Recommendations needed for online law schools in Louisiana

February 20, 2008 9:33 PM

I am interested in pursuing a degree in law. There are no law schools where I live and am too settled to uproot. What do mefites think about online law programs? Legitamacy, practicality, etc? Any suggestions on one over another? Personal experiences? One other complication is I live in Louisiana (where our law code is a little bit idiosyncratic). Does this affect national online law school choices? TIA
posted by donmayo to education (19 comments total)

To begin, it depends on what kind of job you want. A job with a medium to large law firm is basically right out, and many small firms would also reject your application out of hand. Unless you're planning on opening your own practice, I would first inquire generally with potential employers to see if they would consider an applicant with a law degree earned through online study. Take any employment statistics provided by the law schools themselves with an enormous grain of salt.
posted by jedicus at 9:39 PM on February 20

There are no ABA approved distance ed law schools in the US and you can't be admitted to the Louisiana bar unless you've graduated from an ABA approved law school in the US (with some exceptions for those who went to law school abroad).
posted by phoenixy at 9:43 PM on February 20

All of this said, you CAN take the California bar exam with an online law degree, and that licenses you to practice law in--at last tally--9 states via reciprocity agreements with California.
posted by LGCNo6 at 9:48 PM on February 20 [1 favorite]

Going to an unaccredited school is a tremendous waste of money and time. Don't do it.
posted by Saucy Intruder at 9:58 PM on February 20 [2 favorites]

I had typed a longer post, but firefox crashed. So, in brief:

1) If you are not willing to move to attend law school in person--which I think should be the ONLY way you consider going to law school, full stop--you may not be sufficiently committed to carry through on what is a difficult course of study and a difficult career. It can be rewarding--but it is tough--not working in a mine tough, but don't underestimate how difficult it can be.

2) Do NOT bother with any program that is not accredited by the ABA. The only thing it will be good for is a more nuanced viewing of Law and Order repeats. You will not have a career, and you may not even be able to sit for the bar itself.

3) Think of the costs--I'm not sure financial aid will be available in any meaningful way for a (possibly non-accredited) online program. Law school in person is expensive (usually a revenue raiser for a university, so they jack the prices), and it can take a while to recoup the costs, even on a big law firm salary. Search for "Loyola 2L" online, and you'll find a tale of woe told by an anonymous average law student who went to an average law school, and ended up with no job, a mountain of debt and a justifiable axe to grind. Also, as you know, LA has civil law, and is the only state with the civil code in the US. LA is not a really big legal market (though all parts of daily life need lawyers, so there is surely work out there). Are you ready to swim upstream against the tide of Tulane and Louisiana State grads who trained in person, have connections with alumni and a career office helping them out?

This doesn't sound like a good idea to me. Law may be a great move for you, but don't do it this way. It's just a path to debt and frustration.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 10:12 PM on February 20 [1 favorite]

2nd Saucy Intruder and AH. There is no such thing as a respected American online law school. The three extant ones look sketchy indeed, being unaccredited and I haven't heard of anyone being hired with their credentials outside California.
posted by StrikeTheViol at 10:21 PM on February 20

Didn't think so. I've got my doctorate in astrophysics and my commission in Her Majesty's navy from the University of Phoenix online (in six weeks!), and I was sure I would have heard about the availability of a good on-line program in law while I was working towards those achievements. donmayo, the link in striketheviol's post definitely makes the programs look less than reputable. Did you have another one in mind?
posted by Admiral Haddock at 10:35 PM on February 20

All of this said, you CAN take the California bar exam with an online law degree, and that licenses you to practice law in--at last tally--9 states via reciprocity agreements with California.

Plus, you can practice Social Security law, bankruptcy, civil litigation in federal court, criminal defense in federal court, etc. A California law license would entitle you to practice in federal court anywhere, I am pretty sure (in my state that's the case).

As for these comments:

There is no such thing as a respected American online law school.

Do NOT bother with any program that is not accredited by the ABA. The only thing it will be good for is a more nuanced viewing of Law and Order repeats.

