Unethical to leave job for startup grabbing other employees?

February 27, 2008 6:42 PM

Some former co-workers have asked me if I'm interested in leaving my current position (where they used to work as well) to join them at their startup. Does this burn bridges at the old job?

OK. So, about a year ago two guys I work with left to startup a new company. It was an amicable split. Our company had recently been acquired and the founders were leaving so the culture was changing.

Where I work now, someone recently left and it was a contentious leaving. I've taken on most of his responsibilities with no raise and it's uncertain how long it will be until a replacement is hired. I'm basically holding everything together right now. But I haven't been happy at this place for a long while. Bad culture. All that. Corporate overlords getting more involved. Bah.

Even so, I feel like the timing to leave would be bad and especially since I'm leaving to join a company that has already grabbed another former employee from the current place. (Granted he had quit this place well before being offered a job at the startup.)

The new place is a startup. They're well funded. I'd be doing what I do now plus more. Culture seems really cool. I know a lot of the people.

I just don't want to leave anyone in the lurch or go out on bad terms and I'm wondering if just in general it's unethical for me to make this move.

I'm excited about this other place and it's more money. But if I leave where I am I feel like I'm completely screwing everyone over. Anyone ever found themselves in this predicament? Is the anxiety normal?

posted by anonymous to Work & Money (14 answers total)

I think it's normal to feel anxiety, and it's a sign that you're an ethical person. When you go to work at a place everyday and you're working with people you've gotten to know, I think it's natural to feel a sense of greater responsibility than is called for. The truth is that a job's a job, and I think that the only accurate way to look at it is that every day you work there, and they pay you, you've each treated each other fairly and fulfilled your respective obligations. You don't owe them your life. If the culture is anxious and everybody's overworked and underpaid, I *promise* you that you have co-workers (including superiors) who are looking elsewhere. Jerry Maguire is not a favorite film of mine, but I quote it to friends (and it's only ever my women friends) who talk like you're talking right now. "It's not show friends, it's show business." If you are being offered a position with more money, more interesting work, and cool people who you already know and respect, you'd be a fool not to go for it.
posted by moxiedoll at 6:58 PM on February 27, 2008 [3 favorites]

Just be careful that you don't have any sort of non-compete clause. I worked at a place and an entire department resigned when they got their crappy bonuses. The senior managers had set up a competing firm. When the bonuses were delivered, the managers resigned, told their employees that they all had better offers if they would join them, and all of the employees resigned. It was a pretty awesome way of sticking it to the man, but the man responded with lawsuit for everyone involved seeking recovery of crappy bonuses and damages for the managers.
posted by Frank Grimes at 7:01 PM on February 27, 2008 [1 favorite]

You can't necessarily control whether your departure is on bad terms. As much as an employer might like you to feel ethically obligated to assume their responsibility for dealing with the fallout of the inevitable turnover in personnel, it is in fact your employer's responsibility to do so. If they are unprepared to deal with your resigning your position that's their failing, and if they get upset about it, while it's unfortunate (as one always prefers to leave a job on positive terms) it isn't your problem. You have an opportunity to leave a position you are dissatisfied with, for an opportunity that you are excited about with additional benefits. We call it a no-brainer.

Give as much advance notice as you feel you securely can (you have to weigh the possibility you could be asked to summarily pack up your desk) and do what you can in your remaining employment their to assist the transition, and you will have gone well beyond any ethical obligation you have to your current employer.
posted by nanojath at 7:37 PM on February 27, 2008 [2 favorites]

I worked in my last gig for three years after an acquisition made my work life very difficult. I stayed because I hoped things would improve, because I hoped they would get acquired (and I would get a payday), because I'm a sucker.

In the end it worked out. I took a position that probably wouldn't have been in my capabilities/sphere had I not stayed. I felt very similarly about leaving. I was leaving just as my company acquired their largest target to date and I played a significant role in M&A activity as well as being a product manager. My boss was *very* understanding and supportive.

It sounds like this might be where you are right now. I say take the opportunity. You only live once and you can bet that your company isn't going to look out for you in the same way you're looking out for them.
posted by FlamingBore at 7:51 PM on February 27, 2008

In this context, loyalty is overrated. Cherry-picking is a vote of confidence and will ALWAYS reflect well on you personally. Not only that, but your current job has turned to crap and management isn't treating you well (by my estimation). Jump ship. Ignore any counteroffer talk unless you want to bounce your salary at the new place up and play the negotiation.
posted by rhizome at 7:57 PM on February 27, 2008

I started my company with two others from a large Dev house here in Melbourne. Me a programmer, a Creative and a Sales. Initially all was going well, and the company we left even offered to supply us with our first contracts as two of us took a bit of mindshare.

Then for some bizarre reason, the company we left decided to sue us, claiming that we had breached our contracts- we hadn't at all.

They played really dirty, sent the lawyers around to our homes to serve summons on our wives (even typing that makes me angry to this day) knowing full well that we were at work, and our wives (mine heavily pregnant at the time) would really worry about losing the house etc.

