TNF Down or TriClimate

January 7, 2008 11:38 AM

Skiers: NorthFace down or TriClimate?

I'm buying a new coat, North Face, primarily for skiing. The one I think I want is a down coat, the Full Circle Down Jacket.

Most of TNF's jackets that seem appropriate for skiing are the TriClimate ones, which feel much lighter. I had a Denali fleece with a shell it zipped in to, but that was not at all warm. I know these 'active' jackets are designed in consideration of the body heat generated during winter sports, so I wonder if the down is overkill. Then I think of last week at O'Keemo, 35 at base and 20 midway up...

So since I'm looking at $400 on this, I'd like to know if the down coat is necessary, if the TriClimate is sufficient. I'm a really skinny guy, if that matters.

posted by jma to sports, hobbies, & recreation (14 comments total)

I'd never snowboard with a down jacket. I usually wear a Capilene long underwear base, a synthetic longsleeve midweight top over that, and then a Windstopper shell (Mountain Hardware or Arc'teryx) that can be zipped, unzipped, or left at the base.

A giant down layer is way too inflexible, bulky, and expensive. Save it for the Everest expedition.
posted by kcm at 11:41 AM on January 7, 2008

I don't think down is a great idea for skiing, especially if typical temperatures you will experience are above freezing. No matter how amazingly waterproof the outside layer of the jacket is, the down will get damp (and then heavy and stop insulating very well). Down works really well when the temperature if very low and the conditions dry, but it isn't ideal for wetter and warmer conditions. On a crisp touring day, absolutely; on a freezing-point ski day, not so much. I ski with a waterproof-breathable layer on top of a fleece jacket, with long underwear underneath. I'd recommend you do something similar (and you should be able to get all three layers for less than $400). Get a really warm base layer rather than a warm outer layer: it'll do a better job, for less money.
posted by ssg at 12:05 PM on January 7, 2008

I second ssg's advice. Layers are the way to go. Start with a comfortable long underwear setup that keeps you from getting cold and clammy. Next, get a good outer shell that's waterproof, has useful pockets, and fits loosely enough that you can choose how many insulating layers to wear between your long undies and your shell. Spend your money on the outer shell (but don't buy North Face at full price, they're a ripoff). Fleece and long undies are cheap.

Depending on the weather, I wear a thin fleece jacket and pants under my waterproof shell for most skiing days. If it's cold, I'll double some of my insulating layers.

Puffy vests and one-pieces are for style points only.
posted by anthill at 12:17 PM on January 7, 2008

I would stay away from the down. It WILL get damp, and once damp, will stop insulating properly. Or, what kcm and ssg said.

As a rule, many thin layers work far, far better than fewer bulky layers, as they breathe better and you can adjust for varying temps easier (read: you won't get damp/sweaty, then chilled). Get some polypro underwear to layer under the Triclimate and you'll be fine.

I just got a Columbia Titanium 3-way ski parka (inner stretch fleece softshell snaps to an outer wind/waterproof parka shell). The 2 together are FAR warmer and less bulky than a down would be.

I couldn't stand skiing in the bulk of a down either. I much prefer the articulated joints and slim 'active' fit of the parka I have. I dunno about you, but I need all the stretch/articulation I can get when I ski. Anything like a fleece or sweater under a down jacket would likely render me both Michelin-man comical-looking AND kid-in-a-too-small-snowsuit uncomfortable/immobile.
posted by lonefrontranger at 12:18 PM on January 7, 2008

A $400 down jacket will not be a versatile garment for skiing for reasons already noted by ssg. Look into some of the nice soft-shell jackets available from Mountain Hardware, Patagonia, or Cloudveil. I use a Mountain Hardware soft-shell and layer beneath it with fleece or just some base layers according to the weather. It works for me on all but the warmest days of the season. If you tend to get really cold when skiing, think about layering with a synthetic down vest to keep your core warm.
posted by man on the run at 12:21 PM on January 7, 2008

All good advice from those above and ssg (who you best-answered) has got it. Layers are key. I only use my down jacket at rests or around the kitchen at night, or if it's bitterly cold. If you start to overheat, it's much easier to lose a layer than it is to ditch the whole jacket.

