Can I get into an MBA program?
December 19, 2007 6:01 AM Subscribe
What type of people apply to a top ten MBA program? Are there $9,000-a-year college admissions consultants for this, too?
I do not work for a top (e.g., McKinsey, Sotheby's, Lehman Bros.) firm on the coasts, or go to a top ten undergrad program. Are these a necessity for admissions?
I scored high (740) on my first GMAT practice test, graduated top five percent of my class with a 3.8. I went to a "more selective" (U.S. News) school, that is probably too small to be ranked. I work in St. Louis regional company and have done very well there (24, several highly successful projects, I was recently made director-level to give a perspective).
I feel as if the only thing different from me and the people I know going to the few programs I wish to go to (Stanford, Chicago, NYU-Stern, Columbia) have crazy pedigrees. Is that how it works? I have heard that schools past the top tier drop off in quality rapidly.
Any recommendations on the college admissions consultants? I hear they are expensive, but effective in placement for undergrads. I assume such a service exists for grad school placement.
I am trying to keep this short, I apologize in advance that it came off as rather crass.
I do not work for a top (e.g., McKinsey, Sotheby's, Lehman Bros.) firm on the coasts, or go to a top ten undergrad program. Are these a necessity for admissions?
I scored high (740) on my first GMAT practice test, graduated top five percent of my class with a 3.8. I went to a "more selective" (U.S. News) school, that is probably too small to be ranked. I work in St. Louis regional company and have done very well there (24, several highly successful projects, I was recently made director-level to give a perspective).
I feel as if the only thing different from me and the people I know going to the few programs I wish to go to (Stanford, Chicago, NYU-Stern, Columbia) have crazy pedigrees. Is that how it works? I have heard that schools past the top tier drop off in quality rapidly.
Any recommendations on the college admissions consultants? I hear they are expensive, but effective in placement for undergrads. I assume such a service exists for grad school placement.
I am trying to keep this short, I apologize in advance that it came off as rather crass.
I think that you should do some additional research on b-schools and the admissions process/criteria. In my experience, yes, your GPA and GMAT matter (take the actual test before getting overly excited, my practice tests were at least 50 points higher than actual), as does your work experience. But I found that it was also a matter of, like undergrad, how well-rounded you and your experiences were. Furthermore, if you looked at the class profile for each of those schools (available online at each school's website), you would have the answer to your question of what type of people go there. Also, what does "more selective" mean? Even smaller, liberal arts schools are ranked, no?
I think your impressions are a little juvenile, I'm not sure how wide your impression of "top-tier" is, but you don't really start to see a "rapid" significant quality drop off until maybe after the top 50 or even 100. There are a lot of b-schools in the US and any school on any of those lists is not going to be a "low quality" school.
What sort of crazy pedigrees do you speak of? And how does a consultant improve that? You went to undergrad where you went and got the GPA you did. You have the work experience that you have. Maybe s/he could help with an essay, but really, b-school is hard and if you need to hire someone to write your essay, it's going to be a long, painful road ahead.
It does appear that they help prepare you prepare for the interview, which could be useful. They could probably also help you structure your resume to showcase your accomplishments most effectively. Finally, a consultant might be able to pinpoint weaknesses, like perhaps you should consider volunteering or signing up to be a mentor in your company. I guess it's hard to give a recommendation without knowing what you want the consultant to help with.
Kaplan has it though. Some googling might help you find other options (my search for "MBA admission consultant" turns up over 1.5 million results).
posted by ml98tu at 6:55 AM on December 19, 2007
I think your impressions are a little juvenile, I'm not sure how wide your impression of "top-tier" is, but you don't really start to see a "rapid" significant quality drop off until maybe after the top 50 or even 100. There are a lot of b-schools in the US and any school on any of those lists is not going to be a "low quality" school.
What sort of crazy pedigrees do you speak of? And how does a consultant improve that? You went to undergrad where you went and got the GPA you did. You have the work experience that you have. Maybe s/he could help with an essay, but really, b-school is hard and if you need to hire someone to write your essay, it's going to be a long, painful road ahead.
It does appear that they help prepare you prepare for the interview, which could be useful. They could probably also help you structure your resume to showcase your accomplishments most effectively. Finally, a consultant might be able to pinpoint weaknesses, like perhaps you should consider volunteering or signing up to be a mentor in your company. I guess it's hard to give a recommendation without knowing what you want the consultant to help with.