Then they started a whispering campaign at the company we left, and bought down an edict that if anyone was to speak with us they would lose their jobs and invite legal action. Major fucking stress.

We were a startup with no money and no clients, and had to find lawyers to defend ourselves in court in Sydney (we were based in Melbourne, but they decided to go us in Sydney for maximum disruption)

All this time we knew they didn't have a case at all. It didn't matter, they were trying to spend as much of our time demanding we provide evidence etc, they would never "put up" and go to court, until our lawyers (they were cunts too) FINALLY called their bluff. They set a date but didn't show up.

Cost us 18k in legal bills, I don't know how much in opportunity cost, and the other two walked away thinking they were leaving behind a stinking shell.

A week later, a job dropped out of the sky for a large insurance company- that was five years ago- I'm going string with a great little company with some really unique IP.

The two pricks who tried to sue us were sacked after the debacle, they used a top legal firm, would have cost them heaps more than 18k. I lost some really good friends and got grey hair and almost a divorce.

Advice? DONT TRUST THE COMPANY YOU ARE LEAVING!

Give a signed undertaking that you are not taking any IP, nor will solicit any of their clients or staff. We did none of these, but it didn't stop them having a go.
posted by mattoxic at 8:16 PM on February 27, 2008

As previous commenters have noted, you have to cover yourself legally, to the extent you deem it necessary or possible. Make sure there's nothing in your contract that makes it likely they could punish you (legally) for taking this other position.

You aren't (from what you've mentioned above) talking about taking clients, walking away to execute elsewhere on a specific project developed at your current employer (i.e. taking IP or work-product or what have you)...or defaulting on ethically binding obligations to people who've treated you well ...you've been "holding it together" because you've been forced to, I surmise. This does not equal an open-ended obligation to stay -- other employees may have their lives made harder, but that's not a good reason to sacrifice the opportunity you describe. As moxiedoll and nanojath have it, a "no-brainer":

As for your rep, you can't control how people will respond to your departure, but by giving appropriate (not over-generous) notice, making sure that you leave your responsibilities in order for the next person who comes along, and thanking everyone who's been decent to you, you'll stand a good chance of being well remembered, even by those people personally inconvenienced by your departure.
posted by BT at 8:33 PM on February 27, 2008

Are you worried about losing friendships or the positive resume experience? I'm not sure if it's law or just a company policy, but I work for a very public company, and our HR dept can only confirm that any employee was, in fact, employed, along with position/length of employment for potential employers of former employees. That bridge isn't something you should worry about, as the larger "corporate" presence they take on, the more likely they'll be to handle this the 100% professional way.

As far as relationships go, I've found that those worth keeping will persevere. Your employer is very lucky to have your loyalty, but it isn't something you owe to them. They do not keep you (or others) employed because they feel they owe it to them; if the bottom line dictates layoffs, then they will happen, regardless of loyalty. Your personal bottom line should be as well-served by your actions.

You're a good person, so of course leaving a company that has been decent to you for another that is spearheaded by former employees is raising a few flags. Take something positive from that and jump at the chance to open more doors for yourself.
posted by littlelebowskiurbanachiever at 8:47 PM on February 27, 2008

But I haven't been happy at this place for a long while.

The new place is … well funded.

I can't see why this is a hard choice. If you don't like your job, you have an offer for a better one, then take it. Or at least demand a huge-ass raise.

Check with a lawyer if you're worried about non-competes. California, for one, has no non-compete laws.
posted by delmoi at 9:31 PM on February 27, 2008

What moxiedoll said. Many people find it hard to leave a job, especially if it's their first 'real' job. But you need to realise that your new corporate overlords don't care about your job. If it becomes more convenient for them to have that job done by someone else, somewhere else, you'll be looking for a new job the next day. IMHO, the ransacking of pension funds and the embrace of the 'flexible workforce' means that the corporate world has relinquished any call it may have had on company loyalty.

If you're convinced about the new opportunity, go for it. Your colleagues will understand and your resume will be fine.
posted by Jakey at 2:05 AM on February 28, 2008

Your current employers wouldn't be concerned in the about you "being screwed over" if they felt it was necessary to let you go. Give them two weeks notice, and take the new job.
posted by Scoo at 4:02 AM on February 28, 2008

Fuck 'em. They've doubled your workload and the place sucked before that. Even if the new thing doesn't pan out, you need to get the hell out of your current place. They'd have no compunction firing *your* ass.
posted by notsnot at 7:08 AM on February 28, 2008 [1 favorite]

"Hey, I've got an unsolicited job offer for X amount. Can you match it? No? Here's my resignation."
posted by electroboy at 7:09 AM on February 28, 2008

Yes, it will burn bridges.

Yes, you should absolutely do it anyway.

I've taken on most of his responsibilities with no raise

That's why you should leave. For future reference, once an employer realizes you're willing to take on more work with no additional compensation, they've got you pegged as a sucker. Because you are.

Don't waste five minutes worrying about "leaving your old company in the lurch"; they'll get by without you. Quitting a bad job to take on a good job isn't unethical, it's just smart.
posted by ook at 1:31 PM on February 28, 2008 [1 favorite]