Going to an unaccredited school is a tremendous waste of money and time. Don't do it.

That's all bullshit. I went to a top-20 brick-and-mortar school. I have seen firsthand what Concord's online legal education is like, and trust me, it is a comprehensive, demanding, and completely legitimate legal education. Furthermore, the rigor of the California bar exam puts to rest any questions about the competency of Concord graduates (as well as the graduates of any online school who pass the bar).

If you want to work in a prestigious big firm, then by all means, don't go to an online school. Those firms are exceedingly concerned with the pedigree of their attorneys. But in the rough-and-tumble of retail law practice (any practice where your fees are paid primarily by ordinary people, not corporations) there is very little concern about pedigree. A Concord degree would not hurt you. Ordinary people are not nearly as snobbish as members of the legal profession are.
posted by jayder at 10:43 PM on February 20

I dislike it when people call bullshit so fast.

Relevant quote: Once you’ve used your online law degree to practice law in California for a few years, you may be able to work as a lawyer in additional states. Many states will permit California lawyers to take their bar exams after five to seven years of practicing law. Alternatively, you could enroll in a Master of Law program accredited by the American Bar Association. Such programs take only one or two years and will help you qualify to take the bar exam in other states. You may also practice law in federal courts located in any state.

Louisiana bars unaccredited grads from practice, and has no reciprocity with California, or currently, any other state, due to its unique legal heritage.
posted by StrikeTheViol at 11:17 PM on February 20

Jayder and donmayo, check out the PDFs on the right of this site for the National Conference of Bar Examiners. The state by state pass rate for the 2006 bar exams shows 1) that no applicants that attended non-ABA accredited law schools sat for the LA bar (which I think is consistent with what the prior posters had remarked) and 2) that only 25% of applicants from non-ABA accredited schools passed the CA bar, compared to 57% of those from ABA-accredited schools. CA is a notoriously difficult bar, as jayder notes. There are some states where there is greater parity (or higher passage for the non-ABA applicants in states like New Mexico, where the TWO non-ABA grads passed, for a 100% non-ABA pass rate), but most of the others are have about a 2 to 1 ratio in raw percentage terms--though this is, of course, highly misleading due to the great disparity in numbers of ABA approved and non-ABA approved applicants.

In general, people tend to go to non-ABA programs due to some sort of necessity--they may not have gotten in to an accredited school, may not have had the funding to do so, or they may not have a program nearby, like donmayo. But anecdotally, at least, I think the report should give don pause. It is a hard row to sow to be at a non-ABA program. Even if the program materials are good, distance learning does not give you the same educational experience as you would get in person. (Full disclosure: I HATED law school.)
posted by Admiral Haddock at 11:21 PM on February 20

All of this said, you CAN take the California bar exam with an online law degree, and that licenses you to practice law in--at last tally--9 states via reciprocity agreements with California.

Fine print: after several years of practice in the original jurisdiction. I'm not aware of any immediate reciprocity between any two states. Typically it requires four to five years of practice in the original state before anyone else will license you.


If you want to work in a prestigious big firm, then by all means, don't go to an online school. Those firms are exceedingly concerned with the pedigree of their attorneys. But in the rough-and-tumble of retail law practice (any practice where your fees are paid primarily by ordinary people, not corporations) there is very little concern about pedigree. A Concord degree would not hurt you. Ordinary people are not nearly as snobbish as members of the legal profession are.

Going to disagree here. If you want to work in any law firm (aside from one you start yourself) consider sucking it up and going to school in person. There might be small, or even large, firms for which this is not the case, but those are exceptions and not the general rule. No one should dispute that there are many ways to learn the law outside of attending law school. What I argue is that learning the law might seem pointless when you can't find someone to hire you to practice it.

