What to charge for a website redesign that will never go live?
January 8, 2008 11:21 AM Subscribe
How much do I charge a client for a website refresh that will never go live? It's almost been 6 months. Countless production hours. Dozens of emails and conference calls. They can't agree, I want it out of my hair, the site isn't going live.
It was only supposed to be a refresh of a few images on the site and a minor overhaul of the homepage, just something to make their old site look a bit different. It got out of hand - they decided to make some radical changes after the initial ones, but didn't like it in the end. The client are two business partners with different tastes... one went further with the suggestions than the other until I realized (too late) that one of them was suggesting changes on behalf of them both (they didn't agree).
I've probably spent minimum of 100 hours on this. I lost count. We have a good working relationship that has spanned a few years and I am interested in continuing to work with them.
We've literally come full circle and they don't like any of it, so they're sticking with the old site and I've been asked to come up with a cost for all this.
What's fair for us both? I usually charge $65/hour for production.
It was only supposed to be a refresh of a few images on the site and a minor overhaul of the homepage, just something to make their old site look a bit different. It got out of hand - they decided to make some radical changes after the initial ones, but didn't like it in the end. The client are two business partners with different tastes... one went further with the suggestions than the other until I realized (too late) that one of them was suggesting changes on behalf of them both (they didn't agree).
I've probably spent minimum of 100 hours on this. I lost count. We have a good working relationship that has spanned a few years and I am interested in continuing to work with them.
We've literally come full circle and they don't like any of it, so they're sticking with the old site and I've been asked to come up with a cost for all this.
What's fair for us both? I usually charge $65/hour for production.
What's fair for both of you is for them to pay you for your services and you to accept the payment.
There's nothing unfair about them having to pay for services that they requested, as long as the terms were made clear at the get-go.
If you do cut them a break, it needs to be made clear. Having worked with clients like this before, it's very likely that if you don't draw a line, this is going to become a more frequent occurrence. After all, if they jerk you around for 100 hours of work and don't see any repercussions from it... why not do it the next time they get a whim?
posted by toomuchpete at 11:37 AM on January 8, 2008
There's nothing unfair about them having to pay for services that they requested, as long as the terms were made clear at the get-go.
If you do cut them a break, it needs to be made clear. Having worked with clients like this before, it's very likely that if you don't draw a line, this is going to become a more frequent occurrence. After all, if they jerk you around for 100 hours of work and don't see any repercussions from it... why not do it the next time they get a whim?
posted by toomuchpete at 11:37 AM on January 8, 2008
Based on your numbers, I'd just call it $5000 and be done with it. You can point out that even though they've chosen not to use the work, they got more than that money's worth of work. A discount! (and you get reasonably close to your regular rate for the time)
posted by braintoast at 11:37 AM on January 8, 2008
posted by braintoast at 11:37 AM on January 8, 2008
Having done this in the past, I don't see why you offer a discount to them. This is the most frustrating type of design work their can be. If you have a full accounting of your time, bill them at time. and, i hate to tell you this, if you were unable to give them what they wanted (and i'm not saying that's your fault) you may be at the end of your work relationship with them anyway.
posted by raconteur at 11:42 AM on January 8, 2008
posted by raconteur at 11:42 AM on January 8, 2008
Had the same situation here, and I really have to maintain a decent relationship with the company, since they employ my fiance. The owner had approved the design multiple times, but in the end decided not to use it for whatever reason. I charged them for the actual time spent minus about 10%. It went smoothly.
posted by desjardins at 11:45 AM on January 8, 2008
posted by desjardins at 11:45 AM on January 8, 2008
You did the work, right? Even if the site doesn't go live, you did the work, so they should pay for the work done. If your agreed upon rate was $65/hour and you worked 100 hours, that's what you bill them for. If these are friends or people you anticipate future business from, you could cut them a break at your discretion.
