Comments on: I still can't work out the point of meditation

Question: I still can't work out the point of meditation

stenoboy — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 03:15:22 -0800

Meditation - what is the point exactly?

I've been meditating on and off for about 18 months now doing mostly Zazen meditation, just observing my breaths. I've tried awareness meditations, and walking meditation. When I come back to it after some time off, I think it's the best thing ever, but when I do it consistently, I find I get bored and always feel I could be doing something more productive.

Which brings me to the question: other than the much-touted stress relief, what's the actual point of meditation? It seems a waste of time to just sit there and watch my breaths and not engage with my thoughts.

I don't mean to sound facetious with these questions, but after the initial benefits of feeling 'quieter' and mental clarity, I hit a wall as to the purpose of me sitting there for 45 minutes each doing nothing!

By: Malor

Malor — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 03:41:35 -0800

An approach I found that worked for me was speaking, aloud (that's important), the phrase "I am aware of..." and filling in the blank. Over and over. I think, if you do that for a couple of weeks during your regular practice, you'll see the point.

The problem is that it's a very hard thing to explain; if I put words on it, you'll attach your own meanings to the words I use, and you'll think you'll understand it. That will interfere with actually seeing it and understanding it for yourself. (I suspect it's a little different for everyone.)

In other words, I don't think anyone can tell you what the point is, just give you different approaches to seeing it for yourself.

By: bricoleur

bricoleur — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 04:00:47 -0800

The point is some kind of transcendence of the categories that usually define our perception and experience of the world. At some point in meditation (or at many small points) there is a shift of awareness such that consciousness steps back, as it were, from its usual container, the mind, and sees that the categories into which the mind parses the world are coming from the mind and not from "the world" (though "the world" is, in a sense, just a construct of the mind). Consciousness experiences itself in itself, in its own true nature, as free and forever unbound by categories of any kind.

By: jbickers

jbickers — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 04:06:20 -0800

The best explanation of "why meditation" I've ever heard was in a podcast, the series escapes me right now, but it was a monk who said: everybody has ups and downs in their life. The practice of meditation raises the baseline around which those ups and downs oscillate.

By: teleskiving

teleskiving — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 04:06:27 -0800

Have a look at Chapter 1 (why should I bother) and Chapter 16 (what's in it for me) from the online text of Mindfulness in Plain English.

By: Abiezer

Abiezer — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 04:07:23 -0800

Don't look for a point. You have hit the wall that Bodhidharma faced for nine years.

By: milarepa

milarepa — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 04:10:21 -0800

The purpose of meditation is to develop equanamity and single pointedness. With equanamity you are able to control your actions after you leave the cushion allowing you to act ethically at all times. It also allows you to begin deeper practices, like the exchange of self and others. Once you achieve equanamity, you will be able to accomplish single pointedness, at which point you can actually start meditating on stuff rather than just counting your breath. This single pointedness then allows you to reach deeper levels of wisdom. In general, most Buddhist traditions emphasize 3 main pursuits: ethical discipline, meditative concentration (equanamity & single pointedness) and wisdom. They all feed each other. They also all feed other pursuits, like the three principle paths and the other 6 paramitas.

While there is benefit to sitting in general and I don't think it's ever wasted, I don't think it's as valuable as it can be when you don't have a clear idea of why you are there doing what you're doing. If you don't have a clear idea of why you are there and don't have enthusiasm, then these sorts of thougts will always arise, and they arise afterwards too; but if you have enthusiasm, determination, devotion, etc, they are much easier to handle.

I highly suggest you read some books on the Lam Rim. They condense and organize all of the Buddhist teachings better than anything else I have ever seen. And prior to discovering them, I had little in interest in Buddhism despite having been raised one. Mefi mail me if you want some suggestions on good books on the Lam Rim.

By: Coventry

Coventry — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 04:19:13 -0800

Do you have a teacher? If not, you should find one. This kind of question is probably best addressed in person. Zen is a particularly difficult tradition to practice solo, in my experience. milarepa's suggestion to study a lamrim text is a good one. After years of dabbling with Zen meditation, I didn't really understand the point until I read Wake Up To Your Life, which is a lamrim text, roughly speaking.

