Is it possible for me to get into top-level physics programs for graduate studies?
December 2, 2007 4:10 PM Subscribe
What does it take to get into a top-level physics program for graduate studies?
So, it is that time of the year and I need to get my applications out for graduate study, but I am still having trouble deciding where to apply. The problem I am having is that my transcript has some black marks in the past that I feel makes my candidacy as a grad student an issue.
My cumulative GPA is only a 2.5, while my in-major and math minor GPA is about 3.6. This is because in the beginning of my 5.5 year academic career, I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life and frankly I was too immature to be in college. Once I found myself in physics, my GPA jumped but the damage to my cumulative was already done. I won't find out my Physics GRE until next week, but I estimate it will be around the 50-60th percentile.
This is the main thing working against my application, as the rest of my application is actually very strong. I've worked for years as the main Unix administrator for a different department. I also have been working directly with a professor on an experiment he collaborates on with a number of institutions as the co-lead software guy, writing the data analysis, acquisition, and controller software. I also spent some time at another school working in collaboration with a professor there, aiding them on a portion of the experiment which no one was making any progress on. Both the professor at my school, as well as at the other school, are writing me glowing recommendations and would very much like me to stay with the project into grad school. I'm also the co-author on a number of papers, but unfortunately they will not be published until well after the application deadlines. Both of these schools are also top 10-15 rank schools for physics in the United States.
I talked to the professor I work with about what schools to apply to, and he seems to think I have a reasonable chance of getting into some great programs (MIT, Harvard, UChicago, UMich, UPenn, etc...) despite my low cumulative GPA. He says that the recommendations from multiple institutions, as well as all the "graduate quality" work I've already done will give me a significant leg up. It also helps, he said, that the specific field I want to enter doesn't have all that many students applying.
Wow, that was a lot longer than I expected... the main question, after filling you all in with background information, is whether or not I should bother applying to these schools? I don't want to waste the time and money on these schools if I have absolutely no chance, especially because I am quite broke already and my time would be better spent applying to more reasonable schools.
Thanks for the input!
So, it is that time of the year and I need to get my applications out for graduate study, but I am still having trouble deciding where to apply. The problem I am having is that my transcript has some black marks in the past that I feel makes my candidacy as a grad student an issue.
My cumulative GPA is only a 2.5, while my in-major and math minor GPA is about 3.6. This is because in the beginning of my 5.5 year academic career, I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life and frankly I was too immature to be in college. Once I found myself in physics, my GPA jumped but the damage to my cumulative was already done. I won't find out my Physics GRE until next week, but I estimate it will be around the 50-60th percentile.
This is the main thing working against my application, as the rest of my application is actually very strong. I've worked for years as the main Unix administrator for a different department. I also have been working directly with a professor on an experiment he collaborates on with a number of institutions as the co-lead software guy, writing the data analysis, acquisition, and controller software. I also spent some time at another school working in collaboration with a professor there, aiding them on a portion of the experiment which no one was making any progress on. Both the professor at my school, as well as at the other school, are writing me glowing recommendations and would very much like me to stay with the project into grad school. I'm also the co-author on a number of papers, but unfortunately they will not be published until well after the application deadlines. Both of these schools are also top 10-15 rank schools for physics in the United States.
I talked to the professor I work with about what schools to apply to, and he seems to think I have a reasonable chance of getting into some great programs (MIT, Harvard, UChicago, UMich, UPenn, etc...) despite my low cumulative GPA. He says that the recommendations from multiple institutions, as well as all the "graduate quality" work I've already done will give me a significant leg up. It also helps, he said, that the specific field I want to enter doesn't have all that many students applying.
Wow, that was a lot longer than I expected... the main question, after filling you all in with background information, is whether or not I should bother applying to these schools? I don't want to waste the time and money on these schools if I have absolutely no chance, especially because I am quite broke already and my time would be better spent applying to more reasonable schools.
Thanks for the input!
Response by poster: I did not know that, I'll have to go check it out!
In a number of cases, yes. In some cases, I've worked directly or indirectly with professors at these schools as they are collaborating institutions on the experiment.
posted by Loto at 4:16 PM on December 2, 2007
In a number of cases, yes. In some cases, I've worked directly or indirectly with professors at these schools as they are collaborating institutions on the experiment.
posted by Loto at 4:16 PM on December 2, 2007
Listen to your professor, who is at a top school and who knows your application package better than we do.
