Comments on: Pretty harsh words

Question: Pretty harsh words

LobsterMitten — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:45:25 -0800

Seeking a word: Is there a term other than "euphemism" for couching an insult in fancy-sounding words, so your insult sounds less harsh to the inattentive ear?

A student of mine is confused about what "euphemisms" are. The example we're looking at is "Mr. Jones is a notorious zealot". To my student, those words are unfamiliar, so he feels like they are cloaking the speaker's true insult in $10 words. Now, "notorious zealot" isn't a euphemism. In fact it's a harsh thing to say. But is there a word for what my student is getting at -- dressing up one's insults?

By: twiggy

twiggy — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:46:55 -0800

Innuendo?

By: maudlin

maudlin — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:49:00 -0800

Left-handed compliment?

By: sneakin

sneakin — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:50:51 -0800

I always thought innuendo meant anything oblique, not necessarily disparaging. That said, it usually is used to describe statements that are either negative or sexual, I guess. Not an answer, sorry. But a contribution at the least.

By: Blazecock Pileon

Blazecock Pileon — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:50:53 -0800

Loaded.

By: sneakin

sneakin — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:52:23 -0800

I think a left handed compliment is something that is at once complimentary and insulting ie "You're pretty good at this for someone who doesn't know what's going on."

By: sneakin

sneakin — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:56:36 -0800

I finally have a contribution that is not just dismissing other people's contributions: I always think of the word pointed as what you're describing. Ex: "Francine had some pointed words about Beth's outfit." It's like a politer way of saying that someone was snarky or nasty. At least to me.

By: thehmsbeagle

thehmsbeagle — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:56:48 -0800

I tend to think of "euphemism" as something like "an expression that makes an impolite topic acceptable for polite company": "streetwalker" for "whore", etc.

This is the opposite, yes? Saying something impolite, but in a fancy way? Something mean, with a smile? How about "veiled insult"?

By: LobsterMitten

LobsterMitten — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 21:57:05 -0800

Yeah, these are all sort of in the general area, but not quite on target... I've been writing a comment on this student's paper but have been stalled for 1/2 hour now, trying to figure out how to explain what he's thinking of when he's mistakenly using the word "euphemism". Argh.

Would also accept pithy multi-word phrases.

By: kisch mokusch

kisch mokusch — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 22:00:32 -0800

I know what you mean. Like in the movie Studio 54 when the kid is called a troglodyte he accepts it as a compliment, not knowing what the word means.

Other than "behaving like a conceited prick", I've got nothing.

Left-handed compliment?
heh, I've never heard that. I've always heard back-handed compliment

By: konolia

konolia — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 22:01:31 -0800

Backhanded compliment? Veiled insult? Damning with faint praise?

By: Sticherbeast

Sticherbeast — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 22:04:29 -0800

Obfuscated insult?

By: Maxwell_Smart

Maxwell_Smart — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 22:10:42 -0800

Circumlocution?

By: ludwig_van

ludwig_van — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 22:11:00 -0800

I don't think any of the suggestions describe the sentence in question. But I don't really understand what we're trying to describe. "Mr. Jones is a notorious zealot" is a straightforward statement. I don't see anything being cloaked or obfuscated there at all. Are you trying to get at what kisch mokusch is saying -- insulting someone with a word they don't understand? Maybe this student is confused not because he was thinking of some other term besides "euphemism," but because he doesn't know the meaning of notorious and/or zealot.

By: sfkiddo

sfkiddo — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 22:19:37 -0800

Hmm. "Mr. Jones is a notorious zealot" doesn't fit the euphemism bill because a zealot is by definition something of a fanatic who could be notorious.

A euphemism is: Dad passed on; Grandma went to a better place (aka dead).

Back-handed compliment: That looks so fabulous on someone like you.

Not sure how to define, but hilarious (from Stephen Fry, sic): "What a lovely little white [wine]! I wonder how they got the cat to crouch over the bottle."

By: idiotfactory

idiotfactory — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 22:20:17 -0800

diplomacy

By: eritain

eritain — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 22:23:00 -0800

Second ludwig_van. I don't feel like the example and the description match. The description sounds like a veiled insult, but the example is plain old description—a bit forceful, certainly distinct, lots of character in the style. But no, as near as I can learn, the audience's failing to understand does not constitute a figure of rhetoric on the speaker's part.

