How long is waitlist at WMA or CAA?

December 1, 2007 5:33 PM

How long is the wait list to start working at William Morris or CAA?

I'm extremely interested in getting a job at a talent agency that represents musicians/bands. William Morris is my first choice since I think their artist roster is where the future of music will be. I have a gen'l idea about CAA's roster, but not much since it's not public.

Anyway, I want to time my start date as best as possible. I need to save up money to compensate for the meager salary. I figure that I can have enough saved up by June 1st. The second issue is that under my current contract, I have to give my employer 30 days notice.

So does anyone know how long it takes for WMA and/or CAA to call someone back in for an interview? How long from the first interview until you start work?

Lastly, how good are the job prospects for someone like me... I'm 24 and a lawyer. I don't have any direct experience in the industry, but I took several entertainment law classes while in law school. I also read billboard.biz and .com everyday, variety.com, and deadlinehollywooddaily.com about once a week. I'm extremely passionate about music and truly believe that I'll be the next David Geffen. I know what's going to be hot months before it happens. I would also say that I'm pretty good in social settings. However, I don't know anyone in the industry that can call up an agent to get me an interview. So what are the odds that w/ all the resumes and cover letters that they get at the LA office, they'll call me back?

posted by dannon205 to work & money (16 comments total)

Everyone starts off as an assistant. Your wait time to hear back probably won't be that bad as you think. There is a high turn around for assistants because many people just end up hating it. It's a tough job if you get a bad boss and unfortunately in tinseltown, there are a lot of bad bosses in big agencies. I've heard horror stories. If you watch "Entourage" you get a pretty accurate if not overly sensational view of that world. The few agent friends I have, started out as assistants and then went through a few years of hell before moving up to an agent position.

So to get back to your original question. High turn-around job = not long wait. Just hang in there, it may take some time if you don't know anyone but if you stick at it, you'll get the call back eventually. Good luck!
posted by cazoo at 6:28 PM on December 1, 2007

Are you talking about entertainment law, or A&R/management?
posted by Jairus at 6:30 PM on December 1, 2007

BTW, you should keep your options open to other agencies. If you are just trying to get into CAA or William Morris, you may overlook some good positions at smaller boutique agencies.
posted by cazoo at 6:32 PM on December 1, 2007

I definitely know the environment. I'm a huge fan of the show Entourage. I've also read The Mailroom, which is a compilation of interviews w/ ppl who started out in the mailroom aka "Agent Trainee Program."

I'm definitely interested in other agencies, ICM, and UTA. However, they're music dept's are pretty small. I feel as if WMA has the best music dept by far, which is why I'm most interested in WMA. CAA is pretty good too, though.

To Jairus, William Morris and CAA are talent agencies. They handle booking concert dates/negotiating money for the artists. It does involve some scouting, but generally all of their artists already have a record deal. The record industry is dead. It's about touring.
posted by dannon205 at 6:41 PM on December 1, 2007

Oh, another thing. I haven't actually applied yet b/c I don't want to get a call back and have to turn it down. Yet, I don't want to waste time by over-waiting before sending in my resume.

I also forgot to say, that a lot of boutique agencies don't even have a music dept. Even Endeavor, which is one of the Big 5 doesn't have a music dept.
posted by dannon205 at 6:43 PM on December 1, 2007

I know people with legal or accounting or public relation degrees who've worked as booking agents, band managers and so on - for years, many of them very successful too. Most couldn't get a reasonable job at CAA or WMA. Even jobs working in the mail room are tough to find, and at 24 you're arriving very late on the scene, especially with no music biz experience and no personal connections - these are very nepotistic places. Most "open" lower-level jobs are staffed by interns, who frequently work for eons at the agency before being granted an interview. It's unlikely you'd get a call back for an interview, and the odds of getting a position minute. I've got to say that even asking how long after the first interview before one might start is just . . . scary. Very few people are hired. The odds you'd get called are small. They generally have few openings, except for unpaid or highly specialized ones. With all sorts of lay-offs in the industry, many highly qualified people with loads of experience are competing for jobs far beneath their histories.

