Comments on: Do you want to be my friend? Check yes or no.

Question: Do you want to be my friend? Check yes or no.

Ruby Doomsday — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:32:38 -0800

Some friends of a friend don't seem to want to know me. At all. Which makes for some really uncomfortable get-togethers. Looking for suggestions on the best way to deal. About eight months ago, I went to see a local band and met the musicians afterward. One of the guys was super-nice and stayed around to chat with me, while the others kind of went their own ways after the show with their friends and girlfriends and such. The friendly guy and I kept in touch and have become pretty good friends.

I also have gotten to know his girlfriend and some of his bandmates, and I consider them friends as well. However, there are a couple of guys in their circle of friends (one is in the band, one works at the club where they frequently perform) who have never warmed up to me for some reason. This bothers me because I spend a lot of time around them, but they still treat me like a virtual stranger.

I've always been shy and socially awkward, so I'm certain that's a part of it. But I see these people three times a week on average, usually in a crowded bar/concert scenario, and have tried to make conversation. I'm generally met with a blank stare and a monosyllabic answer, which tells me they don't want to take the conversation any further.

On one hand, I feel like I shouldn't sweat trying to be friends with people who don't want to be my friends. But at the same time, I think it's ridiculous that people who see each other so frequently can't even make small-talk. Also, I have to keep in mind that maybe I've been doing something that's turned them off... although aside from being dorky and awkward, I don't really know what it is.

It's kind of irrelevant but maybe worth noting that as a girl who is insecure about her looks/overall attractiveness, I probably care about guys' opinions of me much more than I should. But I have to ask because it's entered my mind - could it be because I'm not "hot"?

I realize my questions are all over the board but the gist is, what's up with this and how should I handle it?

By: poppo

poppo — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:34:33 -0800

They're probably just jerks. Kill em with kindness.

By: gnutron

gnutron — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:38:44 -0800

You hit the nail on the head - it's not worth trying to be friends with people who clearly don't want to be friends with you. AND you can't be friends with everyone. It takes two people to make a friendship work - so just focus on the people who being friendly, and forget about the others. It's their loss.

By: burnmp3s

burnmp3s — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:39:07 -0800

Are you sure it's you and not them? Have you, for example, seen them being talkative and friendly around people other than yourself? Some people are just quiet and keep to themselves rather than engaging in small talk.

By: Grither

Grither — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:39:11 -0800

Kill em with kindness.
posted by poppo

If by "Kill em with kindness" you mean, "ignore them and don't worry about it anymore, it's their loss" then yes, I agree with poppo.

By: rtha

rtha — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:40:09 -0800

They may be even more socially awkward than you are.

Also, they could just be jerks. If they're blanking you because you're not hot, then you really truly don't want them to be friends - or even friendly.

Be friends with the friendly people, be nice to to the not-friendly people, and if they want to continue to be jerks (if that's what they are), then your friends will eventually notice.

By: Guy_Inamonkeysuit

Guy_Inamonkeysuit — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:40:23 -0800

If it were me, I'd ignore them. Be friendly with those who are friendly with you, and maintain your dignity. Those others are not worth your time. Give them no more than they give you, or less.

By: ThePinkSuperhero

ThePinkSuperhero — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:40:56 -0800

There could be a million reasons they don't want to be your friend, and very few of them are in your control. If the scene as a whole isn't rewarding to you, I'd suggest branching out- three times a week is a lot of time to spend with a group of people who aren't looking to include you in their social circle.

By: R. Mutt

R. Mutt — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:41:35 -0800

could it be because I'm not "hot"?

If that were the case (and I'm not saying that it is) then they would simply be shallow jerks.

By: boomchicka

boomchicka — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:42:04 -0800

It's not because you're not hot (and who says you're not?). Whatever the reason is, I can almost guarantee you that it probably has more to do with their own hangups than anything to do with you.

If you get along well enough with everyone else, just don't worry about these few people. Ignore them and have a nice time with the rest of the group. Don't go out of your way to be rude, but don't go out of your way to win them over. Anyway, you would most likely find that they're not worth your time.