By: ellF

ellF — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 04:22:45 -0800

There is no point - zazen is about practicing awareness, not "becoming" or "getting" anything. Zazen starves the ego, rather than catering to it or providing it with more layers to be cut through. There is no story to zazen, and you won't be anything but who you are as a result of its practice.

By: bindasj

bindasj — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 04:54:09 -0800

I reached the point your at now a while ago. I had been approaching my conclusions for a while and then when I finally went and stayed at a Zen monastery it all sort of fell apart. Everyone was there with all these different ideas "to reach enlightenment", "there is no point", "to destroy your ego" etc etc I'm sure you've heard them all by now. But I found no great gurus there or anything and really nothing that amazed me. I've also been questioning my whole purpose of doing it, yeah samsara (in this life) sucks like 50% of the time, but on the other hand I enjoy the other 50%. And you know what? I'm willing to take that 50% bad to have the 50% good and I'm sort of happy with what's going on. So I gave up. Occasionally I'll go back to it for that high, or when I'm having a tough time or because I feel this urge inside calling me to do it. But really I think I've learned meditations most valuable lesson, appreciate life.

By: 1

Tue, 05 Feb 2008 05:31:00 -0800

To learn to become a more mindful person.

By: toastchee

toastchee — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 05:50:29 -0800

Hmm. I hope that at some point during a meditation, you have reached the state where you can /tell/ your brain has indeed settled down and the 'monkey brain' has stopped jumping around from thought to thought.

For example, the other night I simply sat with my eyes closed and became aware of my brain's hectic activity and let it run its course. Usually after some time I can feel my thoughts settle and some space is cleared. I feel more peaceful. I actually gain some energy and feel less fatigued.

If you're having trouble, try not to actively intercede, just let thoughts be. Be aware that all day long your brain has successfully jumped from topic to topic, from person to person, and worry to worry. Simply by reflex it will continue to do so. Gently return your focus to your breathing.

I not an expert, just a guy who likes to meditate when I can remember to do so. I've been successfully attaining this state in my meditations for a long time, and have never progressed beyond this. However, it has done a world of good.

Namaste.

By: zennoshinjou

zennoshinjou — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 06:03:18 -0800

I think if you are focused on the point you will miss the point which some people above have mentioned. Rationalizing our actions is an activity of the ego, as long as you look for a reason you are still feeding it and focusing on it. As people have also said explaining it is kind of beside the point because you will focus too much on the rationale presented to you. Mindfulness or awareness is a goal; try to experience everything in the moment until your brain cant be aware anymore. It crowds out your thoughts and forces you to know the moment and live in it. This has been helpful for me.

By: hermitosis

hermitosis — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 06:34:31 -0800

Rather than this being about meditation, to me it sounds like it's more about your personal philosophy. What does it mean to "waste" something? Is it even possible? If so, is there anything wrong with that?

Once when I asked a friend about this or that being a waste of time, with grave seriousness he told me, "There is no such thing as a waste of time. If you can even conceive of the possibility of time being wasted, you wind up spending your life measuring everything against everything else, and no matter what you always feel like you are losing something. The kinds of things I'm trying to do can't happen if I'm doing that."

In other words, no worthwhile activity can consistently survives the "waste of time" test, causing us to create rationalizations all over the place. It's impossible to eat without creating vast amounts of waste, and yet we need to in order to survive. So keep doing the meditation you're doing, and think about what it would be like to live in a world where all time spent is time well-spent. Then go live in it!

By: Laugh_track

Laugh_track — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 06:41:02 -0800

Short answer: DO NOT WANT.

I do remember reading about Francisco Varela, who was dedicated to integration of Eastern and Western wisdom, shortly after he died. He studied Tibetan Buddhism for many years asking some of the same questions you are... I know I read about him having similar conflicts as you. I wish I had a link to back that up. Oh well. Interesting topic.

By: Ironmouth

Ironmouth — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 06:50:37 -0800

I started meditating about 1995, soon after I became a buddhist. I sat for 45 minutes a day, every single day, for 2 1/2 years.