Kaplan has it though. Some googling might help you find other options (my search for "MBA admission consultant" turns up over 1.5 million results).
posted by ml98tu at 6:55 AM on December 19, 2007
Seconding the the other comments above, I'm not really sure how much good an admissions consultant could do except give you feedback about your application, and help you prep for the interviews. Like any consultant or coach, they are not going to be able to perform miracles, and spending $9000 will not guarantee you admission to the school of your choice.
Re ml98tu's comment above, there’s a *big* difference between the top 10 and the top 50. It’s not so much about the quality drop off in teaching as it is about what having the MBA is worth once you graduate and are trying to find a job. While the academic martial is similar across most of the b-schools in the US, having an MBA from a top-tier school (think Harvard, Salon, Wharton) will open significantly more doors for you, than say, an MBA from Babson College will.
Good luck!
posted by dyslexictraveler at 7:38 AM on December 19, 2007
Re ml98tu's comment above, there’s a *big* difference between the top 10 and the top 50. It’s not so much about the quality drop off in teaching as it is about what having the MBA is worth once you graduate and are trying to find a job. While the academic martial is similar across most of the b-schools in the US, having an MBA from a top-tier school (think Harvard, Salon, Wharton) will open significantly more doors for you, than say, an MBA from Babson College will.
Good luck!
posted by dyslexictraveler at 7:38 AM on December 19, 2007
I attended and graduated from one of those top 10 schools. In fact it was rated #1 by Newsweek when I attended. Believe me, anyone can get into these schools if you can convince them you will contribute to the learning process and will be an active participant in school activities.
I had good GMAT scores but not great. I had a 2.4 undergraduate gpa. What I had was a desire to attend, a decent 3 year work history including self employment and I interviewed well. I recommend applying, emphasizing your work accomplishments and going for an in person interview.
On the other hand, now that I have had my MBA for 16 years, I can honestly tell you I have not used it very much in the work world other than for putting on my resume. There was very little practical application of the degree for me. I should have gone to law school. It would have helped me more in business than the MBA.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 7:42 AM on December 19, 2007
I had good GMAT scores but not great. I had a 2.4 undergraduate gpa. What I had was a desire to attend, a decent 3 year work history including self employment and I interviewed well. I recommend applying, emphasizing your work accomplishments and going for an in person interview.
On the other hand, now that I have had my MBA for 16 years, I can honestly tell you I have not used it very much in the work world other than for putting on my resume. There was very little practical application of the degree for me. I should have gone to law school. It would have helped me more in business than the MBA.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 7:42 AM on December 19, 2007
MBA admissions staff strive to assemble diverse classes. There will likely be a large number of people who come from consulting, banking and engineering, but there will also be some people from "non-traditional" backgrounds: teaching, non-profit, self-employed, ranch hand, etc. You should accentuate your differences rather than try to appear like everyone else. In an interview or essay, you should detail why your experiences in school, with your employer or even your activities outside work make you different; how they will add to the MBA experience and how an MBA will help you get to the next step in your career.
Good luck.
posted by Andy's Gross Wart at 7:58 AM on December 19, 2007
Good luck.
posted by Andy's Gross Wart at 7:58 AM on December 19, 2007
Re ml98tu's comment above, there’s a *big* difference between the top 10 and the top 50. It’s not so much about the quality drop off in teaching as it is about what having the MBA is worth once you graduate and are trying to find a job. While the academic martial is similar across most of the b-schools in the US, having an MBA from a top-tier school (think Harvard, Salon, Wharton) will open significantly more doors for you, than say, an MBA from Babson College will.
Yes, agreed. I was responding strictly to school quality, not the end-value of the degree from one school vs. another.
posted by ml98tu at 8:01 AM on December 19, 2007
Yes, agreed. I was responding strictly to school quality, not the end-value of the degree from one school vs. another.
posted by ml98tu at 8:01 AM on December 19, 2007
There is a TON of material on the web to help applicants sort through this stuff (I've just finished the applications grind myself.)
Check out the Businessweek MBA forums - several admissions consultants have threads there where they answer questions just like yours, so go ahead and ask them. There is also Clearadmit, Accepted.com, GMATclub... Lurk around the sites a bit, sign up for forums, and ask your questions there of consultants, applicants, and folks who have gotten in.
As far as I can tell, your GPA and GMAT matter, but application execution and really telling a good story helps a lot. There are people who get in who don't seem to be pedigreed superstars, at least not at first glance - but maybe they wrote great essays that made them sound brilliant.
posted by Mr Bunnsy at 8:18 AM on December 19, 2007
Check out the Businessweek MBA forums - several admissions consultants have threads there where they answer questions just like yours, so go ahead and ask them. There is also Clearadmit, Accepted.com, GMATclub... Lurk around the sites a bit, sign up for forums, and ask your questions there of consultants, applicants, and folks who have gotten in.
