To boot or not to boot?
March 2, 2008 9:33 AM Subscribe
Should I give my co-advisor the boot? Question about dealing with a difficult advisor for my grad program...a nice, long read awaits you...
I am in a graduate program and I have two advisors, one in my department (I will call him NP) who is very easy to get along with, and one in the professional school I wish to get into after my master's (I will call him R).
I am doing a multidisciplinary grad program, one that will look really good on my application to the professional program that I want to eventually be in. NP thought that having an advisor in that department would be helpful, so I asked R to co-advise. R is basically an ok guy...nice, listens when you have problems, and I think he tries to be helpful, but...
R is an incredibly difficult person to work with. I like to think that it is a combination of cultural backgrounds and Napoleon complex. He is coming up for tenure in about a year. He has screaming fights with his department head, and is extremely confrontational with other members of his department. I am getting tired of it, but NP is trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. So far:
1) When I asked him what tests he would like me to run on the blood samples collected, instead of 'advising' me, he told me to ask a friend of his. I found this odd. I asked the friend, who gave me limited info that was not helpful. So...
2) I am taking a class in the professional school as part of my plan of study, and asked the professor (who is in R's department) for suggestions. He told me to talk to M, and even spoke to M on my behalf. M was extremely helpful (she is an expert in part of what I am studying). The tests and protocol that M suggested were completely different from R's friend's suggestion, and are considerably more valid (the opinion of NP, the prof from my class, etc.) M has gone out of the way to train me in techniques and find information, even though I am not her student. She has been more helpful to me than R ever has. M even went to talk to another expert for me (she thought it would be useful), and when she did...
3) The expert and R were working together, and M approached the expert and asked his advice, used my name. R immediately flew off the handle and jumped M's case: "Why is she talking to you?!? She is MY grad student!!!" M was accompanied by her grad student, who asked R if he knew anything about the technology in question. No, he didn't.
The next time I was training in M's lab, she approached me and said that it wasn't her place, but she didn't want me to be blindsided when he confronted me about it (coming up). She also gave me advice, which was to get him off of my committee. She says that he is a loose cannon, and is confrontational with most everybody. She also said that in her annual review, the department head had read R's comments and dismissed them as BS, saying that he had contributed very little to the department, and had blown his startup package on traveling to seminars all over the world (he did not present at any of them). She said that she doesn't usually have problems with R, but the way she deals with him is just to tuck her tail and run.
4) So NP and I and gone to pick up supplies for the field work (R was out of town at a seminar-not presenting). He had wanted us to drop off the list and then he would pick it up. The supply clerk would not let us do that, so we had to take the supplies and store them in M's office. I emailed R and told him where the supplies were. He sent me a fairly nasty email, asking why I had done that, etc. Then, he called me, on a Friday night, and starts out with, "I'm not mad, BUT..." and confronted me about the supplies and meeting with M, and that I should tell him who I am talking to in his department. I told him that he was my advisor, not my parent, and I can talk to whomever I wish. I had forwarded the email to NP, who had also received an email, but a considerably more polite one. NP was thrilled that I was talking to other experts for their input, R seems to be threatened. Did I step on toes? Am I not supposed to ask for outside advice?
I don't know if this happens alot, and if I should just suck it up and deal. I know two other grad students who deal with R, one who has him as an advisor, and the other has him on her committee. The one that he advises, L, is having huge problems, as he has just left her to fend for herself. The other one has found him to be pompous. L said that he calls and yells at her as well, and that when she goes to his office he is sympathetic, but not helpful.
R was already kicked off of one committee that we know of, and R's major professor did not recommend him for his current position. He has not published since he arrived 3 years ago, and has received an ultimatum from his department head. I think he is clinging to my project because of the travel aspect and because of the publishing potential. I question his value as a contributor for this project, and could probably pick up M in his place. M has been here one year less than R, but has published 6 papers since her arrival. Has anyone else experienced this particular flavor of hell? Any thoughts or opinions as to how to handle this? I apologize for the length, but I wanted to give an idea of the situation. This is completely stressing me out.