By: LobsterMitten

LobsterMitten — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 22:32:22 -0800

Right - the student feels like "notorious" and "zealot" are very fancy words because he has a limited vocabulary. He says, the person using these words is trying to insult Mr Jones without having it be obvious that he's insulting him. The person is choosing these fancy words to make it sound more respectable, and less harsh, but really it's still harsh.

His idea is that the diction, the word choice, is meant to give the speaker respectability and maybe some remove from the mean things he's saying. Now, this is a phenomenon I recognize, and can describe wordily (as in the preceding sentence) but I have the sense that there's a term/phrase for this kind of rhetorical move.

(I'm a little burnt-out right now, so am having a hard time coming up with an example that works for people with better vocabularies. Suggestions welcome on that front too.)

By: parmanparman

parmanparman — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 22:32:53 -0800

aspersions?

By: LobsterMitten

LobsterMitten — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 22:34:45 -0800

That is, the specific example is really just a plain insult/openly negative description. The student feels like it is high-falutin' because those words are unfamiliar to him. Setting aside the merits of the specific example, the phenomenon the student is getting at is a real one.

By: scarabic

scarabic — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 22:55:23 -0800

There should be a good word for "veiled insult" but it's not coming to me. Barb, implication, innuendo all seem 50% right...

Do you mean subtly implying an insult? As in "subtext?" Or do you simply mean dressing an insult in flowery language? It's one thing to say "she's a messy lay" versus "her carnal enthusiasm far outstrips her talent in its application."

By: occhiblu

occhiblu — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 22:56:40 -0800

Talking over his head?

By: PhatLobley

PhatLobley — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 22:57:07 -0800

I'd call it being a prick. It's just showing off that you're smarter than the person you're insulting.

I do this sometimes. And when I do, I'm a prick.

By: mosk

mosk — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 23:04:05 -0800

Misdirection? (Echoes of Maxwell_Smart's circumlocution, above.)

By: Flamingo

Flamingo — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 23:04:25 -0800

ad hominem attack? lying between one's teeth? hyperbole? pleonasm? parrhesia?

these and many more here!

(hope it helps.)

By: occhiblu

occhiblu — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 23:07:38 -0800

Other words coming to mind that might jog something, or work instead:

mocking
scorn
disdain
pretension
taunting
sneering
boastful
self-aggrandizing

By: inconsequentialist

inconsequentialist — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 23:26:02 -0800

Something like Shakespearean insults.

By: Tacos Are Pretty Great

Tacos Are Pretty Great — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 23:54:02 -0800

I call it Metafilter.

--

"Reverend Phelps is a notorious zealot." That sentence isn't softened, made diplomatic, obfuscated or at all shaded by the choice of vocabulary. It's perfectly accurate and true.

As such, I'm not sure which phenomena he's attempting to refer to:

1) The use of unnecessarily grand language to attempt to speak over somebody else's head. (note: this can also be done with jargon.)

2) The use of seemingly neutral or positive words as pejoratives, like describing a horrifically flawed idea as being "fascinating", "creative" or "original".

By: Ambrosia Voyeur

Ambrosia Voyeur — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 00:04:18 -0800

grandiloquent sniping?

By: mumkin

mumkin — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 00:05:33 -0800

Your student wouldn't say this, but insofar as he believes that the speaker's word choice is obscuring their meaning, "sesquipedalian charientism" might just describe it. Or perhaps simply asteism.

By: Rumple

Rumple — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 00:10:01 -0800

snark

By: onoclea

onoclea — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 00:11:24 -0800

ostentatiousness? grandiloquence?

By: salvia

salvia — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 00:18:04 -0800

Uh... tryin'... not quite there... gotta go to bed... Assuming I understand you, here's what I have so far:

"This isn't exactly a euphemism, which usually involves vague or indirect words. ___"

He just dressed up his disdain with ten-dollar words.
This is just an insult polished for polite company.
He delivers a direct and clear insult. He just costumed it in fancy verbiage.
This is a direct insult, just delivered with rhetorical flourishes.
He just insulted him with words from some cocktail party.

high falutin', courtly, gentlemanly, polite, civil, etc., etc.
insult, aspersion, contumely, disdain, contempt, disregard, etc.
vocabularly, cant, jargon, diction, wording, etc., etc.

