How do they get away with that?

December 27, 2007 9:56 AM

Why don't people who try to scam BestBuy out of a PS3 by saying they got an empty box get arrested?

From my observation of my own PS3, Xbox360, and Wii boxes, I notice that all three have cut-out windows that allow the salesperson to scan the serial number off the actual device inside the box, no doubt part of inventory control procedures to prevent these kinds of claims. So how come these people aren't getting arrested for attempted fraud? At best buy, it appears there's no way to ring up the purchase of one of the consoles without that Serial Number, so it would seem like de facto proof that they are trying a scam.
How do these people end up on TV, instead of in jail?

posted by nomisxid to law & government (30 comments total)

Couldn't the cashier be a rogue agent?
posted by jeffamaphone at 9:59 AM on December 27, 2007

Well, if they succeed in returning the box to the store for a refund or exchange, I assume they have to enter some personal data into the records the store keeps. I ave often had to sign something when making a return, presumedly so that if I turn up as a frequent enough returner, they can keep tabs on me. Likewise for selling things to consignment shops and pawn shops. If they don't succeed, no crime is committed. Also, here in CA at least, up to $500 is petty theft, a misdemeanor, and probably not a fraud arrest.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 10:02 AM on December 27, 2007

The cashier is on camera during the scanning process though. If he was typing the SN in, instead of scanning thru the peak-a-boo slot, seems like it'd be obvious.
posted by nomisxid at 10:05 AM on December 27, 2007

AV, my query is more from the law enforcement side of things. They've got people willing to confess on camera to an attempted theft. Seems like an easy prosecution. Maybe it's not a felony, but it's certainly a chargable crime.
posted by nomisxid at 10:07 AM on December 27, 2007

Are they ordering the products online?
posted by cashman at 10:32 AM on December 27, 2007

Perhaps in an effort to avoid bad publicity will choose not to press charges until after it is investigated.
posted by kidbritish at 10:33 AM on December 27, 2007

I meant to say ... the store will choose not to press charges...
posted by kidbritish at 10:34 AM on December 27, 2007

AV, my query is more from the law enforcement side of things. They've got people willing to confess on camera to an attempted theft. Seems like an easy prosecution. Maybe it's not a felony, but it's certainly a chargable crime.

Turn off Law and Order! No one is taking confessions or looking at security tapes for misdemeanors.
posted by cklennon at 10:53 AM on December 27, 2007

Yikes forgot that </i>!
posted by cklennon at 10:55 AM on December 27, 2007

Wait, who is doing this? I've never heard of anyone trying to claim an empty box.
posted by klangklangston at 11:04 AM on December 27, 2007

Wouldn't an empty box weigh a lot, lot less than a box with a PS3 inside it? Who would think they could get away with that?
posted by shakespeherian at 11:07 AM on December 27, 2007

example. CKlennon, I'm talking about people who are going on TV and basically bragging to the world that they are trying to scam someone. It seems odd to me that no prosecutor sitting at home watching the news hasn't yet picked up on the scam.
Sorry I wasn't clear, I don't mean empty as in weightless, I mean empty as in doesn't-contain-the-stated-product. I've seen reports claiming boxes with bricks, a phonebook in the example above, etc etc.
posted by nomisxid at 11:12 AM on December 27, 2007

I ordered a Gameboy Advance online several years ago, and I received an empty box.

An investigation showed that UPS workers were stealing, and a new one was overnighted to me.
posted by cmgonzalez at 11:18 AM on December 27, 2007

cashman/cmongalez, I can totally see a mailorder being messed with. I'm curious about people who claim to have bought a box in-store.
posted by nomisxid at 11:36 AM on December 27, 2007

cklennon: "No one is taking confessions or looking at security tapes for misdemeanors."

Yes, they are. The police probably don't care, but management and internal loss prevention always reviews tapes of cashiers when something weird has happened. I did it yesterday. You can be sure that if it was an expensive item like a game console and the cashier was involved in fraud we would bring in the police and those security tapes would be used as evidence.
posted by rhinny at 12:07 PM on December 27, 2007

I'm sure some of these cases are legitimate consumer fraud, but I'm also sure some of these are employee theft. Not sure how they'd get around the scanning of serials, but if there's a way I'm sure someone would find it. After all, employee theft (or "inventory shrinkage") usually accounts for 48% of loss, while shoplifting only accounts for 31%.

You didn't think those receipt checks were to stop shoplifting, did you? They're to stop people working in collusion with rogue clerks not ringing up everything in the cart...
posted by sharkfu at 12:28 PM on December 27, 2007

From my observation of my own PS3, Xbox360, and Wii boxes, I notice that all three have cut-out windows that allow the salesperson to scan the serial number off the actual device inside the box

Wrong. Have another look at your Wii box, and you'll see that it just ain't so. I got one of the early models, and I've handled every revision of Wii box since, as I frequently handle them for clients.

No hole, just a sticker on the box that matches the sticker on the Wii inside.
posted by SlyBevel at 1:07 PM on December 27, 2007

Echoing what rhinny said. I did a little security work at Target, and those cameras are constantly being monitored. Additionally, the managers know when the xbox360/ps3/etcs were being returned. Those are the big-ticket items that are easy targets for fraud.

Perhaps in an effort to avoid bad publicity will choose not to press charges until after it is investigated.

I dunno. Had a co-worker who was in on a GPS scam where she was handcuffed in broad daylight and slowly walked in front of all the employees. A lot of theft comes from the inside and is a large element of security's job.
When the scamming was happened, the she used an unwitting cashier who had no idea what a GSP system even was to help out in the con.