By: micawber

micawber — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:42:19 -0800

Let's remember the best quote from almost famous:

"Don't make friends with the rock stars."

Seriously, you are hanging out with people who make music as a form of expression. That does not make them nice people, brilliant conversationalists, or above-average human beings. They have failings like everyone else, but because they can play music, they've never had to overcome any of them. They pick up a musical instrument and they are worshipped and get women and free drinks.

Unfortunately rock and roll is still a bastion of sexism and people still assume that if you're hanging around a band it's because you want to shag them. And no matter what sex you are, people in the business are going to be suspect that you want something from them because they're in a band or book shows or work in a bar. Because no matter how small and crappy the band may be (another thing you don't tell us), they do have favors to bestow: free access to gigs, drinks, drugs, girls (and boys). Maybe it's because these particular humans don't know how to talk to a girl. How do they interface with other people? Are they equally monosyllabic? Why do these particular people matter so much? I mean, not everyone is going to like you, it's not kindergarten. I don't say that to be unkind, it just took me a very long time to realize that because someone didn't like me didn't mean there was anything wrong with me, or them.

You tried to make conversation. You're civil and pleasant. You don't owe them more than that. On the other hand, they don't owe you anything either.

By: cgg

cgg — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:47:21 -0800

Don't sweat it. If people don't want to be civil and/or make small talk, that's their loss. Hell, some people just suck at small talk. Be polite, say hello to them when you see them, ask them how it's going if you find yourself staring at them in awkward silence, but otherwise just accept that you don't need to be friends with your friend's friends, even if you see them frequently. It really is that simple.

By: Rosie M. Banks

Rosie M. Banks — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:47:27 -0800

If these people are not really friendly with anyone, then they're probably socially awkward. In that case, just write it off as "the way these people are."

If, on the other hand, they are friendly and funny in the company of others but cold and monosyllabic just to you, well...that also says a lot about what kind of people they are. And, unless there's very good cause - it ain't pretty. Especially if they're snubbing you because you are a girl and not hot or socially useful - it speaks volumes of badness about what kind of people they are.

For socially awkward types: continue to be kind and friendly. Eventually they may warm up to you. For shallow snobs: Be polite but cool, and above all, don't take it personally. Karma often comes around to bite snobs in the butt eventually.

By: Koko

Koko — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:53:34 -0800

They could be jerks, or they could be the kind of people that just take a really long time to warm up to new acquaintences. Just give them plenty of space and don't think about it so much.

By: mumkin

mumkin — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:56:35 -0800

I see these people three times a week on average, usually in a crowded bar/concert scenario, and have tried to make conversation. I'm generally met with a blank stare and a monosyllabic answer, which tells me they don't want to take the conversation any further.

It's worth noting that crowded bars/concerts are not great places to make conversation, blank stares can mean people are unable to make out what you're saying, and monosyllabic answers may be strategically chosen to cut through the noise. In short, it's a shitty place to try and get to know people. In my humble opinion.

Also, though, not everyone will want to be your friend. Some people have enough friends. Some people are generally unfriendly. Some people, yes, are shallow, and may not be interested in you if you don't fit their definition of hotness or hipness or smartness or political correctness or whatever. Don't sweat it, really. If everyone in the band wanted to be your new best friend, that would be unusual. So you clicked with some of them. Be polite to the rest, certainly be open to their friendship, but don't sweat it much or you run the risk of them thinking you're a psycho fangrrl. And yeah, what micawber said: musicians are not necessarily nice people.

By: ND¢

ND¢ — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:58:13 -0800

Some people make no effort to be nice to people from whom they can not gain any advantage by doing so. So they only socialize with those that they see as either their equals when it comes to money, popularity, influence, etc. These may be those kind of people and they may see no benefit from being nice to you.