One day I had to move to a new apartment across town. I got up and began moving around 8 a.m. About 2 p.m. I suddenly had a thought--I noticed the fact that I hadn't had a single conscious thought for 6 hours and for that entire time had been working on moving my stuff without a break. I really hadn't had a single conscious thought.

If you are a buddhist, you aren't meditating for any reason at all, however, and if you are seeking a reason, you'd best drop that idea. Although there may be benefits that accrue to you, you should not be actively seeking those benefits, because it will wreck the point of your practice.

If you are getting bored, you are having thoughts and you should be noticing those as well.

By: milarepa

milarepa — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 07:15:35 -0800

If you are a buddhist, you aren't meditating for any reason at all.

This is just not true. That is a distinctly Zen idea and does not apply to Buddhism across the board.

By: grumblebee

grumblebee — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 07:23:29 -0800

If you are a buddhist, you aren't meditating for any reason at all, however, and if you are seeking a reason, you'd best drop that idea.

I sort of understand this as "don't be so gaol oriented," but as someone who has tried and failed (and wants to try again) with meditation, such statements are tough for me to parse without me seeing them as nonsense. And I hear stuff like that all the time.

Here's my problem, if there's no reason for meditating, why meditate? I'm not saying that we should have reasons for everything we do. I'm saying that without reason, what we do is either forced or arbitrary, isn't it?

Sometimes I pick up a pencil an start doodling "for no reason." Why doodling? Because -- for whatever reason -- I happened to pick up the habit as a kid. It's pretty arbitrary. If I'd picked up the habit of juggling or playing with a yo-yo, I'd probably do that, instead. So out of all the activities in the world, what would make someone pick meditation if there's no reason for it?

Is it more true to say, "there IS a reason, but it can't be explained. You have to meditate to know it"? Or "there IS a reason, but it's different for each person"? Those statements, I can understand. What I can't understand is why someone would meditate (in particular) for no reason.

By: mediareport

mediareport — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 07:50:27 -0800

There might be some useful answers about benefits for creativity, if nothing else, in the recent "Can meditation help me become a better writer?" thread. Some folks find it can increase productivity in that realm, if productivity is your yardstick.

By: mediareport

mediareport — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 07:51:35 -0800

What I can't understand is why someone would meditate (in particular) for no reason.

The question assumes a health benefit. That's a pretty good reason.

By: Sparx

Sparx — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 07:59:59 -0800

Here's a good list of physical benefits of meditation. In some ways it's like going to the gym. It can be pretty dull and results aren't immediate, but it's definitely worthwhile, even devoid of an overtly spiritual component. Hunting through PubMed for 'meditation' is quite enlightening (arf arf)

By: Laugh_track

Laugh_track — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 08:01:19 -0800

Here's my problem, if there's no reason for meditating, why meditate?

This question is rhetorical. The existence of an answer is explicitly ruled out in the question.

So out of all the activities in the world, what would make someone pick meditation if there's no reason for it?

Who cares what people do?

I swear I'm not trying to snark, I'm just wondering what you're getting at. I imagine meditation is attractive because it represents an intellectual tradition with a lot of history.

By: thedanimal

thedanimal — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 08:09:08 -0800

To add to what's already been said, much of which I agree completely with:

They call it meditation practice because it is practicing for the rest of life. Sitting on the cushion or doing walking meditation is a concentrated form of awareness that should be applied and utilized as often as possible in the rest of your life.

By: Ironmouth

Ironmouth — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 08:10:00 -0800

By: Ironmouth

Ironmouth — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 08:12:57 -0800

Here's my problem, if there's no reason for meditating, why meditate? I'm not saying that we should have reasons for everything we do. I'm saying that without reason, what we do is either forced or arbitrary, isn't it?

Whose we? What is doing? What is arbitrary? What is a reason?

I'm serious with those questions. Asking them is at the heart of buddhism.

By: Rykey

Rykey — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 08:26:52 -0800

David Lynch's new book, Catching The Big Fish, is his take on how meditation, specifically TM, informs his creativity and his work. I found it to be fascinating.

