Where are the entry level developer jobs?
April 8, 2008 8:19 AM Subscribe
Computer Jobs filter: My friend recently graduated with a BS in Information Systems (after a long hiatus away from school). He has pre-college experience in database architecture using MS Access, but his other skills (MySQL, pHp) are learned on his own. He wants to find a job as a DBA or a web developer, but doesn't have the 3+ years of professional experience everyone wants. Even if he's able to learn Oracle, Python, Ruby, etc. on his own, how can he prove he knows them without resume experience to back him up?
Add to the mix that he's a serious introvert, and pretty nearly unable to come in and charm the HR people. He's looking at the Central Florida area, but tips from all over are welcome.
Add to the mix that he's a serious introvert, and pretty nearly unable to come in and charm the HR people. He's looking at the Central Florida area, but tips from all over are welcome.
1. Portfolio
2. Employers in the field vary in requirements. Some want a degree. Some really want experience. Some consider them interchangeable.
3. Sometimes if there's a particular vital skill involved, there will be some quick "test questions" during the interview to double-check. This, of course, gives "good test takers" an advantage over the jargon-impaired, but if your friend might be better at answering "What does widget X do?" than schmoozing and people skills, this might actually work in his favor.
posted by gimonca at 8:25 AM on April 8, 2008
2. Employers in the field vary in requirements. Some want a degree. Some really want experience. Some consider them interchangeable.
3. Sometimes if there's a particular vital skill involved, there will be some quick "test questions" during the interview to double-check. This, of course, gives "good test takers" an advantage over the jargon-impaired, but if your friend might be better at answering "What does widget X do?" than schmoozing and people skills, this might actually work in his favor.
posted by gimonca at 8:25 AM on April 8, 2008
Microsoft Access isn't a serious database system and MySQL/PHP speaks of web applications coding and not DB administration. Having experience with them does not qualify you to be a DBA.
With the type of experience you describe he should be looking for a junior position where he can learn what it takes to be a DBA. Then he can work his way up if he has the skills.
posted by splice at 8:25 AM on April 8, 2008
With the type of experience you describe he should be looking for a junior position where he can learn what it takes to be a DBA. Then he can work his way up if he has the skills.
posted by splice at 8:25 AM on April 8, 2008
The university should have a placement office full of people that will help him put together a resume, polish his interview skills and find a job in his field.
posted by mmascolino at 8:26 AM on April 8, 2008
posted by mmascolino at 8:26 AM on April 8, 2008
Portfolio, portfolio, portfolio.
He also needs to work on the introversion. That'll kill his career chances quicker than the MS Access skillz.
posted by unixrat at 8:32 AM on April 8, 2008
He also needs to work on the introversion. That'll kill his career chances quicker than the MS Access skillz.
posted by unixrat at 8:32 AM on April 8, 2008
Ditto splice. I think he's looking for job level that he's not [yet] qualified for.
While he is taking classes toward a DBA certificate (I would do Oracle before SQL Server, but it depends on the local job market in FL), he could be looking around for volunteer experience.
Places like churches, historical societies and park district sports leagues all often have the combination of database needs and limited resources that scream out for volunteer help. And it might also help the networking/social skills aspect either.
posted by SuperSquirrel at 8:35 AM on April 8, 2008
While he is taking classes toward a DBA certificate (I would do Oracle before SQL Server, but it depends on the local job market in FL), he could be looking around for volunteer experience.
Places like churches, historical societies and park district sports leagues all often have the combination of database needs and limited resources that scream out for volunteer help. And it might also help the networking/social skills aspect either.
posted by SuperSquirrel at 8:35 AM on April 8, 2008
People are right about the importance of demonstrating previous work. Building my resume right out of school I went through all my CSci classes and picked out the technologies that I had used that seemed appropriate - Linux, any languages, database work, etc. Then I picked a few projects, both academic and personal, and gave quick summaries of technologies, concepts, and implementations that I had used. This is your work experience at this point.
Learning skills on your own (Oracle, Python, Ruby, etc.) and doing something with them is good because it shows that you are motivated and interested in this stuff as more than just a paycheck, which in this field is a big plus. Learn the language or database and have a project to show for it, something to point to at the interview.
Networking is also key. Does he have friends from the department at school? How about professors? I got my last two jobs because of my resume and interview, but I only found out about the openings because of friends from school.
posted by Who_Am_I at 9:14 AM on April 8, 2008
Learning skills on your own (Oracle, Python, Ruby, etc.) and doing something with them is good because it shows that you are motivated and interested in this stuff as more than just a paycheck, which in this field is a big plus. Learn the language or database and have a project to show for it, something to point to at the interview.