However, having been in an extremely successful band (visit your local Meficomp), I know that hangers-on and star fuckers come with the territory, and I never gave any attention to people that I felt were only hanging around because I or my band mates were in a band. So there would be these type of people around, and they would try to talk to me, and I would give them the cold shoulder because I would always have in the back of my mind: "He/She would not be giving me the time of day if I wasn't in a band."

There is no real solution to either of these scenarios. You can either keep being nice to them in case they are really shy or you can write them off as jerks. Depends on which of those best suits you.

By: sweetkid

sweetkid — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 13:01:38 -0800

I had experiences like this with some of my friends' friends when I was younger. It got to the point that I was so frustrated that whenever I would go to parties, and several people would just stare at me when I walked in. I didn't want to hang out with my friend any more. However, we were still thrown together because of the mutual friend over the years, and now I am friends with the people who froze me out. It turns out THEY had pretty severe social anxiety and it just took a really long time for them to warm up. It's not you, it's probably them, and if you focus on the friendly ones, the others will either come around eventually, or you'll stop being part of this group and the problem will solve itself.

By: Greg Nog

Greg Nog — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 13:05:30 -0800

Wait, why would they be your friends? It's not like friendship is the default state for any two people who meet each other. You may not just be their "thing", which is fine -- there are literally millions of other people in the world; focus on those other people instead.

By: nat

nat — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 13:07:31 -0800

I disagree that these people are necessarily jerks. Maybe they just don't like you.

And that's okay. If they don't like you, talk instead to the people that do. It'll be better for you, and it'll be better for everyone else, too.

By: Wilder

Wilder — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 13:12:15 -0800

I went to gig recently with my cousin (early 20's) who has been following a band for about 4 years. She considers herself friends with the lead singer and his GF, and they treat her like part of the family.
But I was shocked at how the other band members treated her, like something from the sole of their shoe! The others have sometimes come to theband later, or they appear to be using this to express their frustration at the guy who formed the band. For whatever reason I don't think it has anything to do with her.
Maybe there are other dynamics going on here that you have nothing to do with, but which affect you?

By: kkokkodalk

kkokkodalk — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 13:14:16 -0800

Caveat, your definition of "friend" might differ from mine and I'm not saying it's a bad thing you're calling this particular person in your band your friend, but just my perspective on these situations.

I'm one of those annoying people who sometimes likes to chat with people in bands, however, my assumption ALWAYS is "these are not my friends." And I don't mean that in a bad way, it's more of a reality check for me to keep in mind that we simply see each other often at shows, we may keep in touch regularly, they might recognize me, they might do me favors, but in the end, we might just be acquaintances. MAYBE. For me, the litmus test is, unless we've actually hung out regularly in non-gig settings (drinking with them after a show doesn't count, hanging out before a show doesn't count. Hell, even if they SLEEP over at your place because they needed a place to crash before/after a show, that still doesn't count), I'd feel a little hesitant calling them friends, and I feel presumptuous thinking that they think of me as a friend. A friend OF the band maybe, but not their personal friend. It's like with meeting with any other perosn in life. Not everyone you meet is going to be your friend for a myriad of reasons. The whole thing with people in bands is that sort of gets amplified thanks to the fact that they're open to the general public a lot more.

It's a possibility they're tired of making friends at shows or are wary about it. They do have private lives outside of music and friends/significant others they've had for years or met through other channels. They might be the friendliest people on earth and the nicest people on earth, but as a band why shouldn't they be nice to someone who'll come to shows regularly because of their niceness or friendliness? It might just be too much to make more and keep track of them outside of a "providing good fan service" attitude. And they might even genuinely like their fans or their audience and they might be open and let you catch glimpses of their personal life. But unless you're actively a part of that personal life and not just an observer, you're not a friend. I'm not saying this one dude who's friendly to you isn't your friend, nor am I saying people in bands are nice to people to be manipulative jerks, but sometimes (no, a lot of times) band "friends" are the same thing as bar "friends." Friends by virtue of being tied to a certain common thing rather than an actual deep relationship. Like that guy you always see at Friday night happy hour. Would he invite you to his cousin's wedding? No. Not because he dislikes you, you're just not that kind of friend. You can barely remember his name yourself, but you walk in on Friday night into your neighborhood bar, and there he is and you guys, for a couple of hours of drinking a every week, are friends.

