I don't want a friend. I want quiet after 10:00PM

February 18, 2008 8:10 AM

Remember my previous question regarding a noisy upstairs neighbor in our condo complex? Its gotten worse.

Same neighbor, same problem. Heres what I have done to rectify/address the problem.

(My neighbor is a mother of two teenage sons).

- Gone up to their unit and asked them to stop making noise. I'm no prude or psycho. I am a working musician and make enough noise myself. My wife and I do not bother them unless it is after 10:00PM. Any other time we are totally ok and understand that noise will happen and we live with it. In the beginning they were very accommodating and turned the stereo/boom box down or stopped Wrestlemania 2008. Now they do not answer the door.

- Called the police (10 times over the course of five years). The last time they came they said take it up with my association. Little did they know that I had done this on many occasions. I have a chain of emails to prove it.

- Tried to get our association to intervene. According to our bylaws, they do this. We've gone through three associations/management companies. The first time, our association fined them and then rescinded it when she complained. I was livid. The second time (after they knocked a picture off our wall from the teenagers wrestling) she was asked to appear at a meeting with me and our association. She was a no show and they fined her again. Inexplicably, the noise stopped for almost six months and it was awesome. Then about four months ago it started up again only worse. The teenage sons, now a bit bigger and a fuckton more energy, like to play "Rock Band" in their room above my seven year old daughter's room. They play until 2:00 and 3:00am. My daughter has to sleep with us in our room, it is so loud.

- Tried to be a friendly neighbor. I'm always pleasant with them. I hold doors, help her with groceries, helped her find a 24 hour glass place when her rear car windows was smashed out, had generally good conversations with her. Her sons are two lumps who sit around, smoke dope with their gang-banger wannabe friends BUT I've tried to go out of my way to be friendly. I offered one of them guitar lessons, etc., but it is like talking to a brick wall.

This weekend it was utter mayhem upstairs. Starting at 5:00PM Friday and until last night at 1:00PM, the stereo was thumping, Rock Band until all hours. The mother was gone all weekend so it was party time. Our daughter spent Friday and Saturday sleeping with us because her room was a fucking echo chamber. We are at wits end.

I sent an email to my association telling them I am withholding all future assessments until the situation is addressed.

I feel like I'M the crazy one because, god forbid, I purchased a condo with the expectation of being able to sleep nights and raise my daughter.

Fuck being their friend. I tried. I don't want friends. I want fucking quiet after 10:00PM.

Advice? Any legal impressions are welcome. Next step is a lawyer if they'll even bother with a case like this.

(Apologies for the rambling. I'm not very happy right now).

posted by KevinSkomsvold to home & garden (29 comments total)

The only advice I would have is to not withhold payment to the condo association. I understand that you're upset, but these are absolutely the people you need to have on your side. They will turn on you for lack of payment much faster than you'd think.
posted by shinynewnick at 8:21 AM on February 18 [1 favorite]

sell the condo. seriously - why fight these psycho neighbors and the impotent association? just move. don't want to sell? rent the place. but move on. you don't need this noise - literally - and neither does your daughter.
posted by seawallrunner at 8:23 AM on February 18

shinynewnick - I will do that if they raise a stink about it (I understand your reasoning) but they have been impotent in addressing the problem. I want to hit them with something.

seawallrunner - It is for sale. Sorry I didn't mention that. Its not getting many bites in the current market but there you go.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 8:27 AM on February 18

If it is for sale, definitely don't withhold your dues. You don't want to finally get a buyer and then have things hung up by unpaid dues plus penalty fees. The threat may be enough to get things moving, though.

I'm not quite sure why the police have been so unhelpful with the situation. While I'm not a fan of calling in the cops, perhaps you should call down to city hall at a calm and reasonable time and find out what the laws are regarding noise complaints. Is the noise still happening when the police arrive?
posted by shinynewnick at 8:33 AM on February 18 [1 favorite]

I have a chain of emails to prove it.

You've been emailing your association? I dunno... somehow emails don't have the same bite as certified letters.

she was asked to appear at a meeting with me and our association. She was a no show and they fined her again. Inexplicably, the noise stopped for almost six months and it was awesome.

It sounds like she at least responds to being fined.

I sent an email to my association telling them I am withholding all future assessments until the situation is addressed.

Don't do this and stop sending emails. Emails mean nothing and withholding payment will just piss off the only people who have any possibility of doing anything about your problem.