On the con you posted, who knows? Prosecution assumes that the store knows who was in on it. If they don't, who are they going to prosecute?
posted by jmd82 at 1:22 PM on December 27, 2007

nomisxid: "example. CKlennon, I'm talking about people who are going on TV and basically bragging to the world that they are trying to scam someone."

Your example is pretty poor. I don't see anyone there who's trying to scam anyone. I only see two sets of people -- the store, and the parents -- who are both victims of someone else's scam.

Let me tell you what happened here. Person A bought a PS3, took it out of the box, photocopied the serial number barcode, taped the barcode over the little window (so it's scannable), put a phone book in the box, and neatly taped it up. Person A returns it to the store, and they did such a neat job of taping it up that the guy at the store doesn't even think it might have been opened.

Now Person B comes into the store and buys a PS3. Cashier picks up Person A's box, scans the barcode, and scans the serial number. Person B pays and leaves with their brand new PhonebookStation 3.

So no, nobody is going on TV and bragging to the world that they're trying to scam people. The people on TV are the ones who got scammed. The scammers are sitting at home playing with their PS3s.
posted by CrayDrygu at 1:29 PM on December 27, 2007

Oh, forgot to close up this loop of the story, too: why don't the store or the police go after my Person A?

Well, first, Person A paid with cash, or maybe even a stolen gift card or credit card, so you're not gonna track them down with the transaction details. Second, it's not worth your time to have your security team try and trace him down with the cameras unless it happens repeatedly. This is especially true if your cameras don't cover every inch of the parking lot (to get his plate number) -- and I'll bet you they don't. And finally, the police aren't going to spend a lot of time on theft this low either, unless you have evidence, which you don't, because it's not worth your time to track it down. Not to mention that your store budgets a certain amount of money for expected losses, and if you aren't getting too close to that limit, you're even less likely to care.

I spent four years at Best Buy, the above is based on my observation of how evidence of minor thefts from non-employees was handled.
posted by CrayDrygu at 1:34 PM on December 27, 2007

The scammers are sitting at home playing with their PS3s.

And, of course, their Wiis. Heh.
posted by davejay at 1:40 PM on December 27, 2007

yes, I'm fourteen today
posted by davejay at 1:40 PM on December 27, 2007

Cray, I take it we assume person A uses a fake ID during the return process?
I wonder if sony bricks the 'lost' ps3 if it ever tries a network game....
posted by nomisxid at 1:43 PM on December 27, 2007

"Cray, I take it we assume person A uses a fake ID during the return process?"

I've never been asked to show an ID when returning a product with a receipt. And without a receipt, I have at most been asked to write my info down on a slip of paper, leaving me free to write anything I want.
posted by CrayDrygu at 1:52 PM on December 27, 2007

That's pretty risky. Any time I take something back they seem to examine it. Interesting stuff, CrayDrygu.
posted by cashman at 2:22 PM on December 27, 2007

They're supposed to examine it. But if you can package things up so that it looks un-tampered-with (all the seals and stickers are in place, no creases in the cardboard), and if the store is busy, you've got a very good chance of them not catching it.

And if they do catch it? Make up some lame story about how someone must've been ready to put it out with the trash as you back away, and nothing will come of it. It's really not worth the store's time to pursue that, when you'll just do your best to pass it off as an honest mistake.
posted by CrayDrygu at 2:40 PM on December 27, 2007

In my experience, the people taking the return are delighted when it's a sealed return, since they don't have to look through the box to make sure everything is there, and they don't have to charge you restocking fees. They just check the seals and if they look good, they're done. And nowadays, many of these stores use the same register/service desk for returns and for new sales, so they get a line of paying customer waiting on someone who's just getting money back... lots of incentive to hurry through and not look too closely.
posted by smackfu at 4:00 PM on December 27, 2007

Nthing eomployee laziness - when I exchanged a Garmin for a different model last week, the counterfolk didn't even check to see if the one I was returning was even in the box!
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:15 PM on December 27, 2007

That's pretty risky. Any time I take something back they seem to examine it. Interesting stuff, CrayDrygu.

I know someone who pulled the scam, and indeed did have the "phonebook" discovered while he was returning it. He denied he knew anything about that (and his original story had been that he was returning the box unopened, remember), so while they knew damn well what was going on, and were pretty pissed off, they decided to refund him anyway, as they had no evidence other than common sense that he was the perp, rather than genuinely returning an unopened-but-previously-scam-returned item. I assume the manager decided it would be more trouble and liability potential than it was worth, and that this guy knew he couldn't try to pull the stunt at that store again.
posted by -harlequin- at 9:44 PM on December 27, 2007

I notice that all three have cut-out windows that allow the salesperson to scan the serial number off the actual device inside the box

As an addendum to CrayDrygu's explanation, Person X case-mods his wii/ps3, taking the guts of the device out of the plastic case and installing them instead in a carved wood case/bucket/toaster oven/whatever. Or maybe person X accidentally fried his wii/ps3, or dropped it, and has salvaged the peripherals and parts that still work, including the case.

Regardless of how Person X comes to own this extra or left-over original plastic casing, they decide to sell it on ebay, as spare parts for other case modders who are modifying their plastic case or replacement parts for people who broke theirs, etc.

Other case modders get outbidded by a bunch of Person A's, who figure that for the price of an empty case on ebay, they can put a real (though hollow) ps3/wii behind the window in the box they're returning for refund, thus ensuring success for their scam.

$50 plus shipping is a lot to pay for a ps3 case. But it's not much to pay for a ps3.
posted by -harlequin- at 10:04 PM on December 27, 2007