If, on the other hand, you want your JD to support another profession or degree, an online course might be perfect for you.
posted by toomuchpete at 11:29 PM on February 20

Bad idea. Also, law school sucks hard for everyone, even people who really want to be there. It's only more unbearable for someone who's lukewarm about it. If you're not willing to completely disrupt your life (which would happen even if you lived next door to a law school) then law school may not be for you.
posted by lockestockbarrel at 12:07 AM on February 21

Plus, you can practice Social Security law, bankruptcy, civil litigation in federal court, criminal defense in federal court, etc. A California law license would entitle you to practice in federal court anywhere, I am pretty sure (in my state that's the case).

That's not necessarily true. For example, to practice in the US District Court ND Cal, you must be a member the California Bar and reside in California. If you're admitted in another state and reside in another state, you can be admitted to the ND Cal bar pro hac vice. But if you're admitted in another state and reside in California, you're not eligible for pro hac, according to the ND Cal Civil Local Rules.

The same is true in other districts and other states. Pennsylvania has very strict rules on this issue. A colleague of mine wanted to transfer from one of my previous firm's California offices to the Philadelphia office. He was going to move around New Years and take the February bar. His practice was exclusively in federal courts, including some outside Pennsylvania, but the PA bar said that if he was in PA working on those cases while waiting for bar results, he'd be engaging in the unauthorized practice of law, which would hurt his chances of ever being admitted there. That would also limit his ability to practice there, even in federal court.

So, for donmayo, the idea of attending law school online, and taking the California bar, with the hope of practicing in a different state through reciprocity or just in federal courts... well, that's not a sure thing, and should be researched thoroughly. From other comments, it looks like it wouldn't be available in Louisiana. And since donmayo can't move for law school, it's probably safe to say moving to one of the 9 states that have reciprocity or to a district where he could practice in federal court without being admitted to the forum state's bar, is not on the table.
posted by jewishbuddha at 12:18 AM on February 21

I don't mean to pile on here. But assuming that the OP wants to practice, I think this is a high risk idea. To respond to a couple of points made by the dissenting view here:

I have seen firsthand what Concord's online legal education is like, and trust me, it is a comprehensive, demanding, and completely legitimate legal education. Furthermore, the rigor of the California bar exam puts to rest any questions about the competency of Concord graduates (as well as the graduates of any online school who pass the bar).

I would be interested in knowing what this firsthand knowledge is, since it did not apparently involve "attending" Concord, and is inconsistent with the views of most professionals (who I will admit have a stake in defending the status quo). In any event, the argument that passing the CA bar exam would overwhelm doubts about the competency of Concord grads is not compelling. By hypothesis, the poster is practicing in LA (not L.A.), and the material question is whether he is a member of that bar, and it's not especially tangible to say I'm-a-Concord-grad-but-passed-the-CA-bar-before-waiving
-into-LA-so-I'm-good -enough. Anyway, one of the reasons the CA is thought to have a low pass rate is precisely because it is so easy for persons to sit for it, so (whether true or not) this argument would appear to have a feedback loop in it.

If you want to work in a prestigious big firm, then by all means, don't go to an online school. Those firms are exceedingly concerned with the pedigree of their attorneys. But in the rough-and-tumble of retail law practice (any practice where your fees are paid primarily by ordinary people, not corporations) there is very little concern about pedigree. A Concord degree would not hurt you. Ordinary people are not nearly as snobbish as members of the legal profession are.

I agree that lawyers are bigger snobs than non-lawyers about these things, but in a way they are more discriminating in their snobbery. Having lived in LA, I expect that someone looking for a lawyer would be more impressed by a credential from LSU or Tulane than by any number of higher-ranked schools; they will also remain snobs, albeit to a lesser degree. Sure, a certain number won't care at all as long as the person has a licensed. But to think that this will be a non-issue if the poster passes the bar is, to my mind, extraordinary wishful thinking, and depends in any event on the proposition that the poster wants to hang a shingle by himself (and so not be dependent on anyone else hiring him or affiliating with him) AND to settle for a client base of the totally un-snobby and/or naive. Not a good business model.
posted by Clyde Mnestra at 7:16 AM on February 21

