I DO SO HAVE MORALS! WAAAH! YOU'RE JUST MEAN!

February 12, 2008 7:16 PM

Atheism filter: How do you deal with the awkward un-comfortableness and sense of betrayal when someone indicates complete non-belief is cuckoo, or inherently immoral? This sort of statement is never made with malice in mind, but it hurts my feelings.

I am an atheist. It's never been a big deal to me, because I live in mostly secular Canada, my parents were atheists so I had no big rejection/coming out odyssey. I have religious friends, and while their habits may seem a bit strange to me, I have Aspergers so everything- humans do is strange. But throughout my life when I make friends, the conversation may turn theological.

At which point, the person will usually declare equal toleration for all beliefs, except you know, people who don't believe in some sort of universal great spirit. Because you know those people eat babies and they couldn't imagine being friends with an atheist. While not knowing I am an atheist because it's never been an important part of my life.

For example my university prof declared that atheists are arrogant in tones of disdain. Now while I'm willing to say that the universe is indeed subject to debate, I was hurt. If he'd said 'Christians are arrogant' he'd be pilloried, but for some reason just because the Great Spirit all these people believe in refuses to talk to me, my beliefs are somehow intolerant and inferior. :(

Some friends have made the matter even more awkward by flat out asking “You believe in god, right?” Coworkers earnestly tell me that they believe all religions are wonderful and that you ‘just have to believe in something’.

I've sort of stopped attending the prof's class, which will kill my logic mark, because he made me so uncomfortable with repeated 'atheists = hidebound and unable to think outside the box’ that even after figuring out that his problem was that he’d been reading Dawkin’s work and extrapolated it to all atheists, I don’t want to see him again.

How can I handle irrational arguments like ‘You need god to be moral’? I don’t like being called immoral. I have morals because I have empathy. They wouldn’t like it if I questioned their morality so whatever happened to ‘Do unto others?’

I feel scared, isolated and just a little teary eyed just thinking about religious ostracism, which I also feel embarrassed about. Maybe it was childhood where mistakenly mentioning ‘atheist’ on the schoolyard led to earnest admonitions I was going to hell that makes me anxious, but I feel like I’m in social hell right now when people I like or want to be friends with keep making innocent exclusory statements.

So, how do I handle it? Crusade for atheist rights? Nod and smile? Therapy so I won’t feel so insecure? Fake a conversion?

posted by Phalene to human relations (77 comments total)

^so everything, whoops, typo
posted by Phalene at 7:17 PM on February 12

Ask them questions, questions and more questions. Don't be loud or rude, just persistent. Every time they make a generalization about atheists, just ask them to clarify or support the statement.

"You can't have morality without a god." "Why not?"

Just keep asking why, and eventually they'll either realize they're being irrational or, more likely, just give up.
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:20 PM on February 12

The problem is not the arguement. Atheism is the world's most easy position to defend. The problem is that I don't want the arguement because it makes me feel rejected and I need a better way of dealing with it than dogged debate.
posted by Phalene at 7:27 PM on February 12

You can respond to such things with "God gave us free will. I don't believe he exists but if he does, you may do well to consider that he gave me the free will to not believe in him, and will forgive me when I die."

As for morals, I find it arrogant to say that only Christians can be moral and atheists are by their very nature immoral. You can go ahead and use that one on your professor, if you like. I'm an atheist and I hold down a job, don't do drugs, drink in moderation and have never been committed of a crime. Unlike many Christians and Catholics, I and my atheist friends have never been convicted, let alone accused, of being child molesters.

You can provide a concession in such arguments by saying that you recognise Christianity had a hand in shaping the moral structure of much of the western world, including the country in which you live. You can say that you recognise that your moral base, even as an atheist, is derived from Christian values. But you can then smack them down and say you don't need to believe in a magical sky wizard and his retribution for your alleged sins to keep you on the straight and narrow. You can then finish them off, as they cry on the ground, by saying that the only judgement you fear is that of your peers, that of a legally appointed judge and jury, and that as long as you follow the rules of the land in conjunction with your own moral (yes, moral) centre, you'll be able to lead a happy, full and content life.

And if they still don't buy that, you can tell them to fuck off, because if they can't tolerate your belief system you can't see any reason to tolerate theirs.
posted by Effigy2000 at 7:29 PM on February 12 [4 favorites]

Frankly, it sounds more like a psychological problem (although not a big one) to me. I'm an atheist and if somebody says something so arrogant to me, I'd figure it just shows that they're kind of stupid. Why should it hurt you if somebody else is an idiot?

(Not that I haven't done my share of arguing, but then I'm one of those guys who likes arguing.)
posted by callmejay at 7:31 PM on February 12 [1 favorite]

This is my favorite atheist FAQ. Reading through it might give you ideas for how to handle some things.

If somebody's surprised at non-belief, you can always say "I know, I know, I'm just as confused by your beliefs as you are by mine." It's not even a lie.
posted by Tacos Are Pretty Great at 7:32 PM on February 12 [3 favorites]

Maybe a little snark? Something like "That's all well and good, but I'm waiting to hear it from the Big Guy himself".
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 7:33 PM on February 12

You say, "well, I'm an atheist, and I have a firm moral code. I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't generalize like that. There are some atheists who are jerks, and many who aren't jerks, just as with any group of people."

Also, you should talk to the chair -- or the director of undergrad studies -- of the department that this prof is in. (I'm a professor. This is not something you need to put up with.) Don't screw up your marks for this. You're certainly not the only atheist in the class who was offended that that remark. The professor shouldn't say stuff like that in class. You can talk to him and say "you know, I'm an atheist, and I'm not arrogant, so I was pretty uncomfortable with what you said the other day" -- OR you can talk to the chair or the director of undergrad studies, or anyone in the department you feel comfortable with, and explain what happened. My guess would be that the prof will apologize and say "many of the vocal, public atheist "spokespeople" are arrogant, that's what I meant".

I'm an atheist and I teach philosophy, and no, you don't need to have a religious faith to have a strong moral code.
posted by LobsterMitten at 7:33 PM on February 12 [7 favorites]

Oh, and as for morality, I'd just ask with all seriousness if they refrain from various wrongs because of an inner moral compass, or because of a desire to get to heaven/fear of godly wrath.