Speaking from experience, in the future I highly recommend you write up a contract that clearly states your hourly rate and the scope of the project in hours or work to be done. I also recommend billing for your hours at regular intervals - every two weeks, once a month, bi-annually, whatever seems most appropriate.
posted by geeky at 11:46 AM on January 8, 2008 [2 favorites]
Speaking from experience, in the future I highly recommend you write up a contract that clearly states your hourly rate and the scope of the project in hours or work to be done. I also recommend billing for your hours at regular intervals - every two weeks, once a month, bi-annually, whatever seems most appropriate.
posted by geeky at 11:46 AM on January 8, 2008 [2 favorites]
When i do these kinds off things it's for a set hourly with a specific minimum with an associated after hours fee if after hours work is required, the general policy is to invoice the customer every 30 days.
There is no reason you should not be paid for every hour that you worked, the business not being able to come to a decision is not your issue, the work was done, they need to pay for it.
posted by iamabot at 11:53 AM on January 8, 2008
There is no reason you should not be paid for every hour that you worked, the business not being able to come to a decision is not your issue, the work was done, they need to pay for it.
posted by iamabot at 11:53 AM on January 8, 2008
On preview: looks like I'm just seconding billing at regular if you're doing work by the hour instead of by the project/milestone.
If nothing else, your (and their) memory will be fresh regarding how much you've worked. It's been 100 hours over 26 weeks; that's an average of 4 hours per week. If their memory is light, they might be thinking 2 hours a week, and multipled over 6 months, that's quite the surprise that they might dispute.
posted by nobeagle at 12:04 PM on January 8, 2008
If nothing else, your (and their) memory will be fresh regarding how much you've worked. It's been 100 hours over 26 weeks; that's an average of 4 hours per week. If their memory is light, they might be thinking 2 hours a week, and multipled over 6 months, that's quite the surprise that they might dispute.
posted by nobeagle at 12:04 PM on January 8, 2008
Bill 100% of your hours at 100% of your rate, unless you really didn't work 100% on it.
That said if you want to throw them a bone, maybe suggest that some (10%?) of the hours could count towards future work for them.
posted by Skorgu at 12:11 PM on January 8, 2008
That said if you want to throw them a bone, maybe suggest that some (10%?) of the hours could count towards future work for them.
posted by Skorgu at 12:11 PM on January 8, 2008
Whether or not they use it and whether or not the partners were on the same page is not your concern. Continuing the relationship is. Charge them full price and if they whine give them a (small) break with maximum reasons. Also, keep in mind that your years-long relationship and their communications problems means that they would be ill-equipped to break-in a new web contractor who is not aware of their idiosyncrasies. You can use this to your advantage.
posted by rhizome at 12:19 PM on January 8, 2008
posted by rhizome at 12:19 PM on January 8, 2008
I agree that you should get paid for your hours worked. Again, it's not your fault the company is not able to come to an internal agreement and that the site is not going live. I would present a bill for your 100 hours at your hourly rate and see what they say. You can negotiate from there as necessary. This way you are not underselling yourself, but you are also showing you can be reasonable.
To help prevent this in the future, I would suggest you figure out a system for tracking all of your hours. It's a shame to give a [crappy] client free labor simply because you can't prove you worked those hours.
Maybe also you can include in your contract that the product that you are selling them is the actual site creative/development itself, regardless of whether or not they decide to actually use what you've sold them.
posted by anthropoid at 12:35 PM on January 8, 2008
To help prevent this in the future, I would suggest you figure out a system for tracking all of your hours. It's a shame to give a [crappy] client free labor simply because you can't prove you worked those hours.
Maybe also you can include in your contract that the product that you are selling them is the actual site creative/development itself, regardless of whether or not they decide to actually use what you've sold them.
posted by anthropoid at 12:35 PM on January 8, 2008
Oh, and for the future I'd recommend treating them as if they are on the same page. CC both of them on all emails you send and ask questions of one person about tasks given to you by the other person. You could also impose a meeting-driven structure where all progress and changes are discussed by all three of you. Daily/weekly updates, etc. Keep a log of all tasks and who requested them.
posted by rhizome at 12:58 PM on January 8, 2008
posted by rhizome at 12:58 PM on January 8, 2008
Yes, bill them the whole thing. They may not like it, so be prepared to document every ridiculous request to embiggen the logo, change the font, etc., as that will help.
