Comments on: Bar Application: Disclosure of High School Incident?

Question: Bar Application: Disclosure of High School Incident?

Anonymous — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 17:22:43 -0800

I am applying to take a state bar exam. The application asks "Have you ever been reprimanded, sanctioned, disciplined or suspended or expelled from a college, university, or law school?" I was kicked out of a summer "pre-college" program at a major university while I was in high school. Does this need to be disclosed?

I know I should err on the side of disclosure. Here's the issue: My law school application had a similar question, but it was worded in a way that would exclude the pre-college program. Would this discrepancy between the bar application and the law school application cause a problem? I'm asking here before checking with the officials at my law school, but I plan to do that soon as well.

By: deejay jaydee

deejay jaydee — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 17:26:00 -0800

Yes, you should err on the side of disclosure.

By: The World Famous

The World Famous — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 17:27:02 -0800

Were you kicked out of the university, or just kicked out of a program at the university?

(IANYL)

By: The World Famous

The World Famous — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 17:27:20 -0800

And I, too, would err on the side of disclosure.

By: deejay jaydee

deejay jaydee — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 17:28:33 -0800

To be less oblique, if the l.s. app. worded the question to exclude the pre-college program, then that distinction should explain the discrepancy. If you're not sure it will, then explain this to the state and to your school. It should be no big deal, as long as you err on the side of disclosure.

By: wuzandfuzz

wuzandfuzz — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 17:31:57 -0800

I think something that might be perceived as lying would be a much bigger deal than something that basically happened in high school. If your law school app excluded it, then it should be fine.

By: awesomebrad

awesomebrad — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 17:47:48 -0800

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with wuzandfuzz: we're dealing with lawyers, here, who are always really careful about the way things are worded. I would even go so far as to say that if the application excluded it and the bar exam application doesn't, that they're intending to include such programs.

By: The World Famous

The World Famous — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 17:57:05 -0800

I would even go so far as to say that if the application excluded it and the bar exam application doesn't, that they're intending to include such programs.

That would only make sense if the same people drafted both applications, which would be really unexpected. I would also find it extremely surprising if the state bar had any idea what you put on your law school application.

Nevertheless, I would err on the side of disclosure.

By: Pontius Pilate

Pontius Pilate — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 17:59:00 -0800

Basic rule of thumb is disclose everything. Youthful mistakes, etc. will generally be forgiven; lying will not.

However, I do have a question - how was the law school application question phrased? Reading the state bar exam word for word, it doesn't seem to specifically include a pre-college program; did the law school application explicitly say "do not include any information on pre-college programs" or something similar? On what basis are you distinguishing the questions on the LS app and the bar app?

My e-mail's is in the profile if you want to talk more, since this is an anonymous post.

By: Pax

Pax — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 18:00:24 -0800

Include it.

For the bar I am a member of, for any answer to which an applicant gives a potentially harmful response, the applicant had to/got a chance to explain it both in writing and in the character interview. This thing will most likely not be a big deal (people I know had criminal offenses, disciplinary stuff, bad credit etc, all stuff that was flagged but didn't exclude them from acceptance to the bar). Lying will be a big deal. If you get caught the might reject your application.

By: katemonster

katemonster — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 18:04:12 -0800

The World Famous, in my state, at least, the bar application requires a signed copy of your law school app.

By: Pax

Pax — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 18:10:41 -0800

I meant add that what katemonster said is often true (my state asked for EVERYTHING, including speeding tickets) and that you can explain the discrepancy in your interview if need be.

By: jedicus

jedicus — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 18:12:04 -0800

Most states almost never block your admission to the bar based on character and fitness. For example, Missouri only denies admission to about half of one percent of its applicants. Given that it's almost certainly not going to hurt you, you really should err on the side of disclosure.

By: QuantumMeruit

QuantumMeruit — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 18:59:48 -0800

nthing erring on the side of disclosure. Reading between the lines, it sounds like the questioner was kicked out of the program but that conduct didn't result in any other notations on their "permanent record" (since remember, even expunged / juvenille criminal stuff needs to be disclosed, at least on the bar apps I've done).

So we're talking "youthful indiscretion" here and it seems unlikely that this (by itself) would be a bar to being admitted to the bar. Even if you assume that the character and fitness investigation would be fairly cursory (despite the comprehensiveness of the forms), the consequences of mischaracterization could blow up and magnify the "youthful indiscretion" into something much, much worse.

By: hovizette

hovizette — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 19:16:27 -0800

Do speak with your school officials about this; it may not be that big of a deal. For situations like this one (i.e., where there was no misrepresentation on the law school application), my law school allowed students to amend their law school application in order to ensure consistency with their bar exam application. In fact, they encouraged 3Ls to obtain a copy of their law school application when they started the bar application process to see if any amendment was necessary. Your law school may have a similar policy (I think it's pretty common).

By: miss meg

miss meg — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 21:04:47 -0800

The Bar Examiners actually came and spoke to my class today and the general overtone was to err on the side of caution and disclose everything - one girl asked about being told in undergrad by an RA to get rid of a candle and the examiners said to disclose that incident.

By: Ironmouth

Ironmouth — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 21:43:31 -0800

I am not your lawyer. I'd also err on the side of disclosure. The other thing is that nearly everybody has something on there like this. You're not alone.

By: miss tea

miss tea — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 04:39:29 -0800

one girl asked about being told in undergrad by an RA to get rid of a candle and the examiners said to disclose that incident.

Are you kidding me? I mean, I thought it was ridiculous I had to write a letter to my law school about a 10 mph speeding ticket I got right before matriculating so they can include the info with my bar app-- but a freakin' candle??? How infantilizing can the bar get?

Do I have to disclose that time I called my mom a bitch? (Joking. I would never do such a thing. Except maybe in high school.)

By: Soulbee

Soulbee — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 10:03:19 -0800

i am almost positive my friend got in trouble for not disclosing a high school discipline issue like yours. i would advise to disclose, but i'm not an expert.

By: averyoldworld

averyoldworld — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 12:57:49 -0800

I have a friend who got a public urination citation and was admitted to the bar without a problem. As he says, "They don't care so much if you eat babies, as long as you tell them about it."

The examiners get fussy about issues of moral turpitude.

By: wuzandfuzz

wuzandfuzz — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 17:53:02 -0800

Awesomebrad, I wasn't saying that he should not disclose it, when I said it should be fine if his law school app excluded it I was saying that it was unlikely that his disclosing it to the bar and not to the school would be an issue. I think it should certainly be disclosed to the bar, that was my point about lying being a bigger deal than the actual infraction itself.

Eek, now that I look back I can see how it would be read that way. Don't listen to what my previous answer might appear to say, anonymous! Disclose disclose disclose!

By: miss meg

miss meg — Fri, 14 Mar 2008 10:16:01 -0800

Are you kidding me?

No, I'm not. I am pretty sure that on the drive back to the office, the bar examiners were shaking their shaking their heads about the students at my school. Really, I learned a lot about the neurosis of my classmates in those 45 minutes with the bar examiners. Also, when that girl told the story, there was a collective eye-roll by the other 40 students in the room. Crazy stuff...