By: Xurando

Xurando — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 08:31:21 -0800

This guy believes that you can achieve the same results through talking not just through sitting.

By: milarepa

milarepa — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 08:49:27 -0800

What I meant to say is that you shouldn't do it for the benefits. From your username, Milarepa, I think we come from the same general tradition. If there is a benefit, it is to be mindful after death so that one chooses a good rebirth from which one can work to help others reach Nirvana before one's self. That's not a benefit to one's ego, however, in my book.

Even if you meant that I shouldn't be meditating for "selfish" "ego" reasons, while that may be true, there are plenty of Buddhists who do it. The practitioner of the "lowest" capacity (which I am well below!) is motivated to only avoid the hell realms, they say. Yet, they are still a Buddhist due to the objects of refuge, at the very least.

I am not trying to be argumentative, I just think sometimes confusing ideas are bounced around and clarifying things helps people.

By: Zed_Lopez

Zed_Lopez — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 08:55:56 -0800

Anxiety, hubris, pettiness, hurtfulness, shame, greed... all sorts of muck arise in our minds all the time. Meditation is practice at noticing them and how they arise, and how it seems so seductive to be attached to them, to assign importance to them, to dwell on them, to let them consume our attention and energy.

The practice makes it easier in the rest of your life to notice them arise and to be able to choose to let them subside, rather than being attached to them, and falling into the positive feedback loop of their escalating in seeming importance until they dominate your attention. It gives you more mental and emotional freedom of motion.

Martial artists continue to practice the same techniques they were first taught as beginners. At some points it's boring, but it's vital to train their muscle memory so that they can respond to real-life situations by reflex. Meditation is like developing muscle memory for the martial arts of your mind, so that when an urge toward self-hatred comes along, you can just throw it to the mat and move on.

I'm kind of uncomfortable talking about meditation in this results-oriented fashion, being more inclined to Ironmouth's position that there is no reason. I sit because I sit. But all of these benefits, as well as the health benefits others have mentioned, still exist.

Also, pretty much every account of meditation talks about how a thought that always arises is "This is pointless! There are so many more important things I could be doing!" Important to whom?

By: grumblebee

grumblebee — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 08:56:11 -0800

I swear I'm not trying to snark, I'm just wondering what you're getting at.

I'm not trying to get at anything. I'm trying to understand. I have no agenda other than understanding.

Since I guess I was unclear, let me try to rephrase.

I have had variants of this discussion with many people (I've simplified the discussion for the sake of brevity):

Somebody: You should meditate.

Me: Why?

Somebody: Don't look for a reason. Meditating doesn't have a purpose.

I'm just trying to understand if there's a difference -- or an intended difference -- between that conversation and this one:

Somebody: You should play hopscotch.

Me: Why?

Somebody: Don't look for a reason. hopscotch doesn't have a purpose.

Why meditating in particular?

In fact, many people here ARE stating purposes: because it teaches you mindfulness, etc. THAT'S a purpose. But other people insist that it has no purpose. Again, I'm not opposed to doing non-purposeful activities, but why that one in particular?

By: grumblebee

grumblebee — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 08:59:54 -0800

Also...

Who cares what people do?

Me.

By: teleskiving

teleskiving — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 10:29:08 -0800

Is it more true to say, "there IS a reason, but it can't be explained. You have to meditate to know it"? Or "there IS a reason, but it's different for each person"?

I think it's more of a case that there are benefits from doing it (there are plenty in this thread), but if you do it in order to get those benefits then it doesn't work. It's a bit like playing The Game.

I'm not opposed to doing non-purposeful activities, but why that one in particular?

I think the idea is that it's easier to maintain non-purposefulness when meditating than it is when doing something like playing hopscotch. Having said that people like Thich Nhat Hanh have written plenty about the benefits of carrying out everyday activities in a spirit of nonstriving mindfulness.

By: MasonDixon

MasonDixon — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 10:29:47 -0800

Meditation traditions: Buddhist, Hindu, Christian, etc. have their origin in these religion's understandings of "salvation": There is something inherently unsatisfactory about the experience of existence and this can be overcome through meditation.

