Sexy ex sabotage

December 2, 2007 10:37 AM

How to tolerate his flirtatious ex? (slightly NSFW)

So, long story short, but my boyfriend had gone out with her for 3 years and they broke up a few months before he met me (he dumped her because he didn't see things going anywhere). I didn't really know about her for awhile, but slowly the picture became clear.

The "friend" he was occasionally having dinner with was her. It doesn't really bother me he was hanging out with and ex, but it did irk me that he had to hide it. It became clear why as the months went on. She is not over him. Apparently she still wants to have sex with him and still brings it up in their conversations, a la, OMG I still want to have sex with you or do you still want to look at my breasts. She is clearly trying to get him to cheat or try to sabotage our relationship.

I honestly have trouble not being suspicious. I told him that I think it's inappropriate for either of us to be friends with other people who are very open about wanting sex. He said that he wouldn't care if I was friends with a sex-crazed ex and that I was being posessive.

Is this a doomed relationship? Is it even worth it to try to say "hey, I'm not doing this relationship unless you lay down the law with her about being a flirt, give her some space, or don't see her at all."

It's hard for me because I don't want to be controlling, try to change him, and I understand why it might be hard to cut ties with someone you were together with for so long even if they are being awful. He doesn't want to talk about it much or make a decision, but I feel dejected and upset that my relatively new relationship is being messed with before we have time to build trust together.

posted by idle to human relations (42 answers total)

Also: he says he would never consider cheating and that he doesn't flirt back, so in his mind it's OK.
posted by idle at 10:39 AM on December 2, 2007

You don't mention how long you two have been together.

At any rate, the fact that he doesn't want to talk about it much and is unwilling to make a decision doesn't bode well. Yes, he needs time to get over his 3 years long (!) relationship, but he's the one who broke up with her, and he's the one in a new relationship now, not her. It's his responsibility to be fair to all parties involved and at this point he's really just fence sitting.

It doesn't matter whether the same scenario bothers him, it matters that it bothers YOU. And I would think not wanting your boyfriend to have regular meetings with someone who's hell-bent on getting into his pants isn't even within the spectrum of possessiveness.

Lay it down very, very clearly how much this bothers you, and try to figure out how you two can solve it. Don't accuse him of anything, but make it clear that this is something you need/would like his help with.

(PS, you don't mention any positive points about the relationship. make of that what you will.)
posted by Phire at 10:41 AM on December 2, 2007

If he doesn't see why spending time with someone that was so blatantly trying to get him into bed is an issue, then I suggest the problem lies deeper. The fact that he says he isn't interested isn't the point. He clearly hasn't told her to back off, so it is at the very least being implicitly encouraged.

I can't think of a single woman that would tolerate that of me, and have many (one very recent) examples where another woman's behaviour has made them uncomfortable, when I thought it was innocent/not an issue. He either needs to make the situation comfortable for you (out of respect) or remove the situation.

Either you haven't made enough of an issue of it for him to realise how you feel, or you need to ask him outright, as if he refuses, it show (to my mind) a distinct lack of respect and hence ultimate relationship-doomage.
posted by Brockles at 10:46 AM on December 2, 2007

Yeah, I dunno. People always say rebound relationships don't last.
posted by delmoi at 10:47 AM on December 2, 2007 [1 favorite]

How do you know about the stuff that she's saying (you say "apparently" as though you have not witnessed her behavior)? Did he tell you? And how did he tell you?
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 10:49 AM on December 2, 2007 [1 favorite]

Have you met the ex? If not, I think it might be appropriate to ask to meet her, as then you might get a better picture of what their relationship is like and it might make it harder for her, knowing you, to keep hitting on your boyfriend. If she's really determined to get him back though, this might make no difference whatsoever.

If you haven't met her, how do you know she's doing these provocative things? If your boyfriend is telling you this, I might take it as a sign that he's sort of preparing you or letting you know that she's definitely not out of the picture completely.