As far as I can tell, your GPA and GMAT matter, but application execution and really telling a good story helps a lot. There are people who get in who don't seem to be pedigreed superstars, at least not at first glance - but maybe they wrote great essays that made them sound brilliant.
posted by Mr Bunnsy at 8:18 AM on December 19, 2007
I'm not really sure that Sotheby's is a "top firm", but to answer your question, plenty of people get into top programs without great brand name experience on their resumes. Really, back when I was getting to know my B-school classmates all those years ago, it was clear to me that admissions was looking for progression as much as pedigree.
That being said, almost everyone has something that drives him in-- whether it's three years as a bulge-bracket banker (model monkey), a 99th percentile GMAT, or a stellar undergrad record. If you can honestly find a way to spin (gulp) your work record, you can probably make it work for you.
Linda Abraham and Sandy Kreisberg (google them) were once upon a time the most aggressive marketers of consulting services. Whether the expenditure is worth it, I can't say. I didn't have a great pedigree at the time, I didn't use a consultant, and I got into a "top" program. At the schools you're applying to (ex-Stanford, maybe), your record is going to probably be more important than the BS you can slather on your essays.
Further, your school list doesn't seem very cohesive to me. I know that you need to cast a wide net, but try to focus on two or three schools (but apply to as many as you can reasonably afford to). Spend a day or two at each of them. Talk to students, admissions, and alumni. When you can bring anything new and insightful to the "Why do you want to go to school here" question, you'll have done more for your application than any consultant could.
Finally, your point about sticking with a top-tier school is probably valid, but you need to look at the placement reports to see which schools place people with your chosen businesses. If you want to work in operations or even for a consumer-products firm, you can probably get away with a 10-20 ranked program. Duke and UNC, for example, place a lot of people into all functions at big pharma. So if you want to market Zoloft, you don't need to kill yourself worrying about Columbia or Chicago.
posted by Kwantsar at 9:02 AM on December 19, 2007
That being said, almost everyone has something that drives him in-- whether it's three years as a bulge-bracket banker (model monkey), a 99th percentile GMAT, or a stellar undergrad record. If you can honestly find a way to spin (gulp) your work record, you can probably make it work for you.
Linda Abraham and Sandy Kreisberg (google them) were once upon a time the most aggressive marketers of consulting services. Whether the expenditure is worth it, I can't say. I didn't have a great pedigree at the time, I didn't use a consultant, and I got into a "top" program. At the schools you're applying to (ex-Stanford, maybe), your record is going to probably be more important than the BS you can slather on your essays.
Further, your school list doesn't seem very cohesive to me. I know that you need to cast a wide net, but try to focus on two or three schools (but apply to as many as you can reasonably afford to). Spend a day or two at each of them. Talk to students, admissions, and alumni. When you can bring anything new and insightful to the "Why do you want to go to school here" question, you'll have done more for your application than any consultant could.
Finally, your point about sticking with a top-tier school is probably valid, but you need to look at the placement reports to see which schools place people with your chosen businesses. If you want to work in operations or even for a consumer-products firm, you can probably get away with a 10-20 ranked program. Duke and UNC, for example, place a lot of people into all functions at big pharma. So if you want to market Zoloft, you don't need to kill yourself worrying about Columbia or Chicago.
posted by Kwantsar at 9:02 AM on December 19, 2007
Is 24 your age? That's probably too young for most top ten programs. The average age is closer to 27-29. That may sound trivial, but schools in the top ten want mature, seasoned candidates to provide a lively learning experience. I was the baby of my MBA class and I was older than 24.
The truth is that all of the top tier schools are going to turn away tons of applicants that meet the entry criteria - grades, schools, scores and resume. I'd bet that's true throughout the top 50. Most of the schools you're targeting accept less than 20% of their applicants. If your age is 3 years younger than the average applicant, that may be enough to put you on the No Admit pile. The top tier can cherry pick to make a balanced class full of different viewpoints.
I got accepted into the top tier by emphasizing that I was a unique contribution to the student population - my background was in not-for-profit management. I was the token Leftie in a conservative school. Focus on what makes you unique, but understand that your age is probably a vulnerable point.