Don't buy cotton!

For the Okeemo weather you describe, I'd be in a heavier lightweight long sleeve t-shirt, a windproof vest (just nylon) and a shell jacket, but I run pretty warm. You can get all you need for less than $400, if you shop around and buy brands other than North Face, Patagonia, etc...
posted by Pantengliopoli at 12:54 PM on January 7, 2008

What everyone else is saying: don't wear down. You'll sweat, the down will clump and you'll lose heat.

Layering is key. I have a base layer (something wicking like Helly Lifa or cheaper equivalents), fleece (Helly), waterproof Goretex shell (currently Taiga), breathable trousers (Helly). Most of my kit is bought in sales, hence the Helly - all of which was at least 50% off. Never pay full price for North Face - rip off prices for those people who only ever visit Cotswold Camping (UK).

Best thing for keeping warm is a helmet, keeps the heat in much more than a fleece hat and it keeps your brain intact. More people than not are wearing them these days, worn one for the last 2 years and I love it.
posted by arcticseal at 1:26 PM on January 7, 2008

3ply seamsealed goretex is amazing: I was stuck on a lift w/2 thin layers and a 3ply gretex berghaus jacket in 60mph winds and I was fine. Didnt get sticky when working hard either.... Newer technologies may be even better.
posted by lalochezia at 1:47 PM on January 7, 2008

arcticseal, I was going to ask about the wicking shirts. The idea makes sense but I always wonder, with it way at the bottom of the layers, does the layer just above end up absorbing all the moisture?
posted by jma at 1:59 PM on January 7, 2008

arcticseal, I was going to ask about the wicking shirts. The idea makes sense but I always wonder, with it way at the bottom of the layers, does the layer just above end up absorbing all the moisture?

Nope -- your body heat will push the moisture out through your layers and through your (breathable) jacket. The key is to have nothing between that bottom layer and the outside that will absorb the moisture, like a cotton/flannel shirt or, to a lesser degree, a down vest. If you run a little colder and like the extra insulation, the down vest will do nicely, just be sure to take it off before you really work up a sweat.
posted by Pantengliopoli at 2:13 PM on January 7, 2008

Down also relies a lot of bulk, which is counter-intuitive when skiing.
posted by furtive at 3:25 PM on January 7, 2008

What Pantengliopoli said is correct.

I tend to find my fleece gets a little damp, but dries out very quickly. I'd rather the fleece is moist than me!
posted by arcticseal at 2:00 AM on January 8, 2008

I would advise that you DO stick to a brand like Patagonia, Berghaus, or ArcTeryx. Don't fall victim to the TNF marketing machine. After owning many items from all of the above, my TNF stuff lasted the shortest amount of time, and was generally not as durable and warm as the other brands-- Plus, Patagonia stuff is often made from recycled materials, and ArcTeryx is made in Canada!

For whatever reason, TNF crap became popular a few years ago and their quality and construction fell straight to shit-- but it looks to be improving, lately. I'd still avoid them and Columbia like the plague.

Ditto the 3-layer Gore-Tex talk, and don't discount wool! A Patagonia wool top and 3 layer Gore jacket is all you'll need for even 0 degree days. Check out eVent shells too, more breathable at a lower cost than Gore-- and mine has already gone 3 seasons!
posted by jstef at 11:05 AM on January 8, 2008

I must admit, I love Patagonia kit, costs more but it is good stuff. I have a lesser opinion of Berghaus. The Arcteryx rucksack I have is bombproof.

I agree with the North Face comment, quality isn't what it used to be in the early 90s - more street fashion these days.

By way way of illustration, I have a 11 year old Rab down jacket that looks and functions as good as it did the day I bought it, apart from a few stains, by contrast I have a North Face down jacket that's about 5 years old and it's ratty as hell.

Toastiest by far is the MEC expedition goretex down jacket I bought in the sale for CDN$100, so warm I only wear it about once a year, but for $100 it was worth it.

...wouldn't wear any of them skiing though... ;o)
posted by arcticseal at 4:51 AM on January 9, 2008