The Vista fails to inspire me
December 26, 2007 11:54 AM Subscribe
It's time to replace our desktop computer. After threads like this about the sluggishness of Vista, I'd prefer to get XP Pro, but it appears that some vendors, such as HP, only offer Vista. I'd rather not buy a computer with Vista and then install XP. Ideally, the new box would come with XP Pro and include a coupon for Vista that will still be valid in one or two years when Microsoft will presumably gets its act together. Does anyone have such a thing? Thanks and happy holidays!
Related question: Most of the systems I've seen reviewed that run Vista slowly have 1 GB or 2 GB of memory. Does Vista speed up with more memory, and does the specific version of Vista (Ultimate, Über, Unter...) make a difference?
Related question: Most of the systems I've seen reviewed that run Vista slowly have 1 GB or 2 GB of memory. Does Vista speed up with more memory, and does the specific version of Vista (Ultimate, Über, Unter...) make a difference?
1 GB physical memory would be the absolute minimum comfort level for the bloatware that is Vista. Most people suggest 2 GB. I'm not sure how versions would affect this, but here's a chart of the various Vistas, and it makes sense that the additional services with certain versions will require more memory to be happy. More memory simply means more space for Vista to stretch its legs with all the bells and whistles. I suspect if you could disable most of those extras, as many people do in XP, the overhead would be smaller.
Microsoft does allow a legal downgrade from Vista to XP provided you have the Business or Ultimate edition of Vista from a mass vendor like HP or something complicated like a preexisting nonactivated XP key. But upgrading from XP to Vista will always cost you (I've never heard of a coupon for upgrading, that is, as it's not in a software vendor's "best interests" to allow that).
In general, I've found that PC vendors charge the same amount for Vista and XP, if they offer both. Given Microsoft's hidden downgrade option, it may be prudent to buy a system with Vista Business/Ultimate, get the downgrade option (this in itself may be a hassle, however), then upgrade back to Vista later on. But you should get the details clarified by the vendor of your choice first, because each vendor may handle it differently.
Just be aware that if upgrading XP to Vista, you can't use that XP license again as it's been automatically converted to your Vista license (or something like that, according to the MS EULA--pretty complicated!).
posted by Ky at 12:20 PM on December 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
Microsoft does allow a legal downgrade from Vista to XP provided you have the Business or Ultimate edition of Vista from a mass vendor like HP or something complicated like a preexisting nonactivated XP key. But upgrading from XP to Vista will always cost you (I've never heard of a coupon for upgrading, that is, as it's not in a software vendor's "best interests" to allow that).
In general, I've found that PC vendors charge the same amount for Vista and XP, if they offer both. Given Microsoft's hidden downgrade option, it may be prudent to buy a system with Vista Business/Ultimate, get the downgrade option (this in itself may be a hassle, however), then upgrade back to Vista later on. But you should get the details clarified by the vendor of your choice first, because each vendor may handle it differently.
Just be aware that if upgrading XP to Vista, you can't use that XP license again as it's been automatically converted to your Vista license (or something like that, according to the MS EULA--pretty complicated!).
posted by Ky at 12:20 PM on December 26, 2007 [1 favorite]
Vista is not that bad. If you're buying a computer with up to date components, I wouldn't worry about its performance. I have a two year-old laptop with an Intel 950 integrated card, T2300 Core Duo, and 2GB of RAM and Vista Ultimate runs just fine. I'd be more worried about peripheral/software incompatibilities.
OTOH, if you're scrimping for a < $500 box, then you might reconsider Vista.
posted by mealy-mouthed at 12:26 PM on December 26, 2007
OTOH, if you're scrimping for a < $500 box, then you might reconsider Vista.
posted by mealy-mouthed at 12:26 PM on December 26, 2007
You've been hearing a lot of FUD about Vista. I've been using it for two months now and it isn't anything like as bad as the FUD says. It runs quite nicely on my new computer, which came with it preinstalled.
I think that's part of the key to a good use experience. If it comes preconfigured, then the computer company does all the work of making sure that drivers are in place and work.
I got this system from ASUS and they didn't load it up with crapware. Only maybe four or five things to delete, all of which uninstalled cleanly. Actually, my biggest headache was all the special proprietary utilities ASUS itself installed, a couple of which I had to trace down and get rid of.
(However, I am appalled that NTBackup is gone and they didn't replace it with anything. I'm going to be buying a third-party backup program in the next few days. Vista Ultimate comes with a backup program, but it backs up everything. It doesn't let you pick and choose the way NTBackup did. And none of the lesser versions of Vista come with any kind of backup at all. So these guys will get my money.)
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 12:35 PM on December 26, 2007
I think that's part of the key to a good use experience. If it comes preconfigured, then the computer company does all the work of making sure that drivers are in place and work.
