Blacklist disapproving parents to wedding?

December 7, 2007 7:49 PM

Should disapproving parents be invited to the wedding?

I am the maid of honor at an upcoming wedding and my best friend is dealing with a dilemma. Her parents have disapproved of her relationship with her now fiance from the beginning and have done horrible things to confirm it. Her parents have a running background check on her boyfriend and have even made up some things concerning legal issues in his past. They have blatantly said demeaning things about him and his life and they have never even spent more than 3 hours with the guy. I think he is a wonderful man and he treats her very well, however, I am also the type of person who is able to overlook a person's past mistakes and indiscretions.

My best friend's wedding is in a couple of months and her parents are not even aware that she is engaged. She has not spoken to them since May of this year except for some emails to check in telling them she is ok. Many of her future in laws have suggested she invite them just out of family obligation and respect, however, we both feel that it would be a mistake even to just inform them. She is worried they are going to ruin her day by simply making further comments or worse, by showing up at the wedding and publicly humiliating her and her future husband.

Should she inform them that there will be a wedding? We had considered this option and just not tell them unless they make a real effort in being civil and mature, but that is honestly not something within their capabilities. Or should we just proceed with the wedding and with the new family she will have? She is an only child and having her father walk her down the aisle was something important, but now she feels that his behavior is something she does not need in this new point in her life.

posted by dnthomps to home & garden (40 comments total)

if the parents will make the wedding uncomfortable, why on earth would she invite them?

People don't, I think, have a responsibility to their parents other than to share their lives with them and look after them when they got old. If the sharing is so traumatic, it stops. It is HER life she is living, not her parents.

Don't invite them or tell them. There is no obligation as such if it causes heartache. If she has taken the decision that this guy is for her, it's her choice. If they don't respect that choice, they miss out on the wedding of their daughter. Their loss.
posted by Brockles at 7:59 PM on December 7, 2007

Give them a chance and invite them. Not being invited to their daughter's wedding would give them a valid reason to disapprove of the relationship. And who knows--they might suck it up and go along if they know she's not going to change her mind and dump him.

That said, this is not your decision, try not to let your dislike of her parents show when you're helping her decide. It will just make her feel torn between you and her parents.
posted by sondrialiac at 8:00 PM on December 7, 2007 [2 favorites]

Is it possible that if the parents knew that they were not going to be able to break up the relationship, they'd scale back the obnoxiousness somewhat?

I'm not saying that the parents deserve another chance, but it's quite a shame for your friend not to have her parents at her wedding.
posted by ibmcginty at 8:03 PM on December 7, 2007

Christ, no.
posted by rtha at 8:07 PM on December 7, 2007

It is definitely a shame. And I am well aware it is not my decision, I am just being supportive and because I grew up with her, I understand how controlling her parents can be and how well they can manipulate guilt into her, ergo the post for additional advice. I am not asking her to choose, but this was something she requested advice, outside of family and friends.

I personally do not think her parents are capable of scaling back. Ever since she went to college and began thinking for her own and not depending on them for money (which they have a great deal of and use to keep her dependent on them when they can), there has been a great break in their relationship. I do not think they were expecting to lose control of her.

I adore her parents, truly I do. They have provided for her more than most parents, however, I also do not feel that because they have done so, that gives them control. A part of me feels that if they do go to the wedding, there would be obvious signs of their disapproval and that would just break her heart.
posted by dnthomps at 8:12 PM on December 7, 2007

I think that decision truly has to be between her and her intended.

Can you be sure her parents don't already know? Never underestimate the ability of others to NOT mind their own business...
posted by konolia at 8:21 PM on December 7, 2007

If it were me, I would tell them that I am getting married, but not invite them unless they're willing to talk to the guy on reasonable terms and accept that I'm a grown-up.
posted by Pants! at 8:25 PM on December 7, 2007 [1 favorite]

I think if it is really important to her, she should talk to them and see if they are willing to bury the hatchet. They might be willing to be civil if that means going to their daughter's wedding and having access to future grandkids, however I wouldn't get my hopes up.

However, do not tell them the date or the location of the wedding. Of course they will probably be able to find out, especially if it is going to be a big wedding.
posted by whoaali at 8:26 PM on December 7, 2007

It will be a wedding of about 15 people. The only ones who have direct contact to her parents who are coming are myself and our other childhood friend. The rest of the guest list are her future in-laws and her fiance's best friends.

