There's no place like a home for sale
April 7, 2008 9:26 AM Subscribe
What recourse do I have when I'm stuck between 2 realtors? Way more inside
I rented a house last September with a 1 year lease. If I chose to stay after that year, the lease would then go month to month. I had already decided to not renew the lease and to move back to my old town in September 08 when I was told last weekend that the owner had listed the house for sale. He listed the house with a different agent and agency than he uses to manage the house, which has made the property manager angry. The new listing agent pointed out to me that the dates on the lease that both myself and the property mgr signed are incorrect-they state a move in date of May 15, 2006 and a move out date of Sept 1, 2007 and a total rental amount of $2400 due for the length of the lease. The correct dates would have been 9/1/07 to 9/1/08 and the total rental amount would have been $14400. So, the lease is incorrect, however I did sign it without paying attention so I take full responsibility for that.
Now, the house has been listed for sale and I am expected to keep it ready to be shown. I have a 5 year old son and a 17 year old daughter and we are very tidy as usual, but the house will obviously not be "staged" on a moment's notice. I found a new house that I will be leasing and moving June 1st. According to the property mgr, the dates on the lease are meaningless, it's the intent that we have to go by, so my leaving June 1st means that I forfeit my $1200 deposit. I believe that the owner putting the house up for sale means that he broke the lease so I am entitled to my deposit back if the house is in the same or better condition as when I moved in (which it will be).
This morning I was upstairs not dressed when I heard a man's voice in my dining room. My 5 year old son was downstairs, so I ran down in my underwear to see a pest control guy in the house, saying he was here to do a termite inspection. I had not been notified at all about this and he had a key to get into the house. My son did let him in (and yes, there's been discussion and consequences for that) but the man would have let himself in anyway. I called the property mgr and she got hateful with me and told me to call the listing agent, that she had nothing to do with it, she didn't know anything about it and that frankly it wasn't her problem, SHE didn't let the guy in. I explained that I didn't sign a contract with the listing agent, I signed one with her, that I paid my rent to her and she was my point of contact. She told me that any issues with showing that house aren't her problem, that I should contact the listing agent. Frankly, I don't want to deal with the listing agent because she's just as hateful as the property mgr.
Is there any recourse I have on this? When I moved in I paid 1st, last and security deposit, so I won't be asking for anything back since May's rent is already paid and I'm leaving June 1st-but I would like the deposit back. I'd actually like to file some sort of complaint since I feel that the property mgr has been and is highly unprofessional and the listing agent is invading my privacy.
This is in Florida, both the property mgr and the listing agents are licensed realtors.
I rented a house last September with a 1 year lease. If I chose to stay after that year, the lease would then go month to month. I had already decided to not renew the lease and to move back to my old town in September 08 when I was told last weekend that the owner had listed the house for sale. He listed the house with a different agent and agency than he uses to manage the house, which has made the property manager angry. The new listing agent pointed out to me that the dates on the lease that both myself and the property mgr signed are incorrect-they state a move in date of May 15, 2006 and a move out date of Sept 1, 2007 and a total rental amount of $2400 due for the length of the lease. The correct dates would have been 9/1/07 to 9/1/08 and the total rental amount would have been $14400. So, the lease is incorrect, however I did sign it without paying attention so I take full responsibility for that.
Now, the house has been listed for sale and I am expected to keep it ready to be shown. I have a 5 year old son and a 17 year old daughter and we are very tidy as usual, but the house will obviously not be "staged" on a moment's notice. I found a new house that I will be leasing and moving June 1st. According to the property mgr, the dates on the lease are meaningless, it's the intent that we have to go by, so my leaving June 1st means that I forfeit my $1200 deposit. I believe that the owner putting the house up for sale means that he broke the lease so I am entitled to my deposit back if the house is in the same or better condition as when I moved in (which it will be).