Is the relationship doomed? Well, I wouldn't say that, but I know that I would feel uncomfortable in this situation as well, and I think you should bring your discomfort up with him in a rational way. I wouldn't give any ultimatums, but make it clear that this situation is not really working and you'd like to figure this out together how you can both feel comfortable in the relationship.
posted by harrumph at 10:52 AM on December 2, 2007

Hiding the fact that he is hanging out with an ex that wants to bang him silly despite the fact that he is in a relationship tells us that

1) She can't be trusted

2) He can't be trusted, as he was not upfront about an issue that anyone with a functioning brain would find troubling.

It sounds like you made it clear that this bothers you and he lamely responds with "I would never consider cheating". He sounds pretty inconsiderate of your feelings.

Perhaps if he wanted to hang out with the ex and you at first until you were comfortable with a 'red flag he is cheating' situation it would be fine. But from the information provided it sounds pretty bad.
posted by munchingzombie at 10:54 AM on December 2, 2007 [1 favorite]

The "hanging out with flirtatious ex" isn't necessarily a deal-breaker in and of itself. But, once you've respectfully and after due consideration identified a personal boundary, or personal feelings about the kinds of behavior you find appropriate within a relationship, someone who can't/won't/doesn't respect that boundary is not a good partner for you. My recommendation is that if, early in a relationship, you identify a major disagreement on basic, fundamental relationship "rules", that attempting to proceed further is only likely to result in pain, heartbreak, anxiety, and a messy breakup. I know it seems painful now, but it will only get moreso as you become closer.

Your partner is not "bad" for disagreeing with you, people are allowed to feel how they wish. It's absolutely a good idea to see if further discussion can lead to a compromise and meeting of the minds (but if he refuses to open the subject to discussion, I'm getting a bad idea about his respect and maturity levels). If you feel strongly about this, do not be manipulated into thinking your concerns unreasonable. Your feelings ARE reasonable, you DO have a "right" to be bothered by this behavior, and you're NOT being controlling (IMO).

So, my answer is DON'T tolerate the ex, if your boundaries are being crossed. It sounds like this guy is a creep, and if you're considerate enough to care about HIS feelings you can obviously do WAY better.
posted by bunnycup at 10:55 AM on December 2, 2007 [2 favorites]

Unless he is willing to clearly and unequivocally tell her to cut that crap out, your relationship is doomed. Period.
posted by tkolar at 10:56 AM on December 2, 2007

He isn't over her, either. If he was, he wouldn't be meeting with her given the circumstances. He persists even when he has been made aware you aren't comfortable with it. He is sort of torturing the ex, seeing what kind of hoops he can make her jump through to prove herself, and you are the soft cushion in the background. If he was really over her, he would take what you said under greater advisement and not see her anymore, especially if she is still lusting after him. He is enjoying the ego stroke and he sounds selfish.
posted by 45moore45 at 10:59 AM on December 2, 2007 [1 favorite]

In the words of so many others, DTMFA.
posted by phredgreen at 11:02 AM on December 2, 2007 [2 favorites]

We don't have the whole picture here, obviously. It's possible, for example, that his ex is acting all forlorn when she's not flirting, and he wants to be a nice guy and cheer her up. And maybe he saw some early signs of jealousy in you that made him decide not to tell you he was still going to dinners with her.

That's me trying to be fair to your boyfriend, and I'm sure some other people can sketch out some other scenarios in which he's well-meaning but naive, at worst.

But my gut reaction is that he's playing with fire. He's aware now of your concerns, but has dismissed them. He values either the time with his ex or his own autonomy more than dealing with your discomfort. Maybe he enjoys the feeling of control: he rejected her, but she still wants him. He may feel quite confident that he won't get back with her, and maybe he never will. But I've seen this type of scenario play out exactly as you fear.

Basically, if his actions bother you enough that you're willing to risk him walking away, you have to ask him to reconsider what he's doing. Have a quiet talk with him. Make it clear how uncomfortable you are. And if he digs in his heels, walk away.
posted by maudlin at 11:03 AM on December 2, 2007 [2 favorites]

I never understand why people complicate these sorts of issues so much. Perhaps it takes a stranger's objectivity to lay it out, but:

1. You're dating someone who lied to you (warning flag 1);
2. The lie was about seeing an ex (warning flag 2);
3. The ex wants to pursue a sexual and/or romantic relationship with your partner, which you aren't OK with (warning flag 3);
4. Your partner is reluctant to talk about this with you or come to a resolution (warning flag 4).