She has definitely thought about the ramifications of how she will not be the "bigger person" by not inviting them. However, she is also concerned about their negative perspective on her future husband when they have children. She fears that if they are involved grandparents, their negative perspective would be something her children would realize and thus arise further family drama. I think her and her intended are about 85% sure her parents will not be informed, but she does teeter totter out of guilt sometimes. Thanks to you all for your input.
posted by dnthomps at 8:29 PM on December 7, 2007

Don't let tell them about the wedding in advance and give them a chance to come up with a plan to stop/ruin it. Wait until the last minute and invite them 1 or 2 days before the wedding.
posted by WizKid at 8:43 PM on December 7, 2007

What does her fiance think? Is he leaving it all on her whether or not her parents are invited or has he expressed an opinion either way?
posted by lilacorlavender at 8:44 PM on December 7, 2007

Her fiance does not want to make any finalized decision because they are her parents and it is her wedding too. He is obviously hurt over their mistreatment, especially since they know nothing about him except heresay, but he understands to a point that they just do not want their daughter growing up and having and adult relationship. He has expressed that he would wants her happy on that day and that anything to change such plans is something he is completely against. He obviously does not want to be selfish and say he doesn't want them there (although we all know that is where he personally stands), but he said that he is supportive of any decision just as long as it will lead to a happy day for her.
posted by dnthomps at 8:49 PM on December 7, 2007

I'd lean towards giving them a chance. Send the invitation with a hand-written letter that is cordial and loving- and says that she only wants them to come if they can obey Miss Manners. She doesn't expect them to change their minds in the course of 2 months (though that would be nice, huh?) but she expects them to be silent if they cannot be polite or kind.

I agree with earlier posters- not being invited might drive a harder wedge between her and her parents than currently exists. This could be a gesture of reconciliation, perhaps.

But ultimately, it is up to her and her fiance, and what they feel comfortable.
posted by arnicae at 8:53 PM on December 7, 2007

Oh goodness. I can understand the "money = control" thing, my parents are the same and it is a pain to get out of it.

Is it possible for your friend to get registered with the guy privately and then have the wedding? Or hold the small 15-people wedding, then have a bigger gathering where the parents are invited? Either way the parents can't stop them now...

How are the parents like when it comes to status? Do they worry a lot about their status, how they are perceived by other people? It may compel them to shut up if they come to the wedding.
posted by divabat at 8:55 PM on December 7, 2007

My best friend changed her major, a major her parents had their hopes and dreams on since she was little, a year before she met her fiance and that was 4 years ago. To this day, my best friend's family still do not know she has changed her major, in fact, her family think she has taken time off from college and is doing some work study (she is a year from graduation now on the major she changed to). So status is everything.
posted by dnthomps at 9:03 PM on December 7, 2007

Wow only 15 people, I would have to go with no then, if its a huge wedding, lots of peer pressure not to make a scene and easy to get lost in the crowd, but with only 15 people they will almost certainly ruin the atmosphere even if they are on their best behavior. I mean his entire family would have to make nice with people they know hate their son and have made both of them miserable, sounds painful for all.
posted by whoaali at 9:06 PM on December 7, 2007

either no straight out, or the idea of letting them know it is going to happen and insisting on a period of cordial behavior before getting to know when/where.
posted by edgeways at 9:15 PM on December 7, 2007

Oh...speaking as someone who didn't invite parental units (albeit for different reasons), I tell ya...it's not a good idea. It really isn't.

This is a huge milestone in their lives, just as it is in hers. How they choose to manifest that milestone is their decision, but to deny them the opportunity is to alienate them forever.

It breaks a parent's heart to miss something as important as a wedding, it really does. I hear what you're saying about their behavior, and perhaps it was out of line, but it sounds to me like the majority of it was done out of love, although a rather overprotective love.

If your friend is old enough to get married, then your friend is old enough not to hide behind random "I'm ok" emails. She needs to go talk to her parents. Talk to them. Not write them. Face to face, look in the eye, communication.

She owes them that. They owe her respect as well, and she can tell them that if they cannot bring themselves to respect her and her decisions, then *they* have made the choice to not be part of this milestone celebration.

