Trespassing hunters

November 18, 2007 2:26 PM

How to deal with trespassing hunters.

Before I begin - please let me state that I am not "anti-hunting" - I have hunted. However, my mom's property extends in a 14-acre rectangle back into the woods, and we've done a good job preserving it as a natural space. It includes a large field surrounded by dense forests where deer like to hang out. My mom loves her deer and feeds them, so there are many deer. Unfortunately, the property is difficult to monitor because it is pretty rugged terrain. Recently, the adjacent 10-acre parcel was split into half-acre lots and sold to to a bunch of other Michiganders, many of whom love to hunt and are pleased to have a nice big forest behind their houses in which to do so. Illegally. Today, we walked the property and found evidence of two treeblinds. We placed additional signs that said, "No Hunting. Premises Monitored. Violators will be Prosecuted."

I don't want people hunting out there because my mom's house has a bunch of windows that face the woods. Also, recently two hunters went tromping through the back yard to recover a kill that had run up by the house. It freaked her out and she called the police, but she's afraid of "making a fuss" because where we live people can get a little... retaliatory. And I can't really enlist the neighbors because I think some of the neighbors are the biggest offenders.

This whole situation vexes me. Frankly, I don't want people shooting guns in the woods behind my mom's house. My mom abhors deer-hunting. The signs don't seem to be stopping them. Ideas?

posted by Baby_Balrog to law & government (32 comments total)

Motion-sensitive sirens. They'll keep the deer away (unfortunately), but because they keep the deer away, they'll keep the hunters away, too.
posted by ten pounds of inedita at 2:31 PM on November 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

You might contact the Michigan Dept. of Natural Resources about it. Maybe they could have a game warden make random checks?
posted by hjo3 at 2:42 PM on November 18, 2007

Fencing/Barbed wire and signs around your property line? It's pretty labor intensive and possibly expensive, though.
posted by chrisamiller at 2:46 PM on November 18, 2007

warning: if you can read this, you have been photographed trespassing on my property. there is no hunting or trespassing here, and this will be enforced by civil and criminal prosecution.
posted by bruce at 2:56 PM on November 18, 2007 [4 favorites]

I'm not sure from reading your post whether your Mom posted her entire property back there or not? In Vermont, and forgive me if it's dramatically different there, it's the responsibility of the property owner to post their land yearly if they want to restrict land use. This means puting up signs along the entire perimeter of the land, signed and dated. It's a nuisance, but it makes clear what the proeprty owners wishes are. Sometimes it's too easy to think that every one of your neighbors shares the same sentiments about hunting as you do. She can put up signs that say no hunting or she can put up signs that say no tresspassing. The latter will be a note to hunters that it might not be wise to follow game on to your mother's property.

Probably, though, your mom's best bet is to go next door and talk to the new neighbors about her concerns. If I were your Mom I'd go light on the "I love my nearly-tame deer" part of it and stronger on the "I like to walk in my woods and while I wear orange I'd be more comfortable if there weren't people hunting there" part. Maybe they can come to some sort of informal agreement. I don't know how old your mom is or what sort of presence she has or where you live or whether you could go with her, but it seems like a situation where if you get the neighbors on your side, at least some of them, that might have a decent ripple effect on the other ones. Good luck, I have dealt with similr issues with people logging on my property and it was stressful and difficult.
posted by jessamyn at 3:08 PM on November 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

Call game and fish (or whatever they're called in your neck of the woods) and see if they have any suggestions.

You can start digging pit traps for hunter hunting, but this will cause more problems than it solves.

I've always thought "Trespassers will be shot" is nice and easy to read, but people will probably start ignoring that unless you are willing to start shooting (to miss, mind you).

Really, there's no way to keep this from ever happening again without spending a lot of money on fencing, and I don't mean just barb wire. Some earth berms behind the house will make your mom safer. In the present situation, your mom's feeding the deer makes this area very attractive to hunters, and some of those deer are going to get killed. If she stops feeding the deer this will cut down a lot on the hunting, but you will still have trespassing issues.
posted by yohko at 3:17 PM on November 18, 2007

as you said, people can get "retaliatory". Do NOT confront them face-to-face, for obvious reasons.

best advice is to call your local DNR office and tell them what's going on. Then, call the sheriff and tell them the same thing. You won't be the only ones experiencing something like this, and one DNR officer I have spoken to in the past had routes setup where they would check up on common poaching/trespassing areas.

and if the tree stands are on your property, feel free to go out there with your crowbar and rip them down.

about the hunters coming onto your land to retrieve a kill, AFAIK, there is nothing illegal about that. I know some states have specific exemptions to their Trespass law for this.

don't count out chrisamiller's suggestion above. Barbwire fence, while it won't keep people out, does serve as visual cue that a property line is there. This is important because the neighbors could be out hunting 'in the woods' and not realize that it belongs to your mother.
posted by ArgentCorvid at 3:21 PM on November 18, 2007

Rereading your question, it seems that you are fine with trespassing as long as people are not hunting. I think it will work out better for you to address this as a trespassing issue, and take the stance that you don't want people coming on to the property at all. And yeah, talk to the neighbors, but it sounds like there are people who are not neighbors doing this also.
posted by yohko at 3:22 PM on November 18, 2007

You can start digging pit traps for hunter hunting...