I got this system from ASUS and they didn't load it up with crapware. Only maybe four or five things to delete, all of which uninstalled cleanly. Actually, my biggest headache was all the special proprietary utilities ASUS itself installed, a couple of which I had to trace down and get rid of.
(However, I am appalled that NTBackup is gone and they didn't replace it with anything. I'm going to be buying a third-party backup program in the next few days. Vista Ultimate comes with a backup program, but it backs up everything. It doesn't let you pick and choose the way NTBackup did. And none of the lesser versions of Vista come with any kind of backup at all. So these guys will get my money.)
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 12:35 PM on December 26, 2007
Response by poster: OP here - My teenaged son will play games on the new machine, so I'm thinking of getting something tricked out with 3 GB of memory and a nice graphics card.
jbickers - I have to admit I was impressed when I found I could run compiz-fusion just fine under Ubuntu on my old machine with 512 MB of memory. The new machine will ultimately be a dual boot system with some flavor of Linux.
posted by lukemeister at 12:45 PM on December 26, 2007
jbickers - I have to admit I was impressed when I found I could run compiz-fusion just fine under Ubuntu on my old machine with 512 MB of memory. The new machine will ultimately be a dual boot system with some flavor of Linux.
posted by lukemeister at 12:45 PM on December 26, 2007
There are a lot of boutiques that will build a custom computer to your specifications and install whatever OS you want on it and there will be little if any unwanted software.
There are almost certainly local shops that will do this, but there are also online shops such as Ava Direct, Puget Custom Computers, and PCs for Everyone.
It's more expensive than getting something prebuilt from HP, Dell, etc., but it gives a lot more options and ensures that you can get exactly what you're looking for without having to build it yourself, if you don't have the time or inclination to do so.
posted by camcgee at 12:46 PM on December 26, 2007
There are almost certainly local shops that will do this, but there are also online shops such as Ava Direct, Puget Custom Computers, and PCs for Everyone.
It's more expensive than getting something prebuilt from HP, Dell, etc., but it gives a lot more options and ensures that you can get exactly what you're looking for without having to build it yourself, if you don't have the time or inclination to do so.
posted by camcgee at 12:46 PM on December 26, 2007
Dell's medium/small business desktops and notebooks give you the option of either Windows XP pro/home or Vista pre-installed.
I do not think they have a coupon for Vista if you choose to upgrade later, though.
posted by i8ny3x at 12:54 PM on December 26, 2007
I do not think they have a coupon for Vista if you choose to upgrade later, though.
posted by i8ny3x at 12:54 PM on December 26, 2007
For some reason, maybe because of scaleable, flexibility issues, Dell's home/home office desktops and laptops don't have the XP or Vista option
posted by i8ny3x at 12:57 PM on December 26, 2007
posted by i8ny3x at 12:57 PM on December 26, 2007
As noted, Dell has some options with XP. Just bought one for my mother about 20 minutes ago in fact. But it's only a limited subset of their line. And there are a lot of custom shops that will build w XP. I got my main machine through buydirectpc.com and was quite happy. But you're probably paying a bit of a premium through those places. I wanted a shuttle so I didn't mind, but your mileage may vary.
posted by Naberius at 2:06 PM on December 26, 2007
posted by Naberius at 2:06 PM on December 26, 2007
Oh, and i8ny3x, the Dell I just got was a 530s (My mother's computing needs are modest...) which I found through the home section on their site.
posted by Naberius at 2:09 PM on December 26, 2007
posted by Naberius at 2:09 PM on December 26, 2007
nthing Dell. We just bought an Inspiron with XP for my stepfather.
posted by desjardins at 2:12 PM on December 26, 2007
posted by desjardins at 2:12 PM on December 26, 2007
I got a new laptop a couple of days ago with Vista. It is slower than my four-year-old XP laptop and has already crashed at least once.
posted by grouse at 2:17 PM on December 26, 2007
posted by grouse at 2:17 PM on December 26, 2007
It's not FUD, Vista is a nightmare. This coming from somebody who has to deal with 60k-ish users and has two custom patches from Microsloth (after weeks of debugging and pointing out RFC specs.). Vista is horrible, avoid. Maybe after a couple of years it will be OK, but for now... "Danger Will Robinson", avoid it like the plague.
posted by zengargoyle at 2:24 PM on December 26, 2007
posted by zengargoyle at 2:24 PM on December 26, 2007
As for the upgrade coupon, no. There were such things for a brief window after Vista was announced. To avoid quashing PC sales while buyers waited for Vista, for a while the major vendors would sell you a machine with XP and an upgrade coupon for Vista when it came out. But once Vista was launched those disappeared, and they won't be back. Actually it's kind of remarkable that you can still get an XP machine from Dell. That indicates a level of consumer backlash against Vista unlike anything Microsoft's ever had to deal with before.
posted by Naberius at 2:27 PM on December 26, 2007
posted by Naberius at 2:27 PM on December 26, 2007
If you are buying a new gaming computer, get Vista. The hottest game graphics now and in the near future will only display on Vista, not XP. Just make sure the video card will do DirectX 10. Not all do.
