Hot for teacher

April 6, 2008 9:59 PM

I'm attracted to one of my university instructors (and we're approximately the same age, in case it matters). Is there an appropriate way to ask her out?

Here are some details: I'm an older student, having returned to school to finish my degree. She's a teaching assistant. We're both in our late-20s to early-30s. We've had long, friendly conversations during her office hours, but mostly about academic topics with the occasional digression. She has spoken highly of my work, and always laughs at my jokes (or pretends to, anyway).

The problem is that the student-teacher relationship makes me feel a bit inhibited; I don't banter nearly as much as I otherwise would, let alone flirt. I'm afraid to be more overt about my interest, because I don't want to put her in an awkward position. (I don't believe she has sent any signals to me, though I'm sort of oblivious to begin with -- and the extra inhibition here doesn't help.)

So, is there an appropriate way for me to express my interest? Or am I making too big a deal out of this? Thanks in advance.

posted by anonymous to human relations (31 comments total)

Most (if not all) universities have policies banning teacher-student relationships, although i'm not sure if it extends to teaching assistants. This is mainly to discourage any sort of favouring.
posted by Planet F at 10:06 PM on April 6

Look up your university's policy on sexual and romantic contact between teachers and students for the authoritative answer for your school, but here's the answer at every school I've taught at:

You cannot date while you're in her class, period. No.

You probably can date once you're out of her class, provided that you will not need her to write letters of recommendation for you, and you won't be her student in another class.
posted by LobsterMitten at 10:06 PM on April 6 [2 favorites]

And either way, I would keep things strictly friendly, no mentioning your romantic interest, until she has turned in the grades for the course. Whether she's interested or not, you'll put her in a very awkward spot by making your interest explicit before then.
posted by LobsterMitten at 10:09 PM on April 6

The appropriate way to ask her out is to wait until you're out of the class.
posted by HotPatatta at 10:10 PM on April 6 [4 favorites]

Yeah, it's frowned upon. Yeah, it's been done. A friend of a friend recently married her former TA, who she started dating during the class.

Best option is to wait for the end of the course, otherwise be discreet about it.
posted by Krrrlson at 10:13 PM on April 6

Seconding everyone else. When I was a TA, the only thing that's really drilled into our heads in the brief instruction we were given was to not sleep with a student. When she's turned in her grades, send her an email/pop by her office and ask her out. Don't worry about it before then, because any other course of action for her would be quite unprofessional. You're right to feel inhibited, because you really are. Fortunately, you also know when that inhibition lifts.
posted by Schismatic at 10:18 PM on April 6

The appropriate way to ask her out is to wait until you're out of the class.

Exactly.
posted by LarryC at 10:18 PM on April 6 [1 favorite]

The appropriate way to ask her out is to wait until you're out of the class.

Agreed. BTW, sex with students is the only thing that makes the low-paid life of an overworked TA bearable.
posted by KokuRyu at 10:23 PM on April 6 [3 favorites]

So, is there an appropriate way for me to express my interest?

Definitely not while you're in the class. It is not just a matter of favoritism, but there are serious title IX issues that have the potential to arise, and if her graduate training is any good, she knows to be extremely careful about this. But, it is not uncommon for something to happen after the class is over & grades are in.

We've had long, friendly conversations during her office hours, but mostly about academic topics with the occasional digression. She has spoken highly of my work, and always laughs at my jokes (or pretends to, anyway).

You should not take this as discouragement, but one thing to keep in mind is that office hours (esp. TA's office hours) are often extremely under-attended, and a significant portion of the people who do tend to go regularly are not the best students. It can be a real pleasure for there to be a student who is engaged in the class enough to actually go to the office hours and try to get something out of them. Even many good students who have a good relationship with their TA don't think of going to office hours for some reason. So these things aren't necessarily an indicator of personal interest. They also are the kind of thing that might well go hand in hand with personal interest.
posted by advil at 10:25 PM on April 6

Clearly, it's not wise to ask her out while you're her student, because of policies.
If you want to ask her out after the course, my suggestion is to create some subtle sexual tension before the class ends.
From what you've described, you have a completely platonic relationship which exists out of necessity. If you ask her out after class is done without having created even some mild form of sexual tension, she will likely see a possible date as platonic or murky. You need to put sex on the map subtely to be able to check for some signs of actual sexual interest in you. Otherwise, there is a high chance she will be wierded out when you ask her out after class and will not treat the date as a romantic one.
If she has any actual interest in you, sexual tension would be relatively easy to create because of the current barrier of the student-teacher relationship. Make a joke about it (subtelty and imagination is key here), so the image of a sexual relationship with you will linger in her head. Again, if she's interested, creating a romantic relationship will be much easier once class is done.
posted by Count at 10:41 PM on April 6

Ha, it sounds like Count has been a TA.

