know what your limits are, what your minimal requirements are, how long you'd be willing to stay where, etc, and what your plan B will be if a job in the right place (or a job at all, for that matter) doesn't come along.
posted by mdn at 5:54 PM on April 12, 2008

It sounds like your next move will definitely not be your last move, so in a way, it really doesn't matter where you go. And I'd really advise against buying a house right now. You'll be sinking all your savings into a vacation place and then you won't have any money to buy a house to actually live in?! It just doesn't make sense.

Go with what your wife wants for now, with the understanding that it will not be permanent and you'll be revisiting the decision later.
posted by orange swan at 6:40 PM on April 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

FWIW, owning a summer place isn't as great as it seems. Once you own it, you feel obliged to use it, which means that much of your vacation time becomes devoted to a single destination... a destination where you have to do alot of maintenance and yard work, just like at home. If you wind up living far from your state, this will be a real nuisance. Renting the place out and/or paying a caretaker/maintenance firm is simply another set of hassles for less income than you might think. You can enjoy a lot of varied vacations that truely provide a respite from daily life for the money and time you'll have wrapped up in this house.
posted by carmicha at 7:06 PM on April 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

Mrs. ob and I were talking to someone last night who's been married for 46 years. She brought up the oft-cited statement that marriage is 50/50 and she said that anyone who thinks that hasn't been married for very long. She went on to say that in fact a lot of the time marriage is 20/80 and then it might be 70/30 and very occasionally it might be 50/50. She was talking specifically of moving around and being flexible with jobs and geographical locations. I think those are pretty wise words.
posted by ob at 9:24 PM on April 12, 2008

work it out properly. its not a matter of choosing a or b. you need to go through detail for each other, if what you need. a place to ride, a good coffee shop, church close by, the sound of the ocean, etc etc. list every little thing, then discuss what can be compromised and what cant. you will both have to compromise, so try and agree. and lay it all out, so everythin is on the table. "go with what your wife wants" is the worst advice i have ever heard.
posted by edtut at 2:30 AM on April 13, 2008

Everyone has different comfort levels with planned unemployment. You want a bit of a break with niether of you working and she wants you both working. Does she look at your savings as retirement or emergency savings? Taking six months off work when you are twenty still gives you forty or so working years to build savings up. If you are both in your forties she may be concerned that spending your savings now will delay retirement into your sixties or seventies. Nursing is a physically hard job to do past your forties and if she is always beginning new jobs at the bottom of the senority ladder she will always be working the lousy shifts that make it even harder. Obviously you love each other very much to endure two years of hell together so I don't think her reasonable plan to return to familiar settings (near family perhaps?) is asking too much of you. And if she has been supporting you in school she might be thinking now is time for you to step up and contribute financially to the family's bottom line. Just going by the headlines, it looks like Canada has a better employment outlook than the US right now.

Buying a possibly unusable summer home when you don't know where you will be living in a couple of years is a bad move. If the houses are so cheap now they will be probably be even cheaper in a couple of years (you have seen the housing bubble threads?), making it hard for you to sell if you need the money for a primary residence or find your upstate NY summer house too far from California to be useful.
posted by saucysault at 9:44 AM on April 13, 2008