What more does he need to do? You've got the information - this guy is either spineless when it comes to his ex, is horribly insecure and is digging the ego boost, or is/is planning to cheat on you.

Make your own choice about which (if any) of those three are something you can live with in a partner, and either accept them or DTMFA.
posted by ellF at 11:13 AM on December 2, 2007 [8 favorites]

it might make it harder for her, knowing you, to keep hitting on your boyfriend

Yeah, not true. Given that the OP has already stated that she's trying to sabotage the relationship, the Ex probably views the OP at least somewhat resentfully for being with the boyfriend instead of her. Plus female politics just don't work that way.
posted by Phire at 11:14 AM on December 2, 2007

How to tolerate his flirtatious ex?

No, honey. The question is "How fast can I dump this lying, cowardly motherfucker who disrespects my feelings?"

This has no happy ending. He's not going to wake up one day and see how not-cool this is, or even if he does, he's not going to act on that. This guy is a coward. He doesn't tell his ex to back off, even though he likely knows that's the right thing to do. He isn't up front and honest with you, because he doesn't want the confrontation. This type of guy is not worth your time.
posted by desjardins at 11:23 AM on December 2, 2007 [2 favorites]

If my girlfriend tolerated this kind of behavior in me, I probably wouldn't respect her that much. All the great women I've dated would never have put up with this kind of crap.
posted by sexymofo at 11:23 AM on December 2, 2007

He said that he wouldn't care if I was friends with a sex-crazed ex and that I was being posessive.

Buuuuullshit. He might not care right now, because right now he's got two girls he can fuck.

Methinks you need to start dating men and not adolescent children, or you will never be free of this stupidity. You're being "too possessive" because you don't like that he secretly hangs out with his sex-starved ex-girlfriend? What the fucking fuck is wrong with people these days? What's wrong with you for not laughing hysterically in his face after that comment?

Stop putting up with his shit.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 11:26 AM on December 2, 2007 [8 favorites]

I've been the ex in a pretty similar situation. Here's what happened:

1. We went out and got dinners and such on a regular basis for years, during which time he never told me that he was dating anyone else. (So, are you sure she knows?)
2. I decided I was moving out of town. (This is when, two years later, he told me he was seeing her.)
3. Once I'm in my new town, I realize that I miss the ex and that I want to try things again. He tells me that he can't see himself spending his life with his current girlfriend, and that the reason he doesn't want to get back together with me is because he knows we would get married and he's not ready for that yet.
4. I go and visit. We have sex. All of a sudden the current girlfriend is super important, despite suggesting to me that she wasn't.
5. I go home. He calls me every night just to say goodnight, etc. I tell him that I'm the other woman and that I deserve better than that, and that he's lying to his current GF etc etc.
6. He tells everybody in the town I used to live in that I'm crazy and think we're having an affair just because he helped me get through a bad breakup.
7. I cut off all communication after realizing what a manipulative jerk he is.

In other words, I wouldn't trust the situation. And that situation sounds extraordinarily familiar to me.
posted by plaingurl at 11:27 AM on December 2, 2007 [2 favorites]

It's dysfunctional for the boyfriend to cheer up the woman he broke up with.
posted by rhizome at 11:33 AM on December 2, 2007 [1 favorite]

Unless he is willing to clearly and unequivocally tell her to cut that crap out, your relationship is doomed.

Yup. And it doesn't sound like he is.
posted by languagehat at 11:40 AM on December 2, 2007

It would be one thing if he was casually crossing paths with this woman when hanging out with mutual friends. It doesn't sound like that at all. Instead he's lying about this chick's advances in order to mess with you, or he's telling something like the truth (finally), though probably leaving out how he is getting off on his attention.

Whatever the case, time to DTMFA
posted by Good Brain at 11:49 AM on December 2, 2007

I feel at least one person ought to say that it's not obvious the relationship is doomed. As far as I can see, OP's boyfriend didn't lie to her -- if I understand the post correctly, the chain of events is

Boyfriend: I have dinner with my ex sometimes and she wants me back
OP: I'm not into that
BF: I really want to keep doing this

not

OP: I'm not into you dining with your ex

followed BF going on with the meetings clandestinely.