I'll second that you should wait until you're out of her class before laying it on too thick. But at that point, don't let the former teacher/student relationship stop you. At one point, I counted something like 7 of 12 profs in my department were married to former students. It's definitely done.
posted by salvia at 11:10 PM on April 6

If she's interested, she'll still be interested when you email her the day after her grades are turned in and say "I didn't want to make things awkward during the class, but now that it's over, I'd love to buy you a cup of coffee sometime. Would you be free Friday at 3?".

She probably is already aware of the possible interest. If you try to drop explicit hints, the chances are very good that it will create awkwardness during the semester. (Of course if you are Dr Smooth of the Smooth Institute then by all means, fire away. But if you are a little uncertain of the social niceties --as it sounds like you might be from your question-- it's more likely you will be unsmooth.) If she's scrupulous about the appearance of impropriety with her students, or if she's on the fence about whether she's interested, or if she's not interested, you will make a previously nice situation awkward, and she will probably try to stop meeting with you during office hours.

Enjoy your nice office hour chats, impress her with your smarts and sense of humor, and wait until the class is over for the romantic stuff.
posted by LobsterMitten at 11:23 PM on April 6 [2 favorites]

I agree with lobstermitten, explicit statements can easily make things seriously awkward during the school year. However, if you don't make SOME sort of hint, unless she is nuts about you and hiding every trace of it because of the teacher-student relationship, you will stay in platonic-student zone after the year is done. The hint should not be about necessarily showing your sexual interest, but mainly to make you exist as a sexual being to her. If that does not happen, it is very likely that your dates afterward will have the lingering image of you as the student/friend, not as a possible romantic interest.
It's a fine line between being a ham and being slick, but at this point, it sounds like she's gonna find out that friendly student actually had a secret crush. Your suddenly unveiled sexuality at the end of the year will likely to come off as desparate
Be patient and don't ham it up, but remember: The longer you stay in murky territory, the harder it will be to get out of it.
posted by Count at 11:53 PM on April 6

Just wait til the class is done.
You probably need to make the first move, as she is probably nervous about it too.

Honestly, this happens ALL OF THE TIME.

At my university, one of these TA-student relationships got pretty serious and the major effect was that it became a bit uncomfortable for us other TAs to grade this student's papers and tests, because we then knew him socially. But, he was really respectful, worked really hard, and turned in good work. This made it a bit more comfortable for me, at least, to give him good grades.

Also, be aware, that if you ask her out and she turns you down, the other TAs in the department are likely to know about it.
posted by k8t at 12:05 AM on April 7

Yea, but as a TA, if one of the students I see made a comment bringing up 'the image of a sexual relationship' with me, if I wasn't already interested in him I would be totally weirded out and would either
a) continue helping him with class issues while feeling inhibited around him (because he must have thought I was interested so I should be less friendly so ...) and be annoyed that he'd made that my problem
or b) try and make him see another tutor for the remainder of the course.
Basically, I guess I'm trying to say that if you're going to have to keep seeing her for help, maybe don't bring it up.
posted by jacalata at 12:08 AM on April 7

Changing tutors would work just fine if it's a possibility. Find that out by some other means, it shouldn't be at all difficult. Course website, timetable, etc. Ask admin how one goes about changing tutors. If there's some form involved, download it and fill it out, if there's no form as such write up a declaration to the effect that "For personal reasons as discussed with Ms ... I would like to change tutors. Signed: ... (you). Date: ... I endorse this request. Signed ... (her). Date: ..." which should satisfy administration.

Then go see her at the usual time, have your usual chat, and see how you get along. Do you know anything about her personal life at all? Can you bring it up in some non-clumsy way? (How do you get to uni, who's that (in the photo), what's a good restaurant around here, I hope marking all these papers doesn't take up all your social life, I saw that new academically relevant movie last week, have you seen it, what'd you think, what'd your friends think ... not all of these obviously, just try to find some way of establishing clearly that she's romantically available.) If she is, say to her "I'm thinking maybe I should change tutors. I don't know if I can maintain a properly distant and formal student/tutor relationship with you. What do you think?"

If she gives you a positive signal, pass the form over and point to where she should sign, and as she does, say "Let's continue this over coffee. What time do you finish work today?"

Now if at this point she clearly indicates unavailability, you're still out of her teaching class, which resolves the post-rejection awkwardness issue. You can definitely ask if you can be friends. Since it seems a lot of your attraction as you describe it, is based at least as much on mental as physical matters, it seems a shame to lose that.

Good luck!
posted by aeschenkarnos at 12:36 AM on April 7

sexual tension would be relatively easy to create because of the current barrier of the student-teacher relationship. Make a joke about it (subtelty and imagination is key here), so the image of a sexual relationship with you will linger in her head.