Do you have access to a video camera with good audio reception? I'd make a little film throughout your apartment when they are at their loudest, maybe walk around the apartment pointing the camera up at the ceiling and occasionally zooming in on a clock to demonstrate the time. Then, with camera still running, I'd walk up stairs and knock on the door. If they answer tell them you're documenting the noise. If they don't shut the camera off. Either way play this video back for your association.

The people in your association probably are not realizing just how bad the problem is. I mean, noise complaints are probably their number one problem and I think you are really going to have to standout before they take you seriously.

Showing up with a video (bring a television if you have to) maybe the only way to get them to act. It'd also be icing on the cake if the mother was there to see it as well.

I also would rope in a lawyer to attend the next meeting with you. I'm not sure what if any legal action you have, but having a lawyer present may frighten both the neighbor and the association into action.

You also need to throughly document this problem going back to whenever it started. Workup a time line including dates of corespondents, the times you've called the police, etc... anything you can do to build a list showing just how bad and untenable the problem is.

Good luck.
posted by wfrgms at 8:37 AM on February 18 [1 favorite]

they have been impotent in addressing the problem. I want to hit them with something.

Again, I want to stress that they may not realize how bad the problem is. These people are probably clueless and your emails may have been mishandled by some office underling. If you provide them with some type of real demonstration of just how bad it is - other than your probably pissed-off, ranting emails - they will have to respond.
posted by wfrgms at 8:39 AM on February 18

Wait till you smell them smoking pot and call the cops and report that, not the noise. Mention that you have a small child in your home and that having drug users upstairs makes you worried for her safety. That is something that the cops will be more likely to get involved in, rather than a noise complaint. After whatever happens with the cops, tell the neighbors or their mother that they can either smoke pot quietly or be loud and make sure that they aren't holding, because you are going to call the cops for every whiff of marijuana you smell until they learn to keep it down.
posted by ND¢ at 8:40 AM on February 18

shinynewnick - The cops were helpful in the beginning when these cobs would answer the door. Once they stopped answering the door, the police weren't about to knock it down (understandably). The last time they came out (it was 2:00AM) I asked the officer to come into my unit and into my daughters room. Immediately the drumming stopped! That just made them think I was a nutcase.

Update: Email from my management company -

I spoke with Kathy and Erick last week as there have been other recent complaints as well. I am currently seeking some legal advice about the Association’s rights in this matter. I will keep all parties updated as I hear back from the attorney.

Kevin, I urge you to continue paying your assessments. These are separate matters and if your assessments go unpaid, I will be forced to place you into collection.

I will let you know when I hear back from the attorney.

Is that a light I see?
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 8:45 AM on February 18

Do you have a camcorder with a timestamp? If you do then good. Every single time this happens, make a video. What you aim the camera at is unimportant (though, I'd say their door would be a good candidate). The important part is that you get the level of sound recorded, with the time stamp. Make a little collection of these videos. What you are doing is making an record of an ongoing nuisance.

If your condo association is anything like mine, half the board members probably don't even live there, and if they don't "see" it, it's not their problem. Once you have these videos to show them, they cannot ignore the problem anymore.

Check your condo docs if you have not already -- is there a section in the bylaws dealing with "quiet times"? Is there a penalty for repeatedly violating it? If so, get a lawyer to write a letter for you, to your association, stating that you are withholding your fees until the owner of the noisy unit is assessed the harshest penalty possible under your bylaws.
posted by brain cloud at 8:54 AM on February 18

wfrgms - Very good points.

Our management company made it very clear, early on, that email would be the preferred mode of communication. They have been very good to respond. They simply take minimal action. I am very confident that my correspondence is getting to the right people. They asked me to document each and every time they are in violation. I did this and sent it. I continue to send email when a violation occurred. I have police logs which I had to request in person (thanks, City of Chicago!). I have video of the noise emanating from above my daughter's room but it is really hard to pick up the noise on the tape.

At one point I threatened, somewhat jokingly to our condo board, that I'd haul a Marshall full stack out of storage, set it up in my room and tell the wife and daughter to spend the evening at her sister in laws while I fought fire with fire (gotta love rage fantasies!).