And knowing what's going to be "hot" months before it happens isn't much of a skill, and even if it were, it's the sort of thing that isn't regarded as a plus - at the CAA / WMA level, they simply don't need people who claim to have a sort of A&R nose. *Everyone* thinks they know what's "hot" in advance of most of their peers, so to even try to substantiate this is indicative of a clueless soul. Not to mention it's got little if anything to do with any job you might have at one of these agencies. And "where the future of music will be" - well, the roster of either agency is comprised of people who've made it, are about to make it anyway, or have been vetted from their contacts, contracts, previous histories and so on. The "choosing" is already done; it's a bit like saying that you believe that owning a million shares of Microsoft might make you rich. It's already happened.

You're a lawyer. Help some bands with legal advice and contract negotiation. Start booking shows wherever you live. Build a rep in your local music scene. If you get very far in this, you'll probably end up not wanting to work at WMA or CAA anyhow.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 6:54 PM on December 1, 2007 [1 favorite]

they simply don't need people who claim to have a sort of A&R nose.

With all due respect, I disagree. WMA's most successful music agents had an A&R nose. The Colonel signed Elvis. David Geffen signed several unknown acts, including The Eagles, Jackson Browne, Joni Mitchell, Laura Nyro. David Geffen observed that the most successful were the ones who signed the acts. WMA passed on The Beatles and paid dearly for it. To be at the top you need to know who the next Britney or The Beatles is going to be. I'm sure there are plenty of more examples, but these are the ones that I know of.

Sure they already represent music's top acts, but one day these will be replaced by emerging artists like Rhianna. If you can sign Rhianna to a 5 yr deal before your competitor does, the agency will be far better off.

Start booking shows wherever you live. Build a rep in your local music scene.

I already thought of that, but it won't work. There isn't much of a local music scene in Las Vegas. You'd think there would be, but there's not. The only venues are inside the major casinos. As a result, it's all controlled by large promoters and Live Nation. Even small venues, like a lounge, are inside casinos.

Vegas is an unusual market. Despite having a population of almost 2 million, there isn't much of a scene or culture here.

If I ever want to do it, I need to move to LA.
posted by dannon205 at 7:36 PM on December 1, 2007

There isn't much of a local music scene in Las Vegas. You'd think there would be, but there's not. The only venues are inside the major casinos. As a result, it's all controlled by large promoters and Live Nation. Even small venues, like a lounge, are inside casinos.

I guess this is kind of tangential, and maybe you know about these, but the Bunkhouse Saloon, The Art Bar, and The Beauty Bar are all non-casino venues where local and touring bands are booked by small promoters.
posted by ludwig_van at 8:15 PM on December 1, 2007

. . .and at 24 you're arriving very late on the scene. . .

From what I have read on this topic I understand many agent trainees begin working at an agency after having earned a JD or MBA.

How could the poster be arriving late on the scene if he would be applying with a JD and work experience before the age of 25?
posted by MLIS at 8:34 PM on December 1, 2007

Mefite jpowers did it last year. see here and then look at his posting history. He has since quit, it sounds like the hours were too much. I believe he was not going to be working in the music end of things, but the film end. You might MeMail him if he doesn't spontaneously answer here.
posted by LobsterMitten at 9:28 PM on December 1, 2007

they simply don't need people who claim to have a sort of A&R nose.

With all due respect, I disagree. WMA's most successful music agents had an A&R nose.

It may have worked out that way. But as I said, everyone believes they have this quality. Today, most successful music agents at these agencies have proved themselves to some extent before working there - to walk in the door and present this quality as something special will just make you look a bit pretentious.

I've worked with half a dozen artists / bands who have CAA and WMA as their agents; the agencies are pretty adept at snapping things up as soon as it's not ridiculous to do so; it's been my experience that any act on a major can get a deal agent deal based solely on that fact. The highly competitive part of things is years away for you, and that's if you're exceedingly good and quite lucky. I guess another way of putting this is to tell you that people who cast off a vibe that their talent-spotting ability is going to mean anything to anyone tend to be perceived as a bit unrealistic and dreamy. And I'd guess that that's based on a history of people like that walking in the door.

