Did I really just pay for this class?

December 17, 2007 3:44 PM

Is it possible to dispute a grade?

My first semester back in college (I'm an older student switching careers) I would have a 4.0 if it weren't for 1 course (1 out of 6). I got a C in said course. Now if I haden't studied, not gone to class, had not read the text book, and had been a slacker I would know that I deserved it and wouldn't complain. I studied, never missed a class, and read the text book. But the thing is, this class was HORRIBLE! The professor would always get side-tracked and start going off on rants against religion, how the pope was a nazi, that children should be killed because they are useless, and how marriage is stupid. While I have no problem with a professor having very strong opinions about a matter, I do have a huge problem with a professor devoting a total of maybe 5 minutes to course content and spending the rest of the time lecturing/ ranting (seriously, when I say ranting I mean ranting to the point of sweating and shaking). The tests this professor wrote were seriously incomprehensible and the class average was an F on all of the tests. I'm not sure what sort of recourse I have here. Any thoughts?

posted by MayNicholas to education (36 comments total)

Every school has a system for disputing grades, and every school's system is different. Your best bet is to read your student handbook, check the school's website, or contact your Office of Student Affairs (or whatever your school's equivalent is).
posted by indyz at 3:48 PM on December 17, 2007

I'm not sure what sort of recourse I have here. Any thoughts?

Burn your transcript. No joke. Don't give money to the school. Transfer.

Education is one of the best investments you can make — don't shortchange yourself or your career goals.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:48 PM on December 17, 2007

Well, where do you go to school? Have you looked at their grading policies? Talked with your advisor?
posted by boo_radley at 3:48 PM on December 17, 2007

1) How long ago was this?
2) Can you contact the department at the university to find out their policy, or if said prof still works there?
posted by mdonley at 3:49 PM on December 17, 2007

Are you aiming for education beyond this - ie, this is an undergraduate course and you're going to grad school?

If not, don't bother. Your grades are great when you're not in a screwy class; your screwy class is unlikely to repeat itself; nobody, and I mean nobody will care what your grade is in this class. They might care a little about your overall GPA, or GPA within your major, and that's all. Roll your eyes and move on.
posted by Tomorrowful at 3:49 PM on December 17, 2007

talk to the dean. if you are an undergrad, this is probably the "dean of undergraduate education". start there. if you have tests from the class, bring them as examples. also, if there are many people in this situation, get them to complain about the class as well.
posted by laminarial at 3:52 PM on December 17, 2007

I don't know how to respond constructively. What, if not pope-Naziness, child murder, and the stupidity of marriage, was this course supposed to be about?
posted by gum at 3:53 PM on December 17, 2007

My school has a process, but it is extremely onerous and few students are willing to go through it. It is found in the student code. If you can get a group of fellow students together, it will be more effective.

If anything, I've learned to sign up for the max amount of classes and drop at the first sign of trouble.
posted by melissam at 3:55 PM on December 17, 2007

Talk to the department chair, or dean if you can. Find out if there are other students in your class who are in the same boat, form a coalition, and go in for a meeting together (or at least get their names and e-mail to verify). I don't know if you'll be able to get your grade changed, as it depends on the school policy - sometimes you can petition a grade recalculation. Did you have other grades in the class? Do you have the syllabus? Bring in whatever documentation you can, and prepare a good argument (hopefully with student allies).

I had a professor like this once (actually, a whole lot worse!). Almost everyone in the class gave their name for when a few of us sat and spoke with the department chair. Our grades were never changed, but the professor's contract to teach at the university wasn't renewed. Is the prof tenured? Hopefully, not...

In any case, ratemyprofessors.com - it's not just for students, but for professors to check each other out. Help other students out by letting them know what they're getting into by leaving informative comments - official university evaluations are a crock of shit, usually (and unfortunately).

Note: I've had some truly wonderful, life-changing professors. Others that rubbed me the wrong way, but that's life, it's ok. And one truly, horrific, inept one. Ones like that deserve to have their shittiness brought into the open.