I'm joining the "no" column, partially due to the reciprocity/accreditation issues covered above, but also due to the fact that, in my opinion, law school is about getting more than the piece of paper at the end. That may sound overly romantic, but advancement in the law, like in most industries, is largely based on personal connections you have with people. Going the online route means that you don't have classmates to really keep in touch with, and you don't have the same shared experience that everyone who has gone to law school has to some extent. I don't think these touchy-feely reasons should carry more weight than the accreditation issues, but they should be considered as well.
posted by craven_morhead at 7:19 AM on February 21

It isn't the getting of the degree that's the problem, its the getting of the job. Almost impossible with an online degree.
posted by Ironmouth at 8:59 AM on February 21

I would be interested in knowing what this firsthand knowledge is, since it did not apparently involve "attending" Concord, and is inconsistent with the views of most professionals (who I will admit have a stake in defending the status quo).

I have a family member who received a law degree from Concord. I've seen the lectures, the class materials, the various online discussion groups, etc., and it is a difficult, high-quality and rigorous legal education. I concluded that the Concord program requires a student to work every bit as hard as a graduate of a brick-and-mortar school, perhaps harder. I was kind of snobbish myself in choosing to go to a top 20 law school when the law school in my home town would have been just fine. But I have been hugely impressed with Concord --- and more importantly, with my family member who went there. She's interned with two attorneys, and can analyze legal problems and do legal work far better than I could when I graduated from law school.

That's not necessarily true. For example, to practice in the US District Court ND Cal, you must be a member the California Bar and reside in California. If you're admitted in another state and reside in another state, you can be admitted to the ND Cal bar pro hac vice.

That may be true, and perhaps the poster would be unable to practice in the federal courts of his home state. I am, however, aware of numerous federal district courts that have no requirement that an attorney be licensed in the state where the court is located, only that an attorney be licensed in some state.

I am not saying the online degree is optimal (given the tremendous barriers in place against graduates of non-ABA accredited schools), but that if you have no other choice, it is a legitimate way to become an attorney.
posted by jayder at 12:43 PM on February 21

Please don't get a distance law degree. I hear what Jayder's saying - sure, a person could be a total autodidact and read books for free and develop a brilliant legal mind! But that doesn't matter if you can't sit for the bar in your state and practice. And I completely disagree that it would only be an issue if you wanted to work at a big firm... yes, they are more likely to be choosy about *which* ABA-accredited school you went to.... but correspondence school is really off the map for even small employers, and government jobs. Whether it's fair or not, the fact is that a lot of people hear "distance learning" and think "diploma mill".
posted by moxiedoll at 2:24 PM on February 21

That may be true, and perhaps the poster would be unable to practice in the federal courts of his home state. I am, however, aware of numerous federal district courts that have no requirement that an attorney be licensed in the state where the court is located, only that an attorney be licensed in some state.

I agree that it varies from state to state and district to district, which is why I said it should be researched thoroughly before making a decision one way or another.

As the original poster can't move from Louisiana, it seems that looking into the rules for the three federal districts in Louisiana would be the right path, rather than just assuming an online degree and admission to the California bar would allow him to practice in those courts. Attorneys are eligible for admission to the bar of the ED La if they are members of the bar of Louisiana. ED La also has its own pro hac rules governing practice by attorneys not eligible for admission to the ED La bar.

I'm not getting into the fray over the quality of the online education. I'm just addressing the practicalities. Someone who resides in Louisiana, can't leave Louisiana or attend an accredited law school in Louisiana, and only wants to practice law in Louisiana, probably won't be able to get by with an online law degree and admission to the California bar.

If the original poster is seriously considering this path, the best bet would be to call the Louisiana State Bar Association and the Clerk's Office in each of the federal districts there to make sure he'd be eligible. It would be a shame to spend the time, money, and effort to compete law school only to find yourself legally ineligible to practice in the only place you are willing or able to practice.
posted by jewishbuddha at 3:22 PM on February 21