Not that it's impossible to become real actual friends with band people, but if they don't want to be friends with you, don't take it personally. Either they've got their reasons or, who knows, maybe they are just jerks. And seriously, don't worry about the "hot" thing. Do you want to be friends with them just because they think you're hot and might want to get in your pants? If it's a hook up you want, there's nothing wrong with that, but don't attribute a lack of friendship on whether or not you're hot. If they wanted to be friends with you, that shouldn't matter in the first place. And in the weird off chance that they do only make friends with beautiful people, that's probably a friend you don't want, in a band or no. Either way, nothing for you to lose sleep over. So if they're friendly to you, be friendly. If not, forget about it. All that matters in the end is the music, man.

By: desuetude

desuetude — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 13:14:21 -0800

Meh, sounds like interpersonal politics that you don't want to get into. Who knows what the backstory is? It could be you, it could be your new friend, it could be his friends.

Maybe previous pals of friendly guy have tried to screw their girlfriends or just been obnoxious hangers-on. Maybe they're snobs who think that unless you're in a band or work in a bar you're a poser. Maybe they don't like having to cover up their coke habit around you. Maybe your friendly guy has a bad habit of blowing off the band to chill with his new friends. Maybe they assume that you're trying to sleep with friendly guy. Maybe your friendly guy is going to turn out to be a jerk who pretends to be a nice guy to befriend cute girls who are a little insecure with whom he cheats on his girlfriend as if he's in some god-awful faux-deep movie.

Just be cool and don't try too hard. Give the head-nod of acknowledgment to the unfriendly peeps and leave it at that.

/have been just friends with only some of the band.
/married the bass player.

By: sully75

sully75 — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 13:16:35 -0800

People are weird. The less time you can spend in your life trying to figure out people, the happier you will be. Would that I could remember this advice myself.

But they may be socially awkward, you may be. It really doesn't matter.

And yeah, I have a lot of friends that if you told me that when I met them that three years later I'd be coming from far away to visit them and hang on their futon and play with their baby, I would have been, yeah, right.

I don't like a lot of people when I meet them. It's not fair but it's the way it happens. And then I get to know them and I like them. I have some close friends I'm still distrustful of. So I'm weird too.

I bet if you hang there long enough and you don't make too big a deal of it, these dudes may be your friends. Or not. It will stop mattering to you.

In my book, the secret to making friends is go to the same large social things (bars/dances/groups) over and over. Eventually, people will give up on their shyness, and say hello.

By: drjimmy11

drjimmy11 — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 13:21:22 -0800

I've had these experiences with friends in bands. (I'm male)

Every band I have ever been around has internal tensions, cliques, verbal arguments and sometimes outright fistfights. It's a weird situation to come into as an outsider, because they spend so much time together and there's so much history.

Sometimes being friends with bandmember A can make you an automatic enemy of bandmember B. There's not much you can do but try to not let it bother you.

By: pracowity

pracowity — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 13:24:20 -0800

Going from an unknown fan to a three-nights-a-week hanger about (hanger-on?) in just eight months is a lot. They may like you less the more they see you, especially if they think you're messing with the band's chemistry or keeping them from doing something (songwriting, practicing, brainstorming, daydreaming, blowing off steam, picking up chicks, etc.) they used to enjoy doing as a group before you came along. How do these guys get together? If it's just three nights a week and you're there every damn time, you can see how it might be a bit much for some people, can't you?

But don't try to reason too much about why they don't like you. People like people for all sorts of crazy reasons, and it's their right, right? Well, people dislike people for all sorts of equally valid reasons. They may indeed dislike you because you're dorky and awkward and not exactly hot. They may dislike you because they feel like disliking you - because it makes them feel better than liking you would. They may dislike you just because they know how much you want them to like you.

If you find somewhere else to go one or two of those nights each week, things might improve.