Also: Before you do anything, talk to the prof!
posted by raztaj at 3:56 PM on December 17, 2007

the one piece of sound advice I can offer:
work your way up. Begin with the prof, then the Dean and then, if possible, provost or dean of student affairs. Do not go to the top people first.
posted by Postroad at 4:01 PM on December 17, 2007 [1 favorite]

The course was in theories of personality. I am trying to get into grad school, which is why my GPA is so important to me right now. Most of the other professors that I have spoken to about this (I never mentioned the other professor's name or the course- but they all knew exactly who I was speaking about) just roll their eyes about it (not at me, just about how commonly they hear this complaint.
posted by MayNicholas at 4:01 PM on December 17, 2007

I hate to be the voice of nastiness, but your question was so poorly written, so riddled with errors and so lacking in pertinent details* that it comes across much more as an insane rant than as a well-reasoned query. If you do dispute this grade, I hope you have a much more coherent delineation of the details, because in a loony professor versus loony student battle, loony professor will surely win.

*What was the subject of the class? What school or what kind of school? How long had the professor been teaching? Did other students receive "A" or "B" grades? And so on.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 4:05 PM on December 17, 2007 [2 favorites]

MayNicholas, simply forget the pope-Nazi professor and build relationships with the eye-rolling professors. They're sympathetic, and their respect for you will grow if you just move on and take their classes instead. It's your application statement and their recommendation letters that will get you into graduate school, not the lack of anomalies on your transcript. Believe me, the application committee is well aware that pope-Nazi professors occasionally leave a blighty spot on a transcipt.
posted by gum at 4:05 PM on December 17, 2007

All schools have a mechanism for this kind of dispute.

Many schools also have academic counsellors who might advise you on how/whether to proceed. Find out if yours does and make an appointment.

"My first semester back in college (I'm an older student switching careers)"

How many years ago did you take this course? This will obviously depend on the procedures of your college, but be prepared for the possibility that it was too long ago, and the mark cannot be altered. (If the mark was unfair, why didn't you contest it when you got it?)
posted by Count Ziggurat at 4:07 PM on December 17, 2007

This is a course I just finished as part of returning to school. I recieved an A in all of my other courses this semester.
posted by MayNicholas at 4:11 PM on December 17, 2007

The class average for this course is a 56%-F.
posted by MayNicholas at 4:13 PM on December 17, 2007

Typically under official grade-appeal processes, your first step is necessarily to discuss your problem with the instructor to be advised how the grade was determined. If you are not happy with the answer then you file the formal appeal. You can not go over their head.

I hate to say it but the time to deal with this was when you noticed a problem, not after you received a grade you didn't like. Quite truthfully your appeal doesn't look that good unless you can prove students weren't taught to curriculum.
posted by loiseau at 4:16 PM on December 17, 2007

Is the course offered in other semesters by other professors? Often you can retake a same course code course for an average of the two grades or even grade replacement. Not that this is your first step, but it's something to look into to keep yourself from panicking.

If basically the whole class failed, that's a problem that probably needs to be pushed up past the professor, by as many people in the class as possible.
posted by jacquilynne at 4:23 PM on December 17, 2007

It sounds like you're more worried about the grade than the quality of the class, and I'm curious whether you would have considered complaining about this professor if you had received an A. I'm also curious why you stuck with the class so long if it truly was so awful. Most schools have a few weeks at the beginning of the semester where you can drop or switch classes without it showing up on your transcript.

Contest it now, while it's still fresh, and see if other students are going to do the same. Talk to the professor, the department head, the dean, your advisor, all of the above, whoever. Prepare as much evidence as you can. If the C still stands, move on, and in the future ask around about other professors before taking their classes, and switch out of poor-quality classes early on.

(And if/when you dispute the grade, don't bring up the "but I got an A in all my other classes!" - you'll just sound entitled.)
posted by Metroid Baby at 4:28 PM on December 17, 2007

The main obstacle I'd imagine is a question of why you didn't do something sooner. Make sure you're prepared to answer this. (Arguing that you were a "new" returning student, and that you thought you could deal with it, may be a good tact to take.)

While there's strength in numbers, I also think you might get by the opposite way: it's easy for them to change one grade, but they might have a problem with changing a whole class's grades. The fact that the class average was a 56% is indicative of a serious problem if you ask me. If you can get a copy of some of some of the tests, you may bolster your case.

This confirms my theory that psychology professors are among the people that would be most interesting to analyze psychologically.