This morning I was upstairs not dressed when I heard a man's voice in my dining room. My 5 year old son was downstairs, so I ran down in my underwear to see a pest control guy in the house, saying he was here to do a termite inspection. I had not been notified at all about this and he had a key to get into the house. My son did let him in (and yes, there's been discussion and consequences for that) but the man would have let himself in anyway. I called the property mgr and she got hateful with me and told me to call the listing agent, that she had nothing to do with it, she didn't know anything about it and that frankly it wasn't her problem, SHE didn't let the guy in. I explained that I didn't sign a contract with the listing agent, I signed one with her, that I paid my rent to her and she was my point of contact. She told me that any issues with showing that house aren't her problem, that I should contact the listing agent. Frankly, I don't want to deal with the listing agent because she's just as hateful as the property mgr.
Is there any recourse I have on this? When I moved in I paid 1st, last and security deposit, so I won't be asking for anything back since May's rent is already paid and I'm leaving June 1st-but I would like the deposit back. I'd actually like to file some sort of complaint since I feel that the property mgr has been and is highly unprofessional and the listing agent is invading my privacy.
This is in Florida, both the property mgr and the listing agents are licensed realtors.
IA definitely NAL and I'm a little confused about the contract (did you actually pay a total of $14,400 or a total of $2,400?), but here's what I read when if google "florida rental laws":
Section 83.53(2), F.S.
Once you agree to rent a dwelling, your right to possession is much the same as if you owned it. The landlord however, can enter at reasonable times with proper notice to inspect, make necessary or agreed repairs, decorations, alterations or improvements, supply agreed services or show it to a prospective or actual purchaser, tenant, mortgagee, worker or contractor.
The landlord may also enter at any time when:
*
The tenant has given consent;
*
In an emergency;
* The tenant unreasonably withholds consent; and/or,
*
The tenant is absent from the premises for a period of time equal to one-half the time for periodic rental payments. If the rent is current and the tenant notifies the landlord of an intended absence, then the landlord may enter only with the consent of the tenant or for the protection or preservation of the premises.
As far as I can tell, nothing should change the owner's obligation to inform you some determined period of time in advance that he or anyone else he sends - pest control or potential buyers - is coming to your house. In fact, the period of advance notice should be stated in your contract. And it shouldn't matter if the owner chooses to notify you through the property agent or the listing agent, but it's your house, not his, until you move out, especially if you have paid rent until June 1 and you have the right to be notified of anyone who will be coming there.
At least that's the way its been everywhere I've lived.
posted by RandlePatrickMcMurphy at 10:16 AM on April 7, 2008
Section 83.53(2), F.S.
Once you agree to rent a dwelling, your right to possession is much the same as if you owned it. The landlord however, can enter at reasonable times with proper notice to inspect, make necessary or agreed repairs, decorations, alterations or improvements, supply agreed services or show it to a prospective or actual purchaser, tenant, mortgagee, worker or contractor.
The landlord may also enter at any time when:
*
The tenant has given consent;
*
In an emergency;
* The tenant unreasonably withholds consent; and/or,
*
The tenant is absent from the premises for a period of time equal to one-half the time for periodic rental payments. If the rent is current and the tenant notifies the landlord of an intended absence, then the landlord may enter only with the consent of the tenant or for the protection or preservation of the premises.
As far as I can tell, nothing should change the owner's obligation to inform you some determined period of time in advance that he or anyone else he sends - pest control or potential buyers - is coming to your house. In fact, the period of advance notice should be stated in your contract. And it shouldn't matter if the owner chooses to notify you through the property agent or the listing agent, but it's your house, not his, until you move out, especially if you have paid rent until June 1 and you have the right to be notified of anyone who will be coming there.
At least that's the way its been everywhere I've lived.
posted by RandlePatrickMcMurphy at 10:16 AM on April 7, 2008
Here's what I did in college in a similar situation.
The next time someone comes around looking to buy the place, make sure you're there, and make sure to point out every last possible thing that is wrong with the place.