I am in a graduate program and I have two advisors, one in my department (I will call him NP) who is very easy to get along with, and one in the professional school I wish to get into after my master's (I will call him R).
I am doing a multidisciplinary grad program, one that will look really good on my application to the professional program that I want to eventually be in. NP thought that having an advisor in that department would be helpful, so I asked R to co-advise. R is basically an ok guy...nice, listens when you have problems, and I think he tries to be helpful, but...
R is an incredibly difficult person to work with. I like to think that it is a combination of cultural backgrounds and Napoleon complex. He is coming up for tenure in about a year. He has screaming fights with his department head, and is extremely confrontational with other members of his department. I am getting tired of it, but NP is trying to give him the benefit of the doubt. So far:
1) When I asked him what tests he would like me to run on the blood samples collected, instead of 'advising' me, he told me to ask a friend of his. I found this odd. I asked the friend, who gave me limited info that was not helpful. So...
2) I am taking a class in the professional school as part of my plan of study, and asked the professor (who is in R's department) for suggestions. He told me to talk to M, and even spoke to M on my behalf. M was extremely helpful (she is an expert in part of what I am studying). The tests and protocol that M suggested were completely different from R's friend's suggestion, and are considerably more valid (the opinion of NP, the prof from my class, etc.) M has gone out of the way to train me in techniques and find information, even though I am not her student. She has been more helpful to me than R ever has. M even went to talk to another expert for me (she thought it would be useful), and when she did...
3) The expert and R were working together, and M approached the expert and asked his advice, used my name. R immediately flew off the handle and jumped M's case: "Why is she talking to you?!? She is MY grad student!!!" M was accompanied by her grad student, who asked R if he knew anything about the technology in question. No, he didn't.
The next time I was training in M's lab, she approached me and said that it wasn't her place, but she didn't want me to be blindsided when he confronted me about it (coming up). She also gave me advice, which was to get him off of my committee. She says that he is a loose cannon, and is confrontational with most everybody. She also said that in her annual review, the department head had read R's comments and dismissed them as BS, saying that he had contributed very little to the department, and had blown his startup package on traveling to seminars all over the world (he did not present at any of them). She said that she doesn't usually have problems with R, but the way she deals with him is just to tuck her tail and run.
4) So NP and I and gone to pick up supplies for the field work (R was out of town at a seminar-not presenting). He had wanted us to drop off the list and then he would pick it up. The supply clerk would not let us do that, so we had to take the supplies and store them in M's office. I emailed R and told him where the supplies were. He sent me a fairly nasty email, asking why I had done that, etc. Then, he called me, on a Friday night, and starts out with, "I'm not mad, BUT..." and confronted me about the supplies and meeting with M, and that I should tell him who I am talking to in his department. I told him that he was my advisor, not my parent, and I can talk to whomever I wish. I had forwarded the email to NP, who had also received an email, but a considerably more polite one. NP was thrilled that I was talking to other experts for their input, R seems to be threatened. Did I step on toes? Am I not supposed to ask for outside advice?
I don't know if this happens alot, and if I should just suck it up and deal. I know two other grad students who deal with R, one who has him as an advisor, and the other has him on her committee. The one that he advises, L, is having huge problems, as he has just left her to fend for herself. The other one has found him to be pompous. L said that he calls and yells at her as well, and that when she goes to his office he is sympathetic, but not helpful.
R was already kicked off of one committee that we know of, and R's major professor did not recommend him for his current position. He has not published since he arrived 3 years ago, and has received an ultimatum from his department head. I think he is clinging to my project because of the travel aspect and because of the publishing potential. I question his value as a contributor for this project, and could probably pick up M in his place. M has been here one year less than R, but has published 6 papers since her arrival. Has anyone else experienced this particular flavor of hell? Any thoughts or opinions as to how to handle this? I apologize for the length, but I wanted to give an idea of the situation. This is completely stressing me out.