Oh, let the record show that the Pope joined the Hitler Youth, but did so because he was legally forced to, and is described as an "unenthusiastic" member. I'm not sure that qualifies as a Nazi.
posted by fogster at 4:41 PM on December 17, 2007

You started a bit late. I had a bad teacher who who change the curriculum and do all kinds of crazy things, he didn't fit with the school apparently. I went with a group of students during the mid-term to complain. The administration told us all to wait until after grades came out. I got the feeling that enough people complained and it was so well documented they pressured the teacher to give everyone acceptable grades so that no one would complain (I got a B+ or A-, which is hard to argue against).

Anyway, some advice:

- This process is made to be hard, make sure you want to do this. Talk to your academic adviser about how bad this really is. It sounds like you might already have done this.

- Document everything. Every test date, how it corresponds to the curriculum, every piece of paper you turned in, every time he handed something out, every time he mentioned a date or something that could be verifiable. Go through your planner, go through your e-mails and assignments. Be scrupulous. If the curriculum says "Mid-term Test - 50 points, 25% of grade on Nov. 12," and it was given on Nov. 8 or it was actually 60 points, make sure you note the discrepancy.

- Gather fellow students. If the majority of the class is failing you are not the only angry person. Someone is most likely losing a lot more than you are, in terms of scholarship or aid. Gather motivated students and tell them what you've documented. Try to figure out if there are any relatives or friends in the administration.

- Make it known that you want to work with the school to correct this and would be willing to take the class again, have the work graded by another teacher, etc. I have heard that they get departments together and grade material turned in, at least in some cases. Make sure your work was up to this level. For example: One of the kids in this class began writing stupid, nonsensical things on his tests like, "You'll never read this," or other childish things. They would have not been re-graded favorably (we were told).

If this is a crazy teacher you probably aren't the first to know this. Keep an eye on fighting the good fight, and try to make friends with someone sympathetic in the administration. Someone who will fight the fight for you and advise you. This is really important as the case really lies on your shoulders to prove you have been wronged.

I don't know how to emphasize how not fun this situation can get. I have heard of lawyers getting involved in egregious cases. That is why I recommend documenting everything and showing how serious you are taking it. Not as a threat, but to show your claims or not frivolous or out of spite.
posted by geoff. at 4:51 PM on December 17, 2007

Also if you spoke to the teacher in any capacity (quickly after class, during class), expressing your dismay, that helps. Anything that looks more like, "Oh shit, I have an F!" and running to change it at the last minute is going to go heavily against you, whether you are right or not.
posted by geoff. at 4:52 PM on December 17, 2007

As some others have mentioned, the office/policy for disputing grades does vary by school, and will be documented.

Also, if you are unable to have the grade changed or stricken, your school may have a procedure that allows you to retake a class and either have the new grade replace or at least be averaged with the old grade. If there is another instructor teaching it during other semesters, you may be able to take it then.

Some advice for dealing with the process:

* Always keep your cool. Yes, the professor is terrible, and behaved in an altogether inappropriate fashion. However, getting visibly upset during the process will do you no good. It appears that you have been cautious about spreading this professor's name around. Good. You don't want to aggravate the situation.

* Search out the formal procedures. Follow them. If they involve meeting with the professor first, be as nice as possible. Go in with a non-emotional, non-accusatory request. If you don't think you can deal with it, consider some of the other people mentioned below.

* Document the specifics. If you have the tests, and can look at them with an unbiased eye (or have someone else do so) and can identify questions that are not comprehensible or completely irrelevant to the course or the like, it will be good to note.

* Find others who have the same complaint. If the class was that terrible, it is likely that other students are equally as irritated. If you can document a pattern across students that will be helpful.

* Organize your protest. You do not want to go into this sounding like a) a crazy person, b) a cry baby, or c) a jerk. ESPECIALLY in the early stages. The people you deal with early on (at the department level) will be important in the process. They may be able to help you deal with issues quickly, or may play a role if this gets to higher levels. Be sure they see you as a reasonable person making a reasonable request.

* Talk with an advisor about the issue. Ask about the procedure (in addition to looking it up yourself). Remember the first bullet point.

* Talk informally with the department's head of undergraduate studies (bigger universities will have them). Feel them (and other faculty) out about the situation without coming across as confrontational. They may be able to help make things move easily.