In the future, you may want to bill them in increments rather than all at once, 6 mos. into the project.
posted by Mister_A at 1:09 PM on January 8, 2008
In the future, you may want to bill them in increments rather than all at once, 6 mos. into the project.
posted by Mister_A at 1:09 PM on January 8, 2008
email and CC whomever.
Hi Guys,
I understand this has been a long project and at this point I will need to give you an invoice for all the work performed. Please let me know if you have any questions.
- impactorange
-attach invoice
posted by damn dirty ape at 1:48 PM on January 8, 2008
Hi Guys,
I understand this has been a long project and at this point I will need to give you an invoice for all the work performed. Please let me know if you have any questions.
- impactorange
-attach invoice
posted by damn dirty ape at 1:48 PM on January 8, 2008
(Time spent ± X hours you're unsure of) * (rate)
Do they seem unwilling to pay full rate? I wouldn't discount them for wasting your time. Speaking from experience, providing a discount for no real reason will lead them to expect a discount on the next project. If they can get their project for $5000 instead of $6500 this time, then why not on the next project?
posted by fleeba at 3:15 PM on January 8, 2008
Do they seem unwilling to pay full rate? I wouldn't discount them for wasting your time. Speaking from experience, providing a discount for no real reason will lead them to expect a discount on the next project. If they can get their project for $5000 instead of $6500 this time, then why not on the next project?
posted by fleeba at 3:15 PM on January 8, 2008
Honestly? I don't even understand why it's a question.
If you've spent 100 hours on it, you should be paid for 100 hours, just the same as if you'd been flipping burgers for 100 hours.
Unless you got some kind of clear communication that you shouldn't do any work until both of the people had signed off on it, i.e. you did work without authorisation to go ahead, it's unmistakably not your fault.
Perhaps, if you think they'll balk at being charged for the actual hours, and/or you'd rather charge them for less for the sake of goodwill, you should still detail all the work you've done, i.e. "Dear Whoever, I calculate that I've spent 147 hours on this. In light of all the hassles, I'm going to bill you for a nominal 100 hours".
posted by AmbroseChapel at 5:23 PM on January 8, 2008
If you've spent 100 hours on it, you should be paid for 100 hours, just the same as if you'd been flipping burgers for 100 hours.
Unless you got some kind of clear communication that you shouldn't do any work until both of the people had signed off on it, i.e. you did work without authorisation to go ahead, it's unmistakably not your fault.
Perhaps, if you think they'll balk at being charged for the actual hours, and/or you'd rather charge them for less for the sake of goodwill, you should still detail all the work you've done, i.e. "Dear Whoever, I calculate that I've spent 147 hours on this. In light of all the hassles, I'm going to bill you for a nominal 100 hours".
posted by AmbroseChapel at 5:23 PM on January 8, 2008
If it were me, I would bill them for the hours worked and not do any more work until you get paid. After that, you bill on a weekly basis.
I have been in a similar situation and it can be super frustrating. Keep reminding yourself that it's money. Think of it like doing laundry for a living. You'll never be finished but you'll keep getting paid. If you bill on a weekly basis, the worst you will get jipped on is one week. I was out a hell of a lot more billable hours before I learned that lesson.
posted by Foam Pants at 8:15 PM on January 8, 2008
I have been in a similar situation and it can be super frustrating. Keep reminding yourself that it's money. Think of it like doing laundry for a living. You'll never be finished but you'll keep getting paid. If you bill on a weekly basis, the worst you will get jipped on is one week. I was out a hell of a lot more billable hours before I learned that lesson.
posted by Foam Pants at 8:15 PM on January 8, 2008
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posted by vytae at 11:35 AM on January 8, 2008