Car trouble

January 3, 2008 4:46 PM

Cars! I don't want to go to the mechanic as a female and say, "I have no idea what's wrong with my car! Please replace half my engine and overcharge me ridiculous amounts!!" I'm hoping to get some ideas on what might be wrong before I go...

I have a 2002 PT Cruiser with 106,000 miles on it. The engine light has come on. There's a trick to display the error codes on the odometer; it's coming up with P1684 and P0551. I've looked them up online. P1684 is "The battery has been disconnected within the last 50 starts." P0551 is "The power steering switch may not be working." Online forums seem to tell me to ignore P1684. My battery hasn't been disconnected, my car has been starting just fine (even in the very cold weather).

I tried to test my power steering switch as suggested in help forums. I turned my wheel all the way to one side while parked and observed the idle RPMs. They dropped when the wheel was turned, and while I was holding the wheel the idle came back up to normal. It reset itself again when I straightened the wheel. From what I've read, this seems to indicate that the power steering switch is ok. I checked the fluid and there seems to be the right amount.

The car drives just fine. Nothing seemed wrong with it until this afternoon. The light on my dash behind one of my gauges has gone out. That's it. The car starts, doesn't stall or shudder, no funny noises or smells. Just the dash light out, and the engine light error codes.

Any ideas? I'm just nervous about bringing in a car with nothing apparently wrong, and getting ripped off while they "look for the problem".

posted by veronitron to travel & transportation (19 comments total)

They dropped when the wheel was turned, and while I was holding the wheel the idle came back up to normal.

I'm not sure how that tests a 'power steering switch'. All power steering systems will do that - while the wheel is turning, the pump for the fluid (driven by the engine) will cause the revs to drop as it has load on it, When the wheel stops moving, the revs rise because the load is removed.

Regardless, you have a good idea as to what it is - it is a power steering switch. You have some options:

a: Take it in, say nothing other than 'the warning light cane on' and if they try and charge you for anything else, tell them to poke it up their arses.

b: Tell then the warning light came on for a potentially broken power steering switch. Ask them to see if it needs replacing. Tell them, if you likem that you have tested it according to some instructions a mechanic friend gave you (don't say over the internet!) and nothing appears wrong, but you'd like it confirmed.

c: Drive the car and ignore the issue.

The problem with 'c' is that if something IS wrong, your steering may fail. When power steering fails, it suddenly gets very heavy. This is a touch problematic if you aren't ready for it and it's halfway around a corner...

a and b require a certain amount of trust, but it is the only way you'll get it fixed. It is up to you to decide how much implied knowledge you want to give them to ward off 'no-mechanical-knowledge mark up'.

Not everyone does it, you know.
posted by Brockles at 4:59 PM on January 3, 2008

It appears to be a bad sensor or something with the electrical (could be as simple as a bad fuse). You could say exactly what you just said here.

Or to summarize (with some copy / pasting):

My engine light is one, the onboard computer is reporting the error codes as P1684 and P0551. However I have not disconnected my battery and my power steering switch appears to be working. The car drives just fine. Nothing seemed wrong with it until this afternoon. The light on my dash behind one of my gauges has gone out. That's it. The car starts, doesn't stall or shudder, no funny noises or smells. Just the dash light out, and the engine light error codes.

Maybe some other local folks (or yelp) can also help you find a good mechanic, and you should be set.
posted by mrzarquon at 4:59 PM on January 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

I seem to have an issue with 'then' and 'them'. Please correct in your mind accordingly..
posted by Brockles at 5:00 PM on January 3, 2008

Is there another trick to clear the codes where the display trick came from? Since everything seems fine, next thing to do in my opinion is to clear the codes and wait and see if they come back. They might not. That's probably all the mechanic would do at this point, which should probably be cheap or free, but you never know.
posted by jclovebrew at 5:02 PM on January 3, 2008

It's OK to go the dealer and say "the check engine light came on" and tell them you know the codes. They should offer to inspect it for no cost.

Listen to what they have to say. If things don't sound right, leave. Get a second opinion.