By: Metroid Baby

Metroid Baby — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 13:26:58 -0800

It sounds like you're doing the right thing. It can be hard to tell the difference between "jerk" and "socially awkward," and probably every shy person has been unfairly dismissed as stuck-up at least once. So, really, the best you can do is clearly communicate that you're not stuck-up, and not give them any reason to think you don't like them: smile, be friendly. You don't have to engage them in a conversation if you don't want to, just don't provide friction. It's easier to dislike someone when you suspect they dislike you, so don't fuel that from your end or theirs.

By: rhizome

rhizome — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 13:43:14 -0800

For what it's worth, I found myself in a similar situation with one of my friends in the last year. I just stopped hanging out with him if it meant that I was going just going to be hanging out with his friends who didn't seem very interested in knowing me. For instance, one of these friends is a woodworker who apparently does not want to talk about wood. I'm all for Dale Carnegie, but it's a bit silly to have to break things down so far as to begin conversations with stuff like, "So...life. Pretty wacky, eh?" Eventually I came to the understanding that my friend was just trying to invite as many of his friends so that he could be the center of attention rather than being an outsider in someone else's circle.

Why be a part of an unrewarding social scene? There are people out there who will like you for who you are, regardless of your self-esteem.

By: mdn

mdn — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 13:43:51 -0800

Any person who becomes part of a group of friends after it has already formed faces possible difficulties being accepted by everyone.
Any fan who tries to become friends with the band faces possible disdain or disinterest from at least some of the band members (they'll think you're just a groupie or a hanger-on).
And, as people have said above, not everyone you like will like you back. Some folks just won't be particularly interested in your friendship, no matter how cool you think they are, or how much it seems to you that you share.

Suckily, it is often the people you find less interesting who will want to be your friend, and you will end up doing the same to them that others do to you, ie, "why won't X hang out with me? We have so much in common... geez, I wish Y would stop going on about how we both majored in art history, s/he's such a bore..."

By: yeti

yeti — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 14:04:03 -0800

Have you bought them shots of tequila? Always a fast way to befriend strangers and deepen your ties with companions at a small Rock show.

By: konolia

konolia — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 14:04:29 -0800

Why don't you ask YOUR friend why they are that way? I'd start with that.

By: littlelebowskiurbanachiever

littlelebowskiurbanachiever — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 14:11:28 -0800

Not everyone is socially on the same page. In group settings, some people stick close to their friends and shut out new people. It doesn't mean that they're trying to be jerks, but they're sticking to what they know.

If you do become a comfortable friend with Bandmate A, you'll eventually stop caring whether or not you and Bandmate B can be friends. Maybe you will be friends at some point, maybe you won't. Maybe you'll grow to hate Bandmate B until one day you guys have an ok time together and turns out they're not so bad.

I compare it to a workplace relationship. I'm great friends with Coworker A and even though Coworker B sits right next to him, I only know B because I spend so much time talking to A. For your (self-esteem's) sake, stop thinking so much about it. You can't worry about being friends with everyone, and you can't worry about why you're not friends with everyone.

By: restless_nomad

restless_nomad — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 14:26:37 -0800

Nthing all the comments about weird band/fan dynamics - I volunteered/groupied/worked for a local band for several years and several iterations of musicians, and the dynamics were always varying flavors of weird. Getting out of that scene was probably one of the healthier things I ever did.

By: ga$money

ga$money — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 14:29:57 -0800

A couple other people have touched on this already, but one dynamic I've definitely seen among friends' bands is the "every interested girl is a groupie" mentality, particularly with women that appear suddenly and become immediately involved in the group. It often seems to defy logic or evidence to the contrary. A good friend who was making a documentary about the local music scene had to endure this from some bands for over a year before she started getting treated with respect and was allowed to be seen as just another normal person. Look at it from their perspective: they don't know you, you're not part of the band, but you're female, uncommonly interested in them, and suddenly you're around a lot. That has probably added up to "groupie" in their past experience, and the label really seems to mean something to some musicians. They're not going to take you seriously until you pass and entirely arbitrary test that exists only in their heads. The bigger question, as others have already pointed out, is whether you should care. So I'm n'thing the opinion that you shouldn't. Trying harder is only going to convince them that you want their approval. And definitely don't sleep with one of the band; you'll forever be a groupie in their eyes if you do.