But it's cowardly to do it in any other way but face to face. If she's not enough of a grownup to defend her decisions to her parents, then she's probably not enough of a grown up to a manifest a successful marriage. Look at it this way, by hiding the engagement and marriage, she's saying that she's ashamed to tell them. That maybe she thinks they're right. That maybe there's a good reason that her parents ran/run a background check.

I guarantee that's how her parents will see it.

I'm also feeling like you're leaving a lot of details out. You say you're able to "overlook a person's past mistakes and indiscretions", which would suggest that there is something to overlook, no?

Without details, we've no idea what you're able to overlook, but perhaps your tolerance for what's acceptable for your friend wouldn't be acceptable if it was your daughter, ya know?

I mean, if my daughter wanted to marry a gang banging, crack dealing, whore slapping, super pimp...I'd probably go out of my way to discourage that. Much like the Monty Python routine where the nice girl comes how with the man who lives in the sewers.

If he has a criminal past that will never be expunged...then yeah, her parents are going to be justifiably concerned. If he's a felon, or an addict, or has assault violations, then yeah...concern is warranted.

My point is, that without knowing *why* the parents are worried, we have no way of knowing if the parents are really out of line, or if your friend is being foolish and letting her emotions carry her where common sense does not tread.
posted by dejah420 at 9:20 PM on December 7, 2007 [15 favorites]

You're asking a harder question than just whether disapproving parents should be invited to their child's wedding ceremony. You're asking whether these people should remain a family, whether the generations preceding and following your friends should be permitted to ever know each other in any meaningful way.

That's an impossible to answer question without being able to judge just how abnormal or destructive these parents might really be (and honestly, without know a little more about what you mean by indiscretions) so I'd just offer this for perspective: Do you know anyone who wishes they knew who their grandparents were, do you know how that feels for a child especially when the not-knowing is something done by choice when it's some dark awful thing the grownups let happen?

Meanwhile though, I'm not sure we know what the parents' objection really is, if it were racism and an inability to accept an interracial marriage it's be easy to understand you and your friends hesitation. So what's the deal, they just figure nobody's good enough for their little girl? Something like that would be pretty much normal.
posted by scheptech at 9:22 PM on December 7, 2007

Perhaps she might consider telling her parents that she's planning a wedding, but not precisely where or when, and see what the reaction is. If they're still upset, and unwilling to compromise and seem unwilling to promise to be non-disruptive, then they don't get to know where and when. If they act like reasonable adults, they can be invited.
posted by jacquilynne at 9:29 PM on December 7, 2007

That would sum it up. Her fiance had a pretty rough teenage years. The whole GED, didn't go to college, had some partying days and did not turn his life around until he was 21 cause he was off being a kid type deal is what they disapprove of. I think a part of them also blame him for how she changed her college decision, even though she switched majors a year before they even met. He does not have much money, but has done a complete 180 and is starting his own business (and he is only 25) and does want a family with her. That would be the crux of it, they expected her to graduate from college this big time engineer and then travel in Europe for years, have her own firm, build things, and then settle down. But now, she is living on her own, not taking any money from them, working and going to college full time. One would think most parents would be happy with such a responsible lifestyle, however, they feel that she has failed because she is not taking the "successful" path in life.

My friend has not decided to negate their presence with future grandkids, however, with their continuing rude behaviors towards her future husband and father of her children, she has considered how their view of him would affect her children. She would hate for her children to be made to feel that their father was a loser, which he is not. She would never deprive her children of a close bond with their grandparents, however, her parents have mentioned many times what a type of father he would be with his past (not taking school seriously, etc) which is completely unfair.
posted by dnthomps at 9:32 PM on December 7, 2007

I think that she should tell them she's engaged, and see how that goes. Inviting them to the wedding is a different decision which would depend on their behaviour to him as 'future husband'.

I also think she should grow up and tell them she changed her major, and stop letting them blame him for her decisions. Makes it a lot easier to see him as a negative influence in her life if, as far as they know, she decided to drop out/take time off college when she started going out with him.
posted by jacalata at 9:42 PM on December 7, 2007 [1 favorite]

First of all, I do not think it would be him being selfish if he comes and says that he does not want them there. It is his wedding day too, which is why I was curious if he had expressed an opinion.

I was previewing but I was going to suggest like jacquilynne that BOTH of them go to her parents and tell them they are engaged. Gage their reaction and react appropriately from there.