I have a laptop running Vista with a nice-ish video card and 2 gigs RAM. Works great. Yes, Vista is a pain in the ass. But it's main selling point is the new version of DirectX. If you get a "new" gaming computer and put XP on it....... well, then it's still an "old" gaming computer no matter what hardware you have.
posted by Ragma at 2:28 PM on December 26, 2007
I have a laptop running Vista with a nice-ish video card and 2 gigs RAM. Works great. Yes, Vista is a pain in the ass. But it's main selling point is the new version of DirectX. If you get a "new" gaming computer and put XP on it....... well, then it's still an "old" gaming computer no matter what hardware you have.
posted by Ragma at 2:28 PM on December 26, 2007
Ragma's advice is extremely poor. If you're buying a gaming machine, stick with XP. DX10 is a disaster in terms of performance. Your framerates will drop by something like half if you enable it. Even DX9 titles run substantially slower on Vista than they do on XP, and a number of games just fail outright.
There simply is no good reason to run Vista; essentially all of the 'features' are for Microsoft's benefit, not yours, particularly the extremely nasty DRM. Buy XP and stay there as long as you can. When it's no longer viable for you, reconsider what exists at that time.
posted by Malor at 2:47 PM on December 26, 2007
There simply is no good reason to run Vista; essentially all of the 'features' are for Microsoft's benefit, not yours, particularly the extremely nasty DRM. Buy XP and stay there as long as you can. When it's no longer viable for you, reconsider what exists at that time.
posted by Malor at 2:47 PM on December 26, 2007
I get excellent gaming performance from dual-booting a Mac. I have XP Pro on the other partition and it runs like a charm.
I would never use Vista for gaming, unless I had 8 GB of RAM and one of those shiny new Intel hafnium-based Core 2 Extreme processors.
Everything generally runs better with more RAM, especially Vista, which is a gigantic piece of software. Basically no desktop computers run these days without some virtual (i.e. hard drive) memory, but the more you can avoid that, the better. 3 GB would ensure that everything has lots and lots of room to mess around, but half of that will be occupied by Vista, whereas on XP you can get away with 0.5 GB to let the OS have room, and everything above that is cake. 3 GB on an XP Pro box with the rest of the hardware up to date will fly. I don't think Vista ever flies, as far as I've read; and as soon as you flip on the new UI (only available in versions above Home Basic) it takes even more horsepower.
In a year or two, the playing field will be so different that even if you could pay for an upgrade coupon, I wouldn't. Stick with XP, keep it locked down tight to avoid malware, and you should have a great machine for another couple of years, for sure, and when you feel the need to update, evaluate the situation then. Even if you still want Vista then, it'll be cheaper.
posted by blacklite at 4:00 PM on December 26, 2007
I would never use Vista for gaming, unless I had 8 GB of RAM and one of those shiny new Intel hafnium-based Core 2 Extreme processors.
Everything generally runs better with more RAM, especially Vista, which is a gigantic piece of software. Basically no desktop computers run these days without some virtual (i.e. hard drive) memory, but the more you can avoid that, the better. 3 GB would ensure that everything has lots and lots of room to mess around, but half of that will be occupied by Vista, whereas on XP you can get away with 0.5 GB to let the OS have room, and everything above that is cake. 3 GB on an XP Pro box with the rest of the hardware up to date will fly. I don't think Vista ever flies, as far as I've read; and as soon as you flip on the new UI (only available in versions above Home Basic) it takes even more horsepower.
In a year or two, the playing field will be so different that even if you could pay for an upgrade coupon, I wouldn't. Stick with XP, keep it locked down tight to avoid malware, and you should have a great machine for another couple of years, for sure, and when you feel the need to update, evaluate the situation then. Even if you still want Vista then, it'll be cheaper.
posted by blacklite at 4:00 PM on December 26, 2007
Personally I avoid Vista because of discussions like this one. When you have people saying that something is awesome on one side and it sucks on the other that really only tells you one thing: that it's performance is inconsistent from machine to machine and user to user; making it completely unacceptable as a computing platform.
It's essentially a repeat of WindowsME, where you hear many, many tales of woe, and pockets here or there of it running ''like a dream.' XP is rock-solid. Why take the gamble?
I want to point out one thing that no one has really touched on, and that's the fact that most if not all of the prominent computer sales companies (Dell, HP, Gateway, etc.) will sell you a machine with WindowsXP on it even if they don't offer it as an option provided that you place your order over the phone and specifically request to the salesperson that you want it with XP loaded on it. They won't refuse your request, and if they do, they obviously don't care about your business.