For lots of people, it's pretty important to remain friends with people you used to love. I think it's completely reasonable for you to insist he not see her, under the circumstances. But it would be completely reasonable for your boyfriend not to want to be in a relationship where some friendships are off-limits. I agree with the people who think you should ask your BF if he's willing to bring you along when he sees his ex. It might be uncomfortable at first, but it's a way for him to stay friends with someone meaningful to him (assuming that's his sincere intention) in a way that feels safer to you than the present arrangement.
posted by escabeche at 12:01 PM on December 2, 2007 [1 favorite]

escabeche, re-read the OP. "The "friend" he was occasionally having dinner with was her. It doesn't really bother me he was hanging out with and ex, but it did irk me that he had to hide it."

There's an implicit lie in telling your partner that you're meeting a friend for dinner, and seeing your ex.
posted by ellF at 12:27 PM on December 2, 2007

I think that him having done this ought to be forgivable. He should cease the behavior right away, but I'm with those who say the relationship is not necessarily doomed. I don't think him claiming he doesn't want her back (whether this is true or not) changes the fact that he should stop seeing her. Even if he has no interest in her anymore, being with someone who says they want to have sex with you frequently is really awkward if the feeling is not mutual. I can't imagine a justification for this. So there's reason number one he needs to stop. I guess it's plausible (but not likely) that he's still meeting her out of pity, in which case he needs to tell her that seeing him while he doesn't reciprocate her feelings is useless, and she needs to get support elsewhere. And reason number 2 is of course that it's rather unlikely that he really has no lingering feelings towards her.

Hiding the fact that he was meeting her was obviously a really stupid thing. And being honest about it, but continuing to do it is also stupid. But people make mistakes, and hide things sometimes. And coming out of a long relationship will always cloud one's judgment. What he does in response to these, to show that he's serious about being with you is what really shows whether or not he's worth your time, not whatever dumb mistakes he's made in the past.
posted by gauchodaspampas at 12:59 PM on December 2, 2007

You can never control or change anybody. Maybe you are and maybe you aren't - who knows - but always remember that!
"You could nag a man to death but you can't make him change."

This is how it is, he's even told you that's how it is. So if you don't like it Hun, leave now before it gets harder ect ect. (Personally I'd tell him to seriously jam it! For all the obvious reasons :) )
posted by mu~ha~ha~ha~har at 12:59 PM on December 2, 2007

He's being disrespectful to both of you. He wants to have his cake and eat it too, or at least have some backup cake lined up just in case he loses the primary cake.

He's leading her on. You wouldn't want to be with someone who would lead a girl on like that, even if he wasn't leading on another girl while dating you!

The only way to win in this situation is to be the first one out. At some point not too long from now, you'll look back and be so glad you were.
posted by lampoil at 1:21 PM on December 2, 2007

I told him that I think it's inappropriate for either of us to be friends with other people who are very open about wanting sex. He said that he wouldn't care if I was friends with a sex-crazed ex and that I was being posessive.

This is misdirection. It doesn't matter at all if he'd be okay with you doing something similar. What matters is that you are bothered by something, and you told him about it. It's like if you were allergic to dogs and he wasn't and he told you "I don't see why the dogs bother you. They don't bother me."

Of course, that doesn't mean that he has to agree with everything you say. But he should be able to explain his rationale with something other than "Well, I wouldn't care if you did the same thing."
posted by 23skidoo at 2:57 PM on December 2, 2007 [4 favorites]

It's like if you were allergic to dogs and he wasn't and he told you "I don't see why the dogs bother you. They don't bother me."