Networking is also key. Does he have friends from the department at school? How about professors? I got my last two jobs because of my resume and interview, but I only found out about the openings because of friends from school.
posted by Who_Am_I at 9:14 AM on April 8, 2008
I think SpecialK is correct. Try to find a job at a university. Possibly in a big state university in a small college town. Most of the time they have difficulties recruiting people since people don't like to relocate to those small college towns.
Additionally they normally don't have those outrages strict deadlines you would find in the industry. So your friend will have time to learn new technologies and build up his/her carrier.
posted by WizKid at 9:22 AM on April 8, 2008
Additionally they normally don't have those outrages strict deadlines you would find in the industry. So your friend will have time to learn new technologies and build up his/her carrier.
posted by WizKid at 9:22 AM on April 8, 2008
Heck, if he wouldn't mind moving to TX, I've got two jobs here in town that he's qualified for. :-P College station ain't all that bad, there's an engineering school here so there's a pretty good concentration of nerds.
posted by SpecialK at 9:41 AM on April 8, 2008
posted by SpecialK at 9:41 AM on April 8, 2008
A job doing IT support at a larger company (where there is an "IT Department" with specialized roles instead of one overworked nerd) is a good foot-in-the-door where you can work your way into one of those roles.
posted by mkultra at 9:55 AM on April 8, 2008
posted by mkultra at 9:55 AM on April 8, 2008
Demonstrating your skills as a web developer is really straightforward - you just build some stuff. And if you have talent you'll learn from it, and then build some better stuff. At some point you end up with some great stuff to show people and they'll go "Hey, you're pretty smart, want a job?".
That might sound flippant, but demonstrated experience can get you in above the entry level, and taking the trouble to create things for yourself shows enthusiasm and self-teaching skills. It makes a huge difference when dealing with knowledgeable potential employers (less so with faceless HR depts).
Being an introvert isn't necessarily a major problem as long as they can communicate work-related things effectively and aren't irritatingly silent or bluntly obnoxious. It's perfectly possible to be quiet or anti-social yet pleasant to work with.
posted by malevolent at 9:59 AM on April 8, 2008
That might sound flippant, but demonstrated experience can get you in above the entry level, and taking the trouble to create things for yourself shows enthusiasm and self-teaching skills. It makes a huge difference when dealing with knowledgeable potential employers (less so with faceless HR depts).
Being an introvert isn't necessarily a major problem as long as they can communicate work-related things effectively and aren't irritatingly silent or bluntly obnoxious. It's perfectly possible to be quiet or anti-social yet pleasant to work with.
posted by malevolent at 9:59 AM on April 8, 2008
Is your pal introverted in the sense that he's just shy and quiet, or introverted as in socially retarded? If it's the first, well he'll probably be OK - if it's the second, well he's got a long hard road coming ahead - at my company we've given more people the thumbs down for setting off the "difficult to work with/can't be put in front of customers" alarm than for any perceived shortcoming in skills. If it's the second, and he's really a friend, you may want to pull him aside and tell him he shouldn't do blah blah blah as that will scare employers away. Despite all the stories of the super-genius who never went to college and was raised by wolves, but who created an entire an entire bug free OS on his own, most development work is done by fairly normal people.
posted by Calloused_Foot at 10:13 AM on April 8, 2008
posted by Calloused_Foot at 10:13 AM on April 8, 2008
Response by poster: Y'all are being extraordinarily helpful. Thank you!
Introversion- he is pleasant, just reluctant to push himself forward in any way. He gets along fine with everyone.
IT Support- has been suggested, but he's been rejected from at least one position because he had no prior help desk experience.
University/professors- Have been of no help at all.
Networking- is his downfall, because he is very much against the idea of calling up people he doesn't know and asking for help or connections. (This is not to say networking is out of the picture-- I know it's vital to finding jobs. Just that he has problems with it.)
I think seeing these things stated by people who aren't me will make it easier for him to believe them.
posted by cereselle at 10:26 AM on April 8, 2008
Introversion- he is pleasant, just reluctant to push himself forward in any way. He gets along fine with everyone.
IT Support- has been suggested, but he's been rejected from at least one position because he had no prior help desk experience.
University/professors- Have been of no help at all.