I realize that Las Vegas doesn't have much of a local scene, but so what? Find a place with a PA and space for 100 patrons and book out of town acts. Call the Billions Corporation or the Windish Agency or any number of indie agencies and tell them you're promoting shows, and if they've got a band who'll be passing through Las Vegas and will play for a small guarantee plus the remainder the door, you'll promote the hell out of it and take nothing, because you are trying to establish a scene. If you sound like you know what you're doing, they may trust you on it, or they ask for a small deposit of a couple of hundred dollars. You CAN promote a successful show, if you hustle. You can lose money too, but generally the acts will love you for trying and giving them some place to play on a Tuesday night. And you won't lose much, and you get great media contacts, you'll get to know bands, the ins and outs of touring and you'll learn a lot about the business. The weakness of Las Vegas is NO EXCUSE to do nothing; in fact, to many people it just means it's a whole lot easier to get things done, because no one else is doing them.

I know plenty of people who do (or did) this; I do it myself. Additionally, they made space for the bands to crash in their homes and apartments when in town, helped them in any way they could and made themselves indispensible. They're the ones who got the great jobs at the agencies. (And have great stories about cooking dinner for the Flaming Lips and Rufus Wainwright and Neko Case and others!)

If you can't book a few shows in a town as bursting with vacancies and opportunities as Las Vegas, why should CAA hire you?

I don't mean to be harsh; I wish you luck. But show some initiative before applying, and your dreams are far less likely to be crushed.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 10:32 PM on December 1, 2007 [2 favorites]

The answers to your questions about getting called back for an interview and time to start work are completely dependent on soft factors such as whether anyone currently at WM or CAA gives a crap about whether you live or die.

You need to move to LA now and start meeting people. That's your next step.
posted by bingo at 8:49 AM on December 2, 2007

To Jairus, William Morris and CAA are talent agencies. They handle booking concert dates/negotiating money for the artists. It does involve some scouting, but generally all of their artists already have a record deal. The record industry is dead. It's about touring.

dannon205, I know who they are. I work with WMA regularly, and I know people who have been hired recently at WMA -- in both entertainment law, and in A&R/management. This is why I'm asking.
posted by Jairus at 9:17 AM on December 2, 2007

I realize that Las Vegas doesn't have much of a local scene, but so what? Find a place with a PA and space for 100 patrons and book out of town acts.

The idea sounds great, but in practice it wouldn't work. I already work on average about 60 hrs per week. As an attorney, my clients have to come first. Otherwise, I could be sued for malpractice and lose my job. There are too many days where things come up and I have to stay late. I truly don't have the time to solicit demos, listen to them, negotiate the terms w/ the venue, draw up a contract w/ the venue, negotiate the terms w/ the artist's management, draw up the contract, and to top it off, spend countless hours promoting the show among high school and college students. To everyone it may sound like a bunch of excuses, but I'm not going to be stupid and risk my license, my job, and my personal wealth.

While I would love to do it, I don't half-ass things. I'd rather wait and do it full-time.

Additionally, I don't have the money to do it. As a promoter, you generally have to rent out the venue, then pay the artist their fee. Plus, I'd have to pay fees to register the business and for a business license. I'd also have to take out a large insurance policy. Additionally, if the act has decent management, they're going to require 3 times the advance deposited in escrow when agreeing to perform for an unknown promoter. It's too much (especially when I'm trying to save up money), and the profit margin for succcessful shows is very slim--only about 4 percent. The risk isn't worth the reward. I'd rather bide my time, continue networking, and hope that I'll meet a contact to help me get an interview. Otherwise, I'll just send the resume in anyways.

dannon205, I know who they are. I work with WMA regularly, and I know people who have been hired recently at WMA -- in both entertainment law, and in A&R/management. This is why I'm asking.