On top of which, at this stage he is just speculating about whether he's "allergic to dogs". He's just saying it's weird of you to sneeze when you interact with canines, and he would definitely never do something so irrational, but having never actually been forced to interact with canines (never having been faced with what it actually feels like when you actually have a real flesh & blood sex-crazed ex-boyfriend at a time when he does not have anyone chasing after him), he really doesn't know what his reaction would be.
posted by mdn at 3:26 PM on December 2, 2007

This could be something that blows over, or it could be something that snowballs. Or it could remain exactly like this and always sorta drive you nuts. Weigh the pros and cons of enabling his behavior and waiting for her to hopefully disappear versus dumping him and never knowing what might have been.
(You can tell that I'm a member of the "try everything and if it fails, welp, at least you tried!" camp).
posted by lizzicide at 3:49 PM on December 2, 2007

My partner remained friends with an ex when we were getting together--and the two of us (the ex and me) had some interesting sparks around things like her visiting and taking liberties in the house. My partner would say, "She's just used to it because we lived together so long," and I would say, "But I expect a guest to act like a guest," and we would go around and around. I wanted him to tell her to stop doing things like washing my damn dishes or rooting around in my linen closet looking for moisturizer without asking, and he wouldn't do it, because he didn't see it as a problem.

AFAIK, the ex was not trying to have sex with him, or vice versa, so our situation isn't the same. But there was this way they had of being intimate, from knowing each other and living together, that was hard for me sometimes.

My point is, though, that 14 years later, she's still one of his best friends, and has becomes one of mine just through proximity and time.

If you're not ready to dump him, you might try suggesting that the three of you hang out some. If she's a friend of his, and you stay together, eventually she's going to have to become a friend of yours, too. At least, that's true IME. If he says it's important for them to have time together just the two of them, suggest, for instance, that you all have dinner together and that they then have a brief coffee together someplace on the way home, or some such.

If he agrees to spend time together, try to greet the ex with an open heart. I could have saved myself a lot of grief if I'd been friendlier to my partner's ex, and less threatened by her, from the get-go.

If he's really not willing to flex on this at all, then what all the PPs have said is probably true--he's bet-hedging, and you can't get out of there too soon.
posted by not that girl at 4:12 PM on December 2, 2007

mm, i think if he was having dinner with his ex and didn't tell you upfront, then there isn't anything to build trust -on-.

i hate to say it, but it sounds like you're his rebound. it sounds like he's not over her, and he's telling you all this stuff to challenge you to dump him (i'm guessing because he's feeling guilty--some guys think that if they just show you how screwed up they are, you'll do the heavy lifting and dump them...which is easier on their conscience somehow.)

call his bluff. cut your losses and leave.
posted by thinkingwoman at 4:13 PM on December 2, 2007

The "friend" he was occasionally having dinner with was her. It doesn't really bother me he was hanging out with and ex, but it did irk me that he had to hide it.

It doesn't really bother me he was hanging out with and ex, but it did irk me that he had to hide it.

Its not a question of "is this happening or not?" Its an odds question.

The odds are not good. You have red flags. Act accordingly. Love is a numbers game. Recognizing that allows you to accept red flags for what they are--indicators that the odds are stacked against you. I rarely answer relationshipfilter questions with a yes or no but this is an exception. No.
posted by Ironmouth at 5:03 PM on December 2, 2007

it would be hard to say whether this relationship is necessarily doomed but it does say a lot that he would dismiss something that (legitimately) makes you uncomfortable. i don't have an issue with my bf being friends with his exes (in fact, one of his closest friends is an ex) but i would if the ex made it very clear that she still wanted to get into his pants. the cool thing is, if that was the case, it would make my bf extremely uncomfortable to be around the ex as well. there is a line between trying to stay friends with an ex and the dynamic between your bf and his ex.

that said, i think that the fact that your bf persists in seeing his ex despite her behavior indicates that he clearly gets off on the fact that she still wants him so badly—and that is definitely an issue that, along with his initial lie of omission of who exactly he was having dinners with and his dismissal of your concerns, could lead to other problems as well as indicate what kind of guy you're dating.

i wouldn't tolerate this kind of behavior from someone if they didn't make any effort to respect the relationship they are currently in, as opposed to treating the ex with more respect than me.
posted by violetk at 5:21 PM on December 2, 2007

How about showing boyfriend this thread and giving him a chance to make this right? You can't make the situation better, only he can. And what he's doing to you isn't fair. So give him one last chance to prove that he's good enough for you.
posted by gesamtkunstwerk at 5:48 PM on December 2, 2007

Another thought. If he's do desperate for the "unwanted" sexual attention from his ex, what is he going to want from you?
posted by gesamtkunstwerk at 5:53 PM on December 2, 2007

Oh, sweet double-standards!