Nobody does basic good/refrains from basic evil because of their religion. It might help.
posted by Tacos Are Pretty Great at 7:34 PM on February 12 [1 favorite]

How can I handle irrational arguments like ‘You need god to be moral’?

"Oh fuck off" tends to work for me.

No, it's not a logically rigorous argument, but it gets you just as far as one would. You don't need to have an argument every time you meet a presumptuous Theist.
posted by pompomtom at 7:34 PM on February 12 [3 favorites]

Here's how humans can have morality without gods: we need morality to survive. If someone needs gods in order to keep themselves from committing horrible crimes, then that person is very scary. Go ahead and ask the next time you're prodded about morality: "So you're saying that if you were 100% convinced that [insert god(s) here] didn't exist, you would then immediately commence to kill, rape and rob whoever you wanted?" Of course they wouldn't. Those things are wrong, with or without any supposed commandments from on high.
posted by tepidmonkey at 7:34 PM on February 12 [2 favorites]

I think that, "I prefer not to talk about that." should be enough. If they persist, politely end the conversation and cross that person off.

Most people I've talked to have gotten the hint when I say that. The ones who don't generally are people I'd rather not know anyway.
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 7:36 PM on February 12

Vocal, public spokespeople are prone to arrogance. Or is it that arrogant people are prone to become vocal, public spokespeople?

There's an interesting article on the topic discussed here: 10 Things Christians and Atheists Can and Must Agree On. You may find useful thoughts in that thread.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 7:44 PM on February 12

I happen to be a Christian, but it is clear to me that throughout history some VERY intelligent and moral people have been atheists, agnostics and theists. Some have been one and later changed into another, etc.

I think what *is* "cuckoo" is to try to defend a belief or non-belief based on tradition, fashion or supposed impact on society. In my experience there are many who claim to believe but their actions are inconsistent, and many who say they do not believe when in actuality they are just reacting to poor treatment by a church or its representative.

I would not ever want to be rude to an atheist...one of my favorite writers (C.S.Lewis) was an atheist at first. And, of course, it's always hard to figure how to stop people from being rude (there was a recent question here at AskMetaFilter about nosey and rude neighbors, so the problem is not isolated to religion).

Perhaps (and on this point I am not sure) you might try what I do when people tell me they find Christianity stupid. I tell them it could be the basis of an interesting discussion, coming as we do from opposite view points. Let's get comfortable so we can talk for a couple hours. Usually they have something else to do. Go figure. (:->)
posted by forthright at 7:47 PM on February 12

I don't know if this is quite what you're talking about, but when confronted by intolerant attitudes of any kind, "speaking up" often carries a risk of making you seem shrill, emotional, easily offended, and uptight.

The best way of not seeming shrill and easily offended, is to address it in easygoing tones of humor, while sticking the argumentative knife in. With a smile, say, "You must be joking" ... "You can't really mean to say that [offensive statement]" ... "Don't you realize you just maligned 90% of my fellow Canadians ..."

Patiently, tolerantly, amusedly correct their repugnant attitudes. Never seem emotional or shrill about it; act as though you are amused by their idiocy. Act a little incredulous that they could be so closed minded.

[Of course, everything I am saying could be used just as effectively by Christians who are met with rude intolerance and closed-mindedness by atheists.]
posted by jayder at 7:54 PM on February 12

If these people are good friends you should be able to say "You know what? It's mean spirited and cruel of you to say something like that to me. Please don't do it again." (Or, as I say to my friends when they insult/bother me "Fuck off, you're being an ass.")

If they are your coworkers you can use the same line, but if they persist make sure you go to their superiors. This is a kind of harassment, you shouldn't have to put up with it.

If they are strangers you can let them know that you don't really need their opinion, but, unfortunately, there is not much you can do to keep strangers from being dicks if they have a mind to be.

About that professor? You should go and talk to the department chair. His behavior is inexcusable. At the very least you are entitled to take the class with another professor. There is no reason for you to get a poor grade when the professor is the one acting badly.

FYI, I'm Catholic, the behavior you describe here (especially from co-workers and teachers) is just wrong. You are not weird for being insulted. They are being complete jerks and behaving just incredibly badly. Not all religious people are this bad, I promise.
posted by oddman at 7:57 PM on February 12

Just keep asking why, and eventually they'll either realize they're being irrational or, more likely, just give up.

Don't do that unless you really mean to dispute someone. An atheist I know took this tack with a guy who turned out to be a serious theologian who just would not let go. They went at each other like wounded bulls for three hours. Better to avoid this until you're ready for it. Are there any other atheist groups nearby you could draw support from? Perhaps find a confidently atheist mentor: it worked for a friend of mine.
posted by StrikeTheViol at 8:01 PM on February 12

even after figuring out that his problem was that he’d been reading Dawkin’s work and extrapolated it to all atheists, I don’t want to see him again.

How can I handle irrational arguments like ‘You need god to be moral’?

Have you actually read Dawkins? He devotes an entire chapter of The God Delusion to the above question. It's a great read all around and I think it would help you feel better. He spends a lot of it addressing folks who have misgivings about their atheism.

There's an interesting article on the topic discussed here: 10 Things Christians and Atheists Can and Must Agree On. You may find useful thoughts in that thread.

I read that article and that thread when they were posted, and neither was interesting, so don't waste your time.
posted by ludwig_van at 8:03 PM on February 12 [1 favorite]

Just ask them why they believe in magic.
posted by plexi at 8:03 PM on February 12 [4 favorites]

How can I handle irrational arguments like ‘You need god to be moral’?

By responding: "Whatever. I don't want to argue with you or anyone else about religion or morality."

Citing Dawkins, using any of his or Hitchens' arguments, or asking them "why they believe in magic" will only solidify their belief that all atheists are arrogant jerks. If you are worried about giving people the impression that atheists are arrogant, an appeal to Dawkins is not a fantastic idea.
posted by The World Famous at 8:12 PM on February 12

Jeez, don't get sucked into the argument. What you believe or don't is none of their fucking business. And the converse is also true. Change the conversation to the weather.
posted by unSane at 8:17 PM on February 12

Keep in mind that they just might not know any better.


(Longer, but not necessary, explanation follows)

I have always been modestly non-conformist. I started going to church in my teens and stayed in through college. As a christian, I tried to witness to everybody about my faith while simultaneously trying to prove myself to all the people that thought I was closed-minded or lame. I didn't take their reaction to me personally; I knew they just didn't know any better and went about showing them how different I was.