Well, it seems to me that you have actually answered your own question. R is not contributing to your work. He is difficult, aggressive and rude to you and others. He is not thought well of by faculty in his own department. He is hindering your research by attempting to block you from speaking to others (and may actually burn bridges for you in the future). He is not even productive in his field. You have painted a picture of someone who is currently in a professional nose-dive. You already have a replacement picked out who would be helpful. Speak with M see if she is amenable to being your co-advisor, or if not, could she recommend someone. Once you have secured someone, kick R the hell off--in a polite, professional way.
posted by anansi at 9:48 AM on March 2, 2008
posted by anansi at 9:48 AM on March 2, 2008
R is not normal. While I've known some petulant faculty members, I think it's very, very weird to imply that a student should not discuss their research with others.
Find a new adviser, such as M. Their first task will be advising you on how to gracefully get rid of R.
posted by grouse at 9:51 AM on March 2, 2008
Find a new adviser, such as M. Their first task will be advising you on how to gracefully get rid of R.
posted by grouse at 9:51 AM on March 2, 2008
M sounds great.
R is going to cause you problems all the way up to your graduation (which may potentially be delayed and delayed and...) and possibly even afterwards. I've been there, but my R was a full-on "supervisor," not that he did much for me.
posted by porpoise at 10:35 AM on March 2, 2008
R is going to cause you problems all the way up to your graduation (which may potentially be delayed and delayed and...) and possibly even afterwards. I've been there, but my R was a full-on "supervisor," not that he did much for me.
posted by porpoise at 10:35 AM on March 2, 2008
I see your biggest problems in getting rid of R as doing it in a way that minimizes the difficulties M and R's department head will experience from your actions, and keeping R from damaging your reputation and prospects in that department.
I would ask the department head and M for their advice about a graceful way to get free of R (and take it), and depending on their advice, I'd offer R the chance to withdraw rather than get the boot, and perhaps even a co-authorship on a paper if he agrees to play nice (if your other authors would be willing to tolerate that!).
posted by jamjam at 11:32 AM on March 2, 2008
I would ask the department head and M for their advice about a graceful way to get free of R (and take it), and depending on their advice, I'd offer R the chance to withdraw rather than get the boot, and perhaps even a co-authorship on a paper if he agrees to play nice (if your other authors would be willing to tolerate that!).
posted by jamjam at 11:32 AM on March 2, 2008
Listen to your instincts - R is very bad news. It would be one thing if he was a brilliant scholar who just happened to have poor social skills, but he clearly is not a competent researcher, and "poor social skills" doesn't even begin to describe this guy's flavor of dysfunction. An advisor is supposed to be someone who a) is competent in your area of research and b) will help you succeed in your research and professional life. R is neither. Also, it sounds like he's going to be given the boot by the department in about a year, and if you're not done with your thesis by then (which may not be an issue, I don't know how far along you are), you'd be faced with having to find a new advisor anyway (and would likely have to redo a lot of your work as well).
I agree with those who have suggested you approach M. M is already behaving like a good advisor should - training you, helping you connect with experts in your field who can help you with your research, giving you advice. Also, M is already familiar with your research and sympathetic to your position, and it sounds like she'd be quite willing to continue advising you in a more formal capacity (or at least introduce you to someone else equally suitable). M and NP can give you advice on how to handle dumping R, and I think they'll both agree you're doing the right thing. R is toxic, and you and your education deserve better.
posted by I Said, I've Got A Big Stick at 11:38 AM on March 2, 2008
I agree with those who have suggested you approach M. M is already behaving like a good advisor should - training you, helping you connect with experts in your field who can help you with your research, giving you advice. Also, M is already familiar with your research and sympathetic to your position, and it sounds like she'd be quite willing to continue advising you in a more formal capacity (or at least introduce you to someone else equally suitable). M and NP can give you advice on how to handle dumping R, and I think they'll both agree you're doing the right thing. R is toxic, and you and your education deserve better.
posted by I Said, I've Got A Big Stick at 11:38 AM on March 2, 2008
R's behavior is not typical and you should kick R off your committee. Professionals, adults, and especially educators, should not act that way towards students or other people. Make sure you tell NP and the chair first. R will not improve.
posted by about_time at 12:13 PM on March 2, 2008
posted by about_time at 12:13 PM on March 2, 2008
You brought R on as an advisor because it would be beneficial to have someone from the program you want to attend. But if he has a bad reputation in that program then not only do you have all these problems but you're not getting the benefit you sought either (and his name on your resume might even be a negative). If dropping him doesn't hurt your chances of getting into the program then there's no reason to keep him.
posted by winston at 12:14 PM on March 2, 2008
posted by winston at 12:14 PM on March 2, 2008
R will likely not get tenure.