How many AskMeFi threads have there been with the roles reversed with exactly the opposite advice? Guys getting jealous over their girlfriends' time spent with horny exes always gets a standard "you're being immature and paranoid, grow up" response, whereas the whole community rises up in common indignity when the guy hangs out with an ex.

Oh well, I'll throw in my advice. You are entitled to pursue any sort of relationship you want. If you don't want a guy who is friends with his ex, then tell him that he needs to cut her off or else you're out the door. The trick to this is that it cannot be delivered as an ultimatum or some sort of blackmail where you're holding your relationship hostage to get what you want. It has to be a simple fact in your heart; that you are entitled to the kind of relationship you want, and if this one isn't it, then you need a different one.
posted by Willie0248 at 6:31 PM on December 2, 2007

Willie, AskMe is hardly as biased as that. Can you actually link to a thread where it's a guy complaining about a girl spending time with an ex - or any other person - who actively, blatantly states that they want to get into her pants?? IME AskMe actually comes down on the side of the person in the relationship in most cases, male or female, unless the contact maintained really is inane.
posted by Phire at 7:09 PM on December 2, 2007

Ok, he lied about her from the get-go. This is not a good start. It's not a matter of him still wanting to be friends with her, obviously, it's the fact that she's obviously ready and willing to spread 'em on command (pardon the image). :) I don't know too many men who are going to continue to turn that down. He's most likely going to give in at some point and then you'll be kicking yourself cause you saw it comin. If he's unwilling to bend about the subject of another woman, it's fishy. Take it from someone who learned the hard way.
posted by CwgrlUp at 7:31 PM on December 2, 2007

Of course she's trying to sabotage things! However, don't insult boyfriend by letting on that you don't think he can control himself. Surely he can be understanding of how you feel, but let's be clear here. The problem is of your own creation, and you'll only make things worse by trying to make your insecurity(however well-justified) someone else's problem.

If he does cheat, then he wasn't right for you anyways.

Read pretty much any AskMe relationship question. They always get full of comments from people with the most negative, unflattering assumptions about human nature.
posted by Mr. Gunn at 7:39 PM on December 2, 2007

Hey, to any other people who might read this, don't ever do anything in haste. While I may have been right to be uncomfortable with the situation and he may have been wrong to not give the relationship time to develop before seeing and talking with her, I should have let time show the true course of things. Unfortunately my own insecurity got in the way.

Long story short: I tried to find out about this behind his back, violated his trust, got caught...well the relationship was over before it even had time to form.

I am young, I made a mistake, maybe he made a mistake. But now I have learned a lot, namely that you should try to give things a chance before resorting to slime and that if you really want to love someone maybe you should respect how hard breaking up is and trust them to work it out. I don't know how it would have ended, but maybe I should have tried to see where it was going.
posted by idle at 8:55 PM on December 2, 2007

idle, I'm really sorry it worked out that way.
posted by escabeche at 9:18 PM on December 2, 2007

idle, I'm not endorsing unethical snooping, but the 'wait and trust' method you think you should have used would mean he was still misleading you about spending time with his ex. I think you are taking the wrong lesson from this.

If you were suspicious about his friend, you should have questioned him directly. What is your friend's name? How long have you known her? Did you ever date her? How do you feel about her now? I'd like to meet her. Can we all three get together next time? Okay, not all at once like that... but assuming they were asked without hostility, none of these are questions that should be any problem to answer if it were really a just-friends situation. If he had evaded these questions, that would have been a pretty strong signal that he was hiding things from you, which is never a good thing in a relationship.

On his part, the lesson to learn is that he should have been up front with you from the start about who he was seeing and the two of you could have have an open discussion about boundaries and come to some kind of resolution.

Good luck to you in your next relationship.
posted by happyturtle at 6:23 AM on December 3, 2007