I'm not the atheist I expected I would be. I don't rob banks or sacrifice babies to nature. I don't suffer in pain and loneliness. I'm happier than I ever been because I can be congruent with my true self.

Now as an atheist, I consider it my personal ministry to be exactly who I am. All I can do is be myself in all my liveliness, satisfaction, and imperfection. Pretty much everyone I know knows my story and what I used to believe. They also know that I love babies and helping people, that I'm happy, and I have a good life. I met the man of my dreams After I stopped believing in god. I've done pretty well for myself and I'm thankful for the life I've made.

Like my christian self, I believe my witness can make a difference in the life of someone who might not know any better. Maybe you can show your own compassion and dignity by treating those people with the humanity I hope you value.
posted by mynameismandab at 8:18 PM on February 12

The problem is not the arguement. Atheism is the world's most easy position to defend. The problem is that I don't want the arguement because it makes me feel rejected and I need a better way of dealing with it than dogged debate.

"I don't discuss religion."
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 8:22 PM on February 12 [1 favorite]

How about "Well, if belief in eternal damnation is keeping you from being a creepy perverted immoral monster, I certainly won't try to change you."
posted by hexatron at 8:35 PM on February 12 [4 favorites]

'God made me an atheist, He wonders why you would doubt His creation and why you don't use this opportunity to practice His teachings of tolerance and love.'
posted by Kensational at 8:37 PM on February 12 [3 favorites]

The problem is not the arguement. Atheism is the world's most easy position to defend. The problem is that I don't want the arguement because it makes me feel rejected and I need a better way of dealing with it than dogged debate.

"I don't discuss religion." posted by DevilsAdvocate at 8:22 PM on February 12 [+] [!]

Jeez, don't get sucked into the argument. What you believe or don't is none of their fucking business. And the converse is also true. Change the conversation to the weather.
posted by unSane at 8:17 PM on February 12 [+] [!]

Phalene, I'm atheist and somewhat sensitive to others' opinions of me, yet I've never had this type of problem, probably because I seldom if ever would discuss religion with anyone but a good and tolerant friend.

Believe me, I do not want to be "blaming the victim," but it seems you must have taken some kind of action to make yourself the center of attention for the believers around you in the way you've described.

Take a step back, look at your past arguments, and see if there hasn't been some way you could have avoided them. And best of luck to you.
posted by JimN2TAW at 8:40 PM on February 12

Citing Dawkins, using any of his or Hitchens' arguments, or asking them "why they believe in magic" will only solidify their belief that all atheists are arrogant jerks. If you are worried about giving people the impression that atheists are arrogant, an appeal to Dawkins is not a fantastic idea.

I don't want to get on a tangent, but please, there's nothing wrong with using an argument from Dawkins or Hitchens or anyone else if you think it's a solid argument. If people dismiss Dawkins or atheists generally on the basis of perceived arrogance, they are simply misinformed.

That's not to say that getting into an argument is always the right choice or the best way to change someone's mind, but it has its place and you shouldn't be ashamed or afraid of being seen as arrogant.
posted by ludwig_van at 8:40 PM on February 12 [1 favorite]

I would probably just say something like "I am just as sure of my belief as you are of yours" and/or "Though we disagree, I would never judge you based solely on your religious convictions, so please don't judge me based on mine." Any sort of long-winded explanation, argument, or snarky one-liner is just going to make matters worse.

I also like the way Katharine Hepburn put it: "I'm an atheist, and that's it. I believe there's nothing we can know except that we should be kind to each other and do what we can for each other."
posted by Metroid Baby at 8:44 PM on February 12 [1 favorite]

It sounds to me like you're troubled about something, because the various examples you give aren't all regarding the same problem. I'm also atheistic, as is my whole family, and it would never bother me if someone argued for "the other side" - in fact, when i was in college I used to love getting into debates about it.

Regarding the professor, I think it's possible you should try to understand what he's saying. It took me a fair amount of study to get the notion of "god" that a lot of theologians are touting, and it really is not the same one as the average man-on-the-street's idea of a guy with a beard in the sky. On a deeper philosophical level, I have slowly shifted to a more agnostic position about exactly what the source of the universe is, whether it is unified & rational. That is really what is meant by the idea of "god" - is there something which "guides" the world, or is the world random and absurd? Could the laws of physics just be different tomorrow, or the amount of energy in the world just fluctuate for no reason? etc. (as discussed here)

Regarding morality, if you mean practical morality, the majority of philosophical systems of morality are not based on god to begin with (utilitarianism, virtue ethics, sentimentalism, deontological ethics) and in fact even within the theological tradition there is disagreement as to whether "the good" is good because god says so, or whether it is good in itself and god says so because he has knowledge. If the latter, then morality would still not require god, even according to people for whom god lays down rules - he would merely be a good advisor due to his having better knowledge than others.

And, of course, where this advice is dispensed is not clear - if it's the bible, then there are problems of translation, interpretation and most important, "what counts", as most contemporary believers no longer follow the majority of old testament rules. If it's some sort of inner knowledge supposedly provided by god, then we're on even more shaky ground, and there's no evidence it's supplied in any greater percentage to believers than non-believers. (Even if there were, that could be attributed to social causes like attending sunday school, but that's another story).

Basically, it seems to me you're addressing multiple different angles of this all at once, and taking insignificant comments more seriously than you need to. If you don't believe in god, and someone says, "you believe in god, right?", you can just say, "no." Like if they say, "hey, you're a Steelers fan, right?" you can say, yeah, or, no, I like the Packers, or, actually I dont really like football, or, I don't watch sports. Whatever the case is, they're the ones who brought it up, so as long as you're basically friendly, they can't blame you for not being another fan of their chosen franchise, or even of their chosen framework.
posted by mdn at 8:44 PM on February 12 [2 favorites]

"The problem is not the arguement. Atheism is the world's most easy position to defend. The problem is that I don't want the arguement because it makes me feel rejected and I need a better way of dealing with it than dogged debate."

You've identified the crux of the matter. Don't bother asking questions, trying to convince them, make snarky remarks, etc. This will only set you up for insanely boring long conversations in which someone wants to argue or, worse, save you. Just deflect by saying, "Whatever," in appropriate language to the situation and not engaging them. (This can run the gamut from "We'll have to agree to disagree" to "Fuck off".) If you're in a school/professional setting, change the subject back ("So, what were you saying about Spinoza?").