BTW, I do think the MBA was worthwhile for me. If not for the education, then certainly for the professional contacts.
posted by 26.2 at 9:03 AM on December 19, 2007
The truth is that all of the top tier schools are going to turn away tons of applicants that meet the entry criteria - grades, schools, scores and resume. I'd bet that's true throughout the top 50. Most of the schools you're targeting accept less than 20% of their applicants. If your age is 3 years younger than the average applicant, that may be enough to put you on the No Admit pile. The top tier can cherry pick to make a balanced class full of different viewpoints.
I got accepted into the top tier by emphasizing that I was a unique contribution to the student population - my background was in not-for-profit management. I was the token Leftie in a conservative school. Focus on what makes you unique, but understand that your age is probably a vulnerable point.
BTW, I do think the MBA was worthwhile for me. If not for the education, then certainly for the professional contacts.
posted by 26.2 at 9:03 AM on December 19, 2007
I feel as if the only thing different from me and the people I know going to the few programs I wish to go to (Stanford, Chicago, NYU-Stern, Columbia) have crazy pedigrees. Is that how it works?
Don't let "crazy pedigrees" intimidate you. Although I decided not to get MBA, I come from an industry (bulge-bracket investment banking and private equity) that puts a lot of people in top 5 MBA programs and hires a lot of grads from those programs. A solid 80% of them are not very impressive at all--even if they look good on paper. If you can write a good essay that conveys some solid reasons for getting an MBA, especially at a particular school, you'll be way ahead of the pack. That's not to say you don't need good work experience and education, just don't handicap yourself right off the bat with an inferiority complex.
And don't pay much attention to the various online MBA forums. For some reason those people like to make things sound harder than they really are--kind of like the way law students try to one-up each other with the number of hours they say they study.
posted by mullacc at 10:28 AM on December 19, 2007
Don't let "crazy pedigrees" intimidate you. Although I decided not to get MBA, I come from an industry (bulge-bracket investment banking and private equity) that puts a lot of people in top 5 MBA programs and hires a lot of grads from those programs. A solid 80% of them are not very impressive at all--even if they look good on paper. If you can write a good essay that conveys some solid reasons for getting an MBA, especially at a particular school, you'll be way ahead of the pack. That's not to say you don't need good work experience and education, just don't handicap yourself right off the bat with an inferiority complex.
And don't pay much attention to the various online MBA forums. For some reason those people like to make things sound harder than they really are--kind of like the way law students try to one-up each other with the number of hours they say they study.
posted by mullacc at 10:28 AM on December 19, 2007
Coming from the midwest I can feel for your massive inferiority complex. Keep in mind that the NYT is its own little bubble and is terribly elitist and snobby when it comes to writing lifestyle articles.
The only advice I have, that has not been said, is try to get idea of school culture. Some top programs have cool, normal people and other top programs are filled with the type of people who like bragging about their undergrad GPAs. This could vary year-to-year, but I doubt it.
I also disagree with others saying that the 27-29 is the year to start applying. It seems more common to apply 2-3 years out of undergrad, but I could be wrong.
posted by geoff. at 12:21 PM on December 19, 2007
The only advice I have, that has not been said, is try to get idea of school culture. Some top programs have cool, normal people and other top programs are filled with the type of people who like bragging about their undergrad GPAs. This could vary year-to-year, but I doubt it.
I also disagree with others saying that the 27-29 is the year to start applying. It seems more common to apply 2-3 years out of undergrad, but I could be wrong.
posted by geoff. at 12:21 PM on December 19, 2007
I'm way late to this party, but one item I'd add is that before you even begin to develop your list of schools, you need to seriously think through what you want to do after business school. I'm currently wrapping up the application process and nearly every school's essay #1 is some variation of "What are your short and long term career goals and what specific resources at school X will help get you there?" Beyond just being able to write the essays, it's imperative that you have a clear idea of what you want to do because recruiting for summer internships typically begins less than a month after you arrive on campus. Though you can do any number of things with an MBA, that doesn't mean that you should (or can, really) go get one to "explore your options" or "see what interests you." As others have mentioned, even among the very top tier, there can be huge differences in focus and particularly recruiting/career prospects. e.g. NYU/Stern sends 50%+ of their students into financial services (mostly investment banking), and are typically considered on the weaker side for just about anything else (relative to the other schools on your list).
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Assuming you can get a GMAT at or above the one that you practiced at (keep practicing, keep practicing, then practice some more and then take it), I would think that you are a good candidate for good schools. Your work experience will be key - you need to emphasize that as much as possible. Full-time programs are more selective than part-time programs, but not absurdly so, so you might consider moving to a city with a great school with a part-time program. That might be more your speed anyway since you can still do it pretty quickly.
posted by iknowizbirfmark at 6:33 AM on December 19, 2007