I took my wife's car to the dealer for a check engine light that the code said was "emissions control problem" and what I was told it that the gas cap wasn't put on tight enough. Gave me a little faith in the dealers as I drove away with the problem solved at no cost.
posted by Argyle at 5:03 PM on January 3, 2008

Trying to prove how much you know will only expose how little you know. Best to say nothing and let them try to bullshit you. Then you can call them on it after.

I'm a refrigeration mechanic, not an auto mechanic, but I get this all the time. We know you don't know. You won't be able to convince them otherwise, unless you can walk in and say - "yeah, contacts on the power steering relay are pitted, I don't have time to change it this week so can you guys?" - and be right.

People vastly overestimate the frequency that trades are actively trying to screw them. Not saying it doesn't happen, but if they are going to do it to you, they are going to do it to you.

Look at it this way. Say metafilter gearheads narrow it down to likely possibility "X". You take it to the mechanic and they say, ok we took a look, you were right and "X" was blown. It was blown because of "Y" so we changed that too.

Are you going to argue with them?
posted by vonliebig at 5:09 PM on January 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

What vonliebig said, and try searching the Car Talk Mechanics Files for a garage people like near you. You probably just have a faulty switch or a short somewhere, a pretty cheap fix.
posted by Camofrog at 5:19 PM on January 3, 2008

jclovebrew - I haven't found a way to reset the codes, unfortunately.

vonliebig - It's not so much that I want to know exactly the problem before I go in. I guess I am wondering if other people have had similar issues. When I was reading through PT Cruiser forums, many people had similar problems, but no one had my problem exactly. They were getting those codes, but their cars were also stalling. As a mechanic, is it more useful if the customer has a better idea of what might be wrong, or is it better to be handed an almost blank slate (serious question)?
posted by veronitron at 5:21 PM on January 3, 2008

"Get 3 estimates" is the best advice I ever got. It was in reference to home repairs, but it applies to any situation where I'm dealing with a specialist who knows more than me. Most mechanics, contractors, doctors, roofers, etc are honest and smart - if you talk to more than one, it becomes very obvious who isn't, and you can steer clear. For car stuff, I go in and ask for an estimate, with a ballpark figure in my head of what I think it will cost. If the estimate comes back a lot higher than what I was expecting to pay, I take it somewhere else for a second opinion.
posted by selfmedicating at 5:33 PM on January 3, 2008

People vastly overestimate the frequency that trades are actively trying to screw them. Not saying it doesn't happen, but if they are going to do it to you, they are going to do it to you.

Exactly. I'm a woman and have been taking vehicles cars into dealers and independent mechanics by myself for my entire adult life. One dealer tried to rip me off once. I had a basic hunch that what was wrong shouldn't require $2000 to fix (not to mention the fact that I didn't have $2000 to begin with), so I took it to someone else who fixed it for $300. I took my car to him from then on, and not only did he never rip me off, when I decided to sell the car, he bought it from me at the blue book price.

In any case, walking in and saying just what you've said here -- the engine light came on, you tested the power steering, the car's been starting fine, etc. -- is fine; none of that will be automatically interpreted as "I'm just a girl! I don't know about cars! I'll write you a check for a whole new shiny engine!" merely because you happen to have a pair of breasts. Just present yourself professionally as you would to any vendor and tell them what you told us here. They are required to give you an estimate before they do any work. If you have any concerns, go get another estimate someplace else.

Also, if you go to a large dealer, you may even speak to a female service rep when you bring the car in; several times when I've gone in for regular dealer service, I interact with a woman (and I don't mean the receptionist -- I mean the actual service rep who does the intake for my vehicle). The guys in the back have no clue whether a man or woman brought the car in.

As a mechanic, is it more useful if the customer has a better idea of what might be wrong, or is it better to be handed an almost blank slate (serious question)?

They don't need you to suggest a diagnosis of what's wrong; they just need to communicate the practical evidence of what's wrong. In other words, just tell them the facts. They're not going to immediately decide you're ripe for cheating because you don't know the name of whatever obscure part might need to be replaced.