That is a monumentally bad idea.
posted by Steven C. Den Beste at 3:22 PM on November 18, 2007

Steven C. Den Beste, that's why the next words were:
this will cause more problems than it solves.
Which would indicate that I wasn't saying it would be a good idea.
posted by yohko at 3:31 PM on November 18, 2007

Begin using deer repellent on your property. A couple sonic motion detectors would be good also, but the repellent will not be detected by your neighbors so they wont know to cause you any additional stress.
posted by damn dirty ape at 3:32 PM on November 18, 2007

Or you can use perfume, detergent, etc. Any smell that says "humans be here" will usually drive them away.
posted by damn dirty ape at 3:33 PM on November 18, 2007

In Michigan I am pretty sure you have to post the property line if you want to keep the hunters out, from someone who used to hunt there, but not for many years. After marking the property line, or if it already is, the next step is a fence of barbed wire and calling the sheriff when people trespass on the land - the fence just being a practical deterrent and the sheriff being the real defender. Do not confront someone carrying a rifle by yourself. The chances of trouble are actually minuscule, but just in case, call the sheriff. Get license numbers of vehicles as well. What these people are doing is a crime and you want to collect evidence. As for the treeblinds, destroy them, that goes for any salt licks and corn feeding as well. As for protecting the deer, fire off a few shots at dawn and every hour or so afterwards and there will be no deer on the property for anyone to shoot. Dusk is another time to protect them.
posted by caddis at 3:33 PM on November 18, 2007

A friend solved a similar situation by giving exclusive hunting rights to a local family, in exchange for them helping with keeping other hunters out -- they helped post signs, patrolled the area before and during hunting season, and generally got the word out that the land was "taken." This doesn't protect every single one of the beloved deer, but it does limit the hunting (mostly) to a small group of people who are responsible, safe, and have a vested interest in protecting the land (allowing in other hunters both hurts their chances of getting a deer this year, and makes it likely that they will be refused access in the future).
posted by Forktine at 3:48 PM on November 18, 2007 [3 favorites]

If it were me -- a single strand of wire denoting the property line with the posts painted bright orange and "NO TRESPASSING" would probably do to provide a signal that they're not wanted on your land. Signs can be made relatively cheaply by spray-painting a durable surface... a $50 investment in a roll of sheet tin could last you years if you just re-stencil it.

After it's posted, anyone you see on your land can be prosecuted. I'd get a digital camera with a telephoto lens for your mom -- that way if someone chases a kill onto her land again, she can photograph their faces and turn the evidence in to the sheriff's department for prosecution. Now, 'cuz I'm a total nerd, I'd probably put up boxes that look like they house a camera and hook a battery up to a blinking green or red light inside of them and scatter them around the property. The jig would be up if anyone really took a close look, of course...

I remember in one state I lived in that some people who owned large wooded lots on the edge of the city somehow had their land declared "urban wildlife preserves" and hunting was strictly forbidden on this land. The fine for violating it was fierce -- something like a year in jail. The signs said that anyone caught hunting on the land would spend a year in jail and there was video monitoring of the property. In addition, the property owner had to walk the property line every few weeks and replace any missing signs or any faded property marks, and property marks had to be something specific... I think it was two diagonal fluorescent green paint marks on every visible tree trunk along the property line.

My personal favorite no trespassing sign was "TRESPASSERS WILL BE VIOLATED" ... but I'm not sure if you can get away with that one and have people take you seriously. ;)
posted by SpecialK at 3:56 PM on November 18, 2007

oh, this sounds familiar. I grew up in southwest MI, and my grandparents own a farm there. practically every year, they have problems with unauthorized hunters. (it's good hunting -- lots of forest adjacent to corn and soybean fields.)