Uh, this sounds like a recipe for discomfort to me. When I was a TA, the other TA's and I would joke about the students with painfully-obvious crushes on their TA's (or worse, on the professor). Lots of the TA's did fish in the classroom waters, as it were, but they were very, very careful to keep it all on the down-low. Even if there isn't a policy against it, being public about it is considered poor form.

Also, although professor/student and TA/student relationships are really common, it is almost always male professor/TA with female student (or sometimes gay male prof/TA with younger student). The female TA's often have a real battle for authority and respect in the classroom, and can be reluctant to jeopardize that by having a relationship with a current student. A male TA doing the same thing is not risking his classroom authority, just because of how gender politics in the classroom tend to play out. Even in places where student/teacher relationships are tolerated, the unofficial rules can be different for men and women, unfair though that is.

So when considering how to make your move on her, be sensitive to this issue, and don't do anything that will place her in an uncomfortable situation in the course or in her department. If there is sexual tension in the air, she will be feeling it, too. Don't make anything explicit until after the course, and after you are sure you will never need a letter of reference from her or will be her student in the future.

The longer you stay in murky territory, the harder it will be to get out of it.

This is usually really good advice. But in this case, the asker is in a really clear situation, not murky at all. The expected boundaries of the student/teacher relationship are very formalized and clear -- any sexual tension can be allowed to remain implicit during the semester; an email or phone call after grades are submitted saying "how about a date?" rewrites those boundaries and you can then negotiate how to move forward. Murkiness or getting stuck "in the friend zone" are not problems in this situation.
posted by Forktine at 12:37 AM on April 7

Do you know anything about her personal life at all? Can you bring it up in some non-clumsy way? (How do you get to uni, who's that (in the photo), what's a good restaurant around here, I hope marking all these papers doesn't take up all your social life, I saw that new academically relevant movie last week, have you seen it, what'd you think, what'd your friends think ... not all of these obviously, just try to find some way of establishing clearly that she's romantically available.)

My experience may not be representative, I don't know. But because the usual student/teacher relationships are so clear (they are my students, not my friends, not my poker buddies, not the people I talk to about my problems and worries and hopes), that every time a student does this it is painfully obvious and comes off as not very slick. My fellow TA's, and professors I know, all have similar stories -- it goes with the territory, and is a normal part of university life.

That does not mean that you shouldn't make your move -- go for it, but just don't try to be smooth and elliptical about it. After the semester, ask her on a date -- and make it clear that you are asking her on a date, rather than to talk about school stuff over coffee.
posted by Forktine at 12:47 AM on April 7

Yes, the "change of class allocation" form is your "move", if you want to see it as such. It shows you really do mean it, and sidesteps the authority issue Forktine refers to. You'll have to work a bit harder to overcome the setback from the TA change, of course, but to do that, you'll either have (a) free time; or (b) her help.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 12:53 AM on April 7

Wait until you graduate.

Failing that, wait until the end of the semester---or whenever you are sure you won't have her as a TA any more.

Sure, there are professors who marry their students, but it's not cool when the relationship starts before graduation. It's not so bad with TAs, but still...
posted by leahwrenn at 3:55 AM on April 7

The other thing that happens all the time in TA-student relationships is that "long, friendly conversations" that are "mostly about academic topics with the occasional digression" are taken to mean something more than they are by the student. TAs are generally really, really happy to speak at great length about academic stuff that relates to their field to anyone or anything that shows even the slightest interest in listening. (I type this with love, affection, and as a TA.)

There's nothing in the original post to suggest that the TA is interested in the OP. I suggest waiting til the class is completely over (that means after the final date for handing in marks has passed), then getting in touch with the polite coffee offer, and *then* re-evaluating the situation.
posted by Hellgirl at 3:58 AM on April 7

There may be different rules for TA's (as opposed to full time faculty).. but one thing you definitely want to consider is the eventual outcome of the relationship. What I mean by that is hypothetically lets assume you ARE successful in asking her out and dating, eventually people ARE going to find out. (no matter how "down low" you try to keep it.) Assuming this person is a TA for a reason (they want to eventually be a teacher).... my gut instinct tells me they aren't going to risk that to have a relationship with you (or anyone).

I could be wrong (after all, I have seen numerous student-teacher relationships), but I've also seen witch hunts and teachers careers ruined when relationships with students caused administration to question the teachers credibility. I'm not trying to discourage you, I'm just saying, make sure you think it ALL the way through and carefully consider the possible outcomes.
posted by jmnugent at 4:59 AM on April 7

I nth the comment about "Wait till you are in a situation where she no longer has any power over you -- power to grade, power to write recommendations, etc." This means that, if you're in her department, when you graduate. If you're just taking a class in the department, when the class is over -- and never ask her to write a letter of recommendation for you. At least in part because of rules, at least in part because she will never be sure whether your attentions are pure or there's strings attached -- as in "He's/she's just schmoozing me to get better grades/get a good recommendation" as long as she's in a position to "judge" you.