Networking- is his downfall, because he is very much against the idea of calling up people he doesn't know and asking for help or connections. (This is not to say networking is out of the picture-- I know it's vital to finding jobs. Just that he has problems with it.)
I think seeing these things stated by people who aren't me will make it easier for him to believe them.
posted by cereselle at 10:26 AM on April 8, 2008
If he wants to do WebDev/DBA work, don't make him do IT support. That's not the right career path at all and the transition is painful.
Networking isn't really required, but being relaxed and being able to demonstrate your competence is. Two approaches are to sell yourself in the interview, OR to have your prior work sell you for you. Very simple: If he doesn't have the skill to sell himself, then his portfolio of work and past achievements need to sell him. If he doesn't have either, he will not get a job that he will enjoy.
posted by SpecialK at 10:54 AM on April 8, 2008
Networking isn't really required, but being relaxed and being able to demonstrate your competence is. Two approaches are to sell yourself in the interview, OR to have your prior work sell you for you. Very simple: If he doesn't have the skill to sell himself, then his portfolio of work and past achievements need to sell him. If he doesn't have either, he will not get a job that he will enjoy.
posted by SpecialK at 10:54 AM on April 8, 2008
(And just to list my specs -- I'm a 28 year old PHP developer / Sysadmin that started out as a Webmaster for a mid-sized company making $12/hr. After building up my PHP chops over a period of three years, I started consulting. I moved to TX to be with a girlfriend, dumped the girlfriend, and got a better job -- I'm a Systems Analyst II at Texas A&M University. The II denotes my 1337 5k11z, you won't find many people working here in their 20's with "II" after their name. I also consult on the side and bring in anywhere between $5k and $20k per year extra by consulting. Most of the consulting work that I get comes from writing in my blog and hanging out on message boards.)
posted by SpecialK at 11:29 AM on April 8, 2008
posted by SpecialK at 11:29 AM on April 8, 2008
Consider joining / starting an open source project as a portfolio piece.
posted by jenkinsEar at 12:42 PM on April 8, 2008
posted by jenkinsEar at 12:42 PM on April 8, 2008
If a hiring manager is looking for three years of experience, that usually does not mean 3+ years of University. It sounds a bit like your friend believes himself to be more qualified than he actually is, and he is not applying to the correct jobs.
With a freshly minted BA in IS, your friend is likely qualified for an entry-level job on the operations or IT side (Jr helpdesk/support, Jr. Sysadmin, Jr. DBA, etc.) These are jobs where he'll practically be an apprentice to a more experienced Ops/IT/DB guy, and it is the right path to a career on this side of the technology fence.
If he wants to be a programmer, then he needs to be writing code, and participating in online communities that are relevant to the sort of code he's writing, and the language(s) he's working in. This sort of "networking" is generally easier for introverts than cold calling people, and frequently does lead to opportunities -- though perhaps not in the immediate timeframe.
Assume that a hiring manager is going to do a couple of searches for your friend's name, and if he comes up as someone who's constantly in the mailing lists, giving lost users useful help, and/or asking interesting questions himself, that's going to help your friend.
And don't mention Microsoft Access in the presence of actual DBAs.
posted by toxic at 1:01 PM on April 8, 2008
With a freshly minted BA in IS, your friend is likely qualified for an entry-level job on the operations or IT side (Jr helpdesk/support, Jr. Sysadmin, Jr. DBA, etc.) These are jobs where he'll practically be an apprentice to a more experienced Ops/IT/DB guy, and it is the right path to a career on this side of the technology fence.
If he wants to be a programmer, then he needs to be writing code, and participating in online communities that are relevant to the sort of code he's writing, and the language(s) he's working in. This sort of "networking" is generally easier for introverts than cold calling people, and frequently does lead to opportunities -- though perhaps not in the immediate timeframe.
Assume that a hiring manager is going to do a couple of searches for your friend's name, and if he comes up as someone who's constantly in the mailing lists, giving lost users useful help, and/or asking interesting questions himself, that's going to help your friend.
And don't mention Microsoft Access in the presence of actual DBAs.
posted by toxic at 1:01 PM on April 8, 2008
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Alternately, he needs to build up a suite of consulting work, get involved with some open source projects, and put all of those on his resume. Even if he's the biggest nerd that's ever walked, if he does good work and can prove it, people will hire him.
My email's in my profile, if he wants some MySQL/PHP experience, I usually have some consulting work or other non-consulting projects that I need help on.
posted by SpecialK at 8:22 AM on April 8, 2008