The reason why I have been previewing is I am still trying to figure out that your friend had the confidence to make her own decision to study what she wanted to and yet has been unable or unwilling to communicate that to her family for four years. I know it may be tough for her but she should try and stand up for herself and say that she can make her own decisions and that they should be supportive of them.

PS. Tell them congratulations and that I wish them the best of luck.
posted by lilacorlavender at 9:44 PM on December 7, 2007

I don't know if she has to "grow up and tell them she changed her major." Maybe in her case, she has to make a decision about whether she wants her parents in her life going forward. We can't really know what this situation is from this thread, but it sounds like a recipe for disaster to have them involved as grandparents if they are really so hostile to her fiance and so willing to utterly freight her with their own expectations - and thus are at risk to be hostile and rejecting to her for taking a different path. I'm guessing there are strong cultural issues (possibly irreconcilable clashes) here, too, from the few specifics we've heard so far.
posted by caitlinb at 9:52 PM on December 7, 2007

No no, I fear you have misread what I wrote or that I did not write it correctly. She has informed her parents that she has changed her major. It is her parents who have not relayed this information to the rest of her family. Someone has mentioned status and its importance, and I was simply confirming its priority with her parents. She told her parents about her career change, but as of now, her grandparents and aunts and uncles still think she is on her way to become an engineer because her parents are too ashamed.
posted by dnthomps at 9:53 PM on December 7, 2007

But it is not up to her parents to correct that assumption anyways. It is up to her to say "Grandma, I am not going to be an engineer. I am going to be doing Y. Let me tell you about it and how much I enjoy it."

Plus, I just looked at the original question closer. How much of his family (the future in laws) are being invited versus how much of hers? Are they thinking of inviting the grandparents on her side etc.?
posted by lilacorlavender at 10:09 PM on December 7, 2007

Aside from her parents, the rest of her family are in another country and will be unable to come. The family that is outside of the country do not speak English and she does not speak her native language, so she has requested her mother tell her family, but they have flat out lied (the out of country family are still sending her presents related to her old major). As far as the future in laws, his parents, sister, and grandparents are coming. His family has become her family these past 4 years and she is much closer with them than she is ever was with her own parents.

But I do not want to get sidetracked on the issue, although it is a complicated issue with family entanglements and drama.
posted by dnthomps at 10:16 PM on December 7, 2007

I did not mean to go too far off on a tangent. I interpreted somethings you wrote a little differently but now I have a bigger picture. I was going to try and suggest that if one of her relatives was going to come, maybe they could help the parents behave but that's not applicable.

The only other suggestion I have is if there is one of the parents that has shown more reason (which does not seem likely in this situation but think about what has happened) go to that parent first, in person and tell them about the engagement.
posted by lilacorlavender at 10:27 PM on December 7, 2007

She wouldn't happen to be Asian, would she? I come from an Asian culture and I see so much of what your best friend is going through in my family and in my culture. Granted, my family hasn't been this openly hostile, but they've been a bit more subtle about it - mum too often joking about marrying us (my sister and I) off to a rich Bengali man when we're both dating Westerners, my dad telling me "Don't be like your sister and live with a man before you're married!!", them being frustrated that my sister did a Ph.D in science but now is doing a degree in art, them telling my sister to tell me to stop "Travelling so much".

To the posters suggesting her best friend just "grow up and tell them" - you have NO IDEA how DIFFICULT it is to do that. With a family like that, if they're anything like mine, they tend to take the WORST possible way to interpret it. I once wrote to my family about how I'm hating my college situation and I might have to change track even if it's against their wishes. First thing my parents told me? "Why are you calling us bad parents?!"

I'm thinking here that the OP's best friend has possibly tried to tell them many things but it's never gone down really well. If she tells them about her plan to do something, the parents will pressure her to change her mind, sometimes even doing things behind her back. So she's probably come to the point where she thinks "screw it, I'm not going to tell them anything, they can't ruin me this way". I can relate to that, because that's how my sister and I feel to a lesser degree. If our parents knew what we really did, they'd think we've gone crazy. Nothing is good enough. (And it's mild stuff, even - I was yelled at by my mum for "being unsafe" the first time I took public transport.)

There's a Malay saying that goes "let the child die, but never let traditions die". This is a common Asian mindset. Sometimes expectations of what you SHOULD be become more important than what you are, even if you are flesh and blood.