The arguments are making you feel bad because you're letting them define the subject's value. Consider the god/religion talk to be about whether you like mayonnaise on your sandwiches. (I do not.) Someone who loves mayonnaise on sandwiches arguing about why another should love it too is rather silly, huh?
posted by sfkiddo at 8:45 PM on February 12

@Ludwig Van, I read The God Delusion. I can see why it would make an insecure religious person ranty in what is supposed to be a logic class, hence why when I confronted the prof and he scaled back to Dawkins from 'All Atheists Are Arrogant'. Dawkins can defend himself better than I can defend Dawkins.

@The Hive Mind In General
My problem is that I'm non-confrontational. I didn't -want- to have to talk to the prof after class about anything but the subject of his Phd. I don't want to tell a childhood friend that no, I'm not a believer even if I can understand why she broke up with her atheist boyfriend. I don't want to confuse my sweet but naive Muslim friend by having to tell her that even if I understand Christian rhetoric enough to help her puzzle out a historical document, I don't believe in a god.

I wanted to compliment my work friend on her tattoo, not discover she had a bias against the non-believer. Even topics that I think are perfectly innocent in conversation are midfields. I’m not looking for zingers, I just want to know how I can stop feeling like I’ve been clubbed.
posted by Phalene at 8:49 PM on February 12

The same way believers deal with atheists who want to argue that their strongly held beliefs are irrational? Except, do it without the snark and "LOLZ! SKYBEARD!", please...

Sometimes, you might just have to agree to disagree. Regardless of how strong or insistent the belief on either side of the argument, it's hardly a good basis for formulating a dislike, is it? On the other hand, if they're an arsehole about it, then their arseholeness is a good reason ;-)

‘just have to believe in something’ - that's kinda true though, isn't it? Rabid proselytising atheism is just as much (& strong) a belief as rabid proselytising <insert religion here>, which makes it equally as ridiculous.

(So say I, an agnostic, who doesn't much care either way and is thoroughly sick of the intolerance shown far to often by either side of those debates. It shouldn't be the belief that feeds dislike; it should be their attitude about it...)
posted by Pinback at 8:51 PM on February 12

How do you deal with the awkward un-comfortableness and sense of betrayal

By letting them be the people who are thinking that.
posted by Ironmouth at 8:54 PM on February 12

but it hurts my feelings

you need to grow up and start making allowances for people being people, ie. idiots.
posted by panamax at 9:01 PM on February 12 [1 favorite]

Just lie! "Sure, God, excellent, you bet." What's it to you? You already know that they're gullible and not rigorously rational; you like them anyway or would like to get along pleasantly with them for whatever reason, but you're not interested in defending atheism or in proselytizing. So just vaguely affirm their assumption that everyone they know is a believer, and let it pass.
posted by nicwolff at 9:07 PM on February 12

Phalene, you last comment just made me realize that I didn't put this in the context of Asperger's (which I know nothing personally about besides what I've read and a friend's experience). Could you be in a "full disclosure" mindset?

"I don't want to tell a childhood friend that no, I'm not a believer even if I can understand why she broke up with her atheist boyfriend." So don't: be a friend and let her talk about her break-up with her boyfriend. Just because he is an atheist doesn't mean you have to talk about how you are as well. Also, talking about something that you share with her ex may be interpreted as you being on his side.

"I don't want to confuse my sweet but naive Muslim friend by having to tell her that even if I understand Christian rhetoric enough to help her puzzle out a historical document, I don't believe in a god." So don't: help her with her assignment/confusion. If I didn't understand Kafka's Metamorphises, you could explain it to me without having to state that you don't think someone could wake up one day as a cockroach, right?

Sorry if this is simplistic, but it sounds like you think you need to talk about being an atheist when you don't.
posted by sfkiddo at 9:09 PM on February 12 [1 favorite]

you need to grow up and start making allowances for people being people, ie. idiots.

This is absolutely correct. The world is full of idiots, a great many of whom are religious people who are convinced that anyone who doesn't share their beliefs is doooomed, etc. But remember, also, that a worldview that has at its core the belief that the vast majority of 'other' people in the world are idiots or delusional because they disagree with that worldview is, frankly, arrogant, even if it happens to be true.

It may be helpful to turn the question around. What if I, a non-atheist, were to pose the question of how I should deal with atheists when they, with nothing but good (if arrogant) intentions, belittle me and my religious beliefs and insinuate that I am weak-minded, insecure, an idiot, "gullible and not rigorously rational," or even harmful to civilization because of my beliefs? I think that the answer to that question would be that I should agree to disagree, not engage in arguments with them, and politely decline to discuss the topic. Unfortunately, I am quite interested in the various arguments and views of atheists, and I have a very, very hard time not discussing atheism with atheists. The best that I ever seem to do is to refrain from trying to convince them in any way that my beliefs are correct. Maybe that can be a good starting point for you.
posted by The World Famous at 9:11 PM on February 12

“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”

--Stephen Roberts


I was hanging out with some coworkers (outside of work) and one insisted on talking to me about my being agnostic. I politely told him I didn't want to talk about it (why ruin a fun time playing video games?) He kept badgering me and I told him that I didn't believe in Buddha, Allah or Zeus either. Then he told me that I was just going through a phase. I was pretty pissed off, but instead of getting into a yelling match I very pointedly said "right, a four year phase. Okay, so who wants the next turn...?"

Sometimes it is all you can do to keep your cool. I have started to attend meeting of my local Center for Inquiry and it REALLY helps my morale, especially living in West Michigan where there is a Church on every corner (sometimes two).
posted by silkygreenbelly at 9:16 PM on February 12 [3 favorites]

How can I handle irrational arguments like ‘You need god to be moral’?

If you're in a particularly jerky mood, the following is always fun:

"If the only thing keeping you from raping, stealing and murdering is that you're afraid of getting sent to hell, then (A) there's something seriously wrong with you, and (B) I'm very glad that you're religious. But don't assume the rest of us are barely-restrained psychopaths just because you are."
posted by Flunkie at 9:25 PM on February 12

No sfkiddo, this isn't an Aspie misunderstanding.