The two realtors will do whatever it takes to get you to move out of there, as quickly and painlessly as possible.
posted by Oktober at 10:32 AM on April 7, 2008
The next time someone comes around looking to buy the place, make sure you're there, and make sure to point out every last possible thing that is wrong with the place.
The two realtors will do whatever it takes to get you to move out of there, as quickly and painlessly as possible.
posted by Oktober at 10:32 AM on April 7, 2008
Putting the house up for sale doesn't void the lease. You're breaking it by moving out early and the landlord can hold you responsible for the remaining term of the lease. If you can escape by forfeiting just the security deposit, consider yourself lucky. Get it in writing that you will not be held responsible for the remaining lease, otherwise the owner may decide to sue if he can't sell the house as quickly as he'd like.
As for the visits by contractors, etc. Send a letter to the listing agent, property manager and owner highlighting the Florida rental law posted above.
If I were you, I'd ask to mutually void the contract and get your security deposit back. The security deposit is for paying for damaged property, it's not for the owner to take at his discretion for breaking the lease.
posted by electroboy at 10:37 AM on April 7, 2008
As for the visits by contractors, etc. Send a letter to the listing agent, property manager and owner highlighting the Florida rental law posted above.
If I were you, I'd ask to mutually void the contract and get your security deposit back. The security deposit is for paying for damaged property, it's not for the owner to take at his discretion for breaking the lease.
posted by electroboy at 10:37 AM on April 7, 2008
See if you can get help at a legal clinic or the like. It looks like you're getting screwed. You might have some luck in small claims court or mediation.
posted by Happydaz at 10:39 AM on April 7, 2008
posted by Happydaz at 10:39 AM on April 7, 2008
You'd think they'd want to stay on your good side since you're the one who's in charge of having the house look presentable.
If somebody walked into my apartment without permission I would have no problem running downstairs in my underwear, baseball bat in hand, screaming at them to get the fuck out as would be my legal right to do. Good luck selling a house under those circumstances. I mean, they're already trying to yintz you out of your deposit. Why play Ms. Nice Guy? The possibility of mortifying any potential buyer and losing the sale is probably the only thing that could get them to change their ways.
posted by Jess the Mess at 10:47 AM on April 7, 2008
If somebody walked into my apartment without permission I would have no problem running downstairs in my underwear, baseball bat in hand, screaming at them to get the fuck out as would be my legal right to do. Good luck selling a house under those circumstances. I mean, they're already trying to yintz you out of your deposit. Why play Ms. Nice Guy? The possibility of mortifying any potential buyer and losing the sale is probably the only thing that could get them to change their ways.
posted by Jess the Mess at 10:47 AM on April 7, 2008
i would start by changing the locks on the doors. it sounds like the listing agent isn't going to play by the rules. give the key to the property agent, butnot the listing agent.
when the termite guy showed up unannounced, the property owner has violated the lease. doesn't matter who sent them there. the fact that someone is giving strangers your house key is a pretty serious violation of your rights.
i'd also stop paying rent, at least until this crap is sorted out. don't spend it, as you'll probably have to pay it later, but since everyone else is having a pissing match you can piss too.
posted by lester at 11:00 AM on April 7, 2008
when the termite guy showed up unannounced, the property owner has violated the lease. doesn't matter who sent them there. the fact that someone is giving strangers your house key is a pretty serious violation of your rights.
i'd also stop paying rent, at least until this crap is sorted out. don't spend it, as you'll probably have to pay it later, but since everyone else is having a pissing match you can piss too.
posted by lester at 11:00 AM on April 7, 2008
Changing the locks is probably a bad idea but you might want to look into some non-permanent way of blocking the door from being opened by just anybody who happens to have been given the key.
You really should talk to a lawyer in your area about whether the lease is even valid given the circumstances, you can't break a lease that wasn't valid in the first place.
posted by missmagenta at 11:08 AM on April 7, 2008 [1 favorite]
You really should talk to a lawyer in your area about whether the lease is even valid given the circumstances, you can't break a lease that wasn't valid in the first place.
posted by missmagenta at 11:08 AM on April 7, 2008 [1 favorite]
Don't stop paying rent as some sort of protest! It will negatively affect your credit, and you could end up in court.