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:28 PM on March 2, 2008
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:28 PM on March 2, 2008
Yeah, I think you should be prepared for the circumstance that R does not get tenure and leaves before you even get to this school.
posted by advil at 1:17 PM on March 2, 2008
posted by advil at 1:17 PM on March 2, 2008
I'll just echo the others to say that R won't get tenure if he hasn't published and has problems with his department. For your own professional development as well as your sanity you need to drop him as your advisor.
posted by ob at 2:28 PM on March 2, 2008
posted by ob at 2:28 PM on March 2, 2008
Go with M. This stuff is difficult enough without people being snits. You owe it to your work.
posted by Wolof at 5:56 PM on March 2, 2008
posted by Wolof at 5:56 PM on March 2, 2008
Seconding fourcheesemac. Anti-collegial and no pubs in three years? His department is DYING to ditch him, guaranteed. If he asks why you're dumping him, say that you it's not in your best interest to work with somebody who's not tenured- or say "it's not in my best interest to have an advisor who's leaving this university" and let him twist in the wind.
posted by ethnomethodologist at 10:54 PM on March 2, 2008
posted by ethnomethodologist at 10:54 PM on March 2, 2008
say "it's not in my best interest to have an advisor who's leaving this university" and let him twist in the wind
Sorry for the late response, but really—just because you've got a sharp stick at hand is no reason to poke the bear.
If R flies off the handle when told that his service as your co-advisor is no longer required, try the broken record "it's nothing personal" response, or maybe "I don't think we're a good fit for each other." You don't owe him more of an explanation than that.
posted by Orinda at 3:32 PM on March 3, 2008
Sorry for the late response, but really—just because you've got a sharp stick at hand is no reason to poke the bear.
If R flies off the handle when told that his service as your co-advisor is no longer required, try the broken record "it's nothing personal" response, or maybe "I don't think we're a good fit for each other." You don't owe him more of an explanation than that.
posted by Orinda at 3:32 PM on March 3, 2008
Oh, and just in case the following question from the OP was not rhetorical:
Am I not supposed to ask for outside advice?
It is your research—you should most definitely seek help and advice from WHATEVER sources you find useful and supportive of your work. I can't imagine being confined to talking about my research only with my official advisors. A good advisor might have differing opinions from his or her colleagues, but should be willing to argue rationally with you about the substantive issues, not try to shut down your communication with everyone else.
posted by Orinda at 3:42 PM on March 3, 2008
Am I not supposed to ask for outside advice?
It is your research—you should most definitely seek help and advice from WHATEVER sources you find useful and supportive of your work. I can't imagine being confined to talking about my research only with my official advisors. A good advisor might have differing opinions from his or her colleagues, but should be willing to argue rationally with you about the substantive issues, not try to shut down your communication with everyone else.
posted by Orinda at 3:42 PM on March 3, 2008
This thread is closed to new comments.
After you jettison this guy, it will be clear to you, too. Even if he does get tenure- which is extremely unlikely based on what you say here, his possessiveness and irrationality, his jealously and his temper tantrums, are going to only get worse. He also seems fundamentally unhelpful. I encourage you to ask nice Prof. M to be your adviser instead before this gets enve more complicated and before you become even more dependent on Prof. R.
Get away from this person, and stay away from them. His behavior will not improve, it will get worse. When he doesn't get tenure, he'll take it out on you, and then he'll be gone and you won't have an adviser.
posted by foxy_hedgehog at 9:47 AM on March 2, 2008