ND$ - Good idea. I'll keep that one in the back pocket.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 8:59 AM on February 18 [1 favorite]

Actually I think fighting fire with fire is a fairly decent idea if management and the police are doing nothing. Granted the reports I've heard about this technique are anecdotal, but there seems to be a pretty fair effectiveness -- you hit them when they are sleeping (like 6 am) with something like loud opera through the floor, which ultimately results in them toning it down. The other alternative is to put pressure on the police by turning the firehose of paperwork on your local councilperson or city manager. Another alternative might be to wine and dine all the neighbors, organize them into action (i.e. a situation with sinking property values) and bring pressure on management.
posted by crapmatic at 9:07 AM on February 18

Also on further reading I think you should work with this management company only through certified mail, in the remote event you have to bring legal action against them (like if you have to bring pressure on them, or if they kick you out, or they "lose" the complaints when new staff shows up). This is part of your paper trail. Email and telephone calls are not paper trails.
posted by crapmatic at 9:10 AM on February 18

Emails mean nothing

Quit perpetuating this lie. An email's importance versus a letter varies wildly from person to person and the court will typically not care whether your message was routed by post-office robots or ISP robots.

2nding NDc's comments wrt police/pot and also the suggestions that you record it for posterity.
posted by toomuchpete at 9:10 AM on February 18

Ah, sounds like there is hope in the matter. Do your best to work with the condo association as this moves forward. Document, document, document.
posted by shinynewnick at 9:15 AM on February 18

If it is for sale, definitely don't withhold your dues. You don't want to finally get a buyer and then have things hung up by unpaid dues plus penalty fees.

Seconding this. I appreciate that it feels like Doing Something, but it will complicate the hell out of things in a sale as the association can place a lien against your property, which might leave you in the uncomfortable position of explaining you stopped paying because the neighbors are awful and you can't sleep.
posted by yerfatma at 9:31 AM on February 18

I had a friend who had some dispute with a landlord and began putting their rent into an escrow account. They informed the landlord of their plan and the escrow company would pay out all rents once a resolution was met. I don't know if this is an option for you but it seems to me that that establishes good faith of a sort and makes it clear to all parties that you seek resolution to the dispute.

The tough thing about neighbor noise is that once you become irritated by a sound, it can just consume you. And squeaks and bumps that are tolerable during the day become intolerable at night. It sounds like you are in a totally intolerable situation and you have my sympathies.
posted by amanda at 9:44 AM on February 18

I thought I'd chime in and say I agree with those who say you should video tape the situation.
posted by delmoi at 10:54 AM on February 18

I don't have any direct experience with mediation, but I wonder if it might be an option to at least consider? (Either to mediate a solution directly with your neighbor regarding the noise, or -- in the event that nothing comes from their latest email -- perhaps to mediate a solution with the association regarding their intervention?)

And you also have my total sympathy, Kevin. I know just how deeply upsetting this kind of situation is. I hope it gets fixed, and fast.
posted by scody at 11:22 AM on February 18

Scody - thanks for that. A very tangible option if all else fails.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 11:39 AM on February 18

Take a vacation. Before you leave put on a terrible piece of music like 'Afternoon Delight' on a boom box and put it up against the shared wall hopefully close to one of their beds. Start the music playing on infinite repeat.

Lock everything up tight and maybe have a house sitter check frequently or stay there.

Come back a week later and you've completely made your point in 72 pt bold caps.

Rinse and repeat as needed. There are other nastier things you could do but that's a good start. Remember that you are being psychologically hassled by chumps. Get the upper hand or they will continue to roll over you.

A letter from a lawyer threatening court action, lawyer fees, penalties for loss of livelihood and etc. is also a good way of getting someone's attention.

Also another tactic: get a recording of a barking, aggressive dog and play it full decibel level when the party gets out of hand. Nothing will mess with their heads more than the sound of a dog snarling, barking and yapping next door. Leave it on and go away for the night.

Bet you it gets nice and peaceful the next evening.

Treating people even-handedly who are being chumps is not a winning strategy. I would refuse all contact with them, speak in mono-syllables and have a threatening countenance. They are pointedly ignoring your well-being for their own selfish ends.

NRA stickers might be a good idea to discourage retaliation.

Just my two cents worth. Don't know I'd follow my own advice in your shoes but I'd sure think about it and maybe try it out at least one of the above.
posted by diode at 12:00 PM on February 18

You can also look into lawsuits against the association board (for failure to execute the bylaws of the association), against the association as an entity (due to this woman's membership in the association, and her actions impacting your enjoyment of your property, etc.), and against this woman. It's kinda a burn-the-bridges action, but we had a couple of these while I was on the board of my co-op, and they were definitely taken seriously (they were actually a pain in the ass, because we—unlike your association—were already taking all legal action to evict the folks causing the disturbance, but having to document that and defend it meant that our management company abandoned a lot of the informal discussions that were just kind of spinning wheels and moved into the "we're total hardasses" mode).
posted by klangklangston at 12:11 PM on February 18 [1 favorite]

You're going to hate me for saying this, but...