It has been discovered relatively recently that there are non-theological, utilitarian reasons to meditate and that many people divorced from the religious origins of these forms still find it useful to increase concentration, de-stress, feel better about their selves, etc.

So there are multiple "points" to meditation depending on your dedication and whether or not you agree with the Zen's interpretation of Buddhism's statement of the "problem" and the way forward through meditation out of the problem.

Another key aspect to the traditions that meditation derives from nearly all of them recommend participation with (at least) a teacher, if not a larger community.

Happy sitting!

By: Melismata

Melismata — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 10:29:54 -0800

In my opinion, if meditation did not benefit the meditator, then they would not do it. It could be either a physical or mental benefit. What those people who say it has no purpose are really saying is, it benefits me, but you are not me, your body and/or mind is not the same as mine, and therefore I can't explain to you how it benefits me. Even some things that seem to have no purpose, like playing hopscotch or needlepointing unnecessary living room pillows or doodling, have (IMO) a small purpose of momentarily calming the mind, but each one of us has different needs in this regard, and a different volume for each of those needs. I see no purpose to meditating when I have the gym for exercise and needlepoint for mindless relaxation, and I don't walk around thinking, "gee, my life would be better if I learned how to meditate," and therefore I am not interested in pursuing this activity.

I have had people imply to me that I am stupid or lazy for not wanting to meditate, along the lines of, "well, then I guess you just don't want to improve yourself, that's your loss." (After I have, for example, complained about one of my faults such as getting upset with telemarketers, or something like that.) Again, they are only looking at how it benefits them, not taking into account that someone else may not need or want that approach.

By: dminor

dminor — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 12:36:03 -0800

One of the main "points" of meditation is to forget about finding the "point".

By: nanojath

nanojath — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 13:10:13 -0800

Alan Watt's opening statement in the introduction of OM, creative meditations always struck me as a pithy response to this question from a western, cause and effect mentality:

"A person who thinks all the time has nothing to think about except thoughts. so he loses touch with reality and lives in a world of illusions."

In this perspective I'd suggest that the "point" of meditation is to re-engage with the reality of being, unencumbered as possible by external influences.

Of course I don't know anything about zen except book larnin'.

I'd also suggest that you don't discount the range of demonstrated positive physical and mental health effects (aka "much-touted stress relief"). One of the reasons you probably are so positive about it when you return to it after a hiatus is that those benefits have slowly eroded over time and your body and mind are very ready to get them back.

By: hazel

hazel — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 15:45:01 -0800

To me, yes, there is a point: the many benefits that I have experienced personally and that are backed by research (stress management, awareness of my thought patterns, emotional recognition, being able to focus on the moment without distraction, gratitude, openness). But, knowing these benefits doesn't mean that I'm completely goal-oriented- that I hope to reach some magical endpoint of being completely stress-free, happy, or enlightened. I wouldn't do it if I didn't believe it had a point. But, my focus is not on "the point" maybe that's what gets me to sit and do it though.

I like to know the evidence, from thousands of years of studying to modern-day research. This helps me reconfirm that its good for me. Research in this field has grown so much in the past couple of years. Often, its termed as "mindfulness" because using meditation can get political.

Its about keeping your brain healthy & training your brain. Its about accepting it as always being a practice, not a perfected state or expert level. A teacher recently told me to think of it as doing tightrope..."there is no balance, there is only balancing."

I highly recommend Daniel Siegal's writing about mindfulness in the brain. Specifically, The Mindful Brain. Its all backed by brain research and is secular.

By: jamjam

jamjam — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 16:56:28 -0800

I've been thinking for a while now that meditation could have developed and spread because it can reduce a persons total demand for calories from food-- especially that of the brain. As such, it would be a very valuable technique for surviving famines or more specifically personal shortages of food.

I know of no studies demonstrating that meditators burn fewer calories, but all those claims that Yoga is a royal road to learning to hold your breath longer underwater would be less surprising if that were to be the case.