Look at it this way: when you go to a doctor, she doesn't need you to supply a list of the actual diseases you might have; she just needs you to report the symptoms as clearly and thoroughly as you can.
posted by scody at 5:42 PM on January 3, 2008

I appreciate the advice, but I'm looking for possible suggestions, not lectures on why I shouldn't be asking this question. I understand that not everyone is going to rip me off, I've brought plenty of cars to places before. However, those cars had obvious 'symptoms' that I could report, other than "my light came on".

I was hoping that those codes + gauge light going out, or those codes + running fine, or such might be familiar to someone here so I could get a better idea of what might be the problem. I haven't had this particular problem before, so the symptoms aren't telling me anything useful that I feel I could report to the mechanic.
posted by veronitron at 5:55 PM on January 3, 2008

Most cars you can reset the error codes by disconnecting the battery negative (black) terminal for over 5 seconds.
posted by oblio_one at 5:56 PM on January 3, 2008

My apologies. Given that you made a point of saying "I'm just nervous about bringing in a car with nothing apparently wrong, and getting ripped off while they "look for the problem," I assumed that "should I be nervous?" was implicitly part of your question. Rather than "lecture" you, I and others were trying to reassure you that no, you probably don't really need to be so nervous.

Also, I did answer your follow-up question "As a mechanic, is it more useful if the customer has a better idea of what might be wrong, or is it better to be handed an almost blank slate (serious question)?" based on my own experiences with many cars and many mechanics. Of course, I'm not a mechanic -- just another woman with a car.

Good luck.
posted by scody at 6:03 PM on January 3, 2008

I had written up a large post on how to deal with mechanics, but I did some quick Google searches and found the following:

3 recalls on the 2002 PT Cruiser:
http://www.automotive.com/2002/12/chrysler/pt-cruiser/recalls/index.html

Power Steering Hose:
Summary:
ON CERTAIN PASSENGER VEHICLES EQUIPPED WITH 2.4L NON-TURBOCHARGED ENGINES AND AUTOMATIC TRANSAXLES, THE POWER STEERING PRESSURE HOSE MAY CONTACT THE AUTOMATIC TRANSAXLE DIFFERENTIAL COVER, POTENTIALLY DAMAGING THE HOSE.
Consequence:
POWER STEERING FLUID LEAKAGE IN THE PRESENCE OF AN IGNITION SOURCE CAN RESULT IN AN UNDERHOOD FIRE.

Fuel System:
Summary:
ON CERTAIN PASSENGER VEHICLES, THE FUEL PUMP MODULE MOUNTING FLANGE COULD LEAK FUEL IF THE VEHICLE IS INVOLVED IN A ROLLOVER CRASH.
Consequence:
FUEL LEAKAGE IN THE PRESENCE OF AN IGNITION SOURCE COULD RESULT IN A FIRE.

Electrical System Underdash Wiring:
Summary:
VEHICLE DESCRIPTION: CERTAIN SPORT UTILITY VEHICLES ARE BEING RECALLED FOR A SOFTWARE ERROR IN THE INSTRUMENT CLUSTER MICROPROCESSOR. UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS, THE CLUSTER, WITH THE MAJORITY OF ITS GAUGES, ILLUMINATION, AND WARNING LAMPS, COULD BECOME INOPERATIVE.
Consequence:
DRIVING THE VEHICLE WITH AN INOPERATIVE CLUSTER COULD CAUSE A DISTRACTION, INCREASING THE RISK OF A CRASH.

You can find out if these recalls affect your car by going to Chrysler's website here: http://www.chrysler.com/en/owners/ select 2002 PT Cruiser, and enter the last 8 digits of your VIN. Also you can contact Chrysler by phone at 1-800-853-1403.

The fuel system issue obviously isn't something that would be an active problem for you, unless you are taking your car to the Destruction Derby, but it would be prudent to get it looked into.

The battery issue may be related to the electrical system wiring recall. A quick stop at an auto parts store like AutoZone and they'll check your battery and its cables for free.
posted by Stilus at 6:14 PM on January 3, 2008

scody - I wasn't referring to you exactly, I was getting an attitude from a few responses, I felt, that suggested I shouldn't be asking. The follow-up question though, I did mean to ask specifically the mechanics how they felt about how customers approach them.