By: nomisxid

nomisxid — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 15:43:19 -0800

Recapping and expounding on what's already been said,

1. Noise - if you are trying to talk to people in the club environment, that's going to turn a lot of people off. Maybe it's because they can't understand you in a quiet room, much less in the face of 110db's. I give a lot of non-committal one-syllable answers to questions I can't hear in nightclubs. Maybe it's because they really want to hear the band that's playing RIGHT NOW. You may be giving yourself a rep as one of those annoying people who interrupt the music. Maybe to you, music is the background for going out. For many, it is the primary reason, and they expect their friends to understand that.

2. Familiarity - As many have mentioned, performers develop a certain cynicism towards the intentions of people who come up to them in their performance space. If the only time you try to engage these people is when they are 'working', you're establishing yourself as a member of the great undifferentiated mass of people know as "the public". If you're just throwing them standard conversation starting lines that they here EVERY night from a dozen people, all of whom really don't care about the response, they just want a chance to tell you about their idea for a great song, or how that one song of yours about love made them remember an old relationship, etc etc...they've heard it all before, so they aren't interested in you because you are boring them.

3. Space - If this band has been together for any length of time, chances are the band members need some away-time from each other. If everyone had all the same friends, there's no escape, nothing that's just mine, not shared with everyone in the band. If you align yourself with A, B & C may not ever be your friend, not because they hate A, but just because they get plenty of A already. If you've presented yourself as A', getting to know you is just more of what they aren't looking for in their off-time.

By: yohko

yohko — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 16:52:10 -0800

could it be because I'm not "hot"?

No correlation to the behavior you are describing. Don't let this feed your insecurity.

By: kelseyq

kelseyq — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 18:56:53 -0800

Also, you could ask them. Seriously. Next time you try to start a conversation and get rebuffed, acknowledge the situation--you don't have to be, like, nasty or shrill or anything; just be like, "Dudes, did I like run over each of your cats or something? Is there some kind of family feud going on that my mom never told me about? What's with the cold shoulder?"

I know that sounds completely unthinkable, but I've found pointing out bullshit to be an invaluable social tool at times. Worst case situation, they'll roll their eyes and continue to ignore you, so no big loss; more likely, you'll find out what's really going on (maybe one of the many reasons suggested above) or they'll realize they've been socially retarded and make an effort to not do that any more.

By: arianell

arianell — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 19:31:09 -0800

I'd definitely ask your friend about it very casually. Act like it's something that you just thought of, rather than something that has been bothering you for a while: "Hmm, Tim and Seth always seem really standoffish around me. Any idea why?"

I'm also an insecure young female, and for a long time I was convinced that my boyfriend's two best friends hated me. I worried that it had something to do with my not being "hot". I asked my boyfriend, and eventually also asked the friends in question, and it turns out that they're just as shy as I am, and that they're actually really comfortable with the fact that I'm not gregarious or chatty. Maybe these guys appreciate the fact that your awkwardness doesn't force them out of their comfort zones.

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Tue, 18 Mar 2008 13:26:26 -0800

As someone who covered bands for a long time, people (even my girlfriend!) thought I was an ass at shows because I didn't want to talk to them.

1) I usually couldn't hear them very well. They couldn't hear me very well. This is often true even after the music stops (though I wore earplugs most of the time, to cut down on that).

2) I was usually there because it was my job. That meant that I had to be taking notes, which is kinda anti-social. If they're there because it's their job, that cuts down on the amount they want to chit-chat.

3) I suck at small talk. I'm good at interviews, where I grill someone for half-an-hour, but (especially if they're asking me about me), I run out of steam pretty quickly when I'm just passing the time.