Both recently broken up friend and Muslim friend asked me flat out if I believed in some form of god. They both know me well enough that they're aware I'm not quite from the normal spectrum of monotheism, and used me as an example that every worthwhile human being shares the belief, not just them, in God. In both cases I lied like a rug, as Nicwolff advised, leaving me feeling like a lesbian agreeing that every sane woman is straight.
posted by Phalene at 9:26 PM on February 12

Therapy so I won’t feel so insecure?

Ding!

If you get caught up worrying about all the wrong headed people in the world you're never going to get anything done.
posted by tkolar at 9:30 PM on February 12

The same way believers deal with atheists who want to argue that their strongly held beliefs are irrational?

This nails it. No matter what you believe (in one religion or another, in atheism, in L Ron Hubbard, whatever), you are going to constantly be around people who either mildly disagree or who radically disagree. The only way you can avoid this is by going and living in a cloistered or separatist community (for Catholics it is called a monastery, hippies call it a commune, and so on) where everyone agrees on these fundamentals.

Otherwise, you will be meeting people every day for the rest of your life who disagree with you about these basic issues, and many of them will not be respectful or kind about it.

You deal with it by shrugging and moving on, by not taking it personally, by not making an issue of it. Honestly, the vast majority of people I know -- friends, colleagues at work, even extended family members -- have no idea what my religious beliefs might or might not be. Why? Because as a general rule I don't talk about it. For me, these are private issues, and while I am happy to nod and smile if they want to tell me about their beliefs, I change the subject when asked about mine. It's just not their business, and neither do I need to take their beliefs personally.

LobsterMitten is totally correct about how to handle the class situation -- getting an F over this is cutting off your nose to spite your face. Don't be confrontational with the professor directly, but do communicate the issue with someone appropriate.
posted by Forktine at 9:30 PM on February 12 [1 favorite]

When i was younger I used to get into a philosophical fight with people who did this. And I would win. However, it was stupid and pointless of me. It never changed anyone's mind and the other person was just angry and confused.

Now, (unless I really can't stand a person and feel like letting them have it, which happens virtually never) I either just kind of lie. As in I say, well I was raised Episcopalian... And I like Episcopalians in general, so I don't mind being associated with them. If someone realizes I'm dodging the question, and doesn't politely decline to pursue further, I launch into a thing about how I'm an atheist/agnostic (hey I can't prove conclusively there is a god, I just find it unlikely, I put the odds at about 1 in 4) and then go on to say how I have no ill will towards being raised Episcopalian and that I have a lot of respect for all religion, you think it adds a lot to some people's lives (just not yours), live and let lie, kaysora, sora, and then we get our group hug on, but no really, once you start going off about how much you respect other religions and your own personal manifesto on tolerance and the magic of diversity, most people aren't left with much to say. Sometimes for good measure I'll throw in a story about going to a Buddhist temple and really feeling at peace or going to see the Sistine Chapel and really feeling that sense of wonder. It's good if you sound really passionate while you're saying it too and feel free to ramble on for a few minutes, most people have no idea how to respond or forgot what they were going to say in the first place at this point. And then they never ever bring it up again.
posted by whoaali at 9:37 PM on February 12 [1 favorite]

used me as an example that every worthwhile human being shares the belief, not just them, in God. In both cases I lied like a rug, as Nicwolff advised, leaving me feeling like a lesbian agreeing that every sane woman is straight.

If you feel dirty about lying, then don't.

If they they want to argue religion, tell them you're not interested in discussing it. If they persist in trying to convert you, walk away - they're not a friend worth having if they can't accept you for who you are.
posted by chrisamiller at 9:39 PM on February 12

1. Don't feel you're alone in being an Atheist. There are plenty around, especially among intelligent, educated crowds, including, I suspect, your university. (And Nthing that the prof is an asshat.)

2. Hang out with people who aren't so self-righteous. Go to a Unitarian-Universalist church (they welcome a wide spectrum of beliefs, including atheism). Look for a support group.

3. It's your choice whether you want to debate others, artfully drone on about religion, tell them to fuck off, change the conversation, or just shrug your shoulders and walk away. There's no right approach.

4. It's nobody's friggin' business what your religious beliefs are. This is especially true at work, where religion is not considered a good topic of conversation.

5. The term "atheist" has gotten a bad rap. The public irrationally fears and hates atheists. (A recent U.S. poll showed that fewer voters would vote for an atheist for president than any other group in the poll.) So maybe calling yourself an atheist isn't in your best interest — try softening your approach. "Agnostic" isn't so fraught with bad connotations. You might consider calling yourself "non-religious" or saying you don't believe in any particular religion. Or call yourself a "humanist," a perfectly respectable tradition, especially around the university (although you might avoid "secular humanist," since that's despised by the religious right.) Or say you're "indifferent" or "apatheistic."

6. And yes, people who equate morality with religion are ignorant or shallow or have led a sheltered life in the comfort of their particular church. That's their problem. You can just be a living example of a person who leads a moral life and isn't particularly religious.
posted by exphysicist345 at 9:43 PM on February 12 [1 favorite]

Also, I'm of the belief that as a minority, atheists kind of have a duty to stand up for ourselves and our beliefs in most situations. An apt comparison is the gay and lesbian struggle. Most atheists are 'in the closet' which is why many people are surprised when they meet one, and rude to those they're aware of.

If we start standing up for ourselves and make it known that: we're here, we're normal, we're not stupid, and we're not going to be converted, then people might stop reacting negatively to us in the future. So we owe it not to ourselves, but to the next generation of atheists, so that they don't have to be embarassed as you are.
posted by chrisamiller at 9:44 PM on February 12

I understand being nonconfrontational. But your professor did something wrong, and you're going to let yourself be penalized (by skipping class) because of it -- that's taking non-confrontational to an extreme! It would be good if you could bring yourself to do something about it. (Possibly you could at least drop the class, rather than waiting and getting a very low mark? Leave an anonymous note in the dept chair's box explaining what happened in class? If the professor is making disparaging remarks about a group based on their religious beliefs, the chair should know so he/she can tell the prof to stop it.)

About the hurt feelings from a friend's intolerant attitude: I'm sorry. There isn't a lot to be done about people who firmly believe that atheists are bad, and it sucks to have that come up in a good friendship. I know it can be a real problem, and I wish I had a better solution for you.