Move out.

If you're going to share walls with random people, you really should have NO expectation of comfort or privacy. Regardless of management or policies or whatever, you cannot pick your neighbors and I have yet to see a landlord who is willing to step on toes to make sure the lives of "good" tenants are better than those of "bad" tenants. You should consider yourself lucky whenever you have peace and quiet while living in a condo/apartment, because (depending on the area) multi-family buildings are like honey to bees when it comes to loud people, rude people, annoying people, drug users, etc, etc, you get my point.

Do your family a favor and find yourself a nice house to live in. Even better, maybe something out in the country with enough land that your closest neighbor is a couple hundred feet away. It isn't worth the gamble to continue living in a condo only to have unnecessary stress from something you really have NO control over and NEVER will.

[[embraces for impact as other posters criticize my advice or use my posting history to criticize me]]
posted by skwillz at 12:19 PM on February 18 [2 favorites]

Being a dick in return isn't likely to work, because you don't want to get into a "Who's the biggest dick" contest. It sounds like they would go to great lengths to out-dick you, and I doubt you want to go there.

It sounds like the condo association is finally starting to take notice, so I'd email them every day to see how their efforts are coming along. Maybe your next move would be to sue the assoc for not enforcing the bylaws.
posted by Mr. Gunn at 12:40 PM on February 18

Lots of people recommending videotaping with audio -- not going to do much to prove that a sounds is loud or quiet -- just that it is audible to the camcorder mic. Go to radio shack (or similar), buy a cheap decibel meter, and point the camcorder (with timestamp etc) at it.
posted by misterbrandt at 1:10 PM on February 18 [1 favorite]

If you're going to share walls with random people, you really should have NO expectation of comfort or privacy. Regardless of management or policies or whatever, you cannot pick your neighbors and I have yet to see a landlord who is willing to step on toes to make sure the lives of "good" tenants are better than those of "bad" tenants. You should consider yourself lucky whenever you have peace and quiet while living in a condo/apartment, because (depending on the area) multi-family buildings are like honey to bees when it comes to loud people, rude people, annoying people, drug users, etc, etc, you get my point.

My condo is up for sale and bylaws prevent us from renting it to someone else. If it were that easy, we would have done it a long time ago, believe me.

Allow me to reiterate that I have not asked my noisy neighbors anything above and beyond what is reasonable. As I stated in my original post, I'm fine with noise. I make noise. We all make noise. I've NEVER complained to them about noise during the day. The problem is when it continues, unabated, into the evening/early morning hours (between 10:00PM onward) and affects my daughter's ability to sleep. I have the very reasonable expectation despite the fact that its a condo/apartment, of being able to have that happen. I think most people would agree. I have been very careful to try and not be the crazy neighbor. I've let a LOT of shit go under the bridge in hopes that it would "just go away." I've followed every instruction my management company has given me. My neighbors have run roughshod over my good will and my management company's inability to uphold their own laws/rules.

So essentially, fuck them in the eye.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 1:17 PM on February 18

I live in Denver, and woke up this morning to a story on the news about a longstanding neighbor feud that ended this weekend when one neighbor rang the door of the other and then shot them when they answered.

It just kind of made me think that barking dogs and NRA stickers are maybe not the best way to handle this.
posted by Sheppagus at 1:18 PM on February 18

Sheppagus - Ha! Yeah I read that too. Thankfully fantasies are not against the law. Yet.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 1:21 PM on February 18

In almost all cases, withholding association dues puts you on the wrong side of the "law". You signed paperworks when you bought the place guaranteeing that you'd abide by the rules. The #1 rule is to pay the dues.

Agreeing with everyone else- send the board of directors of the association a certified/registered letter telling them to rectify the situation by a certain day, or you will sue.

Then do it.

The association may have the power to do a forced sale of the neighbors' property (the condominium version of an eviction), and your suit should specify that as one of the acceptable remedies.

I'm no lawyer, but it sounds like it's time to pull out the big guns.
posted by gjc at 1:42 PM on February 18

Where's the power cutoff for their unit? Just saying. It'd be strange if their power kept tripping off every time they were being loud after 10pm.
posted by ctmf at 2:08 PM on February 18