Also, you say "I'm also the co-author on a number of papers, but unfortunately they will not be published until well after the application deadlines." If the papers are accepted for publication but not yet published, or if they are under revise and resubmit at a specific journal, you can list them that way on your CV.
posted by LobsterMitten at 4:21 PM on December 2, 2007
Also, you say "I'm also the co-author on a number of papers, but unfortunately they will not be published until well after the application deadlines." If the papers are accepted for publication but not yet published, or if they are under revise and resubmit at a specific journal, you can list them that way on your CV.
posted by LobsterMitten at 4:21 PM on December 2, 2007
Some places may also accept writing samples, in your case these "to be published" papers.
If I were you I'd do the same thing most people did for undergrad-- apply to a few "reach schools" that you aren't sure you'll get in to, as well as a few schools you'd be happy with and are more sure of.
When I was applying, most physics grad students applied to 6-10 places; I'm 5 years from that now though.
Also, can you apply/would you consider applying to one of the institutions you've already been at? The profs there who know you might be less inclined to pay attention to your not perfect grades.
One more thing: the relevance of your score on the GRE is field dependent. Some fields want a much higher score than others. I keep hoping that there's a field where no one cares because the exam is poor measure of your graduate success... you should ask your profs how much that matters for your field.
Good luck, whatever you choose to do.
posted by nat at 4:29 PM on December 2, 2007
If I were you I'd do the same thing most people did for undergrad-- apply to a few "reach schools" that you aren't sure you'll get in to, as well as a few schools you'd be happy with and are more sure of.
When I was applying, most physics grad students applied to 6-10 places; I'm 5 years from that now though.
Also, can you apply/would you consider applying to one of the institutions you've already been at? The profs there who know you might be less inclined to pay attention to your not perfect grades.
One more thing: the relevance of your score on the GRE is field dependent. Some fields want a much higher score than others. I keep hoping that there's a field where no one cares because the exam is poor measure of your graduate success... you should ask your profs how much that matters for your field.
Good luck, whatever you choose to do.
posted by nat at 4:29 PM on December 2, 2007
If your prof thinks so, then yes. I'm not in science, but I think it's fairly common for schools to look at work experience as well as grades, and you can definitely list pending publications on a CV. Also, it sounds like you actually know some people at these schools in a professional capacity; that kind of foot in the door is huge, it means they know you can do the work.
posted by SoftRain at 4:29 PM on December 2, 2007
posted by SoftRain at 4:29 PM on December 2, 2007
Definitely take the chance and apply, you never know what'll happen! Graduate admissions across all fields tend to be very subjective, so a single low point on your application can probably be overcome. In any case, make sure you have some backup schools on there, but definitely add a few reaches! You don't want to go to some second- or third-choice school without knowing if you could have done better if you'd just gone for it.
posted by you're a kitty! at 4:32 PM on December 2, 2007
posted by you're a kitty! at 4:32 PM on December 2, 2007
Oh one more thing, some schools take grad students on a field dependent basis, some don't. Some are in between.
MIT is very field particular; you'll be accepted, or not, to a particular group. UCBerkeley is not at all field dependent. Most other places are somewhere in between.
So, don't just look at how hard a school is for physics in general; look at how hard it is to get into for your particular subfield.
posted by nat at 4:39 PM on December 2, 2007
MIT is very field particular; you'll be accepted, or not, to a particular group. UCBerkeley is not at all field dependent. Most other places are somewhere in between.
So, don't just look at how hard a school is for physics in general; look at how hard it is to get into for your particular subfield.
posted by nat at 4:39 PM on December 2, 2007
I've done grad admissions for top schools in math. If it's at all similar, a) people won't care much that you screwed up your first couple of years in college, but b) a 50-60 percentile subject GRE would be a red flag for a top program. That said, the main thing I'd say is that your advisor knows both you and physics much better than we do and you should apply wherever he tells you to.
posted by escabeche at 5:00 PM on December 2, 2007
posted by escabeche at 5:00 PM on December 2, 2007
+1 to what LobsterMitten said.
If you can frame it well, you can explain your circumstances and make your discovery of your true calling in physics sound good. Highlight your accomplishments (papers, contributions to the group). If the papers have been submitted, definitely mention them wherever appropriate/allowed.
I worry a bit about your physics GRE score though. That's a big thing for preliminary screening, more so than GPA, I would think.
Anyway, as LobsterMitten said, if your professor thinks you have a good chance, you should listen to him. He would know better than any of us (because we don't know you or your work and we don't know what your field is).
posted by bread-eater at 5:04 PM on December 2, 2007
If you can frame it well, you can explain your circumstances and make your discovery of your true calling in physics sound good. Highlight your accomplishments (papers, contributions to the group). If the papers have been submitted, definitely mention them wherever appropriate/allowed.
I worry a bit about your physics GRE score though. That's a big thing for preliminary screening, more so than GPA, I would think.