I can understand why it's hard. Filial piety probably comes into play - it's your parents, they should know about something like this, if they don't get invited it gets reflected badly on them. On the other hand, they've probably made your best friend's life hell and may just ruin her wedding, so she's probably thinking "why should I sacrifice my sanity just to uphold this expectation?". It's a hard decision.

I would suggest telling them there is a wedding, but don't make it explicitly an invite. "Mum, Dad, I'm getting married." Then see what happens.

Good luck.
posted by divabat at 11:02 PM on December 7, 2007

One possible solution is perfectly reasonable - to not invite parents who are known to be difficult is a reasonable answer, as many so far have said.

I would tend to look at this from the other side of things. This is an opportunity for her to really become an adult person - which not coincidentally is part of being a good life partner - and deal with her parents straight up. To tell them what she wants and needs from them, and for her to make it clear to them that it's not theirs to negotiate, and in a way challenge them to demonstrate their true love for their daughter and respect her wishes and feelings.

They may not be able to do that - and if not, then they probably won't get to go to the wedding. But I would very firmly say, "this is what I want and what I am going to do, and while I understand you have concerns, this is my life and these are my choices. You are my parents and I love you, and I hope you love me enough to want to continue to be a part of my life."

Part of being an adult is facing up to even the most difficult of family and interpersonal situations. The context of a wedding makes it even more important to deal with this now - but without losing control or putting oneself at someone else's mercy. I think it's time to have a serious conversation with the parents.

Short version: call their bluff, and be strong in doing so.
posted by mikel at 11:10 PM on December 7, 2007 [4 favorites]

Option One: Don't Tell, Don't Invite

It seems to me that would mean there would always be a shadow on her memory of the day; the wedding will not be only a wedding, but also a really strong statement against the parents - the two inextricably intertwined, which is rather sad.

Option Two: Tell, But Don't Invite

Possibly somewhat better. If she says, "I want you to know that we are getting married, and realizing your feelings about our relationship, I don't expect you to come celebrate the marriage. I will continue to hope that your opinion will change," then two things happen - she won't feel guilty or mean about marrying "behind their back"... and it gives the parents a last-gasp chance at patching things up, thereby possibly attending the wedding, however unlikely that may seem.

Option Three: Invite Conditionally

Your friend tells her parents that she is getting married, and that she would love for them both to come to the wedding and for her father to give her away - but unless they can put away their disapproval and just be supportive parents, that she would rather they didn't come. In this option, the entire onus is on the parents to decide if they want to be a part of her life, and while it would still be sad if they weren't at the wedding, her conscience is 100% clear. This is the only choice that best offers the possibility, even if it's slim, of achieving her ideal day. Father to give her away, parents at the wedding, no nasty behavior.

If she really and truly believes that in Option Three her parents would promise to be friendly and civil, and then actually disrupt the wedding, then they are not simply overprotective, overly controlling- but-loving parents, but disturbed people, in which case, go back to Option One.

I know your friend dreads talking to her parents about this, but I think it's one of those things that, for her own sake, it would be better to bite the bullet and do. Weddings and the incredibly fraught period before them are very emotional times, and I'm sure your friend is feeling a little bit fragile. But really, unless the parents truly are either incredibly malign or mentally disturbed, she will thank herself in the future if she can just buck up and have the conversation. Yes, it may end in tears - but after she has faced the music she can go forward without those nasty doubts and feelings of guilt or regret.
posted by taz at 2:42 AM on December 8, 2007

Invite the parents like parents usually are invited - no conditions - and hope for the best. And invite the other wedding guests for an informal pre-wedding dinner one or two days before the wedding.
posted by iviken at 3:55 AM on December 8, 2007

I had a Malaysian friend who had something similar happen, only her husband had no bad deeds to speak of and treats her like gold. She met him while she was in college overseas in the U.S. many years ago.

She told her parents about the wedding but they didn't come because they were very opposed to her marrying a white man; they chose to stay in Malaysia. She told me she cried on her wedding day and it was one of the saddest days of her life because they didn't come.

She told me it took a couple years, but that her parents finally came around after she continued to keep in touch with them. Then she made the trip with her husband to Malaysia so they could meet him and they finally approved; in fact they love him because he treats her so well.