Bottom line is that just as in every workplace, there are some bad professors. If they are truly terrible, their colleagues (or bosses) know it already. Much more commonly, there are students who expect the world to revolve around them and will make outlandish demands without reason. PLEASE NOTE: I'm not saying that you fit this category, but it is important to realize that the people you will deal with will have spent too much time dealing with cry babies (and their parents) who will demand better grades because... well, just because.

It is important to set yourself apart from the crybaby demographic. Be professional, be prepared.

Also, keep in mind that to some extent it is your duty to let the appropriate people know what is going on. If this professor is going through some issues that are interfering with his ability to teach, his bosses (at the dept and dean's level) need to know. He will be teaching other classes, and if he is really that terrible it is important that this is known.

I hesitate to bring this up, as you describe really outrageous behavior, but you should be sure that you haven't misinterpreted a particularly creative/Socratic/whatever instructor's style.
posted by i love cheese at 4:53 PM on December 17, 2007

You say, "The class average for this course is a 56%-F." Do you mean to indicate that about half the students in the course received a grade of F? If so, that will be a big red flag; if I gave a class half F's, and someone complained to a dean about it, the dean would definitely be wondering what was wrong with my class, not what was wrong with my students. That is not, in any sense of the word, a normal grade distribution. I would consider bringing this up with whatever your university calls the director of undergraduate studies; but be prepared, have data, and if possible bring some other students with you who also suffered through this course. Your main point is "half the students got F's." That's what sticks out. Not "I got an F and I didn't deserve it" or "The professor spent all their time talking about stuff that wasn't on the exam" because those are complaints one hears all the time, and which often prove unfounded.
posted by escabeche at 5:04 PM on December 17, 2007

At most large schools, there will be an Ombuds Office setup basically to resolve disputes using a 3rd party. E.g. the ombuds offices at my alma maters.

While we'd all like to believe that a dean or department head will be impartial, they might have more loyalty to the faculty than a (rightly, it sounds) student complaining about a mark. In my experience in academia, for every legitimate complaint about a mark, there's at least a dozen that aren't. As everyone above has said, stay professional and focus on that fact that you feel you were treated unfairly, not that you "need" this mark for something (even though you do).
posted by Nelsormensch at 5:05 PM on December 17, 2007

1. How do you know that half the class received Fs? Did the professor post the grades in public somewhere? (This is now forbidden on many campuses, thanks to the joy of FERPA rules.) I'm not being snarky; if you want to make this claim, you need to be able to document it.

2. I agree that having F as the class average indicates that there's something wrong with the instructor.

3. As everyone else has said, follow your school's official procedures, which 99.99% of the time require you to start with the instructor. Do not leapfrog, or you'll undermine yourself.

4. You will have to be willing to put your complaint in writing. One of the reasons administrators frequently cannot do anything about "problem" faculty is that many students will complain vocally, but then refuse to sign their name to an official grievance.

5. Second escabeche: your "need" is neither here nor there. Most admins will immediately tune out if you start talking about "need.
posted by thomas j wise at 5:27 PM on December 17, 2007

Be careful and be prepared and well researched and stay calm, my mother went back to school and had an instructor who she felt (and other students) did not do an acceptable job teaching (slow at grading and giving class feedback, generally not doing a great job conveying information). My mother started complaining and other students backed out on the complaints and in the end my mother managed to get kicked out of the school (she has trouble with authority figures generally speaking). This sort of result I hope is not the norm but it is something to consider. I personally would take the C and move on (and be sure to avoid this professor in all further classes if possible)
posted by estronaut at 5:30 PM on December 17, 2007

As a former instructor I can tell you that most students with c's and d's do appeal their grades these days. I would talk to the professor before you make a formal complaint. From his perspective that fact that you read the book, showed up and studied does not mean that he has to give you a decent grade. A c is technically a passing grade.

If I were he, I would want you to outline what you did learn in the course, and make a case for how your exam shows mastery of the basic concepts of the course. If you do this respectfully, there is a good chance he will raise your grade. Come prepared, possibly with typed notes for him to review.