The sale of the house does not negate the lease. In fact, investors usually try to sell properties with long term leases in place because this makes them more attractive to the new owners (instant income, no immediate hassle to find a renter).
I think that you may be stuck forfeiting your deposit. However, I would try to negotiate mutual termination of the lease w/ the return of your deposit.
posted by Ostara at 11:24 AM on April 7, 2008
The sale of the house does not negate the lease. In fact, investors usually try to sell properties with long term leases in place because this makes them more attractive to the new owners (instant income, no immediate hassle to find a renter).
I think that you may be stuck forfeiting your deposit. However, I would try to negotiate mutual termination of the lease w/ the return of your deposit.
posted by Ostara at 11:24 AM on April 7, 2008
(IAALandlord) Don't change the locks; do consider installing a security chain. As electricboy said, the lease is valid until Sept. regardless of sale of the property. You are entitled to reasonable notice of entry. You might be able to prohibit showing the property, as it is not for maintenance.
Look in the phone book under legal aid. There's always a group that covers tenants rights. Call them, and also call the state attorney general. The errors in the lease? If you signed a document that says "I'll pay 1150/month, for 1 year, signed Sept 1 2007" but the details elsewhere are in disagreement, you could be in trouble. You need help on this part if the owner tries to push you around.
It is to the owner's advantage to be nice to you, as you can screw up the sale. Find out what your rights actually are. The owner wants rent until the moment the sale is complete; the owner's might be out of luck. You have a place to move into in June? then give notice May 1, don't pay May's rent.
posted by theora55 at 11:26 AM on April 7, 2008
Look in the phone book under legal aid. There's always a group that covers tenants rights. Call them, and also call the state attorney general. The errors in the lease? If you signed a document that says "I'll pay 1150/month, for 1 year, signed Sept 1 2007" but the details elsewhere are in disagreement, you could be in trouble. You need help on this part if the owner tries to push you around.
It is to the owner's advantage to be nice to you, as you can screw up the sale. Find out what your rights actually are. The owner wants rent until the moment the sale is complete; the owner's might be out of luck. You have a place to move into in June? then give notice May 1, don't pay May's rent.
posted by theora55 at 11:26 AM on April 7, 2008
Response by poster: Thanks for everyone's insight. Thus far I have paid $9600 in rent ($1200 a month) with $3600 up front before we moved in. The property manager and the leasing agent both have keys to the house. I don't plan on paying rent May 1st since that technically will be my last month and I've paid the last month's rent when I moved in. I gave written notice that I would be vacating June 1st on March 31st, so it was more than 60 days notice.
electroboy- the dates on the lease that I have, the owner has and the listing agent has all have incorrect dates. According to the lease, I am now month to month since the lease was for 5/15/06 to 9/1/07. The owner, listing agent and the property mgr's assistant all assumed I was moving out in May, it wasn't until I opened my mouth and told them that I thought I was here until September that anyone realized the dates being wrong. If I lose $1200, trust me, it would almost be worth it to be out of this mess.
posted by hollygoheavy at 11:29 AM on April 7, 2008
electroboy- the dates on the lease that I have, the owner has and the listing agent has all have incorrect dates. According to the lease, I am now month to month since the lease was for 5/15/06 to 9/1/07. The owner, listing agent and the property mgr's assistant all assumed I was moving out in May, it wasn't until I opened my mouth and told them that I thought I was here until September that anyone realized the dates being wrong. If I lose $1200, trust me, it would almost be worth it to be out of this mess.
posted by hollygoheavy at 11:29 AM on April 7, 2008
Response by poster: Oh, in addition, I was told that if the house was sold I would be given 30 days notice to vacate-this town isn't a big rental town, and this house would most likely be sold to homeowners who want to actually live in it (it's a restored historic home) and the owner is asking a ridiculously low amount just to unload it. I was actually willing to swallow hard and stay till September until both realtors started acting like asses.
posted by hollygoheavy at 11:33 AM on April 7, 2008
posted by hollygoheavy at 11:33 AM on April 7, 2008
lester writes "i would start by changing the locks on the doors. it sounds like the listing agent isn't going to play by the rules. give the key to the property agent, butnot the listing agent."