BUT bear in mind that many people -- especially many very-religious people in their late teens/early 20s -- are sheltered. They have not had wide experience. They have stereotypes about atheists without ever really knowing anyone who was (or, who bothered to tell them that they were) an atheist. So for some people all it takes is to say "you know, I'm an atheist, and I'm perfectly moral and caring and so on. So in practical terms it isn't that big a difference between us." and then they can gradually realize that their stereotype is wrong. So sometimes being kind and patient etc can change their minds, and your friendship can be affirmed rather than hurt.
posted by LobsterMitten at 10:02 PM on February 12 [1 favorite]

Theist: You're atheist, you have no morals.

Me (atheist): Good. Now fuck off.
posted by BeaverTerror at 10:11 PM on February 12

AN atheist. Dropped a word.
posted by BeaverTerror at 10:13 PM on February 12

"So, which is it? Does religion teach you to be condescending or arrogant? Because, as I recall one of the basic tenets of your faith is to be compassionate and humble, which, as far as I can tell, you're sorely lacking. Perhaps it's time to repent or at least learn to be polite. After all, I'm not treating you as if you were indoctrinated into a cult by your parents, am I?
posted by filmgeek at 10:53 PM on February 12

How can I handle irrational arguments like ‘You need god to be moral’? I don’t like being called immoral. I have morals because I have empathy.

I understand this 100% and usually say something like "I don't need anything besides myself to be moral. I'm a compassionate and caring individual and I've defined my own boundaries and behaviour. It's cool that you've looked elsewhere for guidance, but I don't need to do that".

The rest of the comment I was going to make is better said by LobsterMitten.

And remember: don't feed the trolls. They exist in real life too.
posted by saturnine at 11:47 PM on February 12

As to the question, "How can you have morals without a God?" here's your answer.
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 11:58 PM on February 12

I am an atheist. I choose not to argue about it any more, or even disclose it because yep, it can open you up to both argument, mockery and attempts at conversion. Don't participate in religious conversations, just don't open your mouth and let other people discuss whatever they need to discuss with each other. If a friend asks, you can answer "That's pretty private, I don't discuss religion." If they insist, feel free to say, "I'm upset that you're pushing me on this topic when I already told you it's private and I won't discuss it. I feel like you're disregarding my feelings." Any continuation of the topic and feel free to leave. You're not obliged to explain your religious views to anyone.

When other people show me their intolerance for atheists, I am silently grateful, because they've just demonstrated their arseholishness and I don't have to even wonder if I want to get to know them better. When professors (and I'm a student too) display an annoying characteristic, (whether it's intolerance or silliness), I just look at it as another hurdle, another hoop to jump through. It's not personal. You can take it up with your Equity Office or other appropriate body, if you want, and they should treat it anonymously, but hey, is it worth it to you?

The main thing is, you don't have to engage. This is a really useful technique to learn for all sorts of things, sales staff, nosey neighbours, chatty cow-orkers. Don't engage. Don't discuss. Don't volunteer. Let the militant atheists do the protesting, they like it.
posted by b33j at 12:05 AM on February 13 [2 favorites]

You've got to suck it up.

You know what you believe, and you don't want to get into any fights about it. If the conversation becomes awkward, and you're not at risk of humiliating anyone, you can say "I do not believe that, and I'd rather we didn't discuss it."

Otherwise, you've just got to get on and ignore the comments.
posted by seanyboy at 12:10 AM on February 13

Also, there is a specific strategy I use to avoid these kinds of conversations; some of this might work for you.

When someone bluntly asks, "so do you believe in God?", I shrug and say something like "lots of people in my family are [name a religion], but I'm not really religious" and then quickly moving the conversation along. If someone says something that makes you uncomfortable (such as "don't you agree that all atheists are immoral jerks?"), again, you can shrug and say something like "man, what a complicated question. Anyway, where did you get that shirt? It is really beautiful" and move that conversation right along.

Basically, just because someone asks a question does not oblige you to answer it. No need to be rude and say "fuck you, I'm not answering that!" but there is nothing impolite at all about sidestepping intrusive questions. If the other person can't supply the good manners, you may as well do the job.

I remember these questions coming up a lot more when I was younger, especially in college -- I think it is because everyone around you is trying to figure these things out for themselves, and one way they do it is by taking on an identity ("observant muslim," "outrageous atheist," "politically-concerned Catholic") and using these kinds of conversations to test how well that identity works. In other words, it is about them, not you. But even so, if you don't want to be part of their identity formation, there are socially-appropriate ways to decline to take part.

(And listen to LobsterMitten -- don't fail that class by not showing up.)
posted by Forktine at 4:34 AM on February 13 [2 favorites]

One thing you have to remember is that you would probably have your position attacked by tactless people no matter what religion/faith you were. I'm Catholic, and I've just come to accept that some people are going to be jerks that make "omg you rape baybeeeezz" comments and think less of me because I believe in "magic". You just have to write them off like you would any other kind of jerk. I second the people above that suggest politely changing the subject and refusing to talk about it. As for the professor, you should really talk to the student affairs office.

On another note, I think we go to the same university, and I've had a different experience than you. Most of the people I've known well enough to discuss faith have been atheist/agnostic/non-practicing, so you're definitely not alone.
posted by fermezporte at 6:19 AM on February 13

In both cases I lied like a rug, as Nicwolff advised, leaving me feeling like a lesbian agreeing that every sane woman is straight.

I think this comparison is apt, because the truth is that many people do have the idea that atheism (or homosexuality) is wrong and different and that atheists and lesbians aren't like them. This is where your discomfort lies. You can't fix that in one brief conversation, and certainly not in a non-confrontational way. All you can do is to realise that the world is like this and think about how to become accepting of that, even though it is not ideal. I am also an atheist, and I used to be Christian, so I try to deal with this by remembering why I thought that way when I was a Christian. If I can recognize myself as someone who is also able to fail in that way (and has), it is easier to deal with in others.

As for what to do in each individual conversation, I think we just do a brief cost-benefit analysis, like lesbians also need to do. Is the discomfort of confronting them and 'coming out' higher than the discomfort of lying and letting them think we're on their side? Then confront. If not, don't. Do what you are comfortable with. Don't feel obliged either way.