By: onoclea

onoclea — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 00:21:08 -0800

(ah, Ambrosia Voyeur, I should've previewed. Neat word...)

By: fermion

fermion — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 00:27:21 -0800

I think mumkin's got it with charientism and asteism. The Superior Person's Book of Words refers to this kind of thing as "The Insult Concealed."

By: salvia

salvia — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 00:39:50 -0800

Hmm, on second read, you had phrases shorter than the ones I was playing around with. Time for bed!

I'm still not sure that "notorious zealot" couldn't be considered a euphemism if what was meant was "FBI Most Wanted convicted terrorist pscyho crazed assassin." Depending on what is really meant, saying someone is known negatively as a fervent proponent of something could be a mild gloss over a harsh topic. Google's second result for zealot is "zealot.com, for people who are zealous about their hobby." So that word seems to have a fairly ambiguous connotation. But the general question is interesting.

By: melissa may

melissa may — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 00:42:47 -0800

Is verbal condescension too broad for what you are trying to get at?

If not, I'd say: sophisticated, high-minded, polite, or skillful insult, take your pick. Or something expressing verbal mastery, such as artful abuse.

By: sushiwiththejury

sushiwiththejury — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 01:02:00 -0800

nice-nelly is a synonym of euphemism.

however:

euphemism: n., a mild or less direct word substituted for one that is harsh or blunt when referring to something unpleasant or embarrassing.

unpleasant or embarrassing != insulting
i.e similar to what ludwig_van and eritain said.

what is the student's first language? what else does he/she speak?
one of us might have an idiom or a proverb that hits home.

how about the latin 'suaviter in modo, fortiter in re' or 'an iron fist in a velvet glove'?

you could get your student to play with the always amusing euphemism generator.

By: flod logic

flod logic — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 01:04:53 -0800

Disingenuous?

By: LobsterMitten

LobsterMitten — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 01:18:29 -0800

what is the student's first language?

English, just not very well read. He's especially fluent in sports cliches.

By: mumkin

mumkin — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 02:05:15 -0800

Well, I still think asteism is where it's at, but unfortunately it's gone and become fairly archaic. Are you wanting a word in common use today? It's time to light up the hatsignal.

By: cgc373

cgc373 — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 04:17:26 -0800

So the sentences you want to write, LobsterMitten, are something like, "What you, student, are calling a euphemism isn't one. A euphemism replaces harsh words to sound more polite: piss becomes make water. You are talking about [insert word or phrase here], which is when a person uses unfamiliar vocabulary to hide their disrespect." Am I understanding why you want a specific word or phrase correctly?

By: ubiquity

ubiquity — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 04:50:16 -0800

Someone asked earlier what the opposite of a euphemism is. It's a dysphemism, where an unpleasant term is substituted for a neutral one. Example: asking for "bovine mammary excretion" instead of milk.

By: Meatbomb

Meatbomb — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 04:55:51 -0800

I'd need to see more context to agree that this is a case of "a person us[ing] unfamiliar vocabulary to hide their disrespect". Where I shop those are really only $2.99 words, not $10 words.

"Student, this isn't a euphemism, they are just words you are not familiar with."

By: Carol Anne

Carol Anne — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 05:08:03 -0800

The words used are "over his head."

By: Skorgu

Skorgu — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 05:10:56 -0800

I think condescension is actually a pretty good choice here. It's reasonably accurate without breaking the bank with more specific archaic terms.

It's not just students who have problems with the concept of euphamisms. I had a sociology teacher who swore blind that "friendly fire" was a euphamism.

By: DrtyBlvd

DrtyBlvd — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 05:14:27 -0800

It's a "Couched Compliment" on one hand, a straight-forward insult on the other.

"$10 words" doesn't change what it is, just the way it's said, no?

By: that girl

that girl — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 05:27:37 -0800

I had a teacher who claimed having accomplished this by calling one of his not-so-smart jock classmates a cretin. Said jock considered this a compliment until he found out and likely beat up my teacher.

However, he never had a specific term for this. I might consider it "clever."

By: hermitosis

hermitosis — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 05:29:36 -0800

Throwing shade.