Every lease I signed allowed me to change the locks as long as I gave my landlord a copy. The fact that someone unknown to you could have just wandered in without notice if defacto proof that your lock is no longer secure. Changing the keys and giving a copy to rental agent is what I'd do immediately.
Also you can usually legally refuse entry if proper notice isn't given and entry isn't sought for emergency purposes. I've been on the buyers side of this on a couple occasions and it is a real pain in the ass to have to wait for written notice to be served before viewing a property. Check if you can demand such in your lease.
posted by Mitheral at 11:39 AM on April 7, 2008
Every lease I signed allowed me to change the locks as long as I gave my landlord a copy. The fact that someone unknown to you could have just wandered in without notice if defacto proof that your lock is no longer secure. Changing the keys and giving a copy to rental agent is what I'd do immediately.
Also you can usually legally refuse entry if proper notice isn't given and entry isn't sought for emergency purposes. I've been on the buyers side of this on a couple occasions and it is a real pain in the ass to have to wait for written notice to be served before viewing a property. Check if you can demand such in your lease.
posted by Mitheral at 11:39 AM on April 7, 2008
Since you have a signed lease which indicates that you are now month-to-month, go ahead and move out May 31, NOT June 1, because that gets you into another month. If needed, send another letter by April 30 to indicate the proper move-out date.
If they refuse to return your deposit, take them to small-claims court. You have a signed lease that gives you the right to move out on 30 days' notice and you've supplied that notice, so the only reason they can keep it is to repair damages. Take photos of the house before you move out to document the condition you left it in. If you have left damage, own up to it.
posted by cabingirl at 12:05 PM on April 7, 2008
If they refuse to return your deposit, take them to small-claims court. You have a signed lease that gives you the right to move out on 30 days' notice and you've supplied that notice, so the only reason they can keep it is to repair damages. Take photos of the house before you move out to document the condition you left it in. If you have left damage, own up to it.
posted by cabingirl at 12:05 PM on April 7, 2008
The property manager is correct about the lease. It's the intent, not the exact wording since it's an obvious error. Although it's tempting, you don't just get to choose the most favorable interpretation and run with it.
Really, your best bet is to have a real estate attorney write a letter noting the error and requesting to end the lease by mutual consent. If the landlord decides to ding your credit or just sue you for nonpayment of those last few months, it'll turn into a huge pain in the ass and cost quite a bit of money to correct. The cost of your attorney will be less than what you'll lose with the security deposit.
posted by electroboy at 12:21 PM on April 7, 2008
Really, your best bet is to have a real estate attorney write a letter noting the error and requesting to end the lease by mutual consent. If the landlord decides to ding your credit or just sue you for nonpayment of those last few months, it'll turn into a huge pain in the ass and cost quite a bit of money to correct. The cost of your attorney will be less than what you'll lose with the security deposit.
posted by electroboy at 12:21 PM on April 7, 2008
Seconding the recommendation to install security locks on any door that can be opened with the compromised key. I would be very uneasy, as a single woman with a teenaged daughter, living in a house that any random exterminator or painter or whomever the landlord and his unpleasant agent chooses thinks that they can walk right into. You have to wonder what in hell they were thinking.
posted by Dreama at 5:23 PM on April 7, 2008
posted by Dreama at 5:23 PM on April 7, 2008
Real estate brokers are licensed by their state, and usually also belong to a professional association. Call your state attorney general's office to find out where to file a complaint against the agents for unprofessional conduct. Then call back the brokers and tell them they've got 1 day to make things right before you file a written complaint with _____ and the Better Business Bureau. It's a very competitive market right now for real estate agents, and every client is precious. A smart broker will immediately recognize that it's best to resolve this amicably now, rather than risk having to explain it away to prospective clients.