Also, the teacher/student relationship does promote crushes, but just as often they fade on the student's part once they're out of the class. I have had students exhibit obvious crush behavior on me in class, despite the fact that I am 40ish, overweight, as far from dominant culture pretty as you can imagine (unless you have the hots for, say, Kathy Bates) and married. Professors (and TAs, if they're good at what they do) have a charisma in the classroom that they don't have in the grocery store or even on a date, because they're doing what they love. So you might want to wait for yourself as well as for her till you're out of the class to see if it's her, or her teaching charisma, that you're crushing on.
posted by lleachie at 6:39 AM on April 7

At the minimum you must wait till the course is completely over and final grades are turned in. I have seen some pretty dodgy relationships between TAs/students and professor/students so you need to be aware that:

1) you would be placing the TA in a very awkward position, socially and professionally, if you asked her out while she has influence over your grades or classroom experience;

2) other students may interpret a relationship between their TA and a fellow student as unfair, true or not as the case may be

I agree with the majority of opinions above on waiting and using caution. One of the pleasures of being an "older" student is having better discipline and patience then a wet behind the ear 17-18 year old.

I personally, have looked down at graduate students who poached in the undergrad population, with emphasis on those they currently taught. It seemed pretty skeevy and indicated that maybe they did not possess good judgment and patience.
posted by jadepearl at 6:52 AM on April 7

do not ask her out until you are no longer a student at that university or she is no longer a teacher there.
posted by misanthropicsarah at 6:52 AM on April 7

So, to add a note to the resounding chorus: I am a TA. Wait until grades are turned in, at they very least. Don't try and create sexual tension. If you're given any kind of encouragement from her after the course is over, fine; create some sexual tension. But until then, leave it alone.
posted by HighTechUnderpants at 10:47 AM on April 7

You will put her in a very awkward position if you ask her out. If she wants to say yes, she won't be able to because it would get her fired if someone found out, and there goes her future academic career. If she wants to say no, then she has to worry that you think she only said no because she's not allowed to, and that you'll be back when the course is over.

Basically, if you really like her, you'll wait, because all you'll do is make it awkward for her to teach you for the rest of the year. Keep being friendly. Ask her out when you're no longer in her class.
posted by Dasein at 10:52 AM on April 7

say "maybe I should change tutors. I don't know if I can maintain a properly distant and formal student/tutor relationship with you. What do you think?"
If she gives you a positive signal, pass the form over and point to where she should sign, and as she does, say "Let's continue this over coffee. What time do you finish work today?"

Don't do this. If she's not interested it will be awkward as hell AND you guarantee that you will be the laughingstock of that department, grad student and faculty alike, for years to come. Seriously. If she's interested it will be awkward and you will be coming on too strong.

If you want to change sections you probably can, just by speaking to the instructor for the course, and you don't need a melodramatic line about how you're not sure you can control yourself because of the obvious fireworks in the air or something. Either way you should not ask her out until the grades are handed in.

(I should say, all of my advice is from an American university perspective - different standards may prevail elsewhere.)
posted by LobsterMitten at 4:48 PM on April 7

I will second LobsterMitten and everyone else saying "play it cool until the end of the semester." I will also recommend you ignore everyone who is like "omg, no not until you graduate." Most people in higher education are mature enough to realize that you find love where you find it, and if it's with someone who took your class last semester, so be it. A lot of grad students or young professors live and breath within their academic department, so it's kind of inevitable. None or close to none of her colleagues will even remember she was your TA unless she tells them (particularly if it is a big class). And people will not stop respecting her. Above I mentioned that, like, 7 of 12 profs in my department were married to former students. What I didn't say was that several of these former students then proceeded to get jobs or professorships in the same department their husband or wife worked in. "OMG, scandal," right? No. They either got respected, or not, based on the quality of their own work. I was there for five years and didn't hear any whispers of nepotism. (And for good reason: a few of these couples were equally matched in academic firepower.) Also, when a friend interviewed to be a prof, they subtly hinted they might be able to find his wife a job in the university if that made it easier for him to move across the country. Someone then told us that in fact, if you're married to an academic, schools basically assume they'll have to get both of you jobs (I'm not sure this is always true, but it's what someone told us). So, compared to all this willingness within academia to accomoddate love, going on a few dates with a former TA is really nothing. And if you fall in love and get married, hey, you've always wanted to work at a university, right? :)
posted by salvia at 7:24 PM on April 7

However they do not "accomoddate" bad spelling.
posted by salvia at 7:29 PM on April 7

Can't be said enough: Wait until the grades are turned in. Forget the power she has over your grade and hypothetical references, you could destroy her career.
posted by Eothele at 11:02 AM on April 9