I remember my grandfather going out there with his truck and pulling down treestands. that, of course, is not the by-the-book way of solving the problem, but it did get the message across. (and nobody ever retaliated that I know of.)

as far as no-trespassing requirements in MI, a little googling turns up this. See generally.

if you want to seek help, I'd say the DNR is your best bet. This page has info on applicable laws and procedures.
posted by theoddball at 4:19 PM on November 18, 2007

I think barb wire or a fence is really your only really effective option. Signs will probably be ignored, but still a good idea. I would not suggest any sort of booby traps that could kill or injure the hunters, your mother could be in A LOT of trouble if anyone got hurt or killed because of one.
posted by whoaali at 4:22 PM on November 18, 2007

"No hunting: My grandkids play here."
posted by thinkingwoman at 4:31 PM on November 18, 2007 [5 favorites]

With the DNR budget being what it is in Michigan, don't count on much help from that direction, they are terribly understaffed. Post it as no tresspassing, no hunting, and then patrol it morning and evening, carry a cell phone and call the local police if you find someone. Be loud, wear orange, keep your head down....

The real solution is to, somehow, communicate with these neighbors that you feel are hunting on your property, but, you're about two or three days too late for that..
posted by HuronBob at 5:11 PM on November 18, 2007

I believe you said they are hunting illegally. Deal with it as a legal matter. Prosecute each and every infraction. And if they threaten your mother, remember that in Michigan, she has a right to shoot anyone who threatens her on her own property.

"People now will be allowed to use deadly force, with no duty to retreat, if they reasonably think they face imminent death, great bodily harm or sexual assault. They can use deadly force on their property or anywhere they have a legal right to be."
posted by clarkstonian at 5:14 PM on November 18, 2007

Seconding the "my grandkids play here" recommendation and asking the local police for advice.

Anyway, good luck with this. I's pretty messed up that some folks think it's okay to discharge firearms on your property just because it's "huntin' season."
posted by dhammond at 5:15 PM on November 18, 2007

Thanks! Lots of good suggestions here... fyi there are only guns in the house when I'm here - otherwise she doesn't keep them because she's afraid of break-ins and what not (she won't even keep a safe.) I have some JB blanks that I use for flushing geese but really I don't want to confront new neighbors with guns. And the fencing won't work - we've had fencing (for goats) and the deer end up crashing into it and getting strangled (and then I have to bury deer carcasses.) I'll update the signs with dates and the text about being photographed.

14 acres is just too small a space for people to be hunting safely - I'll try to figure out a way to remind the neighbors of this without raising any hackles.

Also - we do tear down the blinds that we find.

Thanks again for all the suggestions!
posted by Baby_Balrog at 6:01 PM on November 18, 2007

Most hunters really would prefer not to hunt on private property where they're not welcome. The problem is most likely arising because the hunters either don't know where the property line is, or else they don't know that the landowner would prefer they not hunt on the property.

Clear, frequently placed signs are the second-best way to handle these problems; fencing is certainly the best. If you know who is doing it, including your neighbor who's allowing hunting near your property, it's certainly appropriate to let them know what the problems are and what your expectations are in terms of resolving them. Don't go into reasons ("the deer are so cute; hunters are murderous scum; I'm afraid of stray bullets";) just stay polite and on message ("I don't want hunting going on on my land, thank you.")

People who continue to violate after those steps have been taken are criminal trespassers. That is for local law enforcement to handle, just as any other crime.
posted by ikkyu2 at 6:01 PM on November 18, 2007

Also, the town cop is an avid hunter and is more interested in busting kids for smoking pot than he is in stomping through the woods to arrest hunters.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 6:03 PM on November 18, 2007

So you marked "no hunting, my grandkids play here" as best answer. I have to say, this likely will have no effect whatsoever on the jerk hunters. I know these guys. That will just cause them to shoot at your dog. Those guys are trash. Go with the non-emotional, commonly seen, warning signs so that these cro-magnum types never have to engage their frontal lobes. --- Logic. Property posted. Move on to the next land to hunt. Emotion? Isn't that my wife's job? -- You don't want to engage these folks. Just keep them away.
posted by caddis at 6:22 PM on November 18, 2007 [1 favorite]

Trying to keep the deer away with strange scents and ultrasonic devices will most likely not stop the hunters from hunting. If anything, it will make them become more active in their search for prey.

I will add another recommendation on the pile to call the DNR. If by hunting 'illegally' you mean out-of-season, then they'll definitely want to hear from you. Often there are reward systems in place for people who turn in poachers.