I say definitely tell them about the wedding but provide no specific details. Then take it from there I guess. They probably just haven't gotten over the fact that she's an adult and makes her own decisions.

And with that in mind, if she is going to be an adult, she has to stand up for her own decisions regardless of the consequences.
posted by fan_of_all_things_small at 3:57 AM on December 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

If you're presenting your friend's situation and attitudes accurately, then it sounds as if she has a strong desire NOT to inform her parents before the wedding, let alone invite them, but is being pressured by others to go against her better judgment. If so, she ought to go with her gut and her convictions and not let people push her into doing something she thinks is inadvisable. A lot of that pressure just comes from the well-meaning but clueless sentimentality associated with weddings and illusory visions of tearfully sweet family reconciliations during the chicken dance. But some families are, well, the Borgias.

The bride knows her parents, any pertinent cultural background, and all the assorted familial baggage better than anyone. Especially if she has been raised by controlling micro-managers to be a docile, dutiful daughter, the fact that she has already felt compelled to cut off pretty much all contact with them for months speaks volumes. From the sound of things, they might actually be worse about an impending wedding because they feel they must now do anything to "rescue" her from an irrevocable "mistake."

I don't think it's at all immature or cowardly to avoid a confrontation or conflict that you know will not end well with people who you know will not change their established patterns of behavior -- particularly if those are based on entrenched family or cultural tradition. What is "grown-up" is to make your choices for yourself, let other people do what they're going to do, and accept the consequences. That doesn't necessarily mean broadcasting those choices to people who wish you ill.
posted by FelliniBlank at 4:53 AM on December 8, 2007 [1 favorite]

Tell them about the engagement. Point out that she knows they may disapprove, ask if they want to participate.

In 10 or 20 years, which would feel worse? I invited my parents and they were not charming about it? or I didn't invite my parents to my wedding?
posted by theora55 at 5:21 AM on December 8, 2007

i mostly agree with theora55 above, but if her parents actually manipulated data to "create" a bad past for this guy, then they may go far enough to disrupt the wedding.

if she tells them about it, she shouldn't tell them the exact date or place until she's sure they will behave.
posted by thinkingwoman at 5:34 AM on December 8, 2007

Amongst lots of excellent advice, I have to agree with dejah420. The ramifications of not inviting the parents to this key milestone will ripple long past the wedding, and may mean she loses touch with the family. Is that something she is willing to encounter? Fine if so, but she should do it with her eyes open. If the family are as traditional as they seem, not being invited to the wedding will probably be seen as a terrible insult.
I would recommend she goes to see her parents alone, and however hard makes it clear that she is not asking for or expecting their approval, but that she is going to go ahead and marry this man she loves, and would love for them to be there.
There may well be tears and shouting and tension, but if she can remain calm and warm through it they may eventually start to understand that she is an adult set on an adult decision. They are probably feeling confused and bewildered and out in the cold, and rightly or wrongly feel that their status within their community is linked to their daughter's 'success.
She needs to coolly and rationally work out what her desired endpoint is - her parents may well surprise her if they realise that she is going to go ahead, and better to do it with them then without them.
posted by Marzipan at 6:06 AM on December 8, 2007

I agree with taz.

her parents may well surprise her if they realise that she is going to go ahead

I think "might possibly" works better than "may well" there. They sound pretty entrenched. I'm a big fan of family togetherness and giving people chances myself, but I'm also a big fan of not ruining your wedding day, and it sounds like that's a good possibility here.

Data point: my first wife did not invite her mother (single parent) to our wedding (about the same size as this one). The mother was pissed but got over it.
posted by languagehat at 6:30 AM on December 8, 2007

I'm a big fan of elopement, myself.
posted by potsmokinghippieoverlord at 10:35 AM on December 8, 2007

I'd say...invite them but make it clear to declare rules for their participation. "Mom and Dad, I need you to come, I want you here for this great day in my life, but I need you to support me and love me and tell me I look beautiful. I know you don't love John, but I know you love ME, and I want you to come give me away and make it a fairytale day for me."

And then, on the day of the event, if the VanDouchingtons show up and act like jackasses, that's where the Best Man and the Maid of Honor inform them that their invitations have been rescinded and they'll be sent checks for their presents.
posted by TomMelee at 3:38 PM on December 8, 2007