Send a short note to the landlord (cc'd to the agents, but ultimately the responsibility lies with the owner, not the owners' reps): as required by law, non-emergencyt require reasonable advance notice. Point out that you haven't waived that right, and that anyone entering your home without your knowledge and consent is by definition a tresspasser. To protect your family's safety and the landlord's property, you will of course therefore be calling the police on any other tresspassers. Seeing as how one tresspasser already has a key to your home, you will also be changing the locks today and deducting the costs from the next rent payment.
And do call the legal aid or local tenant's rights group. This behavior is so not okay. It's one of the textbook methods of getting an undesired tenant to leave at their own (undue) expense. The selling agent's hints that you have 'cause' to move out early should be your clue that she perceives a benefit in having you go right away. Your willingness to give up your deserved deposit just to escape nastiness and disruption is understandable, but totally misguided. If anything, they've tipped their hand: they've got vested interest in giving you an appropriate incentive to take an quick, quiet exit ('appropriate' for instance = guaranteeing an excellent reference + return of 100% of your deposit unless there is blatant, documented damage that cannot be considered normal wear and tear). It's fair to you both, and extremely reasonable of you to accept as little as that. Frankly, given the real risks of equity draining away if a sale had to be postponed until September, a more generous incentive would be expected (e.g. a flat bonus of $100 or so for each day they want the house in 'staged' condition. Because while you have an obligation to let it be shown when proper notice is given, making it a showplace is never required. Ahem.).
So don't feel bad about arranging to get back your deposit. Giving up that money for no reason except indulging assholish behavior -- that's what should be off the table.
posted by nakedcodemonkey at 8:26 PM on April 7, 2008
Send a short note to the landlord (cc'd to the agents, but ultimately the responsibility lies with the owner, not the owners' reps): as required by law, non-emergencyt require reasonable advance notice. Point out that you haven't waived that right, and that anyone entering your home without your knowledge and consent is by definition a tresspasser. To protect your family's safety and the landlord's property, you will of course therefore be calling the police on any other tresspassers. Seeing as how one tresspasser already has a key to your home, you will also be changing the locks today and deducting the costs from the next rent payment.
And do call the legal aid or local tenant's rights group. This behavior is so not okay. It's one of the textbook methods of getting an undesired tenant to leave at their own (undue) expense. The selling agent's hints that you have 'cause' to move out early should be your clue that she perceives a benefit in having you go right away. Your willingness to give up your deserved deposit just to escape nastiness and disruption is understandable, but totally misguided. If anything, they've tipped their hand: they've got vested interest in giving you an appropriate incentive to take an quick, quiet exit ('appropriate' for instance = guaranteeing an excellent reference + return of 100% of your deposit unless there is blatant, documented damage that cannot be considered normal wear and tear). It's fair to you both, and extremely reasonable of you to accept as little as that. Frankly, given the real risks of equity draining away if a sale had to be postponed until September, a more generous incentive would be expected (e.g. a flat bonus of $100 or so for each day they want the house in 'staged' condition. Because while you have an obligation to let it be shown when proper notice is given, making it a showplace is never required. Ahem.).
So don't feel bad about arranging to get back your deposit. Giving up that money for no reason except indulging assholish behavior -- that's what should be off the table.
posted by nakedcodemonkey at 8:26 PM on April 7, 2008
This thread is closed to new comments.
Wrong! Unless I'm missing something, it sounds like the property manager is trying to bullshit you into not expecting your deposit returned. The wording on the lease is all that matters, which is why you must read it carefully.
There should also be wording in the lease about when and how vendors may enter the home. It should detail how you are to be notified and how much notice is given.
But it sounds like you will be caught in the middle of a nice little pissing match among realtors until you move out. Probably not a lot you can do about that.
posted by curlyelk at 10:01 AM on April 7, 2008