Anyway, as LobsterMitten said, if your professor thinks you have a good chance, you should listen to him. He would know better than any of us (because we don't know you or your work and we don't know what your field is).
posted by bread-eater at 5:04 PM on December 2, 2007
Letters are most important I believe, at least judging my experience last year, although I think your statement is important too (which is a great place to mention you are getting published!), in that you show you are interested. Even more so than grades, and they really only care about major GPA I've been told. I asked the head of a department I was admitted to why he accepted me and he said, "because I knew of your letter writers."
From what it sounds like to me you'll be fine. Definitely apply to reach schools, because there's no real reason not to. I'd also reccomend contacting professors you want to work with as soon as you can so they know you during the app process.
In contrast to what other people have said, I don't think the GRE will be a huge problem. Maybe at some schools, but definitely not most top schools. You just took it so you know it's a bunch of superficial short questions that show how good you can memorize equations, not a true ability to reason physically. From what I have been told by where I go it is generally a formality, and really 40-60th is not that bad.
posted by Large Marge at 5:52 PM on December 2, 2007
From what it sounds like to me you'll be fine. Definitely apply to reach schools, because there's no real reason not to. I'd also reccomend contacting professors you want to work with as soon as you can so they know you during the app process.
In contrast to what other people have said, I don't think the GRE will be a huge problem. Maybe at some schools, but definitely not most top schools. You just took it so you know it's a bunch of superficial short questions that show how good you can memorize equations, not a true ability to reason physically. From what I have been told by where I go it is generally a formality, and really 40-60th is not that bad.
posted by Large Marge at 5:52 PM on December 2, 2007
I'm a grad student in physics at one of the "top programs" you mentioned, and I sat on the admissions committee for said program a few years ago.
I'll be honest: a low GPA *and* a low subject GRE is a big horkin' red flag. If this is the case, then you will simply not be one of the top-ranked applicants to any program. There will, guaranteed, be many other students who apply who have recommendations as glowing as yours and who may even have a published paper or two, but who also scored over 950 on the Physics GRE and got a 3.6 GPA overall with a 3.9 average in their physics & math classes. The amount of time that you took to complete your bachelor's will also look be a blot on your record to someone reading your application. Graduate physics programs have enough trouble getting their students to graduate quickly that they would be less likely to accept someone who shows evidence of directionlessness in their past.
That said: the top physics programs in the U.S. do not only admit their "top-ranked choices"; if they did, then they would all be in competition for the same group of 50-100 students, and none of them would be able to completely fill out their incoming classes. (Well, maybe Harvard could. But.) Your application will therefore not be rejected out of hand (and believe me, there are plenty that are.) You will, I'm afraid, be something of a marginal case; but we admitted a fair number of marginal cases when I sat on the committee, and when you factor in the number of schools that most physics majors apply to, I'm sure that even the marginal cases that we had to reject were accepted somewhere else.
It also helps, he said, that the specific field I want to enter doesn't have all that many students applying.
This can help, as long as you're sure that the programs in question actually have programs in this field. If you applied to my program wanting to do plasma physics, for example, you wouldn't be admitted, simply because there's absolutely nobody here researching plasma physics. (From your description, though, I'm guessing that a lot of research in your field is conducted in subterranean tunnels, in which case you should by all means apply here.) And if you say that you'd rather go into experimental physics than theoretical physics, this will help you as well. Those "top-ranked" whiz kids that I mentioned above all want to go into string theory and be the next Einstein. (I should know, I was one of them.) Someone who's done solid experimental work (with glowing letters to that effect) and who says they want to continue in that vein, on the other hand, isn't really competing with those whiz kids when the committee tries to make up a balanced class.
So in sum? Yes, I would apply. I would apply for a higher number of places than average, since you do have stains on your record, and I would be sure that the places you apply have programs in the type of physics you want to go into so that your effort isn't wasted. But I wouldn't write off grad school for you as a lost cause, not by a long shot.
Good luck. Feel free to e-mail or PM me if you want to ask more questions.
posted by Johnny Assay at 7:19 PM on December 2, 2007 [1 favorite]
I'll be honest: a low GPA *and* a low subject GRE is a big horkin' red flag. If this is the case, then you will simply not be one of the top-ranked applicants to any program. There will, guaranteed, be many other students who apply who have recommendations as glowing as yours and who may even have a published paper or two, but who also scored over 950 on the Physics GRE and got a 3.6 GPA overall with a 3.9 average in their physics & math classes. The amount of time that you took to complete your bachelor's will also look be a blot on your record to someone reading your application. Graduate physics programs have enough trouble getting their students to graduate quickly that they would be less likely to accept someone who shows evidence of directionlessness in their past.