I definitely don't want to be an attorney for WMA or CAA. From what I've read the hierarchy for the music dept is pretty much mailroom, assistant, booking agent, responsible agent, and dept head. The responsible agent does more A&R, whle the booking agent just books bands. So yes, my goal is to eventually be promoted to a responsible agent and dept head. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know anyone practicing entertainment law, would just be in the business and legal dept as counsel for WMA.
posted by dannon205 at 3:09 PM on December 2, 2007

Here's my friend J, a promoter, with comments:

I truly don't have the time to solicit demos, listen to them, negotiate the terms w/ the venue, draw up a contract w/ the venue, negotiate the terms w/ the artist's management, draw up the contract, and to top it off, spend countless hours promoting the show among high school and college students. To everyone it may sound like a bunch of excuses, but I'm not going to be stupid and risk my license, my job, and my personal wealth.

While I would love to do it, I don't half-ass things. I'd rather wait and do it full-time.

Additionally, I don't have the money to do it. As a promoter, you generally have to rent out the venue, then pay the artist their fee. Plus, I'd have to pay fees to register the business and for a business license. I'd also have to take out a large insurance policy. Additionally, if the act has decent management, they're going to require 3 times the advance deposited in escrow when agreeing to perform for an unknown promoter. It's too much (especially when I'm trying to save up money), and the profit margin for succcessful shows is very slim--only about 4 percent. The risk isn't worth the reward. I'd rather bide my time, continue networking, and hope that I'll meet a contact to help me get an interview.

I book shows. I don't do most of what you claim. Small promoters simply don't. Negotiating terms with the venue takes five minutes. I've never had a contract with a venue, except when I've rented out a venue for a very big show, a couple of dozen times and the contract's been boilerplate. I have no business license or registered business. I don't know of any promoters who usually book shows of less than 300-500 people who do. Insurance is covered by the venue's normal policy. I wouldn't have any notion of how to even get insurance. I've never paid more in escrow than the guarantee, but I only pay an escrow for very big shows when the band's coming from overseas and needs some sort of guarantee for visa purposes. It's unusual. I've lost money on shows, but that's rare too. My usual take is expenses plus 50-100%, but I've made three times what I've paid out. The profit margin for successful shows at 4% may be so for the Eagles, but it's nothing like that for small venue shows.

I've booked shows since 1988. From twenty to eighty shows a year, more than 600 in all. I've lost money on maybe fifteen. Many of the bands I book are with smaller agencies, but I've booked plenty with the big guys. I've booked acts from Nirvana (early) to Franz Ferdinand to White Stripes on down. I've backed off a bit because I have contracts with a pr firm and a label and don't need the money to make a nice living so much. I am also tired of shows, after twenty years.

You've got to get out there and do something. Wherever you're getting your information, it's unrealistic and won't bode well for you in an interview. The first thing I thought when I read your letter was quit reading Variety, Billboard et al!

I'm happy to give you pointers if you need them, just let me know at [e-mail]
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 5:43 PM on December 2, 2007

To your friend J, please don't take offense to this, but this is not good advice. To begin, w/o registering his business as an LLC, LLP, or partnership, he simply isn't getting the best tax treatment w/ limited liability.

Additionally, w/o an insurance policy, he remains open to having his personal wealth subject to a court judgment. Although he may think that the venue's insurance policy may cover any incident, it may or may not. Regardless, that's only going to cover the insured's actions and any monetary amount rendered in a judgment/settlement against the insured, not him. It is unfathomable for a promoter to not have insurance. Concerts are notorious for having problems. It could be anything from a PA that ignites a fire and kills patrons to a fight or mosh pit that leaves a kid brain dead and in a vegetative state for the rest of his life. In the latter situation, the judgment against the venue will be slim b/c the promoter is in charge of hiring security. Thus, any claim of negligence for inadequate security, negligent hiring and/or supervision of security would all be against the promoter.

Perhaps this is the lawyer in me, but the above situations are not so far fetched to warrant the risky behavior of not having an insurance policy.

Furthermore, while boilerplate is easy and saves time, it's not always the best. Many ppl make the mistake of taking only 5 minutes to negotiate terms. The problem w/ this is that issues will come up that aren't covered by the contract. Having a skeleton contract is a terrible idea.

Again, I don't mean to be offensive. I respect what he's done. I know it's not easy, but these are large issues that I cannot ignore.
posted by dannon205 at 9:42 PM on December 3, 2007