All you are in control of is your side of the conversation, and your private understanding of this part of our culture. You can let it bother you, or you can incorporate it into your world and deal with it as you see fit. Some people choose to go on a rampage about it (Dawkins, gay activists, civil right leaders, etc.), and others quietly go about their business. Both reactions have their place. It sounds like you will be more comfortable going quietly about your business, and that is a perfectly acceptable choice.
posted by heatherann at 7:08 AM on February 13

Usually when someone wants to "discuss" religion with me, I take that as a sign that the conversation is waning and that they're grasping at straws. I have been known for responding with blank stares when someone wants to go that way. For me, belief is a very private, personal matter and when someone wants to get into it with me, I react the same way as if someone asked me "how much money do you make?" If the person is persistent I make it very clear that religion/belief is NOT on the table for discussion and move on. I let the guys in tweed jackets with elbow patches and pipes do all the heavy lifting.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 7:41 AM on February 13

My advice would be don't bother talking about religion with people. At all.

What do you have to gain from talking to someone about religion? They've already decided that they believe in a completely unknown and unprovable deity that exists beyond the scope of human observation and understanding. You might as well go down to the pediatric ward and start debating with toddlers about Santa. They'll think you're a jerk too.

See my point? No good ever comes from treading on peoples dreams, no matter how foolish or ill conceived they are.
posted by JFitzpatrick at 8:19 AM on February 13

When I was in college I used to get into these arguments all the time, and because I'm a debating type, I loved it - I would even sort of seek out chances to have it out (like the people handing pamphlets out in the subway, etc). I thought older folks who said that one shouldn't talk about religion or politics in polite company were missing out on the best conversations and shutting off their own access to the truth. But over the years I realized the discussions didn't really change much, plenty of feelings got hurt, and I really hadn't grasped what respect was.

Now I basically avoid these topics, except when it really seems to be a direct, non-judgmental question, and then I just try to be honest but respectful in return. If someone were to say something along the lines of "it's impossible to be a good person without religion" I'd probably try to softly deflect, ie, "well, I dunno that that's true, but anyway, so your pastor is really helping you through this?"

If someone were to ask me in a judgmental tone why I don't believe in god, I would just shrug and say we didn't have to talk about it. Or give a quick answer - I was brought up without religion, philosophy is my religion, it's just not my thing, etc. Religion is partly a social thing, so believers sometimes like to be around other believers to be assured of their faith.

With close friends or boyfriends/girlfriends, this is a deeper issue, and it is possible that you will need to find more of "your own crowd" - people who you relate to more. There are plenty of people in the world who are not religious. Maybe you should consider transferring schools or talking to people on the other side of campus or whatever - I'm surprised, especially in college, that you are so surrounded by the devout.
posted by mdn at 8:45 AM on February 13

In a friendly, jokey tone, "You think I'm immoral; I think you're insane! So it kinda evens out... Viva la difference!"
posted by LordSludge at 10:03 AM on February 13

My personal philosophy is that religion is just a way for stupid people to give their lives meaning, and who cares what stupid people think? That might sound harsh, but I just let people blather on about their religious mumbo-jumbo, and since they usually don't want any argument or anything I can basically get by with the occasional "mmhmm." Really, their beliefs are a machine, a very simple machine, so just be aware of that and let them spin their cogs. Nothing I say will change them.
posted by rhizome at 10:13 AM on February 13

You have no morals, yada yada...

The first time I heard that one, my response was :
"Wow. That's the most insulting thing I've heard all week."

On reflection I came up with:
"You apparently don't even believe that yourself.
If you really thought I was totally amoral, you probably wouldn't insult me.
You apparently know that we share at least enough morals that I won't punch you in the face."

You can cap it with "Typical christian hypocrite." if you're feeling spiteful.
posted by Orb2069 at 12:53 PM on February 13

They both know me well enough that they're aware I'm not quite from the normal spectrum of monotheism, and used me as an example that every worthwhile human being shares the belief, not just them, in God.

So neither you nor your friends are completely comfortable in your beliefs. These comments are either made craving your validation or just as a bonding "us versus them" type of thing. You need to be confident enough to assert that no, while there is an "us" in this situation, that you are not bound together by religion but by other commonalities and your friendship. If they judge you or think of you differently because of your belief, then perhaps it's not a topic they should throw around so casually.
posted by mikeh at 1:09 PM on February 13

Both recently broken up friend and Muslim friend asked me flat out if I believed in some form of god. They both know me well enough that they're aware I'm not quite from the normal spectrum of monotheism, and used me as an example that every worthwhile human being shares the belief, not just them, in God. In both cases I lied like a rug, as Nicwolff advised, leaving me feeling like a lesbian agreeing that every sane woman is straight.

You need to examine your religious convictions or lack thereof and how they relate to your friendships. It was your friends who brought up the subject; your friends who decided to confront you about it; your friends who decided to exploit you in a self-centered theological argument; and your friends who you assume will get offended if you come out as an atheist to them. Those are pretty strong indications that your friends are the problem here, not you, and you can't do anything about it. You can't try being non-confrontational about it; when someone insists on confronting you about an issue and you lie in reply, that's not being accommodating, that's being spineless.

Make it clear to your friends that what they are doing is immoral, and move on.
posted by azazello at 1:40 PM on February 13

I don't want the arguement because it makes me feel rejected and I need a better way of dealing with it than dogged debate.

This suggestion is from left field, but have you considered taking some assertiveness training? You describe yourself as non-confrontrational, and you seem like a sweet and caring person. But if you get your feelings hurt and feel scared and isolated when someone questions or disagrees with your beliefs, how are you going handle things later in life if you ever break-up with an SO or get a divorce? What would you do if you ever get fired from a job?

Life can throw so many disagreeable and unpleasant things at us. We need to toughen up enough to recognize when to stand up for ourselves and when to let things go, and to realize that our sense of self-worth can rely on stronger grounds than other peoples' approval.
posted by Robert Angelo at 2:09 PM on February 13

It's not hard to get ammunition to argue the point, but if you don't have the ammunition or really just couldn't be bothered then try and avoid the argument. The argument presented by Steven C is a good short way to point out the flaw in the idea that you need religion to have morality. Perhaps someone could point out which philosopher posed the argument.

Or you could tell them you were molested by priests. Or ask them which law Jesus suggested we follow, "god's" law or secular law. If the answer is "god's" law, and they are christian, ask them to recite the 630 odd laws in leviticus.
posted by Tixylix at 3:52 PM on February 13

If the answer is "god's" law, and they are christian, ask them to recite the 630 odd laws in leviticus.