By: filmgeek

filmgeek — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 06:00:50 -0800

I'm coming in very late. When you go to teach this to your student Lobstermitten...make sure to find examples that involve sports.

By: ersatz

ersatz — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 06:08:37 -0800

By: Uther Bentrazor

Uther Bentrazor — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 06:13:38 -0800

Disingenuous is a good word for what the student is describing, even if what he is describing isn't an example of it.

By: GrammarMoses

GrammarMoses — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 06:19:22 -0800

Another vote for asteism ("a polite and ingenious manner of deriding another" seems to describe this, though it's not really all that ingenious). In my daily life, though, I'd classify this phenomenon as an Erudite Dis.

By: tkolar

tkolar — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 06:27:25 -0800

Snootiness is a possibility.

(I'm a little burnt-out right now, so am having a hard time coming up with an example that works for people with better vocabularies. Suggestions welcome on that front too.)

Many of the posters in this thread are transadorian ungulates.

By: hermitosis

hermitosis — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 06:30:19 -0800

Now, "notorious zealot" isn't a euphemism. In fact it's a harsh thing to say. But is there a word for what my student is getting at -- dressing up one's insults?

In the absence of a really accurate term to describe this, I think it's important that you just impress upon your student that this is really just how educated people talk; a greater vocabulary gives one a wider palette to express oneself from, whether one is building someone up or tearing them down.

"Notorious" and "zealot" are both very specific words and they combine to form a very succinct description. Using more colloquial language to express the same thought would result in either a longer or more vague description. Thus, these are not "$10 words" as people tend to use them. They are probably just the sharpest, quickest point from A to Z.

By: anotherpanacea

anotherpanacea — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 06:35:01 -0800

'Veiled insult' comes closest, for my money, at least insofar as it will help the student better understand why this isn't a euphemism. However, I think an exact word for this would likely have less explanatory power than a full sentence, just as 'charientism' and 'asteism' tell us nothing without a copy of the OED nearby.

on preview: I'm liking the erudite dis. Eruditis?

By: scarabic

scarabic — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 07:12:37 -0800

Asteism - that looks like pretty much the perfect word. You learn something every day!

By: Quietgal

Quietgal — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 07:31:35 -0800

Another vote for "erudite diss". Maybe dumbed-down to "educated diss" if your student isn't even at the level of erudite.

"Diss" should be spelled with 2 s's. Because I say so.

By: cairnish

cairnish — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 09:00:48 -0800

Probably not what you are looking for exactly, but perhaps related. An "iron fist in a velvet glove" can be used to deliver severe judgment with apparent delicacy.

By: Aquaman

Aquaman — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 09:46:55 -0800

"sugar-coating"

By: Rumple

Rumple — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 09:56:22 -0800

erudiss!

By: speedo

speedo — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 12:34:36 -0800

One--possibly familiar to a sports-oriented student--euphemism that I hear frequently while watching professional sports is "extracurricular activity". This is used when, say, members of opposing (US) football teams get into a shoving match after the play is whistled dead.

The phrase conveys the concept to the viewer what is going on (as long as the viewer is either familiar with the euphemism or can make the required cognitive leap) with out literally or really even metaphorically describing what is going on.

By: LobsterMitten

LobsterMitten — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 15:34:56 -0800

cgc373: yes.

filmgeek, believe me, I have made up more sports examples, analogies, logic exercises, and paper topics this semester than I ever would have thought possible. Every time I think it's reached the level of grossly patronizing, they ask for more. It's been a very interesting cultural change from the all academics all the time lifestyle.

Thank you all for giving this a shot. I'm suspecting there isn't a word for it, which is a bit surprising.
Veiled insult, iron fist in velvet glove are close
Asteism seems close based on that definition, I still need to grab my OED and see if there are examples. But a fantastic word that I'd never heard before, so thank you mumkin!
I'll still be checking, will mark best answers in a day or so...

By: cgc373

cgc373 — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 16:52:07 -0800

A couple of months ago ferociouskitty Asked a similar question, with similarly vague results.

I wondered whether affectation might describe it, so maybe your student would understand such activity as putting on airs, or as fronting. (A great deal of what happens here at MetaFilter would probably grate this student's cheese.) It's a lot harder to think of a pithy way to put this than I expected it would be, but it's also kind of fun to think about.