I don't know what the laws are like where you live, but this was printed in the 2007 Minnesota Hunting and Trapping Regulations Handbook:

Trespass is the most frequent complaint landowners have against hunters. Trespassing is illegal and can ruin hunters’ and the DNR’s relations with private landowners. This could in turn hamper habitat programs, cut off land access, and possibly eliminate the future of hunting in many areas of Minnesota. Always ask permission before entering private land. Any entry onto the private property of another without permission is considered trespass. Landowners may be able to pursue court action against trespassers whether the property is posted or not. If you are caught trespassing, you may be issued a citation and assessed a fine under civil penalties, and repeat violators can lose their license or registration. Or, if you are convicted of violating trespass laws under criminal procedures, you may lose your hunting privileges for up to two years, lose hunting equipment, and be subject to fines and possibly a jail sentence. All DNR conservation officers and all other licensed peace officers enforce trespass laws and may issue a citation to a person who trespasses in violation of the law or who removes a sign without authorization. A summary of the Minnesota Outdoor Recreation Trespass Law begins below.
Restrictions (See below for exceptions, definitions, and
posting requirements)
• A person may not enter legally posted land for outdoor recreation
purposes without
permission.
• A person may not enter agricultural land for outdoor recreation
purposes
without permission.
• A person may not remain on private land for outdoor recreation purposes after being told to leave.
• On another person’s private land or a public right-of-way, a person may not take a wild animal with a firearm within 500 feet of a building occupied by humans or livestock without written permission.
• A person may not take a wild animal with a firearm within 500 feet of a corral containing livestock without permission.
• A person may not take a wild animal on any land where the person is prohibited from lawfully entering by this law.
• A person may not wound or kill another person’s domestic animal, destroy private property, or pass through a closed gate without returning it to the original position.

Exceptions
• A person on foot may, without permission, enter land that is not posted to retrieve a wounded animal that was lawfully shot, but may not remain on the land after being told to leave.
• A person on foot may, without permission, enter private land without a firearm to retrieve a hunting dog. After retrieving the dog, the person must immediately leave the premises. This exception
does not authorize the taking of the wild animal.

Like I said, I don't know what the laws are like where you live, but some of the basic ones tend to be pretty ubiquitous.
I think the thing that always works best in these situations is Forktine's suggestion about giving some friends or family members exclusive rights. If it's during the season, they will most likely have a chance to meet face-to-face with one of these people and a boundary will be clearly established. Keep in mind that most hunters loathe people like this and are more than happy to help make sure these things don't happen.
posted by Demogorgon at 8:11 PM on November 18, 2007

I live in the woods and I know people who can "get a little retaliatory". You are not in an enviable position. I nth that the property should be legally posted (though even the act of posting land people are acustomed to hunt can piss them off), and that having your neighbors as friends is much, much better than having them as enemies
Please hear the following as a further attempt to answer the question and not as a criticism: feeding the deer is not good for the deer. Ask most wildlife biologists. I know your mother gets a lot of pleasure from feeding and seeing them, but she is doing them no favors, and is, in fact, harming them. Also, perhaps if she didn't put out food for the deer, this problem with hunters, shooters and trespassers would abate.
posted by Hobgoblin at 9:22 PM on November 18, 2007

Just to be clear, my last comment only related to the jerk hunters. Most hunters are like most people, respectful of others and even more so when they know that they are hunting on someone else's land. There are some guys out there though of fairly low ethical standards. Since the hunters on your mom's property are already hunting on posted property this does not speak well about them.
posted by caddis at 7:20 AM on November 19, 2007

Based on personal experience, the type of hunters who ignore "No Hunting" signs will also set fires if you take effective measures to keep them out. Their attitude is "I've always hunted everywhere, and no #$%&* outsider has the right to say different."

I'm afraid that if your mother wants the house in the country, the hunters come with the territory.
posted by KRS at 12:18 PM on November 19, 2007

the town cop is an avid hunter

I'd suggest rethinking your idea about this guy. A cop is generally someone who is really committed to upholding the law. If he is truly an avid hunter then I guarantee he understands the issues involved here. He probably understands them better than you do.

I bet if you talked to him you'd find an ally - cops understand property rights, it's not something they've never heard of before - and he might even have creative suggestions that would be appropriate to your local community and would help you feel better about what's going on.
posted by ikkyu2 at 5:34 PM on November 19, 2007

KRS - we've lived on this land longer than anyone within 20 miles. My mother doesn't "want a house in the country," - she wants the new arrivals to respect long-standing traditions.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 10:31 AM on November 21, 2007

I'm late to the game, but just wanted to empathize with you. We have that problem with some family land. I've made numerous suggestions to my dad about how to stop it, but this is what he always reminds me:

That trash [the hunters] came with the land, just like the trees. There's nothing you can do about it. They have no problems coming on your land, and they'll have no problems destroying your stuff if you try to keep them out.

posted by coreb at 8:56 PM on November 25, 2007