And then they can ask you to recite all of the secular laws in your jurisdiction. Seriously, don't start that dumb argument, particularly if arguments where everyone ends up mad at each other are what you're trying to avoid.
posted by The World Famous at 4:23 PM on February 13

The poster is not asking for snappy comebacks.
posted by LobsterMitten at 4:34 PM on February 13

Exactly.
posted by The World Famous at 4:38 PM on February 13

Tixylix, the argument Steven describes in the page he linked to is from Plato's dialogue with Euthyphro; Bertrand Russell summarized it as "Theologians have always taught that God's decrees are good, and that this is not a mere tautology; it follows that goodness is logically independent of God's decrees." It is often adduced as a refutation of Kant's "Moral Argument", which boils down to "You need God to be moral."
posted by nicwolff at 6:04 PM on February 13

Well I did mention that he could try and avoid the argument. But really, if someone spits "you cannot have morality without religion" at me, well, they might have well have punched me in the face. It is offensive and I am offended. I disagree with Phalene where he states that such a comment is never made with malice intended. He even mentions the disdain in his professor's voice so... Furthermore, he has asked how should "I" deal with it, as well as how do "you" deal with it. I've given advice for the former and an example of the latter.

Personally, I like to turn into a troll from time to time. I don't think Phalene does, hence "try and avoid the argument". Secular laws? don't change the subject we are talking about the religious foundation of morality... and so on. Yes, those arguments do go around in circles for hours.

Thankyou nicwolff, thought I'd read it before but I am not intimately familiar with philosophers and... stuff.
posted by Tixylix at 6:49 PM on February 13

Phalene is a she...

I guess the common consent is that I need to work on toughening my skin. The truth is I hate religious arguments because they feel pointless, as I'm an atheist because I can't manifest the inertia to care about magic in a serious fashion. Arguing about religion feels to me, like arguing about someone else's boyfriend: you go around in circles and they get mad at you for deciding to use you as a sounding board. Which is not to say I eschew debate all together; I'm taking logic because I want to form better arguments.

I think part of my problem is living in a religious part of Canada, as there are a disproportionate number of the sort of Christians who believe in 'saving' versus the sort who seem to be like say, my paternal grandfather, who really, really believes and loves me for who I am. Being in university doesn't help, as this is when people seem to be doing the identity-questioning thing that makes them ask awkward questions.

Robert Angelo's concern that I may be less than assertive enough for my own good has a sound basis, but I must reassure him that between being fired, dumped and dumping, I tend not to take it personally after the first few days because terminating a relationship is not the same as say... Discovering a friend holds your lack of theist interest in contempt. Ex-boyfriends and ex-employers are easy to cut off when it comes to caring about how they feel about you, as compared with people you're trying to connect with.

But ranty prof is a known windbag, so yes I am over reacting. I think I’ll do the vindictive student thing and maintain my interest in class by documenting all the logical fallacies he uses over the course of his lecture, so I won’t feel as demeaned. And I guess I’ll ask the hivemind on tips on how to be more assertive next.
posted by Phalene at 10:58 PM on February 13

Act completely ignorant, but ask lots of logical questions, and eventually you'll have them second-guessing themselves. The Socratic way!
posted by brandnew at 4:09 AM on February 14

I've found it's hard to have a logic fight with a religious person since they know more about their religion than you. It's like me arguing about the best NASCAR driver when I know very little about the sport. I ignore other people's comments like the other posters and avoid the subject whenever I can. I was scorned by a co-worker once because I believed that dinosaurs existed!

If I feel a comment is necessary, I tell them I "don't do religion" and make it sound like a choice. Many/most of us inherited our beliefs because of our parents and never second guessed it. Have you ever met a 7-year old who decided to convert to a different religion? No, they just believe the what their parents and church tell them and carry it forward. They never "shopped" for a religion or one that fits their personal beliefs better.

I think some thicker skin will help and realize that everyone has a favorite team/sport/religion they feel passionate about. Find some NY Yankee fans and their belief in their team may eclipse their religious ones. Your list of passions and hobbies just doesn't include religion.
Good luck.
posted by rholly at 11:16 PM on February 14

If somebody asks you "Do you believe in God?" -- just ask them exactly what they mean by "God". I know it's a tired cliche, but are they talking about an old man with a beard who lives in outer space? Ask them. If they say "No", then ask them if they're talking about some kind of guiding force in the universe. If thats the case, ask them if the universe could potentially run without any guiding force, or perhaps the universe guides itself -- and so on.

Make them define every inch of their belief. As soon as they settle on something concrete, expose the weakness inherent in their answer. One of the main debating tactics that religious folk use is to play fast and loose with definitions so that you can never nail them down to something concrete. Don't let them do that.
posted by Avenger at 11:29 AM on February 16

I'm an American and was living abroad during 9/11, the beginning of the war in Afghanistan, and the beginning of the war in Iraq. There was a lot of anti-American sentiment where I was living: someone spraypainted "YANKEE GO HOME" on the building across from my apartment, and people would sometimes make weird comments about America in my presence, or confide in me that they secretly hated Americans, or whatever.

I didn't take that personally because I felt that the set of values these people had attached to AMERICAN/YANKEE in their heads had more to do with Halliburton/Disney than with me. I got along fine: people liked me, and I shared many of my neighbors' values and hopes.

Similarly, you're not the atheist people are thinking of. People have a zone in their head marked ATHEIST and a bunch of half-formed stuff is floating around in there, like "half of a radio interview I heard with Richard Dawkins last year" and "things my childhood minister said about unbelievers" and etc.

When I would talk to people about politics in those years, I never pretended to be Canadian or whatever. I'd say "I'm an American and I agree with you about these points of foreign policy," and people would experience a moment of cognitive dissonance b/c I didn't fit their stereotype, but they recovered, and I think we were better off for it.

So: you shouldn't be in the closet. If someone says something about atheists, or asks if you are one, say "I don't believe in God, but I respect people who do! Have you ever met an atheist before?" and smile. At that point, nice, thoughtful people will have two choices: 1) refurbish their concept of what an atheist is like ("man, Christopher Hitchens is a jerk! But Phalene seems so intelligent, humble, and ethical! HOW CAN THIS BE??? MAYBE MY IDEA OF ATHEISTS AS A BLOOD-SUCKING MONOLITH OF BABY KILLERS IS A LITTLE OFF BASE") or 2) ostracize you. I suspect most people will choose the former.

Good luck!
posted by hungrytiger at 2:05 AM on February 19