I won't bother recommending a brand to go with, as I buy the parts separately and build my own machines.
posted by Stilus at 6:11 PM on December 26, 2007
It's essentially a repeat of WindowsME, where you hear many, many tales of woe, and pockets here or there of it running ''like a dream.' XP is rock-solid. Why take the gamble?
I want to point out one thing that no one has really touched on, and that's the fact that most if not all of the prominent computer sales companies (Dell, HP, Gateway, etc.) will sell you a machine with WindowsXP on it even if they don't offer it as an option provided that you place your order over the phone and specifically request to the salesperson that you want it with XP loaded on it. They won't refuse your request, and if they do, they obviously don't care about your business.
I won't bother recommending a brand to go with, as I buy the parts separately and build my own machines.
posted by Stilus at 6:11 PM on December 26, 2007
There is no Vista FUD. There is absolutely nothing uncertain about the fear and doubt that Vista will make you suffer. Avoid.
posted by flabdablet at 6:12 PM on December 26, 2007
posted by flabdablet at 6:12 PM on December 26, 2007
If your son is a gamer, doesn't he have an opinion? My housemate bought a vista laptop at the beginning of this year, plays games on it (mostly KOTOR 2, that I've noticed) and has no complaints about it.
I'd probably get vista, and be prepared to downgrade it after a trial. You can always keep the old desktop as comparison/backup.
posted by jacalata at 6:22 PM on December 26, 2007
I'd probably get vista, and be prepared to downgrade it after a trial. You can always keep the old desktop as comparison/backup.
posted by jacalata at 6:22 PM on December 26, 2007
Response by poster: Stilus: That sounds great if they really will install XP for any machine. Online, the Dell Precisions have an XP option, but the XPS line doesn't.
jacalata: My son is just becoming a gamer, and he doesn't really have an opinion.
This discussion is making me consider Apples....
posted by lukemeister at 6:40 PM on December 26, 2007
jacalata: My son is just becoming a gamer, and he doesn't really have an opinion.
This discussion is making me consider Apples....
posted by lukemeister at 6:40 PM on December 26, 2007
Update to my statement: I actually called Dell and asked if they could pre-load any machine with XP, the answer I got was that Microsoft's current licensing agreement only allowed certain models to be preloaded with XP, I didn't want to ask about every model they had, so I just asked for ones in the XPS line:
Desktops: 210 and 720
Laptops: 1710 and 1730
So it looks like I have to amend my statement a bit, as it seems they really are forcing Vista down your throat if you don't want to buy the machine that they offer XP on. Of course, I didn't push the rep to see if he'd give in.
Also, at their website under home desktops and home laptops on the right sidebar is a "Still looking for Windows XP" link that shows their XP offerings. The 720 Desktop model was the only of the XPS line that wasn't offered online, so it's worth it to call and check, as not all models will have their XP offering displayed on their website.
The salesperson also stated that the XP pre-load option is only going to last until "Microsoft stops supporting XP." While this could mean what it says, it could also mean "until Microsoft amends our licensing agreement and forces us to stop offering XP completely."
The rep also claimed that they are "the only ones in the world building new computers with XP loaded on them." Kinda sounds like marketing fluff, but I didn't check with any other computer manufacturer so it could be true.
posted by Stilus at 2:09 PM on December 31, 2007
Desktops: 210 and 720
Laptops: 1710 and 1730
So it looks like I have to amend my statement a bit, as it seems they really are forcing Vista down your throat if you don't want to buy the machine that they offer XP on. Of course, I didn't push the rep to see if he'd give in.
Also, at their website under home desktops and home laptops on the right sidebar is a "Still looking for Windows XP" link that shows their XP offerings. The 720 Desktop model was the only of the XPS line that wasn't offered online, so it's worth it to call and check, as not all models will have their XP offering displayed on their website.
The salesperson also stated that the XP pre-load option is only going to last until "Microsoft stops supporting XP." While this could mean what it says, it could also mean "until Microsoft amends our licensing agreement and forces us to stop offering XP completely."
The rep also claimed that they are "the only ones in the world building new computers with XP loaded on them." Kinda sounds like marketing fluff, but I didn't check with any other computer manufacturer so it could be true.
posted by Stilus at 2:09 PM on December 31, 2007
Not true. I just bought a ThinkPad this month and XP was an option.
posted by grouse at 2:20 PM on December 31, 2007
posted by grouse at 2:20 PM on December 31, 2007
Well there you go. Last part of my post was just Dell marketing fluff, like I suspected.
posted by Stilus at 2:39 PM on December 31, 2007
posted by Stilus at 2:39 PM on December 31, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by mphuie at 12:19 PM on December 26, 2007