That said: the top physics programs in the U.S. do not only admit their "top-ranked choices"; if they did, then they would all be in competition for the same group of 50-100 students, and none of them would be able to completely fill out their incoming classes. (Well, maybe Harvard could. But.) Your application will therefore not be rejected out of hand (and believe me, there are plenty that are.) You will, I'm afraid, be something of a marginal case; but we admitted a fair number of marginal cases when I sat on the committee, and when you factor in the number of schools that most physics majors apply to, I'm sure that even the marginal cases that we had to reject were accepted somewhere else.
It also helps, he said, that the specific field I want to enter doesn't have all that many students applying.
This can help, as long as you're sure that the programs in question actually have programs in this field. If you applied to my program wanting to do plasma physics, for example, you wouldn't be admitted, simply because there's absolutely nobody here researching plasma physics. (From your description, though, I'm guessing that a lot of research in your field is conducted in subterranean tunnels, in which case you should by all means apply here.) And if you say that you'd rather go into experimental physics than theoretical physics, this will help you as well. Those "top-ranked" whiz kids that I mentioned above all want to go into string theory and be the next Einstein. (I should know, I was one of them.) Someone who's done solid experimental work (with glowing letters to that effect) and who says they want to continue in that vein, on the other hand, isn't really competing with those whiz kids when the committee tries to make up a balanced class.
So in sum? Yes, I would apply. I would apply for a higher number of places than average, since you do have stains on your record, and I would be sure that the places you apply have programs in the type of physics you want to go into so that your effort isn't wasted. But I wouldn't write off grad school for you as a lost cause, not by a long shot.
Good luck. Feel free to e-mail or PM me if you want to ask more questions.
posted by Johnny Assay at 7:19 PM on December 2, 2007 [1 favorite]
As others have said, write a letter saying in sum what your post says: "I know my cumulative GPA looks shaky, here's why: I was too immature when I started college. But once I found physics, I knew I'd found where I belonged. Look, my in-major GPA is 3.6." And recommendations from your profs will help too. By all means, apply.
posted by Joe Invisible at 7:25 PM on December 2, 2007
posted by Joe Invisible at 7:25 PM on December 2, 2007
Not my field but it seems like it would hurt least to cram and take the GRE subject test again. It's the easiest way to remove a red mark from your application.
posted by stratastar at 5:25 AM on December 3, 2007
posted by stratastar at 5:25 AM on December 3, 2007
Take the GRE subject test again. I suspect you'll be able to get into *a* school with all of the stuff you've heard, but 50-60th percentile GRE will probably knock you out of the running for top level.
(I mean, being in the top 50% of students that want to go to graduate school in physics does mean you're a smart cookie - but the top schools are going to want the best of the best, yeah? Admittedly, I'm math, but I'm guessing the two are pretty similar hoops-to-jump-through wise - and the top tier schools want at least a 70th or an 80th percentile subject GRE.)
posted by lastyearsfad at 7:37 AM on December 3, 2007
(I mean, being in the top 50% of students that want to go to graduate school in physics does mean you're a smart cookie - but the top schools are going to want the best of the best, yeah? Admittedly, I'm math, but I'm guessing the two are pretty similar hoops-to-jump-through wise - and the top tier schools want at least a 70th or an 80th percentile subject GRE.)
posted by lastyearsfad at 7:37 AM on December 3, 2007
I'd suggest retaking the GRE; it can only hurt your wallet. And like Assay said, a desire to do experiment is a plus--they have enough theory wannabes to sort through.
Stress the research work you've already done. It gives you a leg up in the process of being a successful researcher, and that will get noticed.
Good luck.
posted by stevis23 at 8:05 AM on December 3, 2007
Stress the research work you've already done. It gives you a leg up in the process of being a successful researcher, and that will get noticed.
Good luck.
posted by stevis23 at 8:05 AM on December 3, 2007
Response by poster: Thanks everyone, for all the advice. It is greatly appreciated.
A clarification:
I'm definitely going into experimental work, with maybe some computational if I can swing it. I'd like to do theory but I know I don't have the head for it, unfortunately. This helps a lot with my GREs, though, since the bar is much lower than for a theorist.
posted by Loto at 10:07 PM on December 4, 2007
A clarification:
I'm definitely going into experimental work, with maybe some computational if I can swing it. I'd like to do theory but I know I don't have the head for it, unfortunately. This helps a lot with my GREs, though, since the bar is much lower than for a theorist.
posted by Loto at 10:07 PM on December 4, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
Do the prof that you work with KNOW people at these other schools? You have no idea how much personal recommendations matter.
posted by k8t at 4:11 PM on December 2, 2007