Thanks so far for the suggestions.
posted by veronitron at 6:18 PM on January 3, 2008

Here is what I would do if I had your problem: Disconnect the negative (black) cable from the battery for a few seconds. This should clear the codes. Then check the codes again. You'll still have the P1684 code, because you disconnected the battery, but you probably won't have the power steering switch code. Drive around for a day or two and then check the codes again. If the power steering switch code appears again, check the applicable fuses and then take it to a mechanic and tell them that you have the power steering switch code. If the code doesn't reappear, don't worry about it.

The power steering switch controls the idle speed of the engine when you are placing heavy demands on your power steering. Basically, it only does something when you are stopped and turning the wheels (which you tested), so I wouldn't worry about driving the car with that code showing up. Read more about it here (search for power steering).
posted by ssg at 6:28 PM on January 3, 2008

my advice (as a female) is: find yourself a reliable, trustworthy mechanic. that way you can go in and say, "hey, i heard this noise, and it's out of the ordinary for the car, harry, can you get in and drive with me and listen to it?" and harry will say, "Girl, don't you have a radio in this car? turn it on and you won't hear every little noise" or he'll say "get out of the car right now, there is something wrong with your brakes."

local review sites are helpful, but for me the best starting point to find the most honest mechanics has been the cartalk web site. there is a board there for people to recommend honest mechanics. take the names, do a search around local sites (yelp, cl, whatever you have that's local). one thing for sure, rip-off artists get discovered and called out.

now, it helps that i have a brother who i can call and validate stuff with so i know for sure things are okay, but the thing is he has never said, "damn, they totally got you" with this method.

the other thing you can do, if you are really worried, is get a male friend to come with you. just his mere male presence will remove the potential rip-off factor, or at least they'll try *less* bs. the key is for them to never actually say anything, though, unless they can sound convincing.

i imagine i'll get flamed. understand i am 43 and i choose where to fight the battles for feminism. when i need to get my car fixed is not one of those places.
posted by micawber at 7:17 PM on January 3, 2008

As a mechanic, is it more useful if the customer has a better idea of what might be wrong, or is it better to be handed an almost blank slate (serious question)?

Blank slate? Not so much. It's not like you are going to contaminate the diagnostic process by giving wonky suggestions - we will just ignore you and make fun of you in the coffee room. Just don't insist if you don't know and you'll be fine. If buddy doesn't seem interested in following your line of reasoning, don't insist on going there because he probably has a reason. I jumped on you because I see where this often leads - customer walks in with preconceived notion and drives us all up the wall because it makes no sense - so now we have to spend the better part of an hour that we can't charge out explaining how this particular model doesn't even have the widget they decided to blame. In my trade it's the cook/maintnance man told me so. For car guys it's the internet/uncle who changes his own oil.

Of course it is useful if the customer knows what is/may be wrong. But it is only useful if it's solid information. Tell what you know and leave the guessing to the guys and gals that turn wrenches for a living. Hey, if your car won't start and you and think the starter is gone, feel free to let us know. But don't kid yourself, that was on our shortlist of "car won't start" fixes anyways. General possibilities you picked up off the internet - the apprentices have those on their cheat sheets already. Something specific, like such and such car had a recall, that is of use. But they should check that themselves anyways.

Like I said, I'm a commercial refrig guy. I do my fixing on the customer's site, not back at the shop after they leave. So people who have no idea what they're talking about telling me what they think is wrong drives me up the wall because I have them doing it over my shoulder for three hours straight while I work. Nothing worse than someone insisting it's one thing that I ruled out two hours ago. And refusing to believe otherwise, even when I hand them the smoking remains of what they didn't think it was.

I'd imagine the car guys get less of that because people drop off the car and leave them alone to work.
posted by vonliebig at 9:53 PM on January 3, 2008

pst - engine lights are there to make local franchises money. There are sensors everywhere; in many cars it looks like that if a sensor goes out of bounds once it keeps lighting up even if that bound is never broken again.

If you're under warranty, go and get it checked out. If it's out of warranty, don't worry about it too much; if you ever find a mechanic that you can trust, ask them to take a look and dsable the warning if everything looks ok.
posted by porpoise at 9:58 PM on January 3, 2008