I know this next bit will sound harsh, but if he was such an awful professor, you should have dropped the course, or went to see him earlier. Challenging his authority/competence is basically declaring war on him. Even the most talented and professional instructors are challenged from time to time, often for very poor reasons. I'm not saying they have all the power and you should kowtow to them. I'm just saying they have experience in these situations. So keep your head and decide how important this is to you. One c isn't going to ruin your chances at grad school.
posted by gesamtkunstwerk at 5:44 PM on December 17, 2007

I don't think I will dispute it. I think I am more angry about the fact that I am paying for my education and I has in overload this semester (my choice, I know) and this class wasn't worth the money. I thought about dropping it, but that made me feel like a quitter, so I didn't. I really had hoped it would get better. He even said at the start of semester that he was nearing retirement and didn't give a crap. I didn't think he was serious.
posted by MayNicholas at 5:59 PM on December 17, 2007

Bitter, tired academics really are a nightmare. There's no shame in leaving a course after the first few lectures. Good luck next semester.
posted by gesamtkunstwerk at 6:11 PM on December 17, 2007

Don't forget to leave descriptive, accurate comments at rate my professors and encourage your classmates to also.
posted by craniac at 6:24 PM on December 17, 2007

I thought about dropping it, but that made me feel like a quitter, so I didn't.

The one and only B I ever received in college was in a course I felt I should have dropped early on but didn't because of my stupid, stupid pride.

University education is not about learning, studying, becoming a better person... any of that crap. If you want to learn, you go to trade school. If you want to secure a position at a top-tier graduate school, it's purely about playing the numbers. You're smart enough to have figured that out already. Don't get mugged by your own ego. You're paying big bucks and working hard for those GPA numbers; if you feel like you're not going to walk with at least a 3.0, drop the course. So you've already spent months studying and dealing with his shit? So you've already spent a couple grand on the course? Don't matter a whit.

Think of it like an investor might think of an item in their portfolio: it doesn't matter that you're in the red. The key is being smart enough to acknowledge your bad choices and bail out early. Yes, it smarts something fierce to back down from a good fight. But you tried playing it the "right" way and you see what it got you: deeper in the red. Were I you, I would chalk this up to experience and let it go. You don't want a reputation to follow you around from professor to professor... it will only hurt you in the end.

Let this be the one real lesson you learned from the course.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 7:07 PM on December 17, 2007

University education is not about learning, studying, becoming a better person... any of that crap

Ouch. College can be a great experience, as can aspects of graduate school. Even courses you don't do well in.
posted by gesamtkunstwerk at 7:26 PM on December 17, 2007

...seriously, were you in my Ancient Civilizations class this semester? The the-pope-is-a-Nazi thing sounds familiar.

Good luck.
posted by moonlet at 7:52 PM on December 17, 2007

Don't waste your time and energy on this. Drop it and move on. Even if you end up with your grade raised, your time will still probably have been better spent

You want to go to grad school? You're doing the right things. Ignore this course and maintain contacts with the other profs that rolled their eyes. Ask those profs for recommendations when the time comes. Ask them to address the C if they think it needs addressing -- if it's one C in a string of A's and good test scores, nobody but nobody will give a damn that you had that one C, so pointing it out to people would be foolish.

If you go to grad school, drop the "feeling like a quitter" thing. Pronto. A willingness to butt out and call it even is a useful trait for graduate school and academic life, and throwing good after bad is just as bad an idea with time as it is for money.

Random stuff:

I'm guessing you know that the class average is a 56 from a blackboard system or similar. But, unless you happen to know everyone's letter grades, that doesn't necessarily tell you about what letter grade the class averaged. For all I know sitting here, maybe it was just a class with hard tests and a big curve, where a 70 is an A. Shit, half of the physics majors I knew as an undergrad would have been thrilled to score in the heady heights of the 50s.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:12 PM on December 17, 2007

When I was teaching, the parents of one of my students talked to the department chair to request a grade change on the student's behalf. It was changed without anyone even asking me why the student received a D (which meant the student could not advance in the program).

You received a C. That was once known as "average". Live with it. (If it prevents your advancement in the program of your choice, do not bring in your parents. Ask the professor why you received a C.)

Even if you go to grad school, one C does not a non-acceptance make. Nor does a 4.0 make an acceptance.

I've known faculty you simply refuse to give A's. Imagine that.
posted by Dick Paris at 10:39 PM on December 17, 2007