Comments on: Sorry, I had to toss my cookies. Yours too.

Question: Sorry, I had to toss my cookies. Yours too.

thetenthstory — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 08:06:42 -0800

How do you define a cookie? (The edible kind)

I am part of a contest to see who can make the best cookie. However, there is a gray area of what, exactly, constitutes a cookie. Help me find (or create) a cookie definition whereas it cannot be argued that something is.

The dictionary calls it: a small cake made from stiff, sweet dough rolled and sliced or dropped by spoonfuls on a large, flat pan (cookie sheet) and baked.

This, by my logic, means it would have to meet three criteria:

1. sweet dough
2. rolled and sliced or dropped by spoonfuls
3. baked on a flat pan

I feel this could exclude items that may actually be considered a cookie (no-bake cookies), and isn't sufficient enough to exclude some items ("bar" cookies, pastries, and candies). Lemon bars, S'mores, Rice Krispie treats, and rum balls would not be considered cookies.

How would you define a "cookie"?

By: iconomy

iconomy — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 08:15:25 -0800

2. rolled and sliced, dropped by spoonfuls, extruded through a cookie press, rolled and cut with cookie cutters, rolled and molded by hand....I think there are a lot more ways to get the sweet dough onto the flat pan.

By: rmless

rmless — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 08:18:46 -0800

Saying they should be baked in individual portions could exclude the bars.

By: amtho

amtho — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 08:19:20 -0800

This definition also excludes "cookie shooter" cookies, the kind extruded through a (large) pastry-type tip. Also pressed cookies - pressed into a mold.

Also, why would you want to exclude "bar" cookies? If you exclude those, should you exclude the giant multi-serving "cookies" (pie-sized)?

My own definition: a sweet "biscuit" (using the British definition of biscuit). I'd define it by the way it's eaten rather than the way it's prepared - held in the hand rather than eaten by fork, mostly carbohydrates, flat disc-shaped, bite-sized, meant to be eaten in one to several bites, generally eaten alone (sometimes frosted).

If the contest doesn't have their own definition, I say push all the boundaries you want. Ask them for a definition first, though, and save it -- preferably in writing.

By: weapons-grade pandemonium

weapons-grade pandemonium — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 08:21:51 -0800

This could be tricky, because a Rice Krispie treat in another shape might be considered a cookie. I might be better to leave it open, and evaluate the cookies based on several criteria, e.g., taste, originality, aesthetics, etc., including how close it comes to the judges' concept of "cookie". That way a cookie that doesn't meet your criteria is not excluded; it simply doesn't win.

By: Leon

Leon — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 08:30:56 -0800

"biscuits go soft when stale, whereas cakes go hard when stale"

That's from a British court judgement. I think the British usage of "biscuit" is not going to be a million miles away from the American usage of "cookie". Even if US-cookie is a superset of UK-biscuit, it's still a useful partial definition, I think.

By: Jody Tresidder

Jody Tresidder — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 08:50:02 -0800

Leon,
You just beat me to it! That was, I think, the charming "Jaffa Cake - biscuit or cake?" case, wasn't it? Something to do with value-added-tax!

By: suckerpunch

suckerpunch — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 08:50:46 -0800

Can we drop the 'sweet' requirement from the definition? I have some delicious and savory bacon and blue cheese cookies that would be happy if we did.

By: burnmp3s

burnmp3s — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 08:54:18 -0800

I am part of a contest to see who can make the best cookie. However, there is a gray area of what, exactly, constitutes a cookie.

Although finding the perfect definition for a cookie is an interesting challenge, the best way to get rid of this gray area is probably to just explain it like you explained it to us (with examples). If you just have your perfect cookie definition, people might not read it carefully enough or misinterpret it and break the rules.

The best thing to do would be to have a basic definition, an "allowed" list and a "not allowed" list. Put in a warning that people should not try to bend the rules and that if they need any clarifications they should contact you. If anybody shows up who didn't follow the rules, just factor that into the judging.

By: watercarrier

watercarrier — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 08:58:57 -0800

Cookie: pre-crumbled baked rotund thing, sweet, flavored, colored and fragrant, devoured by monsters and humans alike.

By: TryTheTilapia

TryTheTilapia — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 09:40:32 -0800

Butter delivery system.

By: scruss

scruss — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 09:57:44 -0800

Where I'm from (Glasgow), a cookie is not-always-sweet bunlike object, not a million km away from a (US) biscuit. A biscuit is, of course, a (US) cookie, except we actually bake 'em the whole way through - unlike the soggy American travesties.

By: zpousman

zpousman — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:57:03 -0800

There's no fixed definition of a cookie. Use a different theory than big-list-of-necessary-and-sufficient-conditions. Instead think about the cookies in terms of "prototype theory" Obviously, one puts the chocolate chip cookie in the middle and goes outward from there.

By: thetenthstory

thetenthstory — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 11:17:59 -0800

sukerpunch: I think dropping sweet from the definition can be fine. Especially since bacon makes everything better.

zpousman: how can I "carve out" from your prototype theory what I need? Your author uses the definition/category of furniture, which could be any stationary object in the house. If what I am using is a dessert (which will serve as the house), can I be specific to the cookie (which will serve as a room in the house which should really only be containing [blank] type of furniture)?

Bar cookies are deemed unfit for this type of competition.

By: thetenthstory

thetenthstory — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 11:19:54 -0800

- and multi serving cookies are okay. That is actaully a fantastic idea amtho.

By: sophist

sophist — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 11:22:30 -0800

What zpousman said. Humans generally do not use necessary and sufficient conditions when organizing categories in the real world. See also Radial Categories, Family Resemblance, exemplars.

By: mkultra

mkultra — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 11:30:30 -0800

I like amtho's "eat it with your hand" criteria, gone a bit further- if you can reasonably eat it with a fork, it's not a cookie.

Can we drop the 'sweet' requirement from the definition? I have some delicious and savory bacon and blue cheese cookies that would be happy if we did.

It may be delicious, but it's not a cookie unless it's at least got a sweet base. What you're describing is, to me, a biscuit.

Here's another rule: Its primary surface area can't be wet to the touch (when cooled, obviously). There's your lemon bar exclusion, as well as any other weird fruit concoctions.

By: rokusan

rokusan — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 12:49:55 -0800

Lemon bars, S'mores, Rice Krispie treats, and rum balls would not be considered cookies.

I agree. None of those are cookies.

If they were cookies, they'd be called "lemon cookies" or "rice krispie cookies" or whatever. And then people would say "wtf is wrong with you, that's not a cookie!"

I agree that cookies are sweet and biscuits are not, too.

Just votin'.

By: arcticwoman

arcticwoman — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 15:04:21 -0800

Bars are not cookies, it would never occur to me to categorize them as such! I don't understand the hate against savory cookies, though. Cookies can certainly be savory. A biscuit is something else entirely, more like a scone.

By: arcticwoman

arcticwoman — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 15:05:04 -0800

Maybe have separate categories for sweet vs savory cookies.

By: web-goddess

web-goddess — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 22:00:33 -0800

Actually, arcticwoman (and a few others who've made the same mistake), "biscuits" are what they call cookies in the UK and Australia. (Seriously. It's what's on the aisle markers at the grocery store and everything.) So some of the people who are using that term really do mean a cookie-type thing, and not a scone-type thing.